Ackerman Takes a Fresh Look at Old Foe Lira’s Ideas

[Addendum: I misread the date on Lira’s piece — his blog is not one of my regular stops on the Web —  and it turns out that it was written a year ago in August, not last month as erroneously noted. As readers may have surmised, however, that does not weaken or change my argument.  Nor would I claim that it weakens his, notwithstanding the fact that a prediction he made  more than a year has not panned out.  There is a lot of ruin in a global financial system, and although it sometimes seems as though ours may be no more than days from collapse, we all know how even terminal economic dysfunction, like lung cancer, can persist without producing the expected result. RA]

With deflation tightening its choke-hold on the global economy, we thought we’d drop in on our supposed nemesis, Gonzalo Lira, to see how he has been coping in these very un-hyperinflationary times.  To his credit, the erstwhile arch-inflationist, bending to reality, has acknowledged forthrightly that deflation rules the economic and financial worlds right now. “Yields are  low, unemployment up, CPI numbers are down (and under some metrics, negative) – in short, everything screams ‘deflation.’ ” He wrote those words a month ago in an essay entitled How Hyperinflation Will Happen, and although we are obliged to point out certain dangers in relying too heavily on the scenario he describes, readers should trust, as we do, that he has gotten the big picture right.  He asserts, for one, that economic recovery is no longer remotely possible for the U.S.  We agree. Nor, as he makes clear, is it a case of double-dipping into recession, as most economists and the mainstream media would have it;  as Lira flatly states, we never emerged from the first recession. The inevitable result, he says – and again we concur — is that an epic financial panic centered on the dollar’s collapse is coming, and it will push the U.S. from intractable recession into full-blown Depression.

As to how we might prepare for this, Lira has his ideas and we have ours. Possessing physical bullion in any form will be a part of the solution no matter what, as he would undoubtedly agree. Where we part company, however, is on the crucial question of whether any of us will be able to respond defensively, let alone advantageously, once the avalanche has begun.  While Lira talks about shifting assets from paper to real goods as hyperinflation plays out, our fear is that the dollar’s complete destruction will occur so swiftly – think May 2010’s flash crash, but on a global scale – that there will be no chance for anyone to liquidate intangibles (to whom?) in order to replace them with real goods. For all we know, the world’s bourses will be shuttered for a week or longer, diverting angry mobs to branch banks whose vaults, as the mobs are fated to discover, hold precious little cash.  Under the circumstances, it’s possible Americans will have no opportunity to get money out of banks, or cash out of stocks, much less catalyze a hyperinflation by shoveling dollars from who-knows-where into Lira’s short list of defensive assets: “residential property, as well as equities in long-lasting industries; mining, pharma and chemicals especially, but no value-added companies, like tech, aerospace or industrials.”

‘Burp’ Starts a Panic

Despite our concerns about the speed of the collapse, we think Lira’s description of how it is likely to trigger is not merely plausible, but riveting.  Since a summary would not do it justice, we’ve supplied the link above  In brief, however, he believes that a panic out of dollars will begin with a price “burp” in some essential commodity such as oil. A nervous market will seize on the idea as never before, turning it into a flight from U.S. paper and currency. Lira has imagined the entire collapse in such vivid detail that we expect most readers will find his scenario not merely plausible but compelling.   Still, some unanswerable questions will remain, including how securities regulators will react.  Will they quell the panic too quickly for events to play out as Lira has predicted? What if the commodity exchanges raise margin requirements to 100 percent as soon as panic hits? That would shut out nearly all players save those with cash.  Come to think of it, where would that cash come from – and what would even constitute “cash” in our totally digitized financial system?  Also, if the hedgies can somehow get their hands on piles of cash after miraculously liquidating stocks into a collapsing market and having their trades settle in just a day or two, how much of that cash could they deploy in commodities, given that lock-limit rules would effectively bar all but a lucky handful of bidders from getting aboard?

These are not niggling questions, but rather the reflections of someone who has spent quite a few years in the trading pits.  Now that I have raised these issues, perhaps more such questions will occur to you when you read Lira’s essay — critically, as you should.  The point is not to cut him down, but to help readers understand that it is impossible to predict with confidence how a hyperinflationary panic will play out.  Because of this, even diligent hoarders of physical gold and silver should not be comforted by the notion that they possess the “ultimate hedge.” While ingots, Maple Leafs, junk silver and such may prove to have been the best possible defense against financial Armageddon, there’s no guarantee that these tried-and-true investables will not be decimated in the interim by the increasingly powerful deflationary forces that are presently asphyxiating the world’s financial system.  And if gold does plummet, only to reverse course with a vengeance at some point thereafter, there’s no reason to think it will be easy to convert the metal, even priced astronomically in dollars, into farmland or other assets high on the pyramid of hard essentials.

We’re All ‘Ruinists’

We want readers to understand nonetheless that, despite any public disagreements we’ve had with inflationists in the past, we view the theoretical distance between us as slight. We are all of us Ruinists at heart, after all, and it is not the imminent, smoldering, wreck-of-an-economy that we see differently, only the path that takes us there.  If we have come to “see the light” of the hyperinflationists’ logic, it is through the realization that hyperinflation doesn’t need a push from rising wages or prices to occur — only the looming epiphany of the dollar’s worthlessness. At that level, and even though we still believe a hyperinflationary spike will only fleetingly disrupt an otherwise ruinously deflationary decade yet to be endured, we have no meaty bones to pick with Lira, or Gary North – or, even, with the volatile Jim Willie, whose work we have always enjoyed. Although they reacted with glee – and in one case, sadistic pleasure – when we wavered briefly in our steadfast commitment to deflationist arguments, we must concede that Lira had good reason to pounce as he did. (Our wife, with a Masters Degree in Speech and Rhetoric, told us the day after that our essay had more argumentative holes than a wheel of Swiss cheese.) But if Lira and other hyperinflationists are to be frank, they will need to acknowledge that there is no predicting the course of the coming crash, let alone the very crucial matter of whether the dollar’s plunge into de facto worthlessness is likely to occur in an hour, a day, a week, a month, or perhaps even longer.  Such details will ultimately matter, of course, and greatly, but we should have no illusions about handling them advantageously once the Day of Reckoning arrives.  Since the collapse could begin as soon as…TODAY!!,  now is the time to get ready.  On that note, we’ll leave you with a link to the book that we consider the best work on preparedness, Sean Brodrick’s The Ultimate Suburban Survivalist Guide.

