Gun Control Isn’t the Answer

The  only response to a child’s grave is to lie down before it and play dead.”

Bill Knott, poet.

[This commentary has elicited more responses than anything previously published on the site. I’ll leave it up over the weekend to accommodate final thoughts and summations. RA]

The shooting rampage in Connecticut makes any other topic seem trivial at the moment. When America gets back to business on Monday it will be with a heavy heart and the bewildering feeling that we are powerless to do anything about such violence, now or in the future. Those who advocate gun control undoubtedly believe their cause is just.  But they might as well be talking about banning automobiles to save what remains of the world’s coral reefs and glaciers. For even if it could be done, and even if carbon emissions were the undisputed cause of the problem, it is already too late.  Better to adapt than to tilt at windmills.  To suggest that gun control is the cure for rampages like the one that occurred on Friday is to avoid confronting the real problem: civilization itself is mentally ill. And for that, there are no easy cures — certainly not outlawing certain types of weapons.

Could it get any worse than the mass murder of twenty first-graders?  Unfortunately, and tragically for humanity, it conceivably could. We shudder to imagine what horrific event will eventually overshadow the unspeakable carnage that took place at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Twenty children, none older than seven, were murdered where they sat, each shot repeatedly by a high-powered rifle. Six adults were slain by that weapon as well, some of them in the heroic act of shielding the children.

Arm All Adults

Better that all of the adults should have been packing heat. Many of you, perhaps most, will vehemently disagree with this statement. I fully understand and respect your point of view. How could more guns be the answer, right?  But just as we cannot realistically deal with climate change by trying to control or reverse it, we cannot deal with crazy gunmen by attempting to recall tens of millions of guns already “out there.”  No gun-control law under consideration, even a law that would seek to confiscate virtually every firearm in America, would have prevented Adam Lanza from doing what he did. Nor will even the most draconian gun laws prevent a heavily armed psychopath from surfacing at some point in the future. Scotland has some of the tightest gun control laws in the world, but they didn’t stop a killer from fatally shooting sixteen 5- and 6-year-olds and their teacher in 1996.  Nor did Norway’s equally stringent laws prevent Anders Breivik from murdering 69 people, mostly teenagers, on Utoya Island two summers ago.  The rifle and two pistols Lanza brought with him to the school reportedly belonged to his mother, but it appears he could have passed a detailed background check himself.

Personally, I have delayed getting a concealed weapon permit for too long. Groupon has a $69 Denver offer, and I’m going to take it, along with 30 hours of range practice. I’ll let my wife and sons decide for themselves whether they want to join me.  But an armed citizenry alone cannot hope to prevent the Adam Lanzas and Anders Breviks of the world from succeeding. More than merely being armed, each of us will need to put in long hours at the local range.  And it will probably take more than one of us to bring down a homicidal crazy like Lanza, armed as he was with a semiautomatic rifle and trigger-happy unto death. Let us prepare to do so nonetheless, even as we seek a better solution.

***

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  • Zimbette December 30, 2012, 12:47 pm

    When the ATF and the military of the USA under the Chief, Bill Clinton, attacked citizens and murdered 53 adults ( including 2 pregnant women) and 21 children, it was the second time in Bill Clinton’s presidency that he had attacked and murdered citizens of the USA. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a87_1349120025
    Months before the attack on these citizens he had attacked and killed a child and a woman at Ruby Ridge. Randy Weaver finally won millions of dollars from the USA citizens, (not Bill Clinton), for the wrongful attack on his property.
    And yet the citizens of the USA honor the mass murderer, Bill Clinton.

  • Jack Russell December 26, 2012, 3:18 pm

    for anyone spraying facts about, thinking their within context, do yourself a favour and read this link..
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/308269/1/
    and just like markets, you may find your comparing apples and orangles a fair percentage of the time, and way of the mark…
    Bigger picture…the flexions are running the world, and have the inside run, we as traders must deal with this, or stop trading until the problem is resolved. If you can help to resolve this, even fairer play to you. A world where everyone is packed with a gun , because they don’t trust a sole in probably no ones idea of utopia thats the buts and bolts of it. Further dinner party responses work best in such forums, many it seems don’t believe that is the case.

  • redwilldanaher December 25, 2012, 12:28 am
  • Jill December 23, 2012, 10:12 pm

    “Five thousand seven hundred and forty children and teens died from gunfire in the United States, just in 2008 and 2009. Twenty more… were killed just last week… The overwhelming majority of those children would have been saved with effective gun control. We know that this is so, because, in societies that have effective gun control, children rarely, rarely, rarely die of gunshots. Let’s worry tomorrow about the problem of Evil. Let’s worry more about making sure that when the Problem of Evil appears in a first-grade classroom, it is armed with a penknife.”

    (My own comment: Of course an ordinary criminal could still get a gun. But ordinary criminals do not go into schools & shoot kids. Criminally insane people do.)

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/the-simple-truth-about-gun-control.html

  • Jill December 23, 2012, 9:13 pm

    Good points again, Cam.

    As for the “Constitutional” argument, it is just bs & can be used to justify anything. It’s one of those “Even the Devil can quote Scripture” situations. The Supreme Court sided with the “Citizens United” (Talk about an Orwellian name) & decided that outright bribery of Congress & the president– with secrecy about who the donors are– is the same thing as “free speech.” Since then, it is obvious to anyone objective that the “Constitution” argument for or against a position is ridiculous.

  • Jill December 23, 2012, 7:41 pm

    Of course your sources claim my facts & sources are incorrect. My sources claim your facts & sources are incorrect too. So in the end we will each believe what we want to. It seems to be necessary that we each get very angry at each other about it & mystified that others don’t agree.

    And we feel absolutely certain that our own tribe’s views will be proven right over time. I know I feel that way. I think that once semi-automatic weapons are banned, there will be fewer instances of insane people walking into public places with them & mowing down a bunch of people too quickly for anyone to stop them.

    I guess all this adrenalin we are working up must make us feel alive & vital. Because it is not doing much else. Not much real communication– in the sense of exchange of ideas & consideration of new ideas– is taking place.

    Happy Holidays, Everyone.

    • Chuck December 23, 2012, 8:24 pm

      everyone should just line up and return their assault rifle’s that they paid good money for…..oh and also their ammo.

      right Jill?

      good luck with that one. NRA has the money and the 2nd amendment. but hey, the constitution is a ‘living and breathing’ document right?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 23, 2012, 9:05 pm

      The Second Amendment belongs to everyone, Chuck. Not just the gun lobby and the NRA. Do you actually think it was drafted into law for the benefit of a small minority of the American public and never be left open to wider interpretation?

  • KS December 23, 2012, 6:57 pm

    Just as I thought, I shouldn’t have responded above. As always you failed to address the actual facts, some of which were presented. Another round of conjecture.

    Jill – Missed my rebuttals to your facts and sources? And, correct, I do not use twitter, read Fox, or care for what it’s owner thinks. Nor do I care for politics in any shape or form. The obfuscation of truth through a circus of parties, their “standing”, is real. They make you pick one or the other, instead of forming your own opnions.

    Mario – You haven’t waken up anyone. Before you call me “one of those guys” with a “horrible and stupid way to live”, please realize, I live in one of the most restricted gun zones in the USA. I do not feel horrible or stupid. So if you have an image of a bearded loner in a cabin in Montana, erase it. I do not follow any religion nor can recite the Bill of Rights. I am also most likely much younger than most of you.
    I see the degenerates walking on the streets of NYC every day, and I form my opinion on the matter from personal local experience, as well as multiple confrontations witnessed and being a part of. Check the level of police presense in NYC and the crime statistics. Or is it the “exception to the rule” again?

    Cam – It is not impossible to reason with “us” at all. It is just that you bring up these terms again “extremist elements”, “debate”, which all stem from the MSM. I formed my views on my own, and I have no idea what is being discussed at this time elsewhere. I provided a link, which outlines FACTS with references to sources. All I have seen above from you people is links to OPINIONS of people/organizations/publications, which obviously have an agenda. And they quote sourceless “facts”, which have been addressed above to be incorrect.

    This is most likely going to be the end of my participation in this discussion, and I will try hard not to get baited to respond.
    Me, Benjamin, Jacques Redou and redwilldanaher are most likely very different people, with very different lifestyles, but we have a similar opinion. All of us have tried to present facts and the world history seems to support our view.

    In the end it will most likely be escalating further, and you pro-ban people will most likely get what you want. Reason is always in the minority. That is what the rule of the masses is all about.
    Just remember this conversation, and revive it in your head in 5-10 years. We will have new statistics, to see who was right.

    Best of luck to all!

  • Jill December 23, 2012, 6:17 pm

    Good points all, Cam.

    Interesting how different sources have different gun “facts.”

    http://guncontrol.org.au/

    It is also interesting how one might decide to consider WHO the NRA is, before jumping up to agree with them. The NRA is essentially a marketing organization & government lobbying organization for gun manufacturers. Of course they want more guns in schools– & everywhere else in the U.S. & the world. Probably they think that each person should own 100 guns. Their job is to market guns & to lobby the government, in order to make the selling of all kinds of guns legal & easy.

    But our job as citizens is not to market guns. It is to do our best to safeguard our society & our children so that people have a reasonable amount of safety & the opporunity for the pursuit of happiness. Getting rid of all guns would not be reasonable, because hunters should have guns & people in dangerous areas should be able to defend themselves. But keeping semi-automatic weapons legal, so that it is quite easy for any insane person to buy some & then go into a school & quickly mow down 26 people, is in itself insane.

  • Jacques Redou December 23, 2012, 6:14 pm

    Comment:
    “I just read the commentary from the NRA whose best idea is to post armed guards in each school classroom. The morons behind that proposal obviously know nothing about one of the basic truths in life……. and that is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

    Armed guards will only invite violence against children and their schools while doing little to offer genuine protection. The preposterous thinking in that camp shows just how desperate they have become in rationalizing a position that is flawed to its core.”

    Answer:
    Armed Police are ALREADY in the Schools. They were not put there by any ‘camp’. They are put there because the cops were being called to the schools daily. The students can’t behave. It had nothing to do with any firearms debate.

    “Although there are no available figures documenting the current number of police officers patrolling school campuses in the U.S., it is clear that schools across the country have begun to deploy police on school grounds in growing numbers. In 2004, for example, studies show that 60 percent of high school teachers reported armed police officers stationed at their schools, and in 2005 nearly 70 percent of public school students between the ages of 12 and 18 said police officers or security guards patrol their hallways.

    Frequently referred to as “School Resource Officers” or SROs, the police on school campuses are often sworn police officers employed by local police departments and assigned to patrol public school hallways full time.”

    http://www.modelsforchange.net/newsroom/84

  • Jill December 23, 2012, 8:38 am

    KS, it must be wonderful to be so correct in your beliefs about everything. Sigh… Why doesn’t everyone just agree with you all the time?

    Murdoch did say that, as you can see in his Twitter stream– unless that’s another source you don’t believe.

    Dem & Repub parties obviously are different from one another– or else most folks on this site would not be able to keep being 100 times more critical of Obama than they were of Bush.

    • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 10:14 am

      This is my same issue with these guys Jill, they are 100% right and that’s the end of it. Its disgusting to see the violence and death their position allows without any sense of context in response. We should all be armed, that’s their only ” I have my rights” answer. My God, what a horrible and stupid way to live. They think they can protect themselves from a govt and military that may turn on them, they don’t have a chance. They think they will stop a govt from committing mass murder and genocide if they decide to, they can’t and won’t. And they refuse to accept the misery of the truth in that. Then they badger me thinking I’m dumb enough and ignorant enough to back down from their lunatic fanatical stance “the right to bear arms” in 2012, the context of today’s world! How sad. I’ve done my best to wake them up. Now may they and their guns leave me and my family alone please.

      Cheers, Mario

      Cheers, Mario

    • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 10:41 am

      Violence and death in OUR position? Defense is not violence, Mario. That belongs squarely with the offender, not me. And yes, that is the truth. We espouse it becase the lie would lead to us to greater of what you claim to not want. Rape doesn’t just go up in Sweden because it wants to. It does so because women there can’t even have pepper spray. And you think they like it that way up there, or anywhere else where the rule of government intentionally makes life miserable? They do it because that keeps people going to them, hat in hand, to beg the government to steal more from them.

      Truth. All I care about is the truth, Mario. And go rule of government ever succeeded with a free, armed populace. So no, I won’t budge and give your view any merit. Why should I do that for the force of evil?

      You are who you are, Mario. You believe in helping people like Satan believes in God.

      And now, I leave the forum for good this time. You and the other imps can have your run of the place, say all you want, without me calling you out on it.

      Have fun.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 23, 2012, 2:50 pm

      It is impossible to reason with some of these people, Mario. I will certainly agree with that. If anything it only indicates how the extemist elements in US society have hijacked the debate and their continued implied threats to wage civil war if they don’t get their way only reinforce my conviction that they need to have some of their rights to bear arms restricted.

      I just read the commentary from the NRA whose best idea is to post armed guards in each school classroom. The morons behind that proposal obviously know nothing about one of the basic truths in life……. and that is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

      Armed guards will only invite violence against children and their schools while doing little to offer genuine protection. The preposterous thinking in that camp shows just how desperate they have become in rationalizing a position that is flawed to its core.

      I very strongly encourage action be taken while this tragic event is still fresh in everyones mind. Any delay will only weaken the opposition. Clearly the public and majority of Americans are on side with expanded controls and the recent surveys back that assertion.

      The presidents hand is strong on this issue. Lets get on with it. Perhaps he can begin with calls to restict lobbying of certain organizations and put firm limits on levels of funding for political campaigns.

      Just a thought.

  • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 8:38 am

    Beautifully stated at the link

    …..you extremist pro gun advocates are a bunch of idiotic irresponsible lunatics because you refuse to accept looking at the matter IN CONTEXT. You’re so far from being right its horrifying, you want more death and that’s what you will get with more guns.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/im-just-not-ready-to-accept-that-we-have-to-have-mass-shootings-all-the-time-2012-12

    • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 9:08 am

      Mario,

      For someone not looking for a fight (your words, above, to Wayne) you sure are sticking around here for an awful long time, posting yet more inflammatory opinion than any basis in fact. Funny how you can come up with links for that, but none containing any solid data or recorded history.

      And if your earlier “happy holiday cheer” was indeed authentic, why aren’t you off celebrating the holiday?

    • Jill December 23, 2012, 9:13 am

      Thanks for that link, Mario. I appreciate the article & find its points to be excellent.

      Of course it won’t change anyone’s mind here, since nothing ever does. People’s opinions all boil down to how scared & angry you are, which political tribe you belong to & your tribe’s beliefs & approved news sources. Tribal approval is far far more important than truth to humans.

    • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 9:58 am

      Getting past your purposeful bile, Mario, it seems your source does have some numbers. But what do they mean? How can there be perspective — i.e. context — without comparable numbers? I’m more than happy to go over them, one by one, and show that they mean nothing…

      “The “Second Amendment” was written 220 years ago when 3.9 million people lived in America and the most powerful guns available were single-shot flint-lock muskets. ”

      As I pointed out before, there were no differences in U.S. shooting rampage deaths between the 19th century, the later decades of the 20th, and now. Link to that info was already posted a few days ago. It’s in table form and easy to sort by year. Check it out.

      Fact is, the most common outcome in shooting and melee rampages is 6. Fact is, gun attacks do more injuries than kill people. Over half ended in 6 or less deaths. Same as melee attacks in China (which probably aren’t much different than anywhere else.

      You can see all that on the link I provide so many days ago. Order it by numbers by clicking on that collumn.

      “It’s true that guns don’t usually kill people unless they are aimed and fired by people, but guns make it much, much easier for people to kill people.”

      Not according to comparable data. And since melee rampages in China are probably about the same as anywhere else (human potential to do harm with hand-weapons), with the most common outcome being 6 deaths, and U.S. gun rampages matching that, it is pretty safe to conclude that guns aren’t any more deadly. All they offer is range and velocity.

      “About 10,000 people are murdered with guns every year in America, and another 17,000 kill themselves with guns”

      And again, El Salvador, number one in gun homicide (2009), with 50/100k, to the U.S. 4/100k. And who says it can’t get lower from more ownership and carrying? Where are the numbers that illustrate (not merely say) that that wouldn’t happen?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

      As for suicide, what matters that they use a gun in the latter case? I thought we were talking about violent crime, not violence in general.

      “~700 accidental gun deaths in America each year”

      People cannot have accidents? Those are illegal now? Even if they were, what do those, like suicide, have to do with violent crime, the only real thing for society to worry about?

      Every other point contained in that disingenuous hit-peice is pure opinion. There aren’t even any numbers to them, let alone comparable numbers.

      Well, there it is. It didn’t even justify your name-calling and little victory dance. Nice one!

    • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 10:07 am

      Its a reasonable position Ben. Its important. Its not emotional and its not a fight. Its just reality as I see it, clearly, as I am stating it, perhaps with some emotion and passion, but not as much as you think, with awareness and concern for myself, my family and the societies in which we all live. And yes, extreme views are dangerous to society. None of which changes Happy Holidays to all, Mario

    • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 10:12 am

      I ask again… If it doesn’t provide comparable numbers, how can it provide perspective, ie context, and therefore be reasonable?

    • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 10:14 am

      I asked that because if you’re going to go around calling people lunatics, you damn well better provide a _good reason_. Otherwise, knock it off.

  • Jill December 23, 2012, 6:51 am

    Wow. Even Rupert Murdoch wants to ban automatic weapons. Maybe because he is from Australia, which had its violent crime go down after enacting gun control laws. So suddenly there is one corporate lobbying organization that Murdoch no longer lavishes 100% support on, the NRA. Amazing. Also amazing that he believes, unlike many people here, that the government could do something right– even a government dominated by Democrats. I am stunned.

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/12/how-will-rupert-murdochs-fox-news-handle-gun-control-152078.html

    • KS December 23, 2012, 7:27 am

      It seems that for the most part you guys on that side are more confused in your presentation as well as your facts, as well as generally disinformed. You operate the “accepted” terms and ideas, which tell me there is no way we could discuss the subject matter, as we aren’t even on the same level.
      1. Bringing in the word “Democrats” is the first clue. If you haven’t realized the insignificance and the illusion of the “2 party” system, all other points will be moot to your comprehension.
      2.Getting your information from Politico is strike #2. At least don’t embarass yourself by quoting them here.
      3.Automatic weapons are already pretty much banned. Class 3 NFA items. Cost, rules and the paperwork are prohibitive for any regular person. Another mindless offtopic media debate. Read the guide I posted above.
      4.Australia didn’t have the amazing decrease in viloent crime after their ban, as they want you to believe. Read the guide I posted above.
      5.Whatever Murdoch believes about anything is irrelevant, nor does it carry any more weight that what I believe. Uhmm, Fox? One of the branches of the government machine?
      6. The fact that what you wrote, “stuns” you, or evokes an actual emotional response is another reason we will never speak the same language.

      All together you post was so off point, that you reminded me of Gary. Just putting up some irrelevant things on what someone else thinks. Start thinking for yourself, stop reading MSM, open your mind, consider all facts, and form your own opinions.

      Sigh. I probably shouldn’t have responded, as it will fall on deaf ears anyway.

  • Jacques Redou December 23, 2012, 6:02 am

    Quote from Mario:
    “But its more safe and secure, that’s the trade off and its terrific to sleep at night knowing that no matter what there will not be a burglary in your apartment complex while you are sleeping because there are security guards 24/7”

    Hey Mario:
    Is your security guard on your Christmas list?

    • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 7:30 am

      Yes, but not for Christmas. In China, all manners of service workers are treated with gratitude via tips and traditional Chinese hongbao (red envelopes) as a cash gift. Some families would give such show of gratitude to their apt garden security guards. Such behavior also comes from everyone understanding that everyone is on quite a low salary, so it is appreciated. Prices of everything are higher during the annual Chinese New Year holiday period, with unfortunately some businesses gouging customers to take advantage. Everything has its good and bad side.

      Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 7:32 am

      sorry, typo in first sentence Jacques…..during the Chinese New Year season is when such tips and hongbao are given….so, similar to our western Christmas and New Year season….

  • Benjamin December 23, 2012, 5:59 am

    Well, this long week has been… What it is. So here are my final points to say about it…

    Some here confuse the resistance of government to that of law. But, we pros are not against the law. We’re very much aware what the rule of law is, and we don’t spit on it. Government is not (supposed to be) the law. To illustate the difference as clearly and shortly as I can…

    I wonder if anyone here recalls the 1993 seige in Waco, TX, and what had percipitated that series of events. I haven’t looked into that until now. Seems the only “crime” the ATF was there to kill for was the Branch Davidians’ possession of restricted weapons. According to the backstory, the Davidians were not in any way a threat to anyone. Except, as perceived by the United States federal government, the United States federal government. But the Davidians did not seem to have been planning, much less carrying out, an insurrection. And whatever one might say about how the BD’s lived, it certainly did not justify killing infants, children, and minors in a fire. Nor, for that matter, any adults.

    That is what happens when the government is viewed and acts as the law. People die for no other reason than to appease government’s own power and security. And it happens in so many ways, all over the world** and that probably would appall the die-hard statist-types here, if only they would remove their own blinders and “safety helmets”, and either think for themselves or listen to what so many here are telling them.

    ** Be it Swedish women imprisoned for pepper spray, a Brit who goes to prison for fighting against home invaders, an Aussie who can’t even expect a cop show up in response to crime (that has no definition as such, but is)… That is what happens under the rule of fear, or in other words, the rule of government.

    The rule of law, that is, free people, _is_ the safer bet! Government only cares about securing itself, for itself, and not one iota, in _practice_, about anyones safety! It is not “crazy” or “lawless” or “stupid” or “scary” or “dangerous”… to see, grasp, and stand and fight for that. The certainties under the rule of government don’t compare to the risks that are inherent in a free society. It is far better to deal with the risks of the disorganized wolves — the unexpected crimials and crazies — than the voracious, organized variety. And that is what people from all over the world are telling us, in their own words and experiences what the rule of government is like: It SUCKS!

  • KS December 23, 2012, 4:49 am

    To Martin Schnell #2:
    Everything you have mentioned is exactly the reason, why people who see the above points in your post, choose to keep their weapons/understand their importance.

    Seems you don’t disagree much with us, pro-gun folks. The government IS NOT it’s people. Time to draw that distinction and realize that. Since the government is NOT acting out in the interests of the people, or on their behalf, it is US THE PEOPLE who aren’t willing to act out in the interest of the government or abide by another stupid decision which would be just like any of those numbered points above .

    I think you are lost a little in your own position on the matter:
    “5. A political system that had become dysfunctional … and is being kept afloat by a central bank that is now printing close to $90 billion of new money a month out of thin air.”
    …but you want that same system to make another dysfunctional decision, that we have to follow, when you yourself see the BS…I don’t get your reasoning.

    To be honest, everything that was needed to be said, has been said in the 200+ comments…there is nothing further to discuss. If anyone learned anything new – Great. We cannot affect the outcome in anyway at this point. I wish you all the best, no matter your belief system.

  • Jacques Redou December 23, 2012, 4:28 am

    To Martin Schnell:

    “A nation bent on self destruction.”

    Exactly….

    I (and many others) Share your sentiments 110%.

    How do you stop a Tsunami of Corruption and Stupidity?

    Definition of Corruption: something for nothing.

    Definition of Stupidity: you get your ideas from TV.

  • Mbuna December 23, 2012, 3:11 am

    “To suggest that gun control is the cure for rampages like the one that occurred on Friday is to avoid confronting the real problem: civilization itself is mentally ill. And for that, there are no easy cures — certainly not outlawing certain types of weapons.”

    Yes, the best you or anyone else could do is mention the real problem- you are spot on by the way- and then you go on your blather about more guns when you already know it is not the solution because you are explicitly avoiding the real problem you just mentioned. So I can’t take anything you’ve written seriously beyond correctly identifying the problem.

    So civilization is mentally ill but you (nor I) can’t be bothered to put any further energy in that direction because, well, what happened doesn’t change the routine of your life in the moment. The only way you or anyone else will change their view is when your life routine is interrupted in a severe way. Understand this- whatever you do not assume responsibility for will be assumed by some other person or entity. Clearly things are headed downhill and will continue that way until enough destruction happens to affect a significant percentage of the population. If we as a population haven’t done anything to change this trend by then you can be assured we will be living in a police state.

    &&&&&

    Do I need to repeat this yet again? Arming myself is a personal decision. I do not want to be defenseless if and when some madman opens fire at the local mall.

    Meanwhile, the NRA’s director has been pilloried for suggesting that hiring armed guards is the quickest and easiest solution to protect the schools. He is right, of course, but you will likely disagree, since that would amount to “more guns.”

    I do hope you’ll let us know if you come up with a better way to deal, for the time being, with “the real problem.” RA

  • martin schnell December 23, 2012, 12:30 am

    To put it simply the US is losing it.

    The US by virtue of its natural resources, weather, arable land, single market. full of immigrants looking for a better life, and newness has a ton of positives going for it. It should easily be well above the rest of the world … but increasingly is it managing to squander its advantages. To those of us outside the US we can scarcely believe what we are seeing. A nation bent on self destruction.

    1. Massive military expenditures (50% of the world expenditures) made using borrowed money without any obvious limit or question of value for money.
    2. A health care system that costs twice as much as any other nation yet covers fewer individuals and gets worse results.
    3. A war on drugs/crime/… that results in the US putting almost 1% of its population in prison (at a huge financial and monetary cost) … at a rate far far above any other civilized nation.
    4. Gun homicides out of control, guns everywhere, no one feeling safe without a gun … might as well be a third world dictatorship … except they would probably be safer.
    5. A political system that had become dysfunctional … and is being kept afloat by a central bank that is now printing close to $90 billion of new money a month out of thin air.
    ……..
    Like I said … amazing to watch … and pretty sad too.

  • Jacques Redou December 22, 2012, 6:08 pm

    Comment:
    “Its terrific to own guns! ALL suggestions that there is anything bad about owning guns according to Guy Smith’s research, is completely off base. How could that possibly be true? Tell that to the victims.”

    Answer:
    I own guns. I own a car. I own a motorcycle. I used to own an airplane. There’s a hospital down the road. The car, motorcycle, airplane and hospital are
    ALL much more dangerous to human health than are
    the guns. So why focus on guns? Why aren’t you trying to take away people’s vehicles and shut down the hospital? Why just guns? They are all Tools. They can each be used or Misused.

    Comment:
    “What’s wrong with pepper spray or a stun gun? ”
    Answer:
    Stun Gun won’t penetrate a jacket. Winds blowing –
    pepper spray won’t work. Both methods require you
    to be too close to the assailant.

    Comment:
    “See, in the real world, if you are going to be a victim, then guess what?…you’re pretty much fu&^%ked.”
    Answer:
    Tell that to Ho Chi Minh.
    Tell that to Kemal Attaturk.
    Tell that to George Washington.
    Tell that to Bernard Goetz.
    Tell that to Rocky Balboa.

    Comment:
    “But I am talking about a specific country now today, the USA, and it is NOT doing very well with guns and violence at all”
    Answer:
    England and Scotland outlawed guns years ago.
    Their levels of violence are much higher than in the
    US.

    Comment:
    “No thanks. People need to be controlled, history shows it and that’s why governments form and laws are made.”
    Answer:
    Wrong, wrong, totally wrong: History shows EXACTLY
    the opposite. GOVERNMENTS need to be controlled.
    Chairman MAO proved that. Stalin proved that. Hitler proved that.

    Comment:
    “Is the NRA proposing to contribute one nickel to the mind-blowing cost of training armed security personnel, and placing them in every single school?”
    Answer:
    Train the teachers, principal, coach…whoever.
    You saw, in this last episode, several teachers lost their lives trying to save the kids. Give them the Tools
    they need. (pistols in locked cabinets) In nature when you get around the cub it’s the Mother you have to worry about.

    • redwilldanaher December 23, 2012, 1:07 am

      Thanks for devoting the time and effort to eviscerate the other components of Mario’s argument.

    • mario December 23, 2012, 4:44 am

      Oh terrific. Here we go a gain . Your lunacy! Arm and train everyone!. . “Hey gang I want to live in the USA and be a schoolteacher, what are the requirements may ask?”.

      Teachers degree and gun training.

      And let’s keep selling more guns n bullets!

      And you guys accuse me of knee-jerk reacting? .

      England and Scotland, once again, EXCEPTIONS not the rule.

      And on and on and on…

      Cheers and happy holidays, Mario

  • Darren December 22, 2012, 4:34 pm

    “To suggest that gun control is the cure for rampages like the one that occurred on Friday is to avoid confronting the real problem: civilization itself is mentally ill. And for that, there are no easy cures — certainly not outlawing certain types of weapons.”

    This one of the most insightful sentences I’ve read on the issue. The reason the left hates guns is that they need an excuse for the failure of their agenda. Today, we live in a world of the progressives creation. Their empowerment of the govt has created a society ruled by force rather than voluntary cooperation. This is a sick society. Rather than face that truth they advocate more force to disarm everyone. One day they may learn what the true causes of our problems are & stop trying to put out the fire with gasoline.

    Below is a speech that I gave on the subject of guns a few weeks before the killings at Sandy Hook. I stand by what I said, I actually think my points are more valid than ever:

    Gun Rights, Peace, and Liberty (video)
    Darren Wolfe talks about peace, liberty, gun rights, and security from the point of view of arming the people to protect themselves while disarming the government. The talk was based on his opening statement at the Greater Philadelphia Thinking Society (http://www.meetup.com/thinkingsociety/events/88133332/) sponsored gun control debate where he took the pro-gun side. The speech was delivered at the End the Fed/ End the Wars rally
    (https://www.facebook.com/events/443568162351325/) in Philadelphia, PA on November 24, 2012.

    http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2012/11/gun-rights-peace-and-liberty-video.html

  • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 3:40 pm

    For all the bloviating by some here about we “scary gun nuts” (sane people) in the “scary” U.S. , it seems the Swedish government is just as scared of their own innocent citizens…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_BXxy2CEk

    Not even pepper spray?! Well, so much for one “non-scary” persons earlier recommendation. If Swedes are so scary that they can’t be trusted with pepper spary, we “scary” Americans certainly can’t be trusted with _pepper_!

  • BKL December 22, 2012, 2:59 pm

    Is the NRA proposing to contribute one nickel to the mind-blowing cost of training armed security personnel, and placing them in every single school?

    America’s schools have just spent a decade laying off support staff and completely eliminating music, art and foreign languages. When are the country’s mothers and fathers going to get serious about advocating for their children’s education?

    • redwilldanaher December 22, 2012, 6:41 pm

      There are plenty of previously trained personnel that could step up immediately. There is plenty of waste in the all government to find the funds for them. Just check Oakland and Camden, NJ. Plenty of forcibly retired officers that need work as you would expect in a dystopia.

    • mario cavolo December 23, 2012, 7:40 am

      Hi BKL, on the mark comments, thanks, pointing out how upside down both government and the private sector are. With the destruction of marriage and family, children of divorce are lost from the emotional conflict and lack of guidance from their parents. Parents are responsible to guide and direct their children, when they’re split up, its a nightmare and doesn’t happen the majority of the time. That’s a key contributor to the sick society. Your second point is equally spot on, govt spending makes no sense….your school example as well, so unfortunate, welfare for the wealthy instead of those who need it, money wasted to serve special interests, not what is best for the society, and on and on and on….thanks for your thoughts, Cheers, Mario

  • BKL December 22, 2012, 1:42 pm

    One of the main things that attracted me to this website, is that Rick is not afraid to say what is on his mind. The commentary provided by his readers always provides interesting contrast and clarification.

    Let’s all play nice and keep it that way, shall we?

    Go sleep on the comments of the other participants.
    Then maybe you won’t resort to name-calling.

  • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 9:23 am

    For those tired of my “vitriol”… Come on. You’re not listening any more to the people being nice than you are listening to me. Fact is, and any honest person can look at the mountains of posts and easily see you people are the intolerant ones who absolutely do not want people to think different from YOU.

    So how ’bout just admitting that. Just come clean and be done with it. SHEESH!

  • KS December 22, 2012, 8:12 am

    Couldn’t help myself, as this jumped out at me from the document above:
    “Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year – the equivalent of almost three fully loaded Boeing 747 jet crashes per day – or about 286 times the rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same.”

    Let’s ban doctors, as they seem to be a dangerous lot…or the fact that it isn’t premeditated lets us ignore the numbers?
    See how it is, once you start looking at facts and not emotional speculations?

    • mario cavolo December 22, 2012, 12:17 pm

      Hi KS,

      What I find hard to swallow is that you are basically suggesting that when it comes to anything dangerous, people should be left to themselves. Statisticial comparisons like about the doctors above doesn’t really add to the discussion, we can start talking about how many people are killed by lightning strikes each year and then grant a few billion to scientists to reduce lightning strike deaths vs lung cancer deaths vs gun deaths, enough, those arguments and approaches don’t fly in the face of reality.

      What doesn’t fly with me, again is that you’re saying that people should be completely unregulated and uncontrolled with no laws regarding allowing them to own dangerous weapons called guns. Thats the message of the PDF which I read thoroughly. Its terrific to own guns! ALL suggestions that there is anything bad about owning guns according to Guy Smith’s research, is completely off base. How could that possibly be true? Tell that to the victims.

      No thanks. I’m respectfully unmoved from my moderate position and I still suggest that the radical positions of some on these boards are scary and irresponsible, not to mention they wouldn’t dare let anyone think differently than them. They,re right, they know it, they have the delusion that they have the “right” to be right and do what they want and no one else in the society should be concerned about them and their guns. We ARE concerned and for OBVIOUS reasons! I’ll be damned, yes we can see the wisdom of being armed rather than defenseless, yes there are countries with guns with low crime and without guns with high crime. Yes, we know this. But I am talking about a specific country now today, the USA, and it is NOT doing very well with guns and violence at all. In that country, guns are adding to the problem of crime and violence not making it better. If that is not true, show me.