***

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  • mava September 30, 2011, 6:53 pm

    Excuse me, Mario. but apparently we have a different understanding of freedom.

    You said that the chicoms can easily :
    2. Allow or not allow 2nd mortgages to anyone,
    3. Allow or not allow you to buy a property in a province in which you do not live or are not gainfully employed or have a business.

    This is freedom to you?

    This is why you were wrong:

    You suggested that the US Govt can easily fix some economic issues, if only it does what the chicoms do (named items for instance). But the US already has it’s own un-freedoms, many of which you pointed out yourself.
    Since US is not completely unfree nation, it still manages to keep some people interested. Once it becomes completely dictatorial like china, then why, for gods sake, would anyone want to live in US or hold a dollar?
    Secondly, if you were right and the government unimpeded intervention in economy could fix things, the the North Korea would be most economically powerful nation, not China, not USA.

    Thus you believe, that the government, in principle, can control economy with positive results, better that any degree of freer market. You believe, that when govt thugs prohibit me from taking second mortgage (your version of freedom, not mine), that an economic issue is solved. Therefore, you have absolutely no trust in free market. Therefore you think that it is not that the stupid enough bank should take the hit, if they issued to me a second mortgage when my fundamentals didn’t allow any, but that the smart government should disallow the bank from issuing any second mortgage to me.

    If I am correct here is spelling out your beliefs, then you should have not move to China. Our own, US Government tries really hard to replace free market with the dictature of idiots and community organizers. You basically believe in government run economy, USSR style, or China style, doesn’t matter, and you therefore argue with Mises with regards to any central planning economy being worse of to begin with since it has no mechanism of measuring relative value of things from each person’s point of view.

    What scares me, Mario, is that apparently, you don’t understand what is freedom. To you, if government allows you to do something, then you have a freedom to do it.

    To me, I only have a freedom to do it if government can not possibly prohibit me from doing it, no matter how much it wants to or how much “the motherland might need that to be prohibited”.

  • Chris T. September 27, 2011, 3:18 am

    “…the “free Tibet” stories without questioning their veracity and authenticity? You don’t know that the Chinese gov’t has poured hundreds of millions …”

    One can certainly argue that the metrics show the place overall being better off than if Tibet had always been independent.
    But, metrics aren’t everything.

    WHO is better off in Tibet now?
    The Tibetans, but also the huge, huge influx of non-Tibets, mainly Han, into the region.

    It is really for them that this is being done. The ultimate plan is ethnic/cultural genocide, but not in the 20th centuriy model.
    There is no need to physically exterminate, time and nature do the trick.

    The best example of this can be seen in what happened to the many and diverse ethnic groups across Eastern Europe of Hungarian or German background, esp. in Rumania and the form. Yugoslavia.

    Sure those groups demise was hastened by actual physical repression, esp. in the once German parts of Poland, the former Czechoslovakia, etc.
    But where that wasn’t to completion, where did those cultures go? They just imploded by being overwhelmed by the other societies, they were absorbed.

    Perhaps the Native American reservation is like that too.
    A great, and non-coercive, example, other than by long-implemented policy and honey can be found in SoCal and the American south west: it is slowly being reabsorbed by the southern neighbor.

    It is this development, driven by purely demographic factors in that instance, that is also threatening to the psyce of the state of Israel, and drives much of its policies: The Israeli-Arab population will outnumber the Israeli-Jewish population by 2:1 within one generation or so.

    So, whatever causes such changes, in Tibet it is a planned approach to getting rid of Tibet, and making it just another geographical part of (Han) China.

    As to the destruction of monasteries, forbidding the language, etc:
    Just visit any part of eastern Pmmerainia, west /east Prussia, Banat, and try to find the cultural signs of the german population there:
    language, churches, cemetaries, etc.
    Those places look just like Poland, Rumania, etc.

    So, yes, Tibet is not free, even if the people living there now, enjoy the trappings of modernity.

    • mario cavolo September 27, 2011, 10:04 am

      You bring a very interesting perspective to this issue Chris, especially since you included aspects of it with respect to European history too. In America, it happened to the native Indians but I can point out that in China there are several well-formed and established non-Han ethnic groups (like native Indians of America), besides Tibetan, the Mao and Li and Naxi who are mostly found in provincial southwest China (yunnan, guizhou, sichuan). Many of their locations have been designated protected World Heritage sites, I think mostly to promote tourism to those areas. Cheers, Mario

    • Robert September 27, 2011, 7:06 pm

      The topic of culture lends a very interesting facet to the concept of personal liberty, because culture is the product of common individual mindsets that eventually transpires into a collective sovereignty; and ultimately compromises and marginalizes the power of the individual mind, and corrals self esteem and contains it within the confines of a sterilized and moderated national esteem.

      Then come borders- barriers intended only to preserve the power of a collective (ie: state) over its members (citizens), and to ensure that the common attributes of that society (perceptions and appearances) are held sacred and above the personal liberty and freewill of the culturally indoctrinated within those borders. Those from outside this commune who do not maintain such allegiances to the collective are only welcome by the explicit permission, not of the electorate, but of the high Caliphate that “represents”, and therefore enforces, the cultural “norms” that the vistor must relinquish themselves to.

      After borders come skirmishes; as borders must be acknowledged by the collectivist groupings on either side in order to be valid: otherwise one colllective must actually erect physical barriers (like fences along hundreds of miles of barren Sonoran Desert) to prevent “those” people from interfering with “our” version of utopia and societal bliss.

      Meanwhile, the only fact and truth that exists above all this abstraction is that we are all human beings- Homo Sapiens. Our brains all work the same way. The same biochemical reactions trigger all of our individual neurons, and we are all constrained only by the immutable laws of physics that define our reality…

      I guess what I’m saying is:

      It is seemingly true that birds of a feather flock together…. But in the eyes of the Universal consciousness, the only relevant question can be…..Why?

    • Chris T. September 27, 2011, 8:58 pm

      Robert,

      Aprreciate the juxtaposition of culture and individuality / personal liberty.

      In the way you put it, it’s hard to argue with that, if one does not want to give collectist rule too much any justification.

      But, humans beings are socail beings, and one of the things that enables us is language. That is by definition a collective venture, and I do not believe it to an abstract notion. Certainly the ability to acquire language is biological, while WHAT language that is is not. It is the latter which is be defniition collectivist.
      It is perhaps possible to create a non-existing lanuage, in the way Tolkien did, and then to have an infant be a native speaker. Without the collective, what would be the point? In in order to teach it, other’s mastery is required.

      Your example of the morphing towards collectivism and borders is correct, you only address it in terms of the visitor (stranger) into the collective (the norm) and that norm imposing its terms.

      What I was referring to above is the norm imposing its norms on the stranger, where the stranger’s culture is actually the norm, in other words, collectizing the conquered into the invader’s group, in one way or another.

      I think that differes. In Tibets case, we may have one of the least outwardly berdered off societies, that was neither aggressive nor expansionist for most of its existence (don’t know its history well enough for all the time admittedly). The society didn’t need to impose those boundaries you mention, nature had done it for them. Internally, as you paint it, it may have been just that way in Tibet too, given the strong role/rule of the clergy.

      One last point, and not meaning to be divise:
      It is clear from human domestication of certain species, esp. horses and dogs, that breeding can lead to specific traits in various subgroups.
      Compare a general purpose hunting dog, to a sheep-herding dog, or to guard dogs, etc.

      While humaninty hardly unterwent such planned breeding, geographical segregation, lack of mobility for most of our history, natural adversities, etc can have the same result.

      That then will lead into something of a natural (as opposed to the artificial construct which I read in your comment) collective.
      Do those differences obliterate the commonalities you metion? Of course not, but at the same time one can’t say they do not exist at all.
      Of course, the differences are not valuations along a better / worse, or worthy/worthless continuum. Doing that is definitely a construct.

    • Robert September 28, 2011, 4:47 am

      Hi Chris-

      Very Salient points.

      Regarding Tibet, I believe that their balanced, non-expansionist lifestyle is EXACTLY the reason for their impending undoing.

      The 3rd law of thermodynamics (one of our immutable law of physics) states that perfect, sustainable harmony is impossible. At the moment a system reaches it’s maximum tranquility, entropy simultaneously begins increasing. In other words- the closer we get to perfection, the more we increase the likelihood of destruction.

      Solace can only be taken in the fact the out of all chaos arises an underlying order, and this order provides the pixels that begin forming the image of a new brand of increasing stability.

      We will come out the other side of this crisis. Maybe Gold will again be the basis of money, maybe not. Maybe borders will still exist as they do today, maybe not.

      The question is- can we (the species) recognize, understand, and comprehend that Gold, faith in government, and borders are NOT worth killing each other over….?

      The lesson is so simple- but can we learn it?

    • Robert September 28, 2011, 5:09 am

      One other point that I think ties all this “culturalism” and “collectivism” talk together.

      That point is Darwinism.

      As Chris accurately points out above- the social nature of communities (of any species) eventually leads to genetic commonality via selective breeding (the example of domesticated animals is apt)-

      Humans also demonstrate that they are not above these natural processes. The African persons’ skin, the Asian person’s eyes, and, seemingly, the white persons’ penchant for perceived superiority, all seem to be products of local population collectivism gone awry.

      But, whereas Darwin’s theory is elegant in its description of this dynamic, what humans have done with this natural attribute is, to me at least, downright appalling; for humans are the only species known who use Darwin’s simple premise as a rationale for genocide against their own.

      The German/Aryan prejudice, the Spanish Conquistadors, The Japanese in WWII China, and yes, even the Colonial Americans against the Native Americans…

      In all these cases, one group of people felt that their “natural superiority” justified the extermination of the “lesser humans”.

      I can think of nothing uglier.

  • Steve September 26, 2011, 8:15 pm

    When Clinton was part and party to the roaring 80’s federal debt was financed short term and long term 30 year debt gotten rid of as short term interest rates plunged.

    The fed is now going to purchase 30 year bonds to keep their price down as they lock in long term all time historically low 30 year rates.

    Would seem to indicate short term rates are going to rise not too far in the future.

    • Chris T. September 27, 2011, 3:25 am

      Their historic playing field was the short term end.
      They are now expanding that to the long term end, and have been for a while, but does that imply an ABANDONMENT of the manipulation (which is what the FOMC-set “rate” really represents) of the short end, or simply an expansion of the overall practice of the Fed?

      No reason to think that the Fed sees any reason it can’t just tinker in all parts of the maturity structure.

  • Robert September 26, 2011, 6:52 pm

    Gold has swung around in a $135 range over the past 18 hours… Stable market price discovery mechanisms in action-

    Courtesy of that last bastion of “free” markets on Earth: The US Federal Reserve system….

  • C.C. September 26, 2011, 5:53 pm

    As to what we can reasonably ‘predict’ – and what we cannot:

    – If you live in the U.S., look at the habits and trends of your government over the past ~40 years. Do you have more freedom and liberty, or less?