      No thanks. People need to be controlled, history shows it and that’s why governments form and laws are made. Hopefully they are good governments. But no matter what, this monster debate runs in endles circles worse than an abortion debate!

      To RWD, your radical calls are a waste of your own breath and energy, Don Quixote? You are calling for radical response, for secession? You think peaceful secession is possible?What the hell are you thinking man? You LIVE in the United States of America and it is controlled by the government. You don’t like it, you think you are going to be able to change it? Pack your bags Wayne, give it up, find a better life elsewhere as many others do in this life, as my ancestors did when they left Italy and went to America one hundred years ago. Its not running, its making choices. I am proud of them. Stay and fight the lunacy you face there, you accomplish nothing and you will one of the first they will lock up and no one will give a sh!t. Follow my mother’ advice before you get yourself in real trouble with the folks you are complaining about, keep your mouth shut and go about your business. You are absolutely right what you said above, what America WAS is now gone, it IS gone, you have no rights, or at least much less rights than you had before, but you can’t change it, go cry, go moan and groan; quit your fighting, quit your complaining cuz its useless, get happy, pack your bags and get happy elsewhere. You want to be happy or you want to be right? There’s nothing wrong with that choice. Asia’s rising, come on over.

      Cheers and happy holidays, Mario

    • redwilldanaher December 22, 2012, 5:44 pm

      “How could that possibly be true? Tell that to the victims.”

      What victims are you referring to Mario? Those hundreds resulting from the acts of unstoppable rogue madmen or the hundreds of millions that have died directly as a result of being unable to defend themselves from the all powerful governments that you admire?

      “To RWD, your radical calls are a waste of your own breath and energy, Don Quixote? You are calling for radical response, for secession? You think peaceful secession is possible?What the hell are you thinking man? You LIVE in the United States of America and it is controlled by the government.”

      HAVE YOU GIVEN THIS ANY THOUGHT MARIO OR ARE YOU KNEE-JERKING AGAIN? WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A STATE OR GROUP OF STATE PEACEFULLY SECEDED? HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT? DO YOU KNOW WHAT DC WOULD DO ABOUT IT? DO YOU KNOW HOW THAT WOULD PLAY OUT IN THE CULTURE?

      WHERE WOULD THE BREAKAWAY REPUBLICS BE MARIO, IF A GUY LIKE YOU WERE IN CHARGE OF THEM? A LITTLE OVER 20 YEARS AND YOU SEEM TO HAVE COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN…

      “You don’t like it, you think you are going to be able to change it? Pack your bags Wayne, give it up, find a better life elsewhere as many others do in this life, as my ancestors did when they left Italy and went to America one hundred years ago.”

      MINE DID THE SAME MARIO. THEY ALSO FOUGHT IN I, II, AND KOREA. MAYBE I RESPECT THE SACRIFICE THAT THEY MADE ENOUGH TO HOLD MY GROUND IN AN ATTEMPT TO PREVENT THEIR SACRIFICES FROM BEING IN VAIN. MAYBE I BELIEVE THAT MY CHILDREN CAN BE FREE IN SOUTH CAROLINA. MAYBE I FORESEE AN OPPORTUNITY WHEREIN THEY WON’T HAVE TO LIVE THE PRAGMATIC, RATIONALIZED LIFESTYLE THAT YOU ESPOUSE WITH GREAT ENTHUSIASM.

      “Its not running, its making choices. I am proud of them. Stay and fight the lunacy you face there, you accomplish nothing and you will one of the first they will lock up and no one will give a sh!t. Follow my mother’ advice before you get yourself in real trouble with the folks you are complaining about, keep your mouth shut and go about your business. You are absolutely right what you said above, what America WAS is now gone, it IS gone, you have no rights, or at least much less rights than you had before, but you can’t change it, go cry, go moan and groan; quit your fighting, quit your complaining cuz its useless, get happy, pack your bags and get happy elsewhere. You want to be happy or you want to be right? There’s nothing wrong with that choice. Asia’s rising, come on over.

      Cheers and happy holidays, Mario”

      I DON’T CARE ABOUT BEING RIGHT, I CARE ABOUT DOING RIGHT. I’D LIKE TO BE HAPPY BUT I’M NOT GOING TO CHOOSE THE PATH OF WILLFUL DELUSION TO DO IT. YOU CAN COUNT YOUR BLESSINGS FOR WHAT THE TOTALITARIANISTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO FOR YOU, I KNOW THAT THEY’VE MURDERED TENS OF MILLIONS AND THAT’S NOT SOMETHING THAT I CAN RATIONALIZE AWAY BECAUSE I CAN EAT “3 SQUARE” A DAY ON THE CHEAP. THE CENTRALIZED GOVERNMENTS DISGUST ME IN BOTH COUNTRIES. SHOULD I EAT, DRINK AND BE MERRY KNOWING THAT MY CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN WILL BE FURTHER ENSLAVED AS THAT IS THE DOMINANT TREND?

      MY ITALIAN IMMIGRANT GRANDFATHER BY NECESSITY WAS A POOR PRIZE FIGHTER AND A PHILOSOPHER THAT TAUGHT HIMSELF HOW TO SPEAK 5 LANGUAGES ASIDE FROM ITALIAN AND ENGLISH. HE ALSO TAUGHT HIMSELF THE WAYS OF MEDICINE AND NUTRITION SO THAT HE COULD ADMINISTER TO HIS FAMILY SINCE HE DIDN’T HAVE THE MONETARY MEANS TO DO OTHERWISE. HE DID WHAT HE HAD TO IN THE TIMES THAT HE LIVED IN. HOW WOULD HE FEEL ABOUT HIS GRANDSON IF I WERE A GO WITH THE FLOW GROVELER?

      Clearly you stopped thinking Mario. You have chosen to overlook recent history and the founding history of this country just as you have effectively ignored the statistics showing where the real downside risk lies when citizens are not allow to defend themselves. Somehow you believe that AmeriKa can be occupied from the decks of carriers and by fighters that scream overhead. If those that have gone before us were as defeatist as you we would clearly be even more servile and deeper into serfdom than we are already.

      You’re a thoughtful person but I think that the PSYOPS and the expost facto emotions from this tragedy are getting the better of you.

      In the end you are willing to accept that there is no other option but to let ruthless psychopaths have dominion over your life and that of posterity. You’re willing to accept incomprehensible evils from centralized governments but you’re also willing to turn the last of your and our freedoms over to the same people because an unstoppable madmen chose to use handguns to commit a horrific crime.

      I am not.

    • mario December 23, 2012, 4:27 am

      Secession is NOT going to happen in your lifetime, politicians are masturbating each other and their constituents. You know that, is all a lunatic show to keep their paychecks and positions and votes going. We’re agreeing on how broken and lost the system is. And if it is that broken, move on.

      When the Europeans including my family faced similar, they left. When I was shocked and asked my deacon for guidance he said, “best choice sometimes is to move on. Move to another city and invite your children. To stay and fight with your psycho ex will make things worse. That’s your reality.”

      To getting personally assaulted for my views here is unfortunate. It should stop.

      Meanwhile you are putting to many words in my mouth regarding centralized governments. The current Chinese govt is doing a terrific job improving their country and the lives of their citizens, to a degree far unprecedented in history. I’m sorry that bothers some people because of their politics. If they were doing a lousy job I’d be the first to say it here. I keep reading idiotic comments about the enslavement in China. Where? What? They’ve never had it better! You can’t blame the govt for local private management problems screwing employees. Those situations are the exception not the rule, not valid arguments. . You try figuring out how to make the lives off 1.3 billion people better.

      It’s clear you want to stay and fight. Not me, yet you insult me and deride me for that? That’s not right. Enough Wayne. Ben is OUT OF CONTROL, sad.

      Cheers and happy holidays, Mario

  • KS December 22, 2012, 7:45 am

    For everyone’s review:
    http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

    Just spend 15 minutes of your time browsing through, especially if you are pro-ban, and have passionately defended your point of view here. Most likely you will find your own arguments answered there, without the emotional aspect from the opposing side.

  • Jacques Redou December 22, 2012, 1:51 am

    The Right to Defend oneself is an Inalienable Right.

    Another person does not have the right to take that from you.

    I was a federally licensed firearms dealer for 18 years and sold many Thousands of guns. I would estimate that somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of my customers were women. Most wanted a small handgun for personal protection. Usually they
    wanted to carry them in their purse. A few liked to target shoot. A few hunted.

    Here’s a quote from
    November 2000
    National
    Violence Against Women Survey
    US Dept of Justice and the
    Center for Disease Control

    “Further, 2.1 percent of the surveyed women reported being raped, physically assaulted, or both in the previous 12 months. This equates to an estimated 2.1 million U.S. women who are raped
    and/or physically assaulted annually.”

    Here’s the link if you want to read the survey yourself.

    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf

    Very few women are physically capable of fighting a man. A pistol reduces the man’s physical advantage.

    I would like to hear Gun Ban advocates explain to these 2.1 million female victims (and to their husbands and children) why women should have no right to defend themselves – if they choose to do so.

    • redwilldanaher December 22, 2012, 2:23 am

      You already know that you’ll never receive an explanation on that point or any other related to gun ownership.

      We are fools for arguing with those that have been Zombified by their beloved central governments via PSYOPS and mass propaganda.

      It is ironic that those that have been bitchified probably haven’t given those female victims a second thought.

    • mario cavolo December 22, 2012, 5:17 am

      Hi Jacques,

      Great point, but I wonder once again how it works out in the real world.

      See, in the real world, if you are going to be a victim, then guess what?…you’re pretty much fu&^%ked. You are a victim and that is unfortunate. There is only so much a person can do to prevent it. If tyranny is upon you by a govt, you’re pretty much fu&^%D. If a 250 pound violent man with a knife wants to rape a 100 lb woman, she’s pretty much f&^%Ked.

      There are some things she can and should do to try to avoid that. I worry that if she has the gun, while she increases the chances that she could defend herself against the brute, what are the chances that the gun will end up in his hands instead of hers?

      What’s wrong with pepper spray or a stun gun? It knocks any moose on his ass in miserable, debilitating pain. Now I’m happy to admit being righteously vengeful, say tha if a guy is about to brutally rape a woman, or if a man attacked my wife n children. Happy to defend my family by having shot him and will live with that well as that is what he deserves.

      But again, what you describe here is a valid, yet individual circumstance. Context, context, context is everything in making these difficult decisions.

      Cheers, Mario

    • KS December 22, 2012, 7:39 am

      “See, in the real world, if you are going to be a victim, then guess what?…you’re pretty much fu&^%ked. You are a victim and that is unfortunate. There is only so much a person can do to prevent it. If tyranny is upon you by a govt, you’re pretty much fu&^%D. If a 250 pound violent man with a knife wants to rape a 100 lb woman, she’s pretty much f&^%Ked. ”

      Victim is a state of mind, not an actual physical experience. Such a though process is what is wrong with your statement.
      “There is only so much one can do to prevent it”…exactly the reasoning behind self defense. You may die, you may not, but at least you tried your best. That is a built-in quality in humans. Being a victim isn’t.

      There is so much theory, politics, and everything else mentioned in all the comments, that it still pains me to read. Why is such a simple logical premise, SOOOO difficult to understand:
      PEOPLE BENT ON DESTRUCTION WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY. YOU CANNOT PREVENT IT.

      Or do you figure they sit at home planning a massacre, and all their plans are foiled by not getting a gun sold to them at Walmart? Then they just go on with their life…

      Guns are freely available on the black market. The cost for a fully automatic is actually lower significantly than a fully legal Class 3 NFA pre-ban you could buy in the main market. THAT IS THE POINT.
      Law is only effective if people fear it and are afraid of the punishment prescribed. This is not the case for a mass murderer, who never plans on getting out alive.

      Pro ban regulations will only regulate the law abiding people, who would never be a risk in the first place.
      This is so simple and logical. Take out all the pretty words and long conversations here, and it boils down to this simple truth.

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 8:52 am

      KS: “PEOPLE BENT ON DESTRUCTION WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY. YOU CANNOT PREVENT IT.”

      But according to the “moderate Marios” of the forum, that is no excuse for people to “misinterpret” the Constitution into an “excuse” to arm. And no, a law that would keep people from doing just that is NOT a ban, but a sensible regulation/law/whatever.

      But the Constitution says “[…]shall not be infringed”, with none of the predeeding words of the amendment being at all indicative that that is conditional. Shall not be infringed. It means exactly what it says. And that includes regs as well as bans, because as you, KS, and SO many others keep saying…

      The government will not abide the exact same restrictions, and criminals will get around them. Leaving us, of course, the least deserving of the restrictions, at the mercy of two wolves. Just where the “moderates” want us.

      Of course, upon the honest person realizing that, the “moderates” always try to restart and further obsfucate the “debate”. They don’t want to be seen as wrong and they want to either turn people off so they bow out (thus proving the “moderate” right) or lose patients (thus proving the “moderate” right).

      And on and on it goes…

    • mario cavolo December 22, 2012, 10:39 am

      I hear you KS, I do, understood. But for many in the real world they are simply victims of tyranny, of being the victim of another person’s lunacy, that’s what I’m referring to here. You can’t “state of mind” your way out of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, the wrong of the blade or gun barrel. It might be an individual momentary situation or tyranny and genocide and violence across an entire group or society, no happy thoughts will help then….Cheers, Mario

  • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 12:43 am

    This is hilarious, even if pathetically true…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84ptFVq22PY

  • mukesh December 21, 2012, 10:58 pm

    “I call on Congress today to act immediately, to appropriate whatever is necessary to put armed police officers in every school — and to do it now, to make sure that blanket of safety is in place when our children return to school in January,” said the NRA’s top lobbyist Wayne LaPierre in a speech taday.
    But having armed security on-site failed to prevent the deadliest mass murder at an American high school.

    In 1999, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed 15 people and wounded 23 more at Columbine High School. The destruction occurred despite the fact that there was an armed security officer at the school and another one nearby — exactly what LaPierre argued on Friday was the answer to stopping “a bad guy with a gun.”
    Pathetic moron.
    And I am done. Rick’s milking this tragedy on a financial website.

    • Rick Ackerman December 22, 2012, 7:29 pm

      Good riddance. Who said anything about this being a ‘financial website’? It is what it is, dorkwad.

  • mukesh December 21, 2012, 10:40 pm

    NRA is on the fringe.
    Sixty-three percent of Americans support banning assault rifles, only 32 oppose. That includes a majority of conservatives and gun owners. But of course, the NRA is opposed.
    Sixty-nine percent of Americans support banning internet sales of guns and ammo. The NRA is financially vested in such sales.
    Seventy-six percent of Americans support closing the gun-show loophole, only 19 percent oppose. Seventy-one percent of conservatives agree. Logically, the NRA sits with the 19 percent fringe.
    Only five percent of Americans oppose banning gun ownership for convicted violent felons. Naturally, the NRA sits with that five percent fringe. Heck, they’re even okay with potential terrorists buying and owning guns!
    Sixty-four percent of Americans support banning magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, including a majority of conservatives and gun owners. Too bad the NRA opposes that too.

    Magazines that fed bullets into the primary firearm used to kill 26 children and adults at a Connecticut school would have been banned under state legislation that the National Rifle Association and gunmakers successfully fought.
    It’s hard to believe that at one time, the NRA had something to do with gun safety and the rights of hunters. Nowadays, they’re merely an industry trade group, designed to foster the kind of paranoia that drives gun sales, and a regulatory scheme that protects the rights of gun manufacturers to maximize profits.
    Shame.

  • mukesh December 21, 2012, 5:24 pm

    Regardless of the gun manufacturers trolls here, businesses and special-interest groups often cloak their profit motives in the garb of constitutional rights — think Big Tobacco and its opposition to restrictions on smoking in public places and bold warnings on cigarette packages. The Supreme Court has made clear that the right to bear arms is not absolute and is subject to regulations and controls. Yet the N.R.A. clings to its groundless arguments that tough regulations violate the Second Amendment. Many of those arguments serve no purpose other than to increase the sales of guns and bullets.
    In both smoking and drinking, progress has been driven by a blend of changing public attitudes and responsive government policies.
    Could the same thing happen for guns? The moment is ripe. The slaughter of 20 children ages 6 and 7 was an event so unimaginably awful that it might have created the sort of sustained public pressure that other horrific shootings have somehow never managed to build.
    Here, too, there’s a valuable lesson from America’s history of dealing with alcohol. Even aside from constitutional considerations, attempts to outlaw handguns won’t work any better than banning booze did during Prohibition. But sensible gun restrictions seem more possible than at any time since an assault-weapons ban expired in 2004. These include a broadened ban on military-style semiautomatic rifles and high-capacity clips, and background checks on all gun sales.

    • bacos December 21, 2012, 7:30 pm

      Fundamentally, the NRA acts as it does I suspect because the other side of the coin really would prefer that all guns be banned. If one side’s end game is the one extreme, is it not a reasonable expectation that the other side’s end game is the other extreme? I’m not saying I like it; that’s just how it is.

      However, characterizing anyone who comes along with a pro-gun view as a “gun manufacturer troll” just makes it worse, polarizing the argument yet more. Remember the NRA has 4m+ active paying members. It ain’t made up, dude. And they don’t all work for gun manufacturers, except as customers – and presumably all willingly, since one doesn’t need to buy a gun or ammo in the same way that one needs to buy a car or a loaf of bread (except perhaps in Fairbanks). So calling someone who happens to be pro-gun a “gun mfgr troll” is just baiting.

      Fear drives a lot of the buying I imagine – fear of others, or fear of not being allowed to buy in the future because of impending regulation… I think S&W’s last year of financial outperformance could be reliably placed at the feet of those who would wish to ban guns – I promise you that S&W didn’t have to lift a finger in advertising or promotion or lobbying to achieve that.

      FWIW, the Supreme Court has made clear that the right to bear arms is not absolute and is subject to regulations and controls – but it has also made clear that it can only be regulated so far. Where is the balance? Dunno. What’s a “tough” regulation? What’s “sensible”? Is it any surprise there’s disagreement on the matter? Especially in a country where one size really doesn’t fit all and what is just fine in the northwoods of Michigan isn’t just fine in NYC or vice versa, which is the real issue at hand? Hell, there’s places in the world that think haggis and vegemite are sensible foods.

      Me, I’ve mostly checked out. I am so worn and tired by dealing with all of the people in the world with all of the dissenting opinions and extreme views about everything (yes yours is extreme – you may not think so and your friends may not think so but other folks think so and their friends do) that I really can’t deal with it anymore. I grew up in the backwoods. I’ve lived overseas. I’ve lived in downtown NYC. Funny how they’re all not the same, and the same rules don’t work so well for the different places. Funny also how folks in each different location so often seem to “know what’s best” for folks in those other locations – and sometimes they’re right, and sometimes they’re wrong, and almost invariably they all want things to be how _they_ think things should be when it comes to cases, just as the German still wants schnitzel and beer for dinner while visiting Italy or Greece and so you find the strangest things on the menu in the strangest places while the locals laugh.

      I live in upstate new york now. I don’t know why it’s still New York though, as there’s this massive dividing line roughly in the middle of Putnam County and by the time you get to Dutchess the world goes from “no guns ever” and communes and SUVs to “shall-issue permits” and farms and pick-em-up-trucks. No different in Michigan though – there’s Detroit, and the rest of the state that would be just as happy to take a massive saw and cut Detroit and its population out of the state and toss it in Lake Erie and let Canada deal with it.

      So I’m writing all this and I’m leaving the thread because I just don’t want to have the debate about it; I no longer have the energy or will, and I don’t feel a desire anymore to “shape society”. Maybe it needs to be shaped. Certainly, when too many people all live together in the same place. Makes a lot less sense when they don’t. Yet both places need each other – NYC would starve without the upstate farms, and upstate needs the tourist money. The odd thing is how the folks in the city move out to the country then expect that the local area should want to advance to their societal level – and farm boys expect to carry a pistol openly in downtown NYC.

      sigh.

      Ya know, all I have to do is look around to see that “progress” in smoking and drinking rather looks like a state of affairs that (a) benefits tobacco and alcohol manufacturers by keeping prices up (b) benefits government by keeping tax revenues up (imagine the loss of tax revenue if smoking were actually BANNED?) (c) keeps a lot of people employed arguing about it and regulating it (d) still results in a lotta people drinking and smoking and dead people …

      … but (e) makes a pretty fair number of people _feel_ better about it because “something’s being done”. Oh, and I don’t smoke and I can’t physically cope with alcohol much.

      Oh well.

  • Jack Russell December 21, 2012, 2:57 pm

    ….and dont need a automatic or to arm myself to do it…

  • Jack Russell December 21, 2012, 2:50 pm

    Benji, your still going strong, thats the way.. good work!…. how about we arm everyone to the hilt and throw in some good old god fearing evangalistic religion and I’ll see how you fair like Syria. great stuff. …thats a winner. maybe the purpose we were put on earth wasnt quite so animalistic, but just to smell the occasional rose.. but im pulling out plenty of weeds at the moment.

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 3:55 pm

      ” how about we arm everyone to the hilt and throw in some good old god fearing evangalistic religion and I’ll see how you fair like Syria.”

      Or we could just go about our lives and see what your moronic, proggie kindred do next. Probably nothing other than more b!tching and lying since they never did have a point, let alone the backbone to drive it home. I can live with that. And it is very heartening to listen to them lose.

      Anyway, why the obsession with me, Jack? There are others here just as much supportive of Liberty as I am. Or were you hoping for a personal posting war?

      Whatever. You can go count people and go back to sleep, sheep, for all I care.

    • mario cavolo December 21, 2012, 10:56 pm

      Hi Ben,

      This is what I don’t get about you and RWD, you want “liberty”. RWD wants guns because it is his “constitutional right”to own them? That’s absurd. MEN wrote a contract. MEN invented guns. They’re man made decisions, maybe good maybe bad. You don’t have any right to them. They’re not oxygen.

      You think your liberty, your individual liberty is more important than what’s best for your neighbors. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t and somebody has got to make a decision.

      Right now in American, guns and gun related violence are a big problem. OBVIOUSLY.

      Meanwhile, the NRA is right. Blaming the society is RIGHT…media, movies, video games, divorced parents who are not guiding their kids. That is CORRECT. Its called psychology and sociology, people’s behavior is influenced by these forces, for good or bad.

      The NRA is also right about using security guards. That is one of the reasons China has lower crime rates. EVERY apartment complex, even the lower level ones, has a small management office for things like maintenance and gate guards. 24 hours per day. At night, they close the gate. When you pull up in your car late, you have to tap your horn and they open the gate to let you in. You can’t “come and go as you please.” But its more safe and secure, that’s the trade off and its terrific to sleep at night knowing that no matter what there will not be a burglary in your apartment complex while you are sleeping because there are seurity guards 24/7.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 12:31 am

      Mario,

      Re: OBVIOUSLY!: You might want to check the actual numbers. El Salvador, despite a much lower number of gun ownership — nearly 1/10th the U.S. — has a homicide rate nearly 14 times higher. In the U.S. ~4/100k is not a war zone. Not by a 100 miles.

      And so what if Canada is less than 1/100k? That is the problem with the anti-gun crusaders and their cheerleaders. Or any progressivist issue, for that matter. So long as everyone isn’t number one in the lowest/highest of anything, depending on what diktat we’re talking about, it is a big world-ending disaster to them. We needn’t any more perspective than who’s “winning” in a game that ain’t even taking place.

      Bratty kids think that way. And if you look back in the posts, you know that I know how they always react when they can’t “win”.

      Re: They’re not rights!

      As I said in another post, the Mark Twain method… It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

      No, Mario, you don’t know much of what you speak against. It’s pretty fair to say you know nothing at all. And apparently, you never will understand.

      But on another note, and to give you some due credit, I do wonder what you make of the gun/nife similarity I illustrated earlier. Probably nothing intelligent, I’m sure. And that is because you said nothing about it. Good boy. Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

      That was about all the foolishness I could stomach reading for you, so I stop there. But ultimately, like Cam, you don’t live here, so… No need for another word.

    • mario cavolo December 22, 2012, 5:06 am

      First of all Ben,

      Your continuing invective insults of others only show your own weakness, so feel free to continue, good boy.

      Second, get it through your thick skull that I am NOT saying every country in the world should ban guns.

      It IS true that some countries have lots of guns but for social-psychological reasons of the values and behaviors in THAT particular society, gun crime is low.

      As you mention as an example, El Salvador.

      You stubborn absolutists on supposed “rights” of which you don’t really have any, refuse to see reality in the context of reality and that is your fault and weakness. The NRA is RIGHT! The problem isn’t JUST guns in the a given society, its the society itself.

      And the United States of America is the world’s current poster boy for idiocy in the eyes of the rest of the world when it comes to gun ownership and violence. You don’t know that? People from other countries look at the state of affairs that you vehemently defend and shake their heads in disgust and regret that the American society and government could be so incredibly STUPID when it comes to guns and violence.

      I wish Ben, in this respect, that the United States of America was El Salvador or China or Singapore or whatever other country you would like to pick that has a different model of violence, with or without guns. But it isn’t. Its a sick place that desperately needs the gun problem addressed. And in believing that everyone should be armed, of waving your “rights to bear arms” banner which is IRRELEVANT in today’s world, you are foolishly part of the problem.

      Finally, skipping your constant, annoying insults, wish you and everyone a lovely holiday season and Happy New Year.

      I have recently submitted by manuscript book on China to a major publisher, wish me luck on that please! The world needs the messages it contains.

      Cheers all, Mario

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 5:56 am

      Mario,

      How ’bout some numbers and facts, instead of more bloviating the contents of your brain?

      And btw, so many of your ilk have been the ones to come out and spit on me. I spit back. Deal with it. You, on the other hand, do it by being so ignorant, yet so authorative on the subject, that you insult the intellect of anyone with any. That, in your book, is “civil”. And not to put TOO fine a point on it, but…

      I can google the posts/topics, if you like. This isn’t the first time we’ve had a run-in over the years. And in those two times, it was YOU who went all mad-monkey first. Not me, mari-a-hole. YOU. And uh… who, in the end, was the doing the apologies? That, too, was you. But you struck out this third time. Even if you had the decency to apologize, it wouldn’t be worth much. They lose value with each passing one, Mr. “Civil”.

      You’re so easy to read and understand. You’re an a-hole, but think you can talk your way into and out of anything. Well, whatever… I’m not having any more of it. Don’t like it? Too bad.

    • mario cavolo December 22, 2012, 10:36 am

      Ben! Geez! Of course I remember I’ve also jumped down people’s throats!

      Even after I wish everyone happy holidays? Enough!

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 12:58 pm

      Mario,

      The day I think of you any different is the day you stop being a [….]. I saw your post, below, to KS. In so many of your wasteful responses, you were saying you weren’t for the controlling of people. But to KS, you admitted 110% that you’re all for it. You would say that, just as you’re bolting out the door. Very fitting. Very “civil”, yes.

      Chrst, calling you a […] woud be an insult to all [….]. Somehow, you’re just lower than even those. Absolutely appalling.

    • mario December 23, 2012, 3:54 am

      Hi Ben, congratulations, you get the last insult, and congrats for substantially reducing the integrity and character of Rick’ s with your ceaseless and pointless personal attacks.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 23, 2012, 10:13 am

      Don’t bother about it Mario. I think he has Rabies. You made some terrific points by the way. Well done.

  • mario cavolo December 21, 2012, 7:51 am

    Wow, I just watched the Dow futures jump off a cliff.
    In five minutes, down 90 points from 13230 and then in one minute down another 180, landing at 12960….at the same time bonds spiked up too…..nuts!

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 8:49 am

      Wow. Watching it here too Mario. And precious metals dropping like a rock. Look out below because resistance is broken in a very bad way. Silver printing below 30 bucks. Hmmm. We are likely going to have a lot to talk about come Monday morning (not about guns hopefully).

    • mario cavolo December 21, 2012, 1:55 pm

      Rick described it well in his home page comments…

  • Jacques Redou December 21, 2012, 7:49 am

    The Irony of a Professional Mass Murderer Obama giving a Eulogy over the handiwork of an Amateur Mass Murderer.

    What nation will he invade next? on what Pretext?

    • redwilldanaher December 21, 2012, 5:06 pm

      Well put JR.

  • Mac December 21, 2012, 7:46 am

    BO wants your guns? PC Roberts thinks this was a FF! Wow. To get your guns. He says a police state cannot allow people to have guns….

  • mukesh December 21, 2012, 5:43 am

    I think Ben is a gun manufacturer rep.
    On a side note: GOP… drama queen

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 6:02 am

      I’m glad you think so, muk, because I sure do feel as rich as one, what with the big increases in sales and all. But I’m not. Nice to know that I’m getting on the nerves of you cowardly statists, though. That is what makes my continued presence here worthwhile.

      Have a nice day!

  • Jacques Redou December 21, 2012, 2:28 am

    People who believe in GROUP responsibility want guns controlled by the STATE.

    PEOPLE who believe in INDIVIDUAL responsibility Do Not want guns controlled by the State.

    When the Individual decides to Kill, a few die.
    Tragic and Regrettable.

    When the GROUP / STATE decides to kill – MILLIONS
    DIE. Bush and Obama have proved that.

    What American even loses a Minute of Sleep over the
    CHILDREN of Afghanistan or Iraq or Libya or now Syria and Iran next. So we can drive our SUV’s cheaper? or get the Opium? or the drug Money
    for the Big Banks?

    But when it happens in Our Back Yard………
    It’s NOT OK.

    If the Mass Murderers Bush and Obama order it –
    Its OK.

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 5:24 am

      “People who believe in GROUP responsibility want guns controlled by the STATE.”

      Not exactly, Jacques. We patriots all want more responsibility on the personal as well as collective level. And by that, we don’t want more government, which has shown time again that it can’t stop a one of these tragedies from happening. So, it is more accurate to say that people seeking more govt control of guns want to make us all irresponsible, i.e. dependent, in all aspects of life. They say… Do not shoot, call the (paramilitary) police. Do not even arm, just give money to psychiatrists. Do not culture a society of responsible ownership, just sorrily accept blanket laws. Above all else, do not rely on anything but gov resources, as private sector ones will only teach you to not depend on the government.

      It’s pretty clear who’s who in this forum. Fortunately, the response outside has been overwhelmingly in favor of the opposite.

      “When the GROUP / STATE decides to kill – MILLIONS DIE. Bush and Obama have proved that.”

      There’s a history of far worse, but yes, point taken. And the modern day killers have only just begun. I suspect drones and nukes may be brought to bear before this is through. The narcisstic always throw tantrums when they can’t get their ways.

    • mava December 21, 2012, 4:03 pm

      Wow, you got it. Absolutely correct analysis.

      The thing is, as you probably know, here in America, we like to think of ourselves as being special people. But as the practice will show, there is nothing special about us. We will ban our guns. We simply don’t think, we can not think. We repeat what someone else has prepared for us.

      Watch these fools repeating the lines prepared for them. I have no hope. I know, we will do this. We are not intelligent enough to understand what does it really mean to be a free man. We think being free is marching on government parades, waving flags, showing off forever faithful stickers, … and of course, sending the dumb kids to kill someone else children.
      When we “support our troops” we don’t think of having them not become murderers. No, we understand it in the way that we need to give them better weapons to kill more, easier, with more fun.

      Literally, we have a slave mentality. Slaves are not allowed to have weapons. Just look at China, look at Europe for examples. These are slaves. And now, we need to fall in line with them, the Xerxes is at the gates and this is what he demands. The appeals are made to our “conscience”.

      Do you think even for a second that have enough guts to say the famous “Molon Labe” (come and take them yourself) ? No, we will cowardly give them up. We will lie to ourselves that we really, truthfully did it to save the children, and that we have our army (the Xerxes battalion now, really). LOL. There is no limit to the fantasies of excuses of why did one submitted and become a slave. There is always a reason.

  • Benjamin December 20, 2012, 9:48 pm

    Re: Keep the guns away from lunatics

    Everyone says it, but no one has yet offered any detailed insight as to how that would be accomplished. That is why that was the first point I gave the rebutt to, in my very first post. So many want it, so I ask HOW? Not what. Not why. Not who. HOW.

    And bear in mind, stricter background checks cannot predict the future. They may not always detect the present, either. And that will always be true.

    Thus I contend there is no better HOW than the thought of losing ones mentally ill loved one to an act of self-defense, which itself can be the result of ones mentally ill loved one taking anothers life. If you love them, do what needs to be done. Otherwise, do not blame society when your loved one is put down. No, we do not hate them. We just don’t like to be hurt or killed nor see it happen to anyone else. Besides…

    That is how it will be even with more background checks and more money to treatment and public mental health services. The paying non-recipients and overly scrutinized might begin to question whether it is worth the cost, and whether society is somehow responsible for something soceity is not at fault for. Because I sure as heck don’t see that I am. I do see that a person’s family is responsible for them, though, when they aren’t functioning at capacity. If a family-less person needs it, there is charity and, failing that, the public. But how many of the shooting lunatics were in that situation anyway?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 12:04 am

      Blanket restrictions, Ben. Blanket restrictions. It is not personal. Everyone abides by the law and society is better for the simplicity and the efforts.

    • bacos December 21, 2012, 6:26 pm

      Cam, that only works if the society accepts the blanket restriction. “If everyone abided by the law… ” then, well, shooting a bunch of kids is already against the law. So clearly people aren’t abiding by the law. Frankly, most probably any number of arcane federal laws were already broken in how the guns were laying around the house.