    – During this same time frame, look at what your government has done to the value of its currency. Has it increased against history’s standard of value (Gold)? What about your purchasing power with said currency – for a fixed basket of staples, can you purchase more today with $100 than you could 10/20/30/40 years ago?

    – With what you know and understand about how our government functions; how our currency is on a steady downward trajectory towards its intrinsic value and how much freedom you have lost since 1970, how much confidence do you have that our elected leaders along with a compliant, dumbed-down and dependent electorate, have the will or the means to keep the nation solvent and not debase the currency sufficient to pay down debt and quite possibly ignite a panic out of the U.S.D. somewhere along the way?

    If there ever was a ‘Screaming’ chart, it would be the trend of predictability – based on near 100% accuracy of what governments do when they become unmoored from their Constitutional anchor.

  • Big Don September 26, 2011, 4:55 pm

    Half the USA is living partially or totally off various entitlements and benefits. You can’t have hyper inflation unless folks have the money to pay hyperinflated prices. Don’t really see the gov’t hyperinflating the the *benefits*…

  • Farmer Tom September 26, 2011, 4:41 pm

    One of the more notable outcomes of a financial panic and hyperinflation is the rapidity with which citizens turn to barter as they cope with a currency that is unwinding.

    Having nothing of value to trade during a crisis is simply not an option. At every point along the path of a financial breakdown you need to be prepared with tools, space and inventory.

    You need, in other words, the means to become part of the productive economy again. The part that actually produces needed and essential goods on a day to basis or the skills to fix that which is broken.

    Society will not cease to function just because our coin is being debased into worthlessness. There will instead be a great shift from dependence on others to meet our needs and a greater requirement for self sufficiency.

    Business’s will suffer badly as expected as variable costs rage out of control. How will you afford their services at such a time? What skill, trade or goods can you exchange to meet your own needs then?

    I think this is why a major part of preparedness means keeping your practical skills fresh and ensuring you have the tools to meet the needs of others. It also means having a healthy store of quality goods on hand that might serve as currency during a crisis.

    We need to consider very seriously that during a hyperinflation imported goods will simply stop flowing into the country. Bad news as pretty much everybody else (think China, India, etc) makes the things we take for granted on a daily basis and there is very little manufacturing done domestically that might offset the shortage of imported goods.

    A near collapse of inbound shipping seems assured as the currency falls to worthlessness. Being ready to barter will be key to how successfully you thread your way to the end of the trauma.

    You had better be ready to produce goods again too.

    • Robert September 26, 2011, 6:47 pm

      Yes, I very much agree, Tom.

    • Farmer Tom September 27, 2011, 4:09 am

      Thanks Robert. I think it goes without saying that during a true hyperinflation that millions of America’s lost jobs would come flooding back home again.

      That will be when we discover why we sent those crappy blue collar, low-wage menial jobs overseas in the first place. That was horrible work. It was essential too.

      It is also when we will come face to face with a whole new reality.

      That we did indeed squander our futures with a consumption based model for an economy and that we truly spent well beyond our means. Enjoying the good times at our own expense and not that of the nations who actually did the hard work and the heavy lifting to produce most of our basic needs and goods.

      Will the end of the credit bubble not them manifest as a new bubble in social discontent and anger as we finally face the errors in our own judgment? I suspect so. and that is a huge worry.

      If the nation defaults…..then we have bankrupted and lost everything. Including our pride..

  • stolp September 26, 2011, 3:16 pm

    Mava, “bankruptcy prisons”….. what is this: George Orwell meets Charles Dickens? You don’t think there aren’t enough people in the gulag already, and at HUGE taxpayer expense? Also, if any of these “Ruinist” scenarios come down, you’ll be talking about not less than 40% of the country being bankrupt……… Now if you want to put the guys running the system that has failed and put so many normal working folk at risk, well, that might be something I’d consider! ;-))

  • wyatt paul September 26, 2011, 3:13 pm

    But surely Lira wrote this not a month ago but 13 months ago. He ends by saying his denoument will happen this Fall (2010) or next Fall but in any event by the end of 2011 !

  • Corxi September 26, 2011, 3:08 pm

    Lovely debate here in the comments. I have avidly reading your posts. I disagree with John that the military is going to keep the US safe, it’s either that or the oil flow will be reduced to a trickle. Regardless of Rick and Gonzalo fighting, my opinion is we are going to hit severe inflation rapidly, even though we are now experiencing deflation, the money supply is increasing dramatically by the day, therefore more currency chasing the very same goods. Let’s forget, for a minute, about the stock exchange plunging. People will still need to eat and move around, the tipping point will be triggered by a large event and that will ignite inflation. On an even more general note, I trust history. Whilst we don’t really have a past benchmark even to compare the current situation to (because Weimar wasn’t global), 5000 of PM as money is enough for me to rejoice in the fact I have only an operating balance in the bank. Realise PAPER is the disease, that can be multiplied just like Jesus did with bread and fish. PM=discipline, no more debt, work save, build a capital, then invest.

    • Andy September 26, 2011, 7:26 pm

      Where is all this currency floating around? The Treasury prints the currency, NOT the Fed. All the Fed can do is try and create credit, which its tried to do in the last few years.

      Hyperinflation is all about the value of paper mony going down, forcing the Treasury to issue it in larger denominations. I see no evidence of this happening, now or in the future.

      I do see a massive deflation of Credit, the Fed notwithstanding.

      Andy

    • Chris T. September 27, 2011, 3:35 am

      Andy,

      Antal Fekete more than once has pointed out that there could even be a bifurcated cash/money situation:
      digital money
      real physical paper money.

      On top of the difficulty, as Rick has pointed out on many occasions, of getting the freshly printed paper money into circulation is the general abhorrence in the US of “added zero” bills.