      However, rule of law is a rather loose concept in the US. Consider the entire fiasco called speed limits. Or the Controlled Substances Act. Civil disobedience is the norm.

      And on the topic of guns, “It is not personal” is not a useful statement. To the American citizen – pro or con – it *is* personal. Gun culture and all that yah? It’s tied right dead smack into the history of the country, the concept of individual liberty and the role of society and all of that. I appreciate that you have been here and love it here – but clearly you missed something, and having traveled myself quite a bit and having lived in other cultures, I understand why you’ve missed it, because it *is* different. An explanation of why would require a treatise.

      The “patriots” and “lunatics” – it depends your point of view. In Seattle or NYC, it’s one thing. Go to Montana or Wyoming or North Dakota or Texas, and those “patriots” and “lunatics” (in your view – aren’t all views subjective, really?) are the norm. And they’re not gonna accept those blanket restrictions unless you want to deploy the military to do it – cuz there’s way more of them than of the state police or BATF. (And how many of those members of military come from… Texas and like places, btw? Especially in the career positions? A lot. Statistically out-sized. Ask around.)

      The real problem with deploying the military is that every single officer in the US Military swore an oath to defend the Constitution – *not* to obey Congress or the President. (http://armypubs.army.mil/eforms/pdf/A71.PDF) That Constitution contains a Bill of Rights that lots of people – especially in the military – interpret as ensuring an individual right to keep and bear arms. I’m not asking you to agree with this state of affairs. It is, however, the state of affairs. Again, ask around if you wish. Thus, the mere act of deploying the military to enforce it would result in some form of rebellion or insurrection in and of itself over the question.

      Whether or not I agree with you Cam, there are some seriously significant issues in attempting to implement a blanket restriction. Namely, that really significant fraction of the US population that won’t agree with it. It might be one thing if it were some 2-5% of the population. It’ s not. Figure it’s a third. And yes, they’re armed, which makes the discussion fraught – though it’s not really about whether they have guns, it’s what they believe.. And it’s really hard for the 66% to enforce against the 33% when the military that would have to be used is probably biased more towards 50-50, and that 50% has a legal “out” to disobey what’s perceived as an unlawful order.

      So attempting to impose that blanket restriction on an assumption that everyone will abide by the law is a nice wish, but also highly likely to rip apart that society it’s meant to protect from itself.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 7:37 pm

      Good answer Bacos. Perhaps you are right. Guns are simply a cultural feature and are therefore a fixture that cannot be removed. I can certainly see the level of emotion this topic has engendered. My simplistic view may not be helpful at all. We do incidentally have a problem up here caused by the spilover effect. Thousands of illegal handguns are brought into Canada every year that were acquired at gun shows where little or no paperwork was required. Just having heard from others how quick and easy the acquisition process is came as a surprise to me.

  • Mac December 20, 2012, 8:24 pm

    and the second shooter?

    • redwilldanaher December 22, 2012, 2:14 am

      No Mac, there are never second shooters and the patsy is never a sleeper. Did I use the word “sleeper”? Reminds me to go back to watching MSLSD…

  • Douglas December 20, 2012, 7:15 pm

    Could everyone turn down the rhetoric a notch and allow that the other guy has a point? It is true that the presence of guns makes violence and accidents easier. However, it is likewise true that by the numbers, most violent deaths are the result of governments, that gun carry prevents crimes and deaths, and that the number of guns or their regulation is unrelated to crimes. As noted, the most highly regulated places on earth, prisons, can get drugs, knives, and guns. Scotland, with guns in low supply for hundreds of years and one of the highest regulations on earth, still has had mass shooting deaths, and UK violent crime and homicide rate is incredibly high–they simply don’t use guns to kill/maim each other.

    Contrariwise, let’s look at the US, always purported to be a violent, gun-happy nation. In the colonial days, almost every house would have had a rifle, yet we don’t hear of crime sprees or millions of dead colonial children, packed 5 to a one-room cabin with an unlocked, unsupervised rifle over the mantle. In the “wild” west, guns were semiautomatic, completely unregulated, and a predominance of citizens carried them, yet shooting crime was so low that only 3 people were killed at the OK Corral–in the most famous shootout of the era. That’s the best they can point to for gun violence over 50 years of western settlement that sparked 100 years of cowboy movie shootouts? The heavily-armed Wild West was calmer than a church tea party.

    Likewise, in the gun-toting, gang-running prohibition era of unregulated fully-automatic weapons, the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre killed only 5. Again, the most famous shooting of the age, so much that we still remember the name. The era of total availability of semi and fully-automatic firearms for several hundred years had no worse incidents than this.

    Now that guns are highly regulated, 1934 for fully-automatics, 1968 for registration, then banning a range of accessories along with government checks and permissions under the Brady Law. So has gun violence declined? Quite the contrary: gun violence has risen.

    Take the opposite side: perhaps it is the availability of legal guns at all, and if they were confiscated, murder and violence would decline. Australia did this. Murder and violence has risen. The UK has almost always had this, yet their homicide rate rises as well. So it’s a very difficult argument to make.

    For Canadians and others worldwide who have low gun ownership, it is true that the US is appallingly violent and also has a gun culture. It stands to reason the two should be connected. Yet looking at the evidence, it appears they are not. The problem with violence in the US–and perhaps in other violent states like the UK–is cultural, not technological. How to reverse those cultural changes is a long discussion for another day. And perhaps one would argue that people today are not like men of the past, to which we would ask: “Why not?” “What changed?”

    However, we can effectively dispense with the present argument, that easier access to guns leads to more aggression and violence, even descending to anarchy. Worldwide, Gun controlled Mexico is a high-murder state (16.9, Wikipedia). Restrictive UK is 2nd among industrial nations in violent crime, but has a low murder rate. In gun-free Australia, armed robbery rose 45% after confiscation. Placid Switzerland has a gun ownership requirement but one of the lowest murder rates (0.7).

    Even in the violent US (4.2), we can easily compare very high gun ownership and gun culture states:

    Top gun owners:
    Wyoming 59.7%
    Montana 57.7%
    South Dakota 56.6%
    W. Virginia 55.4%

    With the top violent crime states (2010):
    D.C. 1,330
    Nevada 660.3
    Deleware 620.9
    Tennessee 613.0

    Top Murder States:
    D.C. 21.9
    Louisiana 11.2
    Maryland 7.4
    Missouri 7.0

    With the top Gun Control States vs violent crime:
    NY 392.1
    CA 440.6
    MA 466.6
    CT 281.4

    Basically, no relationship between gun ownership and murder/violent crime, or gun control/violent crime. The guns used in US crimes are not generally crossing borders either, either state or national. They are, however, predominantly stolen, and thus untracked and unaffected by any possible regulation. In addition, there are so many guns already existing in the U.S. that it is functionally impossible to confiscate them—the best one could do is take them from law-abiding people while leaving the remaining weapons in the hands of criminals: not a wise plan reduce crime.

    The statistics are clear: gun availability through history is not related to gun crime, and gun control and regulation is not very related to violent crime.

    Those are the statistics. Can we have a more insightful discussion as to why these things should be and what we could most effectively do to reduce violence? At the moment, it seems both sides are talking by each other.

    Perhaps we can focus on what DOES cause violent crime, murder, and/or even gun violence and solve that?

    • Benjamin December 20, 2012, 9:18 pm

      Nice to have ya here, Doug. Indeed, the rhetoric is quite a bit thicker than I thought it would be. Then again, Rick has readers and subscribers from all over the world. I know many regulars are from outside the U.S. , but I oft times forget that with the unfamiliar names. I can’t imagine any other explanation for it!

      Anyway, the stats and history you provided are of course on the money. There are so many ways to see it, it’s not even funny. No matter ya slice it… There is no reason for more restrictions and yes, we could do well with less.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 11:59 pm

      Sorry Benny. You obviously need some controls when guns are being handed out like candy to whack-jobs.

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 4:31 am

      Yeah, Cam, whatever. You don’t live here, so I won’t waste another breath on ya.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 8:31 am

      But I have lived there, Benjamin. Used to drive down to Seattle almost every weekend and I loved the place. What you don’t know is that I really love your country and it really rips me when the madness I see there goes off the deep end. God Bless America.

  • Benjamin December 20, 2012, 5:16 pm

    Since the posting has died down, I would to like to, just deliver what I promised, illustrate what I meant by the similarity between knives and guns. If anyone is still around and recalls, I made that point in reference to U.S. gun rampage killings and Chinese knife rampage killngs. I’ll post the link here, for convenience…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

    From that page, one must click on the respective regions link, found at the top of the respective table. The tables on the linked page do not list every incident in the two countries, but only the worst/notable ones. What I did was sort the lists by exclusive type, (F)irearms for the U.S. and (M)elee for China. If other methods were involved, they were excluded; I wanted to compare only firearms to “knives”, or melee, and not have to look into each mixed case and split hairs. Still, the numbers didn’t turn out all that different.

    Finally, for each respective country, those weapon types are the most common in their respective rampage incidents, making it ideal for a comparison. What we’re looking at is one example of the difference between a country with very tight restriction, and one with less. Now, the results…

    China
    Incidents: 41
    Deaths/injuries: 230/243
    per incident: 5.6/5.9

    United States
    Incidents: 62
    Totals: 352/588
    per incident: 5.7/9.5-10.1

    As one can see, they avearge out to almost identical numbers. And while the incident and deaths are higher in the U.S., the U.S. data went much further back than China’s and hasn’t any holes. If the numbers are put in proportion to each other, though, they have death totals that are very close (no more than +/- 5).

    One last note is that there was no differences in deaths/injuries between U.S. rampages comitted in the 19th century, the later decades of the 20th, and now. So the more thorough U.S. data did not distort anything to produce those averages.

    So one weapon type is not better than the other, as far as the U.S. and China go. What can be said from the numbers, however, is that gun rampages in the U.S. cause more injury than melee rampages do in China. Anyway, what can be seen from looking at other countries is there in the link. I’ve not looked yet, myself, but I expect that melee attacks will not significantly vary from China’s; a pair of human hands can only do so much.

    In the future, perhaps, I will do that comparison. But for now, I stand my ground. If we need more regs against U.S. citizens and their guns, then we certainly need more regs against knives, axes, clubs, etc. And cars, and airplanes and hands and… So no, there is no such a thing as sensible regulation. They help nothing, but hinder liberty.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 7:38 pm

      Disagree with you here Benjamin. Based on your own data there is not a good case for expanded ownership of firearms in the US. There is however a good case for keeping weapons out of the hands of lunatics of which we seem to have equal numbers per capita in both countries.

    • Benjamin December 20, 2012, 8:22 pm

      And by my own data (actually, it belongs to the world and history), I see no reason for further intrusion.

      But by Switzerland’s data, which I should’ve included (my fault)…

      Leibacher, Friedrich Heinz, 57 2001 FE 14/18
      Schwarz, Hermann, 24 1912 F 7/6
      Criscione, Erminio, 36 1992 F 6/6
      Unknown, 32 2002 M 0/14

      … I see good cause for expansion, as well as greater _culturing_, not legislating, of gun safety. We won’t culture away the dangers, crime, and violence if we don’t get pro-active. That is that “inexplicable cultural thing” so oft touted when critics and nay-sayers Dismiss the Swiss (they should use that as a slogan). Anyway, more armed adults in schools and more armed households will lead to that culturing of safety and, for those who would do ill, culture of “I think I won’t”. That is why our pols and media and other critics are so against the idea. It would be our American heritage at work, and none of their garbage.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 11:49 pm

      The problem for those arguing against guns is that we never know when the other side will lose its patience and just start shooting the objectors.

      So let me be blunt.

      I favour gun control because those who favour ownership are so often lunatics and fringe society nuts. They are anti-government, anti-social wing-jobs with no more right to express their idiotic passion for weaponry than I have to reject their notions.

      The sooner the madness ends the better.

      Hate me if you will but Obama is right to strike fast while the iron is still hot and put hard limits on the acquisition process. Recalls and bans of some weapons are now in order as they pose an expanding threat to peace, security and governance.

      Curbs on certain ammo, clips, handguns, automatic weapons and gun show sales are all welcome and will chill the fervor of orthodox adherants to arm the whole populace against……against……we really don’t know what.

      The enemy is mythical.

      Quoting verse and scripture of amendment rights to bear arms is just a pack of 18th century bluster, bullshit and nonsense conjured up to sway the weak minded amongst us. It is about as pathetic as those clinging to the old notions of such and such numbers of grains of silver being equal to a specified unit of dollars.

      If I read the word “specie” one more time this week I really think I will puke up in my shirt.

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 4:38 am

      “The problem for those arguing against guns is that we never know when the other side will lose its patience and just start shooting the objectors.”

      No one has gone out and shot any Amish or Quakers, Cam. As for the castrated social elitists, they’ll move out in their own good time. And doubtless it will be them, or, as is typical of the coward, the gov agents they send to do it for them , who will try to shoot us for not obeying them.

  • Fatcats December 20, 2012, 5:14 pm

    As a psychotherapist in the field of treating the mentally ill, I advocate for more dollars to be allocated in the form of treatment, less stigmatism related to obtaining help, and more media attention to mental health. All this attention on gun control will not stop the tragedies, but a network of support and treatment programs are a far better bet!

    • Benjamin December 20, 2012, 5:24 pm

      While I appreciate your lack of desire and concern to have more gun restrictions, I don’t see how more money toward treatment can work. But I’ll ask… What do you have in mind?

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 12:08 am

      So we should just talk down the crazies? You must be kidding me, Fatcats. Keep the ammo flowing and we will all sing Kumbay together with the guys bent on shooting you and your family.

      Can we hold hands now? Oooh that feels good!

  • mukesh December 20, 2012, 3:57 pm

    We only take notice when gun violence is sufficiently spectacular, such as at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. But on a typical day in the US, 33 people are murdered by guns, and 50 die in gun-related suicides. It’s time to regulate.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 4:44 pm

      A bit of regulation can’t hurt. To be honest though I am in the camp that is opposed to outright bans on firearms of all variety. If I had to express a more personal opinion it would be that automatics have no good place in a civil society nor do the profusion of handguns we see today. Limits on the numbers of weapons per household is more appropriate than outlawing the guns themselves. I don’t own one. Never felt the need. For the most part, only farmers keep rifles and long guns up here in canada and other than law enforcement there are precious few handguns except in the hands of security services, government and diplomatic corp, police and of course *criminals*. What ever happened to good old fashioned notions of just punching out the idiots who really get on your nerves? No shooting required.

    • bacos December 21, 2012, 5:44 pm

      50 people/day use firearms for suicide, 18,000 people/yr. (no reference cited by mukesh – but sounds right.)

      another ~11,000/yr in firearms-related homicides (basis 2008 FBI CIUS2008).

      approx 1m-2m ppl/yr use firearms in self-defense. (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, CDC – survey-based, depends on who you ask, but even the CDC can’t get it below 500k, basis 1994.)

      there is no statistical basis to be found for Mr. Kellerman’s 7x-likely-to-be-used anywhere except in Mr. Kellerman’s head. Certainly not in FBI statistics or leading research papers from folks who study such things.

      We can argue about what we’d LIKE our world to be, and I respect Mario’s choice to live in an effective dictatorship – as Heinlein proposed, “a well-run tyranny is a better than is any form of free government. But a well-run tyranny is as scarce as an efficient democracy”. I would say Asian dictatorships are much more predictable, and Asian societies certainly are more cohesive but carry more tail-risk. It’s all a matter of preference. Personally, I couldn’t stand the Chinese/Korean/Japanese diet, so I shan’t be moving there for much more prosaic reasons. My wife doesn’t want to live in Switzerland, alas, and Germans would eventually get on my nerves I fear.

      An all-out confiscation or buy-out in the US would probably provoke a civil war. A lot more people would die as a result.

      Personally, I would prefer if the anti-gun crowd – the leading organizations of which all fundamentally have the stance that their ideal world would involve a total gun ban – would just come right out and call for a constitutional convention. If their side is right, then the Second Amendment would be repealed and we could skip all the legal nonsense. Of course this won’t happen. Besides, at this point a constitutional convention would probably also result in a civil war.

      Personally, I’d also prefer if people could get their language right and stop calling semi-autos assault weapons – the US military standard-issue assault weapon is selective-fire, and the Class-III permitting required to own a selective-fire or multiple-repeating-fire weapon in the US are so restrictive there aren’t but a handful and they’ve all signed off on the right of FBI/ATF to walk into their premises anytime for any reason and inspect anything and are essentially paying for them to do so. The number of NFA-class firearms used to commit a crime since the NFA act in 1934 can probably be counted on one’s hands and toes. So “assault weapons” only exist in the media. But obfuscation and sensationalization are the order of the day.

      Should there be more restrictions? Probably. But will gun restrictions fix a broken society? Nope. Another band-aid. Take all the money spent on the law enforcement required to ban/restrict guns more and spend it on helping the mentally-ill. Kinda like we’d make real progress on emissions by simply buying and crushing all cars on the road > 15yrs old (ignore the collectors) and buying their owners new Cadillacs or BMWs. But we can’t do that, it’d be too rationally effective. Err, don’t forget to ban all those tiny two-cycle engines. and backyard barbecues. Oh wait, they’re trying that last one I hear.

      Can’t we all get along? Apparently not.

      In the environment we are in, therefore, I would have to stand on the side of those statistics that features self-defense. There is no way on earth I could defend myself against a healthy intruder with a knife. With my shotgun, yeah, I’ve got a pretty healthy chance. Stats say so even. Doubt it? Ask your local beat cop. Except maybe in NYC.

      &&&&&

      A superb summary of the issues, Bacos. Thanks for weighing in — and also for distinguishing between assault weapons and ‘assault weapons’. RA

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 11:52 pm

      “Personally, I would prefer if the anti-gun crowd – the leading organizations of which all fundamentally have the stance that their ideal world would involve a total gun ban – would just come right out and call for a constitutional convention. If their side is right, then the Second Amendment would be repealed and we could skip all the legal nonsense. Of course this won’t happen. Besides, at this point a constitutional convention would probably also result in a civil war. ”

      Hello there, bacos. You’re right about that. First, yes, they should just put up or shut up (or move out, I say). But they know it would be a civil war, at worst, and a big floppy failure, at best. That is why it hasn’t even been mentioned, that I know of.

      Even if they were to succeed in striking a line through the second, that would violate that part that says “shall not be infringed”. Have to admire the wit as well as the conscience in writing it in such a way. A civil war would ignite, and well it should.

      For tyranny, it would be like another Custer’s Last “Stand” because they haven’t the sheer numbers and they know it. And there is no way a heavy weight of military personnel could be brought to bear. We’re at that point in foreign relations that it would be suicidaly disaterous to summon all the troops back for a war of oppression at home — especially in the knowledge that so many of them wouldn’t obey an order to disarm citizens (look up ‘Oath Keepers’).

      Over two hundred years of firmly embedded history, and still growing, is a lot harder to scrub out than it may intially seem. We know it, they know it… Life goes on.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 22, 2012, 12:09 am

      Oh come on, Bacos. Do you honstly believe some restraint being exercised where gun ownership is concerned would spark a civil war? That is just fear mongering nonsense and fluff. Your “superb summary” is just a manipulation of words to carry your pro-gun case without coming across as offensive or fanatical. Any fool can see right through it.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 22, 2012, 12:13 am

      Yeah sure..the Oath Keepers are a big force to reckon with Ben. Same as the Gold-Huggers in the crowd who got their asses kicked the last few days. Are you still buying?

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 1:42 am

      Cam Canuk,

      FYI, the OKs have grown to over 20,000 in just three short years. But it doesn’t need to be very large because, in tandem with the millions of armed households, and only so many armed alphabet soup agents, and the military stretched…

      A retarded monkey could see who the losers would be.

      You’re a sad excuse for an anything, even for a progressive. And the sadder thing is, you’re probably around 20 years my senior. Wisdom does not come with age. But perhaps the opposite isn’t true…. Were you always this much of a moron, Cam, or did you have to work hard at it?

    • redwilldanaher December 22, 2012, 2:13 am

      Just think if idiot pu$$ies like these had been in foxholes with real GIs during the most recent world war. We’d all be part of Za Fatherland…

      They have the itch to “do something” no matter how arse backward and ineffective it may be. The calling card of weak-willed man, using the word loosely.

      They’re more comfortable leaving their fates up to capricious psychopaths than they are leaving a long gun in there own possession with which to defend their families.

      If anyone doubts how effective PSYOPS can be and have been, they need only read the comments from the “enlightened” in Rick’s forum this week.

      The failure of governments in every way throughout the course of history and the last 50 years of epic and sputtering failure in AmeriKa has been completely lost on them.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 22, 2012, 8:34 am

      Benjamin, my family emmigrated from the US in the 1930’s so I might be less of a Canuck than you think. A relative of mine is a signatory to the Declaration of Independance and was involved in drafting the Bill of Rights. Can you say the same?

      My objection to you evolved out of your initial posts that were designed to shut down the debate before it even began. I also think many like you are misreading the intention behind the articles and amendments embodied in the right to bear arms and so it is worth commenting on them in opposition. Your views strike me as extremist and intolerant and I am quite sure it is a waste of my time to try and change your mind. That won’t stop me from taking an alternate position though. You are not the only one here with a point of view by the way. The raft of insults in your many posts directed at all who don’t share your opinion does absolutely nothing to further your case.

      That will be my last word on this article.

    • Benjamin December 22, 2012, 9:10 am

      Cam, I didn’t call you any names until I could no longer stand your snarky, condenscening, and valueless responses. The posts tell that story exactly as I just did. The first two — one on the previous page of comments, and one on this one– I took the time to articulate exactly where I stand and why. Then you came back with… what? Rotten tomatoes. In my third response, I took it in stride and provided further clarification. You threw more tomatoes. So, I started throwing them back.

      But you have your delusions if that makes you feel all superior. Becuase you sure as heck can’t have a real reason to be proud. Good day.

  • markus wallett December 20, 2012, 2:26 pm

    Less guns in circulation, less murders. Simple really. If the teacher of the shooter hadn’t have had guns, those little kids and teachers would still be alive today. However, if she’d had an abortion 20 years ago, then those kids and teachers might have still been alive today also, unless the mother eventually flipped her lid and went on a wild shooting spree instead with her arsenal of weapons. There are so many variables, and so many possibilities when guns come into the equation.

  • KS December 20, 2012, 9:42 am

    It will be interesting to see the development of the agenda from this point on. Even enacting a full federal ban on ALL firearms, would leave around 300 million currently owned weapons out there.
    There will be NO turn-ins, as in Australia. It is financially not feasible to buy them out. I haven’t heard a single response from a gunowner both on and offline, but a fleeting “they(guns) will be lost the next day”.

    Kind of makes you think what the point is of the blabbering on part of the govt, except for creating mass hysteria, attention divertion from an important current event, or other dark agenda. I am not even going to go down the rabbit hole of disinformation, massive conflict of facts and reporting, coincidences, syncronicities, numerological and occult implications of this event…whoever is curious can do their own research.

    The overload of information is real in this day and age. I wish the only outcome for the coming end of days, that every single human on Earth gets the 6th sense of Empathy turned on. I really want to be in that world.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 21, 2012, 12:15 am

      Of course it is financially feasible to buy up all the weapons. Did you miss all the QE’s by any chance? How about the bailouts of the automakers, the vast and nearly unlimited lending for higher education, the multi-year unemployment packages, food stamps for millions, the bottomless pit of dollars directed at the banks and that does not even include trillions for social security, welfare, pensions, medicare, ongoing programs the military and everything else.

      It would be a pittance.

    • KS December 21, 2012, 5:33 am

      Not if they have to pay the market price, and at this point where the shortages left to a two-fold price increase, combined with the owners’ unwillingness to sell at any price, I figure the bidding war might lead to a level very noticeable against the country’s GDP 🙂

      Of course they will want to fix the price, as in the gold confiscation in the 30’s, but then I figure all 300 million guns will be lost to a very creative thief the next day. Lots of police reports to file.

      I partly jest. Partly

    • Benjamin December 21, 2012, 5:57 am

      “Of course they will want to fix the price, as in the gold confiscation in the 30’s, but then I figure all 300 million guns will be lost to a very creative thief the next day. Lots of police reports to file.”

      That reminds me, KS. With anything else following a disaster, every politcian up to the president cries about “gouging”. But they’re silent on rising gun and ammo prices. “Hey, stop gouging all those arming patriots!”. That would be RICH! Force the price down, to kill the availability, as price controlls are wont to do, but having to outright announce their intention. That explains their silence on the matter, methinks (not that we need them any more involved).

  • ellaV8 December 20, 2012, 7:39 am

    After reading all the comments and hearing the heated emotions, y’all, I just wanna say….

    Can’t we all just…..get along?

    : )

    &&&&&&&

    Yeah, and why don’t we all agree on a favorite ice cream flavor — vanilla — while we’re at it? And one role model: Rodney King. RA

  • Marc Authier December 20, 2012, 4:08 am

    Big Pharma and crazy psychiatrist prescribing dangerous mind altering psychotic MADE IN USA dirty drugs, most of them closer to LSD than anything else, are 100% of the time implicated in these crimes. There are I repeat in 100# the ONLY cause of what is happening. And Americans are slobs and slaves when it comes to big pharma and these criminals and pseudo doctors called psychiatrict. How about introduced capital punishment againt psychiatrist and pig CEO from Big Pharma instead ? Starting at the SOURCE with the USA corporate fascists selling psychosis inducing drugs is the SOLUTION and suing the FDA criminals still authorizing what I consider poisonous brain excrement. USA is the land of Zombies when it comes to mental health and health in general.

  • peter aris December 19, 2012, 11:03 pm

    your comment on gun control is complete rubbish expecting teachers and others to carry guns and get involved in shoot outs-you are brain dead

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 19, 2012, 11:56 pm

      Maybe a bit strong Peter. Those of us who come here frequently genuinely enjoy Ricks commentary even if we sometimes quarrel with him. One thing he is not though is “brain dead”. Controversial is the better choice of terms.

    • redwilldanaher December 20, 2012, 2:53 am

      Bravo Peter. You’re right, they are all better off being shot to death like defenseless fish in a barrel…

    • TMM December 20, 2012, 4:14 am

      So the logical conclusion then is to just arm everyone that isn’t a criminal or lunatic. By that reckoning, if the schoolchildren were carrying, they might have been heroes instead of victims. What madness is this? /sarc

      The hidden pivot trading strategy identifies when the odds are in your favor. But if the odds are 11-1 against, would anyone still make that trade? Now change the topic to gun ownership and those 11-1 odds magically become a good bet — until the odds catch up and one of your loved ones is accidentally killed.

    • mario cavolo December 20, 2012, 4:51 am

      Thank you TMM. Both ideals WON”T work, the sociological history proves it.

      My ideal of a gun free world in the U.S. is 100% NOT executable because it is too late. You couldn’t ban weapons in America any more than you could in other countries where carrying firearms is accepted practice deep enough into the culture. Other countries where the society is already gun-free with the accompanying social values, its fine.

      RWD and Rampage’s and Rick’s et al. idea of a reasonable gun-toting American citizenry is understandable, but also 100% NOT executable.

      History is a series of stories of groups of people who want their own little world to be different than the one in which they live, and so they do one of three things:

      1. They stay put and try like hell to effect the changes they want in a civil manner. A waste of time in the U.S.
      2. They violently try to take over with their weapons. An impossibility within the borders of the U.S.
      3. They go to another existing society that already is suitable enough to how they want to live. Nice choice if reasonably possible, pockets of society far enough away from the lunacy you wish to escape.
      4. They go another location and try to violently take it over with their weapons. This is the story of man’s history on planet earth. It is how all societies in which we now live were formed starting around 2000BC with the Egyptians and Greeks, followed by the violent rise and formation of Christianity, Islam, Europe, India and China ( the Far East).
      5. They go to another location to escape, to be isolated from the rest of the world and peacefully create their own society the way they wish.

      Option 1 is what people who are filled with patriotic and political ideas like to do, stay and argue and play in the sandbox together.

      Option 3 and 5 are peaceful and readily available and easy to do. However they involve the inconvenience of relocating. Upon further investigation, a person learns that relocating to certain places is much simpler than at first glance.

      Option 2, 4, and 6 are what they are – violent means to an end when people feel with conviction, right or wrong, that they have no choice but to return tyranny, control and suspension of rights with a violent response, to die trying.

      I say its much easier to pack it up and move, the world is a very big place to start over when your own country is no longer satisfacory. My family generations did so in the early 1900’s moving from Italy to America and then I did so moving from America to China/Asia in the early 2000’s.

      Jim Rogers has it right, something like; If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, 1907 you moved to New York, 2007 you move to Asia (pick a city). From a historical macro point of view, that’s spot on.

      Very tough and very sad stuff we are all responsible to contemplate and respond to as best we can in a way that is best both for ourselves and the society in which we live.

      Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo December 20, 2012, 5:04 am

      Ditto Cam, Peter. Rick is strong-minded as many of us here and surely he throws ideas out to stir up argument but he does so responsibly and thoughtfully. I hate the idea that the teachers at the Jewish school are armed, but I strongly defend the point, that all such situations can not be dealt with in absolutes, they must be responded to in the context of the reality, of the circumstance one faces. In those particular circumstances one makes choices.

      Here’s a benign yet crazy example. In America a driver would never drive through a crosswalk while people are crossing. As an American driving in America I would be equally appaled at such behavior.

      Yet here in China, it is 100% normal, in fact if the cars did NOT continue driving through the intersection as expected, it would probably cause more accidents because even the people walking across the cross walk know and expect that is what cars do. It is therefore, normal. And that now includes, confession time, me when I am driving. I do what is expected within the normal mores and bounds of the society in which I live. Furthermore I do it by habit, as a brainwashed robot of the society in which I live. I now do it, we ALL do it, we MUST do it. You will judge? Hah, the people here, the ones walking through the crosswalk will laugh at you when you tell them they should be more careful with their children!..stay out of the crosswalk until the cars pass! That’s the truth, the reality. So then, given the context of the Jewish teacher story, it is the most possibly reasonable and thoughtful response the adults could come up with.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Rampage December 19, 2012, 10:43 pm

    post script: from the movie, “I kilt’t the bare that kilt me!”

  • Rampage December 19, 2012, 10:42 pm

    WOW!

    Rick, you often leave essays in the forum for 2 or 3 days, but this one could sustain for weeks!

    I find the Pro gun arguments expressed here by and large very astute and a few of the anti-gun arguments are presented well also (very few). Nothing that I have read from that camp, however, has swayed me nonetheless.

    I can’t help but picture in my mind the scene from “Jeremiah Johnson” where he happens upon the body of a man “frozen” with a 50 caliber rifle in his hands. That is the way I see someone taking my long rifle!

    • mario cavolo December 20, 2012, 3:24 am

      Rampage, the extremity of your gun ownership makes me realize that being a gun “collector” is a nice hobby, like being perhaps a musical instrument collector or a vinyl record collecto. I am not being sarcastic. I like going to museums and seeing collections of stuff, weapons included. But what you seem to find really difficult to understand is that if more and more people in America arm themselves just like you, reasons et al, there is going to be alot more shooting and violence and descent into social anarchy. We have a truly whacked out society over there and its getting worse, arming everyone is not going to make it better.

      Or will it? Maybe I’m wrong, maybe if every neighbor knew every neighbor had a gun and every robber knew, then everyone would wisely behave. Sounds lovely. That’s sort of what its like in societies like China and Singapore and others where punishment is harsh as a deterrent, therefore people behave. But its more than that, there is a different set of values whirling around inside the brains of people in other societies. There are examples I’ve read about here of places where everyone has a gun and there are never any shootings.

      The problem is that to get the U.S. society from where it is to across the gap to that ideal gun-toting utopia is like trying to shift the tide. It is simply not going to happen.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Benjamin December 19, 2012, 5:45 pm

    One can easily search YouTube and see the facts, if reading and thought are not their thing. Use keywords “riots” and “gun control”. Append a paradise country’s name to it, for specifics. UK, Australia, Canada, various European, China…

    Rising crime, police forces stretched thin, “undefined” crimes going uncounted, criminals suing the people who committed the crime of illegalized self-defense, fires in the street, people being tear-gassed and shoved/beaten back by riot police as they shout “f’ing pigs!”…

    The current signs of being better off should raise the question as to whether things ever were better off in the first place. That can’t be YouTubed but it is not at all hard to see and understand.

    Hint: Governments in ‘robin hood’ mode did the bulk of the real crimes — robbing disarmed producers — while the recipients were given enough free lunch to help suppress criminal urges.

    So even the world that “was”, was never better off. Only a world like that can give rise to all the modern-day signs of being “better off” without Liberty.

    Anyone who wishes to further sing the praises of “better off” had best look around and smell the coffee already. And if they simply can’t bring themselves to do that, then they should stop speaking of things they know “nothing” about.

  • redwilldanaher December 19, 2012, 5:40 pm

    One morning’s smattering of headlines from Drudge. ONE MORNING!

    THE NO ACCOUNTABILITY STATE:

    THE BUCK STOPS … NOWHERE…
    Benghazi review finds systematic State Dept. failures…
    No individual shirked duties, no disciplinary action….
    Report blames Libyan guards hired to protect compound…
    Were on Strike in ‘Protest Over Salary, Working Hours’…

    CAUGHT ON TAPE: Routine traffic stop in TX ends in trooper conducting ‘roadside body cavity search’…

    Belgium looks at euthanasia for minors, Alzheimer’s sufferers…

    France takes first step toward medically-assisted suicide…

    French psychiatrist sentenced after patient commits murder…

    TAXES GO UP ON RICH NOW, CUT SPENDING LATER…

    America’s triple A rating at risk…

    Debt has increased $18,944 per household under his leadership…

    Postal employees stole millions in federal checks…

    Army general to face court-martial on sex charges…

    So this morning, just this morning, we can see that governments can’t be trusted in nearly any way, shape or form yet the idiots here, there and everywhere want the hundreds of millions of law abiding among us to turn what’s left of our liberties over to the psychopath puppets that nominally control the reins of power. Their reward for failing miserably at everything in which we’ve entrusted them to handle is to reward them with almost godlike power over us thus leaving ourselves defenseless. Any of you fools that actually think this way deserve the fate you wish to impose on the rest of us.