      So, while it is easy to hperinflate the physical by printing 10x 6/9/12etc bills, how easy is that when the $100 is the largest denom?
      Impossible even when printing 24/7 everywhere.

      So, at least conceptually “real” old bills can actually gain value, do to something they never had before:
      a limited-supply value.

      And just to put a little conspiracy spin on that:
      Could THAT be the reason, that cash transactions of all sorts have been made more difficult, neigh practially banned in some cases, everywhere?
      To force us, in one way or another, to have access ONLY to the digital?
      The one that can definitely be “printed” at 10xY rates…

  • Nigel September 26, 2011, 2:59 pm

    Don’t mean to knit pick but Lira posted this thesis 13months ago.
    Mike Maloney has the correct call: we’re in the real deflation phase now which will be followed by the hyperinflation as described UNLESS the governments of the world acquiesce to calls from Rick Perry and others that debasement of the currency through the printing press is Treason. Should that happen and the presses fall silent then its straight to the bottom in a deflationary death spirrrrrrrrrrrrral. What a nightmare.

    • Carol September 26, 2011, 4:47 pm

      Being that Rick Perry is an insider/elitist/Bilderburger, if he is calling for restraint you can bet that is “the plan”.

      With most all commodities skyrocketing over the last few years everyone (most everyone) has been on the inflation/hyperinflation side of the boat so the trap is nicely set.

      I have been of the belief that deflation was the ultimate plan for many years now. The Masters of the Universe use deflation, and have used it many times throughout history, to both buy up all the worlds assets on the cheap as well as the institute their other insideous agendas. But they knew they could not get away with “allowing” deflation to happen. That is UNLESS the people actually wanted that outcome. So they accomplish their agendas like they always do – Helganian dialect! If you want a certain solution create the actual problem that will lead the people to demand your solution!

      BUT you say the people do not want deflation to happen – really? Are there not food riots happening (instigated by CIA no less) where the people are begging for affordable food. Are the people not rising up now demanding some spending/bailout refrain? To get the people to want this outcome they had to first create the problem (too much money being thrown around) to get the people to DEMAND an end to it – and allow their desired outcome, deflation, to take hold.

      Yes you can call me a conspiracy theorist but would much rather attribute my views to the fact that I am a student of history.

    • Robert September 26, 2011, 6:41 pm

      Agreed Carol-

      If things were not proceeding according to the “plan” of the Bilderbergers and Trilateral Commission, then they’d be having far more frequent unscheduled meetings, etc… right?

      The world economy is going only where the the will of the productive wish to take it, and no amount of bureaucracy, currency debasement, adminstration, political election, or “trileral commisioning” is going to compel the productive to continue being productive, or to start being productive again once they choose to stop. Only incentive can inspire productivity, and waving wads of currency in your face, when you are fully aware that it will not purchase as much tomorrow as it did yesterday, is not incentivizing…

      The productivity trend is down. This is not deflation. This is economics.

      What do we work for? As Mario pointed out:

      We work for more laws.
      We work for more regulations and other barriers to productivity.
      We work for more toll booths on our roads.
      We work for higher taxes.
      We work so that politicians can dine on $16 dollar muffins (google it)

      We work to imprison ourselves, while the prisoners don’t work, and yet they have guaranteed meals, warm shelter, television, Internet, and basketball; and all they have to do in return is accept that those 4 walls are the physical limits of the known Universe.

      In a prison, you are free to be as stupid and unproductive as you wish….

      So why do the productive even continue working? Clearly because the productive are even more stupid than the prisoners.

      We toil to serve the incarcerated.

    • mario cavolo September 27, 2011, 3:53 am

      Robert! I’m reading Bertrand Russell’s In Praise of Idleness…as he points out, often its the people with money who figure out how to get people without money to do all the work for as little as possible! 🙂 And then they try to instill societal ethics as to imply to the workers that they should want to work!

    • redwilldanaher September 27, 2011, 6:02 pm

      Yes Robert, and they are arresting protesters on Wall St. while the real criminals stroll by basking in having gotten away with it yet again. So much for “constitutional rights”. The Police state marches on.

  • Avocado September 26, 2011, 2:12 pm

    China and others sell goods to the United States and get paid in dollars. Do you really think they are going to try and sell those dollars as fast as they can, thus driving down their value to the point where we can no longer afford to buy their goods? Import prices go up if the dollar goes down.

    How does this work, again?

    How do the BRIC’s win this if the dollar collapse continues indefinitely?

    And what happens to ALL that debt denominated in dollars that nobody can pay back with anything other than dollars? I’m assuming some will try and pay back the debt rather than default.

    Andy

    • mario cavolo September 26, 2011, 2:26 pm

      Andy…exactly….dozens and dozens of as yet unknown adjustments and choices will be made along the way, including threats, by govt’s all over the world, in response to any particular asset class going too far out of whack, starting with the USD. Of course, no matter what happens and IS happening, plenty of folks getting screwed along the way one way or the other…

  • Kid Salami September 26, 2011, 10:55 am

    I just did a search on this page for the word “debt”. No hits.

    It is in my opinion simply not possible for the value of gold, silver, oil and other hard assets to drop below some floor, as this implies increasing value of the dollar, which is what the debts and assets of the banks are denominated in.

    Short term sure, I’m reenacting the vomit-scene from Team America vis a vis my bullion holdings. But how much longer before the markets and banks collapse? The asshats in charge won’t let this happen – they will see everyone else starving before not taking their own salary, and politicians need an army of stormtroopers who also have to be paid – they will print and pass the problem to the next asshat next year. I just do not see a sustained period of deflation in our future for this reason.

  • mava September 26, 2011, 7:44 am

    I am not happy that these two are fighting. Good night everybody, except Mario (Good morning to him, I guess).