    • Benjamin December 19, 2012, 6:24 pm

      “It is a safe place. It must be because there is no way that it can’t be.”

      They’ll be saying that even as they see people being put into mass graves. All the more if it is the people who whine about liberty, the people who “ruin” the world that isn’t and never was.

  • mukesh December 19, 2012, 5:33 pm

    I am sure in this group are people who:
    believe in the end of the world
    believe in rapture
    believe in the “coming” apocylpse
    have constructed bunkers
    have arms and ammo that they believe can crush the Govt. defence forces
    and other wing nuttery that borders on lunacy.

    • redwilldanaher December 19, 2012, 5:49 pm

      I’m sure you’re mostly wrong…

    • Rampage December 19, 2012, 10:04 pm

      @mukesh

      Your spelling is atrocious, by the way. Speaks to your credibility. Anyone who cannot speak or write intelligently can also not think intelligently in my view.

      Nevertheless, I have an assault rifle (Korean made Daewoo K2), a closet full of .226 ammo, a Beretta 92FS 9mm pistol (choice of the US army as their officer’s side arm), a 2nd closet full of 9mm ammo, a Charter Arms Bulldog (44 spec) at my desk in case of a surprise home invasion, and my keltec concealed handgun (for when I travel from southern Texas to my birthplace and the home of my siblings in Indiana).

      Regarding your comment: “have arms and ammo that they believe can crush the Govt. defence forces”. You meant “defense” of course, I have no allusions of being able to take on the Urban Fighting trained US troops in full body armor, night vision goggles, supported by Abrams tanks, drones, and Black-hawk or Cobra helicopters. That would be suicide for sure. But I don’t think it will come to that. My self defense armaments are meant to keep YOU and other malcontents at bay. And believe me… in the Brave new world envisioned by Obama and his minions, there will be an abundance of malcontents!

  • Bruce December 19, 2012, 7:19 am

    As regarding guns in the home:

    For every one time a gun is used to injure or kill an intruder, it is used:

    > 11 times for attempted and completed suicides.

    > 7 times for criminal assaults and homicides (one member of the household on another, the vast majority being spouse on spouse).

    > 4 times for accidental shooting injuries and deaths (the vast majority being household members under the age of 16).

    (Arthur Kellermann, New England Journal of Medicine)

    • redwilldanaher December 19, 2012, 4:28 pm

      “…My view that a society is better off without guns is just based on my understanding of human behavior based on psychology and sociology.”

      So these views were formed in a place where the 20th century didn’t happen and in current times only State Media is available to you?

    • Rampage December 19, 2012, 10:28 pm

      Bruce,

      My handguns are intended for the first mentioned “kill (not injure) an intruder.

      True some are used for suicide and murder, but they are usually purchased with that specific intent in mind.

      Therefore, the background check should go deeper than fingerprints. It should be a full questionaire similar to the ones given by many corporate human resource departments when applying for a job to determine the candidates state of mind,attitues and ability to function in a group setting.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 4:30 pm

      We can start by asking the obvious questions….

      Like “Why do you NEED a gun?”

    • redwilldanaher December 20, 2012, 5:40 pm

      “I need a gun because I want to exercise my constitutional right to have one.”

      Another issue that proves it is time for SECESSION. NOW, NOT LATER, NOW.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 20, 2012, 7:49 pm

      Secession from what, Red?

      Serious question.

    • redwilldanaher December 20, 2012, 8:58 pm

      From the certainty-to-be-much-more-Orwellianized forcibly united states of Amerika…

      Before it’s too late.

      If a “citizen” has yet to figure out that the experiment formerly known as the USA has been effectively over for some time, they must be delusional. It is over. Has been for some time and is on it’s way to complete and total “Lockdown”. Does anyone honestly think that the Marxists/Statists that hold nominal power on this debt plantation will not follow the same paths as the dictatorial, murderous psychopaths before them?

      Go ask Banana Boat Harry if you don’t believe me or even Django Untalented… Ask any of today’s popular cultists/racists, even Electric Company Morgan or Samuel L. Scenery Chewer.

      For God’s sake these twists openly want to emulate them. Get your state out while it still can via peaceful secession. The cult of this puppet idiot is strong and being made stronger every day with intentionally increased government dependency combined with nonstop 24/7 State media propaganda.

      Fanaticism now makes so much more sense to me as I witness these days of twilight.

    • gary leibowitz December 21, 2012, 4:05 am

      Bruce,

      No one heard you, and no one will. A 22 to 1 odds? I guess these people love the long shot.

    • DK December 21, 2012, 11:56 am

      Bruce/Gary,
      To put it simply…

      As regarding guns in the home:

      For every one time a gun is used to injure or kill an intruder, it is used:

      > 11 times for attempted and completed suicides.

      Okay, next you’ll ban having cars parked in garages, or you’ll ban knives. I guess next is rope? Are you going to start putting nets outside buildings?
      Furthermore, whom are you (or we) to decide how someone’s life ends?

      > 7 times for criminal assaults and homicides (one member of the household on another, the vast majority being spouse on spouse).

      Okay, next you’ll ban knives, I guess next is rope? What else can people commit those acts with? People assault others over the score at baseball games in this country. You think banning a certain weapon is going to change that?

      > 4 times for accidental shooting injuries and deaths (the vast majority being household members under the age of 16).

      People do stupid things and all kinds of accidents occur constantly (some may say those are not accidents), you cannot outlaw idiocy. Just as much as you can’t outlaw people being intoxicated and doing such things, or people with a “history of mental issues” from doing so.

      (Arthur Kellermann, New England Journal of Medicine; Responses DK)

      While we’re on the subject, I don’t see the credibility/relevance of Arthur Kellermann (of the New England Journal of Medicine?).

      Honestly, I don’t need some corrupt bureaucrat, who supposedly “represents me,” in Washington to negotiate/dictate my life away, I think my own home state is a much better place to handle that alongside my neighbors.

  • mario cavolo December 19, 2012, 7:08 am

    Dear All,

    I do truly understand that on the surface the suggestion that one should arm oneself in America, THAT particular country experiencing the particular circumstances of guns and violence and warping values.

    I DO truly understand. I do also understand that unfortunately, the more and more people who arm themselves will not help but will in fact accelerate the problem, the country will descend further into hell.

    Why? Because the associated issues must be addressed in terms of the social values and behavioral/psychological issues in that society will not be addressed as they should. The will of American leadership is consistently and demonstrably not “of the people, by the people, for the people.” Most everyone here at Rick’s forum know all the reasons why the system is rotten.

    My wife and I just finished watching Season I of Homeland. What does America expect when those are the kinds of TV shows that are most popular? Think all you want that you are independent thinkers. Individually you are, but in insisting on your individualist approach, you are deeply discounting the power of the principles behind psychology and sociology across a group. You ARE much more than you want to believe influenced by the behaviors and environment all around you.

    Go ahead then. Go out as Rick suggested and buy yourself a gun to protect your loved ones. Every responsible citizen should be armed? THAT is a society WHERE on planet earth? In fact, that is what is happening at the sales counters. And watch the problem get much much worse.

    You say “I dont’ care, I just am responsible to protect my own family” Again, sounds great on paper, but in context of reality in that country, it doesn’t fly and it won’t fly. You are discounting that you live inside the world of a particular society.

    Based on the types of behavior the government, the media, the television/movie industry and other big biz organizations are promoting and condoning as normal, as reality, the violence problem in America is going to continue worsening. It is a country I fear is going to descend into levels of socia violence as bad as found in the two thousand year old Middle Eastern conflicts.

    Lastly, historically such descents from peak to trough of a society, such as the rise and fall of the Roman empire, normally last for several centuries, not decades.

    Prayers and faith, discernment and good government without special interests are needed more than ever in the United States of America, Mario

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 19, 2012, 8:15 am

      I tend to agree Mario. The knee jerk reaction here has gone towards the old code of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” kind of thinking that is disheartening. More enlightened thinkers disavowed those ideas millenia ago and brought us rational codes of justice to match civilized codes of acceptable social behaviour. The shrill voices of revenge and wall building do nothing to foster a safer more civilized nation. This story has morphed into pure unadultrated fear peddling and reached new heights of insanity as guns fly off the shelves by the millions. If more weapons makes us all safer then why is the murder rate, incarceration rate, violence level and disharmony greater in the US than almost anywhere else on the planet except a few violent African dictatorships? Are we really headed for social Armageddon on this continent? I usually respect Ricks point of view but this time I think he is off-base and just pumping up the lowest common denominator on the basis of fear brought about by an exceptional unusual event. Do we have massacres in every town these days? Do we fear for our lives at every turn of the corner? Is this Germany WWII…..I do not think so.

      &&&&&&

      Absolutely nothing to do with revenge, Cam. If I’m in a public place and some nut-job starts spraying bullets, I want an alternative to dying defenseless. RA

    • Erin December 19, 2012, 9:53 am

      Mario,
      What the hell do you think is gonna happen? Is everybody going to start shooting everybody else because they have a gun? You are way off base. You just don’t believe in a society where freedom is just that.

      You, like any […] liberal, want to control everything we do because “you” believe it will be better that way. Not gonna work. “You” don’t know shit and “you” certainly don’t know what is good for anybody else except yourself.

      Where does “your” regulation end […]? Drunk drivers kill many thousands of innocent people including children. Alcoholism destroys families and ruins lives. Why is alcohol not being taken away from the people? Where is your outrage with that? Don’t you need to protect us from ourselves and others with that? Are you gonna tell me that alcohol is not more destructive than a gun? And the list will just keep going on and on.

      Stay out of it and let the people grieve and figure it out. We can start fixing things by realizing that art imitates life…Bad tv, Bad video games, Bad drugs, Bad morality = Bad things.

      We will recover and adjust. The people and their faith are much stronger than “you”!

    • Erin December 19, 2012, 12:01 pm

      Mario,
      The more I read your liberal crap, the more I can’t stand your point of view because if society does go down the path into hell that you say, it will be because your approval of the repeated plundering of the people of this nation by bailing out our corrupt banking system and all the continued lies being repeated over and over about this fraud of an economy will be the reason. These are the real threats. People will continue to feel disconnected when we are told one thing, but the reality is just the opposite.

    • mario cavolo December 19, 2012, 12:27 pm

      Hi Cam, you know I easily can think that, yes if someone in the movie theatre or at the school had a gun, then they could have quickly put the perpetrator down.

      I would like to be that hero, I really would. I would feel sad yet proud that I acted quickly, that I protected and saved everyone. I would gladly accept the Mayor’s gold star and be interviewed on TV for being the good citizen. But that’s only how it works in Hollywood; even the well–trained police themselves will tell us that in real life, the random and emotional variables come into play and more often than not there will be more unintended consequences, as Bruce notes below….Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo December 19, 2012, 12:32 pm

      Hi Erin,

      “because your approval of the repeated plundering of the people of this nation by bailing out our corrupt banking system”

      You can’t possibly be talking about me!

      Why do some people here keep calling me a liberal? I am completely uninvolved in politics. If anything I am a conservative, traditional Roman Catholic and therefore more of a Republican. But I do not even think of such politics at all when I am writing about important matters, so while anyone is welcome to argue thoughts with me here, I don’t accept the political labeling at all. My view that a society is better off without guns is just based on my understanding of human behavior based on psychology and sociology. Keep me out of your politics, thanks.

      Cheers, Mario

    • redwilldanaher December 19, 2012, 3:56 pm

      I never thought I’d be happy to learn that God made me one of the less enlightened but thanks to you two I’m certainly giving thanks at this moment.

      You are so “enlightened” that you prefer the murders of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of defenseless innocents to that of hundreds. Go ahead and total all the gun-based mass murders in the history of Amerika and you will see that it amounts to an eye drop worth when compared to the seas of red that are filled with the blood of defenseless dissenters.

      It’s as if you are blind to the fact that psychopaths hold the reins of power everywhere these days. If you don’t feel like fools after reading this far then please continue reading. If you still don’t after that, please let me know and I’ll come back and b!tchslap you both a little more…

      20th Century Democide

      2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]

      3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide

      II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS

      4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
      5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
      6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
      7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

      III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS

      8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
      9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
      10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
      11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
      12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
      13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
      14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse

      IV 4,145,000 VICTIMS: SUSPECTED MEGAMURDERERS

      15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
      16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico
      17. 1,066,000 Murdered? Feudal Russia

    • mario cavolo December 19, 2012, 4:15 pm

      Hi RWD,

      Well you’re certainly right. Where you are missing the point is that you are not looking at the situation in the context of the reality. If a country without guns has bad government in charge who will slaughter its people, those people are screwed. That’s a risk.

      As myself taking a risk, I prefer living in China where crime is very low and there are no guns. There are many other countries across the world who are the same. However, if those in charge of any of those countries decide its slaughter time, we will be more likely to die without a weapon to defend myself.

      Right?

      That’s complete utter bullshit and you are dead wrong.

      You can’t defend yourself with your balloon popgun, a .38 pistol, a slingshot, a bow and arrow or an AK 47 against an entire country’s military regime who will blow up your neighborhood with one shot from a F1 fighter if in fact that is what those in power decide they will do. Obama is not Abe Lincoln and we are not on the Gettysburg battlefield in the 1800’s.

      They didn’t teach you that at the pistol range? You think arming everyone is going to help against the aircraft carrier they park offshore and use to start firing missiles at you?

      That’s ridiculous Wayne. If that’s what they decide to do, that’s it, you’re a victim, you can’t stop it, get over it. That’s the way life on this earth today is.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 19, 2012, 7:47 pm

      Fair enough, Red. I should not have used the word “enlightened” as it is clearly a loaded term and would put off anyone on the other side of the debate. Seems I got caught up in the emotional nature of this thread too.

    • redwilldanaher December 20, 2012, 2:28 am

      Sorry Mario but you’re dead wrong and obviously you’re unhinged over this issue. How many fighters do u think they have? How many carriers? How does one occupy Amerika from the air or from a carrier deck? You’re clearly a considerate man but your spineless defeatism further sickens me…

    • mario cavolo December 20, 2012, 1:00 pm

      Hi Erin,

      I understand!

      Alcohol….don’t you need to protect us from ourselves and others with that? Yes, right, alcohol destroys more lives than guns.

      And fooling around on your spouse causes marriage to be destroyed, so we shoul outlaw that too.

      Of course that’s ridiculous. However, guns are not alcohol. Guns make it possible for violence to escalate and they belong only in military situations or benign situations, not in the middle of a powder keg which is what American society has become. Its an emotional powder keg Erin and arming everyone will make it worse, not better exactly because of what you said and Rick has said “The society is sick.”…Bad tv, Bad video games, Bad drugs, Bad morality = Bad things. Yes, that’s right and that’s why guns are a problem in that society but not in other societies. That’s my position. But it has nothing to do with my wanting to tell other people how to live their lives.

      Cheers, Mario

    • redwilldanaher December 20, 2012, 5:49 pm

      Y’all are traders right? “Where’s your REAL downside?” Ask yourselves that question. History overflows with example after example of the fact that the State becomes mass murderers or enslaves their populations. THAT’S YOUR REAL DOWNSIDE. There is no comparison between death tolls of mass murder and random acts of evil. Which is exactly what the framers knew and has been lost on y’all.

      How have the modern regulations worked in banking? On fall street? The government has failed at everything, miserably and your solution is to disarm the innocent and turn even more power over to a government that’s been spitting in their faces for decades. AND to top it all off, your “solutions” will never stop a madman intent on mass murder.

      Ask yourselves how we have porous borders that terrorists can stroll over anytime and yet this latest round of terror was pulled off not by our sworn enemies but by a kid without a worldly clue.

      Secession. Now.

  • lorenzo December 19, 2012, 6:53 am

    I’m from Canada and we have strict gun control laws, and and I’m happy we do. We do have some gun crime, but is rare from handguns smuggled from the US. I hear stories people get cutoff on the highway and then they get shot, because someone has a temper flair up and then they pull out their handgun. When you have a gun the violence can escalate. So I guess for us Canadian’s our culture is different since we have a strong stance against guns. I guess the situation in the US is different, there’s so many guns there’s no way to turn back and if you don,t own one then you may be at a disadvantage when it comes time to defend yourself.

  • gary leibowitz December 19, 2012, 4:28 am

    I can now see why MY words are so distrubing to you that I should be banned.

    Disturbing is a good word to use with this bunch. The twisted logic that is used would cause any computer program to ABEND.