  • mava September 26, 2011, 7:42 am

    Mario,

    But if US follows China, and turns everyone into simply a farm animal (not that we aren’t already) with no rights, then China wins that same day, for what would keep anything here vs. china?

    Who died and left the government to allow or not allow me something? Of course this is how it is in every GULAG.

    • mario cavolo September 26, 2011, 8:24 am

      Ok Mava, this time I’ll bite…

      …like China, turns everyone into a farm animal…? With no rights? This is baseless rhetoric. Several points:

      For example, you believe the “free Tibet” stories without questioning their veracity and authenticity? You don’t know that the Chinese gov’t has poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the Tibetan province just like any other province to make it a much better place for anyone living there? You actually believe they are all complaining about that?

      Second, at this stage in the global society progress ballgame, I would suggest rather easily that a Chinese citizen has more practical daily rights and faces less control and regulation and criminal laws than a U.S. citizen. Freedom of the press?…half an argument at best as the PC bias in American media is also a strict form of censorship of freedom of expression. Safety on the streets? MUCH higher in China…isn’t that a valuable feeling of freedom?

      Third, try this on for size: be a guy: struggling and unemployed with a wife, a 4 year old and an infant: Because you need to survive which includes you and your wife needing to get around the neighborhood and find odd jobs to make any money possible, and because your kids need to get to school, you own a cheap old 125cc motorcycle. Alternatively you own two old rusty bicycles. You NEED to put your wife, holding your infant child on the back of the motorbike and you stand your 5 year old on the front.

      Try THAT back in the states and tell me the result? Tell me EXACTLY the result? Do you really know? Who has more freedom? Who owns your children? Where would you summarily end up, in America the land of freedom? Jail for negligence. Where would your kids end up? Foster care. Your parental rights stripped, your kids gone.

      Fourth, the Chinese govt has lifted more people from poverty to middle class in a shorter period of time than any other country in history ever…that’s a fact and you can reference articles in any major business periodical including Forbes, WSJ, etc…and that fact is only the tip of the iceberg. Can you not allow yourself to get a grip on the fact that life in China for a larger number of people (about 30% of the population), certainly not everyone, has improved drastically, dramatically and measurably…don’t ask me, ask the people PACKING the malls with more cash than EVER, half of which is in the gray cash market and so doesn’t even really exist.

      Fifth, every country, whether you, me, JJ, Rick or anyone else wants to fantasize about it otherwise, needs AND has a government to run it. Always is and will be. There is no point in having idealistic discussions of whether we do or do not wish to have a govt telling us what to do. Society, people, as a group, naturally create a smaller group to govern, guide and lead.

      Them screwing it up, or doing it poorly, for a variety of reasons we are all familiar with, is a completely separate matter.

      Sixth, back to the topic of doomsday; Rick will accuse me of being too confident that decision-makers will make the decisions needed at the time they are needed to prevent such a thing as a USD collapse. We’re living in Bak’s sandpile, its far too neat and easy to predict a USD collapse…

    • Larry D September 26, 2011, 4:36 pm

      Since freedom of the press is a half an argument at best-

      How about free worship,

      free assembly,

      and free elections?

      Authoritarian states across history have boasted how safe their citizens are, how cheap the gasoline is, and visitors go home to tell how all the trains run on time.

      I don’t believe the Tibetans invited their benefactors, any more than the Koreans invited the Japanese. Imperialism by any other name smells as phony.

    • mario cavolo September 26, 2011, 4:58 pm

      Hi Larry, I know those issues run both ways but to clarify and set you free my friend there IS free worship…shock of shocks…I attend Sacred Heart Catholic Church in Pudong ( you can go type that in and go to the website to see for yourself, its not blocked 🙂 ) , along with about 3000 other people every Sunday. The priest gives classic boring homilies, we receive Communion, we even go to Confession if we want. Ah, there are even infant baptisms and Couples for Christ programs! I know this surprises you. There are four other Catholic and three other Protestant churches in Shanghai alone, not to mention a synagogue in the lovely old Jewish settlement area up on Sichuan Bei Lu. Stop believing what you read in the West about what goes on here inside China. Its mostly rhetorical biased nonsense…

      …back to the topic, China is in no position to let the USD do a nuclear meltdown. There are plenty of switches to flip if, when and as the time comes to flip them to prevent such a thing. Again though, that doesn’t mean lots of folks aren’t going to get screwed along the way as they have been at the hands of the elitists…

      Cheers, Mario

    • Aprov September 27, 2011, 12:17 am

      Super Mario, we meet again, but as before your arguments are total nonsense. You’re saying people in China have more rights? Are you nuts? No one in their right mind could possibly praise China for the way it is, certainly not the Tibetans under the guns of Chinese soldiers, nor the Chinese men summarily executed with a bullet to the back of the head for crimes unspecified.
      I do understand, however, that your business interests in China may be influencing your judgement. I just hope that your so-called communist friends never confiscate your assets one day — and they may well do that. Regards!

    • mario cavolo September 27, 2011, 3:48 am

      Aprov, your deeply biased and distorted view and lack of understanding are unfortunate. I have zero warm and fuzzy supportive feelings for China, and not much more for the U.S. as I have watched what that country has become for the worse. I recognize that in every single one of them has a the list of pros and cons. The observable, measurable facts are the observable facts. The overall state of society in China has never been better, and for the U.S. has never been worse. It pisses all of us off, hurts a lot I know, but don’t shoot the messenger.

    • Aprov September 27, 2011, 5:02 am

      Super Mario, I’m not shooting any messenger, and it’s you who is distorting the facts. As usual, you’re rants are bizarre. The U.S. is a dynamic country under stress, but it’s day is not over. The world thought this about the U.S. in the 1930’s, but things got better. The Germans made a similar mistake with U.S. resolve in 1944 at Bastogne, and yet a small group held out against overwhelmimg odds. The current generation will do likewise, because it’s in their nature to do this. They know no other way. The United States is a vibrant and dynamic country. Btw, I’m a Canadian and have many friends in the U.S. My friend, have a nice day, and take heart! This is not the end. Regards!

    • mario cavolo September 27, 2011, 9:53 am

      Aprov, a strange reply from you; you need to make up your mind what issues and what country you are focusing on here.

      First you say my comments are bizarre, well they are accurate, regardless of whether you think they are bizarre. What exactly is bizarre? That in America if you put your child on the back of a motorcylcle, Child Protective Services will take your child away or that in China, they won.t? Which is bizarre. What is bizarre, that the banker bosses created and allowed a trillion dollar sub-prime swindle in America while, first, none of them ended up in jail, second, none of them had to give back any of their millions, and that if the same thing happened in China, yes they would get a bullet in the back of the head? Which is more bizarre to you?

      Secondly, you go on to make comments about the U.S., a topic we were not debating. It seemed you were lambasting me for noting anything positive about China, not unusual for someone who doesn’t live here and see the directly observed reality. In doing so, you summarily ignored the facts of daily life and reality in China which I simply present and inform, not argue.

      On the subject of America, good and bad, I am not much different than most here on Rick’s forum, we see the parts of America that have declined and, more so, we see too clearly why those parts have declined, which could be summed up as poor, greedy leadership and self-serving politicians and bankers, pharma, lobbies, oil… However I also happen to be a person who consistently says here that all is not miserable in the U.S., that the idea of a USD collapse is ridiculous, and that the lives of 150 million or so Americans are in fact better than ever. Its the other 100 million former middle class Americans who have been raped and pillaged across most every aspect of their lives. Meanwhile, the question is up in the air how well the country can possibly bounce back from the elite banker/politicians pillaging the financial / banking system, as they have. All the patriotic American goodness one might muster is no defense against the elite bandits of the banking industry and Wall Street who have rigged the game for themselves…Cheers, Mario

    • Aprov September 28, 2011, 1:35 am

      Oh my goodness! Mario, I was going to give you the last word, but …
      Firstly, you wrote that I need to, “make up [my] mind what issues and what country [I’m] focusing on here” because “[I] go on to make comments about the U.S., a topic we were not debating.” Well, you’re talking about China and the U.S., and I followed along. Didn’t you write, “The overall state of society in China has never been better, and for the U.S. has never been worse.”
      Secondly, your comments are not accurate and represent the POV of one person. I say your comments about China are bizarre, because they are at variance with what has been widely reported by many who have visited and lived in China. Consider the anti-Chinese POV of those who report on Chinese oppression of Tibet, Churches and human rights. The net is filled with “facts” from thousands of people who’ve lived there. Very few of them agree with you. As for the average person being better off, well, maybe if you live in the cities and have a job, but not for the majority who live in the countryside in third world conditions. The two China tale is well known. As I understand it, Chinese ruler ship lives in fear of a second revolution in the country side. You don’t simply present the facts as you suggest, but argue them to suit your own POV – as everyone does. So, yes, you do argue.
      Thirdly, I don’t disagree with you that the leadership of the United States needs to be reformed, but so too do the attitudes of some of its citizens. Many have lost some measure of economic status, because of greed and financial miscalculation. You wrote “the other 100 million former middle class Americans who have been raped and pillaged across most every aspect of their lives.” Really? I’m not seeing that at all. Raped and pillaged? I don’t think so. People who managed their money and worked hard at their jobs have for the most part been able to maintain themselves. There are of course those who through no fault of their own have fallen on hard times, but the number is not 100 million. Are these some of your facts? What’s the source? In any case, the current economic problems can hardly be pinned on one small group of people – bankers and politicians. Everyone through their actions has had a hand in it.
      Fourthly, you wrote “All the patriotic American goodness one might muster is no defense against the elite bandits of the banking industry and Wall Street who have rigged the game for themselves”. I disagree. I believe the U.S. ship will right itself, if they can muster their resolve again. Patriotism and selflessness plays a part in this. Of course, if the U.S. succumbs to your negativity, it won’t. Perhaps that’s why you and many others have used your skills in China for their benefit and not ours? Perhaps our economic situation would have been better, if many like you had stayed here to bail water?
      Finally, you wrote “It seemed you were lambasting me for noting anything positive about China”. Well, my apologies if that’s how it seemed. In a simple word or two, I disagree with much of what you’ve written. Regards!

  • mava September 26, 2011, 7:36 am

    John Jay,

    Withdraw military, build fences, and then what? The problem of the whole world in in US! Take US out and the wold is going to recover immediately. So, then how is fencing ourselves in is going to help us? Who are we going to scam?

    The US is a monster size leach on the belly of a cow that is the rest of the world (I except Russia here, because they are just the leaching contender). If we were to dissect the leach, the hunger part of it is the government. It is the reason for everything dark, bad, and collapsing, not the American people per se. But, in not dealing with the government, the people too are supporting the evil.

    If anything the only thing that could help us is getting rid of everyone on government payroll without exception and confiscating ALL their property, followed by a trial. Then opening the borders and removing such thing as citizenship and welfare, and establishment of strict contract law, bankruptcy prisons, gold money and enshrinement of private property on everything, followed by abolition of the eminent domain. This may give us a chance, our people are not any less capable than any other people. After all it was America that moved the world before, and it can do it again, just cut off this leach.

  • mario cavolo September 26, 2011, 7:32 am

    ….a relentless constant dribble of non-stop selling in gold and silver all day long today…

    Meanwhile, I must say that while I know these doosmday arguments are stimulating and should be respected, I continue to not buy them. I am glad I am now reading Walter Isaacson’s must-read biography of Einstein; relative motion, rest, space, time, all groovy and amazing insights that remind me of my belief in the relative nature of asset classes. Also, I think Lira and Rick do perhaps underestimate the decision that can and will be made at the actual times that particularly difficult events occur. In this regard, I suggest the Chinese govt are now the masters of the universe. I am NOT a sympathizer or cheerleader, I am an observer who seems them doing their damn job, making economic policy decision as needed swiftly and aggressively to keep the society in balance and under control as much as possible without asking the citizens if it might be a bit inconvenient to them. For example in the property markets, if they are running too hot or too cold, here is what they do, without stalemated, wasteful committees to hold things up:

    1. Raise deposit requirements from 30% to 40% to 50%
    2. Allow or not allow 2nd mortgages to anyone
    3. Allow or not allow you to buy a property in a province in which you do not live or are not gainfully employed or have a business.
    4. Cancel or reinstate 5 year capital gains taxes to either encourage or discourage selling.
    5. Cancel or reinstate or increase or decrease other taxes and fees to encourage or discourage selling.

    Subnote: If the bank officials here ever pulled the kind of “sub-prime stunt” as occurred in the U.S. pillaging the U.S. and world economy; the bank bosses who are somehow still in place at those same banks still collecting outrageous millions per year, would instead all most likely have been executed and it would be on the front page of the newspaper. Ask the mayor of Shanghai.

    I digress: a USD collapse discussion is a great stimulating, intelligent, respectable discussion but not much more, the world societal and financial system has no historical comparables to judge and analyze. We are living in Bak’s sandpile…

    Cheers, Mario

  • mava September 26, 2011, 7:22 am

    I totally hate it when some of the people I like to read get in fights with one another. I read and enjoy both you, Rick, and Lira!

    I long held that it makes no service to lie to a friend. If he gets pissed off and breaks off, – so be it, but at least you won’t be the one to add to his problems.

    In your case, Rick, I will say that while you have shown a whole lot more restraint, gentleman manner and wisdom during your encounter with Gonzalo, I do not find your arguments to be particularly strong. He wins on an argument, but loses in the way he held himself. I attribute this to his age. You are never afraid to say you were wrong, and that, my friend, is a priceless quality in men.

    In particular, you keep referring to some grandiose deflation. Through reading you a lot, I have realized you are ALWAYS talking about PRICE DEFLATION. Now I wish you’d state that every time you mention deflation, because there is no monetary deflation in fiat money system and can not be unless desired to be. I take it that a lot of folks do not realize your definition of deflation and thus do not understand you, like Gonzalo for instance. There is no such thing as “cost-push inflation”, nor “wage-push inflation”, it was not clearly explained by Rothbard or Mises, but it was chewed out by George Reisman in “Capital, Treatise on Economics” (free download, btw).

    It is also very confusing when you anticipate something and base it on deflation vs. inflation, or worse, hyperinflation terminology, because that absolutely makes no sense. Since you mean price deflation, how can it be used in the same context with the other two? Price inflation? May-be, but that in itself is not a recipe for disaster! Price hyper-inflation? Again, without monetary hyper-inflation, price hyper-inflation is a problem the size of a fruit fly.

    Example: Gas, or rather price of it at the station. Did we experience deflation or inflation? The price of gas in real money fell, while the same in FRN Game Points skyrocketed. So, are we talking about deflation, hyper-deflation, inflation or hyper-inflation here?

    That being said, Gonzalo obviously doesn’t have years of experience and wisdom you have when it comes to technical forecast. One can take your HP to the bank, where’s Gonzalo’s product? SSP? Paleeassee!

    For some reason, the people who are really good at something always fight. Instead of joining minds and forces to overcome the dark overlords, there is this constant malinvestment of emotion. I wish Gonzalo would tone it down. That’s my observation for today, damn it.

    • Steve September 26, 2011, 8:04 pm

      Please tell me what happened to the 16T that the fed gave to every bank and every foreign corporation without so much as a demand for interest, or repayment. Where are the numbers from the house behind me that was at 700,000.00, and is now at 200,000.00 all the while illegitimate accounting says WHAT?

  • Rich September 26, 2011, 7:03 am

    Nice dose of reality Lira, Rick & JJ:
    Long and strong Financials, RUT, SPX and sold Bonds and Dollars for a spell: FAS, QLD, TBT and TNA for now…

  • Don September 26, 2011, 6:57 am

    Fully agree with your hypothesis for our survival with one missing ingredient.
    We have no leadership in this country and until we escort the B….&….B….. out we are stuck. It can’t be done by voting them out.
    Then we can rebuild very quickly while the military keeps the vultures at bay until we re-emerge as New Sparta, smaller and much more efficient.

    • AndyB October 1, 2011, 10:35 pm

      The military will back those in power, not the people. I wish it were otherwise, but indoctrination is a powerful weapon.

  • John Jay September 26, 2011, 5:27 am

    We all agree if the Dollar goes Weimar, there will be serious consequences. I am betting that Europe and Japan will go down before we do, and flight to safety will buy us some more time. Japan’s radiation problems from Fukushima are not going away, and China is starting to rattle sabers in that neck of the woods as well.
    Europe may be in worse financial shape than us (other than Germany) and that situation should play out pronto. If there is a global collapse we go from financial to geo-political solutions overnight. We still have the trump card of our huge military machine. If push comes to shove we could have our military abandon Japan/Europe and let them deal with Islam/China/Russia on their own. We could easily mend fences from Mexico to Tierra fel Fuego, Canada secures our northern border. That would leave us with half the planet as an independent economic unit. Granted, it would be messy and take some time to rebuild a manufacturing base and a new currency, but we still have options, especially if we are forced by circumstances to act in a ruthless manner. If we do nothing and Mad Max happens I have no idea of specifics, but there will be some sort of warlord creation in the power vacuum that results on a local and eventually national basis. Depends on what resources the old US government can muster to retain control.
    I am betting it won’t come to that.