    The frustration level from not seeing total economic ruin might just cause one on YOU to be the next top headline. Imagine being angry all these years because pain and suffering has not yet come. What do you call such people?

    outta here…..

    btw, my fictional bets are doing fictionally well. Looks like I have to wait till early next year to enter my next fictional bet. Never mind, you really don’t believe the market is anywhere near what the lying wall street thieves are posting anyway. We are really living in “The Matrix”.

    • KS December 19, 2012, 5:25 am

      **Ignore Mode ON**

  • mukesh December 19, 2012, 3:45 am

    This is how sensible gun laws work:
    On April 28, 1996, a gunman opened fire on tourists in a seaside resort in Port Arthur, Tasmania. By the time he was finished, he had killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. It was the worst mass murder in Australia’s history.
    Twelve days later, Australia’s government did something remarkable. Led by newly elected conservative Prime Minister John Howard, it announced a bipartisan deal with state and local governments to enact sweeping gun-control measures. A decade and a half hence, the results of these policy changes are clear: They worked really, really well.

    At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia. The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.) In the wake of the tragedy, polls showed public support for these measures at upwards of 90 percent.

  • Earl December 19, 2012, 12:49 am

    Wiyh this “logic”, why not just arm every adult with one pocket nuke each. That way, we will have world peace too.

    No guns for or near the mentally unstable. Extensive background checks, complete with references. No f##king guns should be available that belong in a war zone.

    • Robert December 19, 2012, 10:14 pm

      Please define “war zone”

      is not a war simply one group of people trying to kill another…?

      and that is different than mass-murder how, exactly?

    • max lopez December 20, 2012, 5:09 am

      does anyone else find it alittle strange that 2 of these type of events have taken place this year??

      could it be some type of handlers would like to steer the heard toward strict gun control??

      would a dissarmed populace be easier to control in some cataclysmic event??

      could it be that these events are linked in some way, ie what were both the alleged killers fathers suppósted to do something soon? (think libor scandal.)

      could it be that things are accelerating faster and faster out of control??

      dont be supprised if there is another event sooner than latter. and in california, three c’s (control, control control
      but please, god ,intervene and dont let it happen..

      hmmm…. might be time to connect some dots and open some eyes.???

      maybe just all a bunch of qurirky coincidense.??
      ps i know my spelling is horrible .. me pardona.

  • ED December 19, 2012, 12:29 am

    For the people who are uncomfortable carrying guns that’s why we hire security guards.We have security guards everywhere there is money,why not everywhere there are children?

  • Jill December 19, 2012, 12:06 am

    LOL, I am amazed at the lengths some commenters here will go to, in order to try to drive away another commenter who disagrees with them in some way. When the “enemy” (someone one disagrees with you)– in particular, a female commenter– makes a serious comment, let’s change the topic to masturbation, shall we?

    • Robert December 19, 2012, 12:51 am

      Jill-

      He was not changing the topic.

      He was exposing the fallacy of your statement.

      All he did was take your own words, and change the context in order to make you understand how laughably stupid your excuse making sentiment looked to a rational thinker

      Let’s play again, but without reference to masturbation… Again, this is YOUR original statement:

      Regarding Pizza. It is possible that some people become violent due to eating pizza. But maybe not. Most people who eat pizza have no such problems.

      Another possible explanation is that these violent folks were very depressed & agitated BEFORE they ate pizza. And the pizza did not work for them, as they do not for many people. So they did what they would have done even if they had not eaten the pizza I.e. they may have became violent due to the hunger they were eating the pizza for– not because of eating the pizza itself.

      Your entire statement can be paraphrased thusly:

      “Which came first, the chicken or the egg…?”

  • Jill December 18, 2012, 7:26 pm

    Regarding SSRI medications. It is possible that some people become violent due to SSRI medications. But maybe not. Most people who take them have no such problems.

    Another possible explanation is that these violent folks were very depressed & agitated BEFORE they were on the drugs. And the drugs did not work for them, as they do not for many people. So they did what they would have done even if they had not taken the meds. I.e. they may have became violent due to the mental disorder they were taking drugs for– not because of the drugs.

    • Oregon December 18, 2012, 11:24 pm

      Ohhhh. Uh Huhhh.

      Jill, I wonder if the same could be said for masturbation? Let’s try…

      “Regarding masturbation. It is possible that some people become violent due to masturbation. But maybe not. Most people who masturbate have no such problems.

      Another possible explanation is that these violent folks were very depressed & agitated BEFORE they masturbated. And the masturbation did not work for them, as it does not for many people. So they did what they would have done even if they had not masturbated I.e. they may have became violent due to the mental disorder they were masturbating for– not because of the masturbation.”

      I’m just say’n.

      On a different note, Robert, well said as usual.

      I think I most agree with maddog, however, about what I learned this weekend…

      This was an anomaly. People are killed all the time. Sometimes by other people, but not really that often. Obviously it’s not happening very often, just look at the population growth of humans on this planet. It should not have happened to children, but then life isn’t fair is it.

      Lot’s of sheeple need an excuse to get emotional, like when Michael Jackson died. Lot’s of politicians need an excuse to develop an agenda, like when 9/11 happened. This event satisfies them.

      I don’t feel anything for either. They don’t affect me. That is my truth.

      I have a couple kids in elementary school and I feel no less confident dropping them off at school today because every time I drop them off anywhere I know there is a chance I will not see them alive again. That’s life. One has to consider anomalies and act accordingly.

      Martin… If ever you were to arrive home and find someone raping and or murdering loved ones at knife point or gun point, I hope you have a good speech prepared to end the whole thing without violence.

      Personally, I will keep my guns.

  • Robert December 18, 2012, 6:58 pm

    I am going to offer you all a metaphorical perspective:

    If God said to the people “Lay down your arms, and share the wealth of your knowledge, and the work of your plow, and the world will finally be at peace.” Would you believe God?

    Of course you would, right?

    It is SATAN, not God, who leads humanity to the alter of human elitism. And when such elites say “Lay down your arms, and share the wealth of your knowledge, and the work of your plow, and the world will finally be at peace.” they are NOT speaking God’s message.

    Because, the very second that we oblige the wishes of these “wise and noble” cowards, Satan sends yet another demon squire into an elementary school to prove to us yet again that Satan is what he has always been… A liar, and a thief- and that he will reward you for believing his lies, by stealing from you whatever he wishes – including your children.

    God is NOT a liar – God has provided us the wisdom to understand that Satan exists to fool us into believing he is God.

    Mario Cavulo – I read your emphatic viewpoints above about “disarming everyone” and I can’t rationalize such words coming from a father’s head. Those could have been YOUR children.

    I ask you to look deep into yourself as you ponder the following question:

    “If I had been in that school lobby with a 357 on my hip, would I have drawn it? Would I have risked everything I’ve ever had, everything I have now, and everything I will ever have, in order to defend the RIGHTS of a group of children to enjoy their innocence?”

    I can’t imagine any of you answering “no” to this question- and if any of you actually have the honesty and temerity to respond with: “Yes, I would have run away rather than fight”, then at least the nature of your sheepish cowardice would earn my understanding (if not my respect).

    You see, the only rational, mature, and intellectually honest emotional sentiment ANY human adult should be feeling after learning of this horrific event is:

    “Why wasn’t I there to stop this?”

    Why wasn’t ANYONE there to stop this?

    It can be argued that the adults who gave their lives shielding the children did so because they understood the nobility of sacrifice, but it is a shame of all shames that they concurrently believed Satan’s lie…

    That is all I have to say, except an additional “bravo” to John F. above for not believing that the personal preservation (and guarantee) of his children’s security is NOT any form of “paranoid extremism”

    The State owes you NOTHING, and the State will provide you NOTHING when Satan comes calling.

    • Benjamin December 19, 2012, 2:21 am

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8RDWltHxRc

      No definition of home invasion. I wonder what else is undefined, so as a to make confiscation justified?

      I could write a library of thought on that point. But suffice to say, the primary reason crime rates intitially SEEM to drop is because armed governments carry out the bulk of crime that potential criminals would otherwise have to go out and commit themselves. Why would they want to take the risk, if disarmed producers must, by gov force, provide them with enough of what said recipient wants and needs?

      Of course, such governments in seize-and-redistribute systems would not count their “Robin Hood” acts in the crime count, nor let us know that they are artificially suppressing the numbers.

  • Rick Ackerman December 18, 2012, 5:19 pm

    From a friend of mine, here’s a note on how some parents of Jewish day schoolers at a school on the East Coast are taking action:

    We are a Jewish family, and all our minor children attend a Jewish elementary school. The school itself does its best to maintain a low profile, but, due to its academic excellence, its appearance and location are well known in the area.

    We Jews, whether in Israel or here, are acutely aware of the continuing threat to us and our children, no matter where we live. It is not paranoia, as I’m not talking about ‘imagined’ threats, am I?

    Because of our community’s ability to accurately comprehend threats and threat-levels, we have elected not to do what is currently common in this civilization: (1) pretend threats don’t exist, and (2) wager our lives on police arriving sometime before the last shot is fired.

    So, this is what we’ve all agreed upon and instituted:

    Each father, including me, is on a mandatory, rotating duty-schedule. Each of us is thus ‘on-duty’ several days each month, all day. Yes, we have to take days off from work. We are posted in the back of each classroom, visibly armed with both an AR and a pistol. All our weapons are constantly loaded and ready, and can be plainly seen as such. Each child thus knows
    and understands that there is always a father, their own or that of one of one of their schoolmates, there with them in the classroom all the time, and he is able, willing, and committed to defending them with his life.

    We consider this system the only logical and effective solution to our security challenges.

    Again, it is as low-profile as we can reasonably make it, and from the outside, a casual observer can’t see any of this, but all of us, children, parents, teachers, and administrators know, and are thankful for, what we have
    put in place.

    And, as you might say, we don’t care who likes it!”

    Comment: Americans are responding to the latest mass-murder incident, not with cries for additional restrictions on our freedom, but by going out and buying guns! ARs, XCRs, PTRs, SIG/556s, Kalashnikovs, M1As, et al, as well as magazines and ammunition, are currently being bought-up so quickly, dealers can’t keep them in stock.

    Even requiem anti-gun editorials are currently muted, as Americans are in no mood to be piously lectured, by media elitists and political gas-bags alike, that we are too stupid to own guns!

    The Jewish Community, at least in the case described above, is smart enough to perceive real problems and come up with real solutions, not just the same old tired, fictitious, worthless fluff suggested by most politicians.

    Good show, guys!
    John F.

  • Benjamin December 18, 2012, 4:12 pm

    Here’s a real sparkler of a gem…

    http://brendanoneill.co.uk/

    “The critics of America’s gun culture casually point the finger of blame at the more backward elements in American society, particularly at rifle-toting rednecks […]

    But look at the photo of Adam Lanza […] Do you really see Southern-style gun culture in these videos and words and images, or do you see a different, more modern culture at work? I see youngsters raised to consider themselves little gods, who see their self-esteem as king and who believe their angst must always be taken seriously.”

    For a Marxist (yuck!), or any type of person at all, Mr. O’Neil sure is a sharp tack. These killers have just been conditioned to be too full of themselves! Could it be that simple? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But if you look at the way all of Lanza’s last day played out, it sure does seem to be that simple.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 18, 2012, 5:38 pm

      Seems the random violent incidents engendered by a disenfranchised, spoiled, needy, demanding, entitled generation of social misfits, outcasts and ne’er do wells brought up on a steady diet of sick, violent and outrageous movie/video/gamer mayhem and murder are becoming more and more common all the time.

      Gee, who would have thought it….?

    • Benjamin December 19, 2012, 1:38 am

      Cam,

      You kind of missed the point. Culture of violence? No. The guy was not some programmed robot, whether by video games or “gun culture”. Nor was he damaged or controlled by drugs, whatever their source, as suggested by many others. HE was simply a brat. Check it out…

      By comitting suicide just before the police arrived, he was able to perform the whole act on his own terms, and not have to face the downside of being a momentary star; no punishment metted out by some unwashed others; no having to listen to the questions from yet more unwashed, non-him others; no having to face a future of having his moment, only to be locked up for the rest of his quickly forgotten existence. Indeed, as has been said many times by many others (here and elsewhere), he chose a school because he knew no one would be able to interrupt.

      But do we really have a society that passively or actively encourages narcissism, a personality disorder, as Mr. O’Neil and others say? I can say much, but to keep it short and simple… The nature of the disorder (not illness) precludes a social cause. Think about it… If he was being given everything he wanted, a “life” of moments that were all about him, then why did he go out and take what he figured he lacked and deserved?

      We musn’t let ourselves be held hostage by brats. If we blame this and that… anything but HIM… we would then be feeding that extreme sense of entitlement. So, I say we’re (society in general) doing good, in that regard. We mostly don’t feed the brats. That’s why the get extreme. Speaking of which…

      Narcissitic people hate being up-staged. Look at the reaction from so many politicians, media/social commentators, etc. They want the “rewards” of being the first to alter a fundamental part of the Constitution and the U.S. Not because they care, but because they were up-staged by a “man”-child.

  • ter December 18, 2012, 7:53 am

    Bully for you, Rick! Get your concealed carry permit. More important is choosing a handgun you’re comfortable with– 9 millimeters are good first pistols. Then practice, practice, practice. Even if you rarely leave home with it, having it by your bed, in your desk, or wherever you can get to it quickly will be comforting. Some people want one in the car, as well, although it stays in the glove compartment.

  • maddog December 18, 2012, 7:41 am

    learned two things this weekend
    it’s bad luck to bring bananas on a boat
    and why doesn’t Justin Bieber shop at Sports Authority?
    because he likes DICKS!

  • Anthony F December 18, 2012, 6:38 am

    Just in case, I have a 12-gauge shot gun…
    But looking to resolve some the problems developed in the last 50 years Richard Louv has written some good books “Last Child in the woods, and The Nature Principle”. He conducted a documented research with 3000 children…who since the exodus from agriculture based activities are now lacking an exposure to Nature related activities. This has evolved in a rise of obesity, attention disorder and depression….. which may explain some of the disorderly behavior in our society.

    Additionally, Louv documents the importance of the natural world to our health, our ability to learn, our creativity, happiness and our spirit.

    On Thursday the 13 I actually made an Earth Science presentation to 100 4th graders, and they were amazingly cooperative and engaged. I implemented some of the techniques I learned from a Norwegian writer 30 years ago… visual, to the point, engaging, fun… etc.

    Since I come from an IT background, where we use analytic creative tools, that is easy for me to do. Unfortunately, even as the children are willing to learn I have noticed, that at least in regards to Earth Science/Nature the schools are using primitive, baby like tools developed for the last 30 or so years.
    If you bring them New and better tools … the reply will almost always be … we are too busy fighting with our bow and arrows,… we don’t have the time to look at your new machine guns… (well that is an analogy a good IBM salesman used years ago !)
    Then… everyone other than a few enlighted ones have embraced evolution theory… we just developed from molecules, etc.. so who is God ? We do not need him right?

    It is actually so inviting for people like myself to engage in this amazing opportunity to help creating a better society! One more thing… Nature activities are good for your health… you bet ! I am retired and very physically active, and I have not so far needed a doctor or his drugs for the last 10 years. I actually contribute $ 1000 a year to Medicare and get nothing in return !
    Obama wants to do something ???

    Just send him my post !
    Cheers Mario

  • Bruce December 18, 2012, 6:06 am

    Americans who carry guns are 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens (2009, Charles Branas, University of Pennsylvania).

    I wish you luck, you are going to need it.

    &&&&&

    Branas? Isn’t he the guy who calculates official U.S. unemployment and inflation? RA

    • redwilldanaher December 18, 2012, 6:47 pm

      Thanks Bruce. I have always felt much better being entirely defenseless…

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 18, 2012, 9:03 pm

      Matthew 26:52

      “Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword”.
      ———————–
      Hmm…I wonder what he meant?

    • redwilldanaher December 19, 2012, 3:33 pm

      It’s likely he meant don’t be the aggressor, try to solve issues another way.

      He didn’t mean do not act in self defense.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 19, 2012, 4:49 pm

      Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? What we are seeing is the weaponization at the household level that has some parallels to those events of the Sixties. We are hearing now about a buildup of firepower in the home that is almost without precedent. If nations can come near to going over the edge based on a buildup of arms is it not conceivable that we are heading down the wrong path by also arming excessively (against an enemy that is vague if not unidentified)? I think the expression to live by the sword and die by the sword is an apt one in this case. It suggests that risks rise for both parties even where tools of war are ostensibly present for the purposes of peace. On that point though I would also have to agree that a nuclear capability is a terrific deterrant to other potential aggressors. Applying the same idea to handguns appears to make sense from that perspective. At first anyway. The problem arises when one side is overwhelming armed versus their adversary as this invites a buildup at a competitive level. I worry though that as more citizens embrace guns at the household level that such a buildup will begin taking place across the spectrum of society and this does not make me feel safer. You see, if all your neighbors have a gun then you are also obliged to keep one to keep the odds even. It drives me nuts that the insane actions of one individual might cause me to alter my behavior and waste my energy and time to match his firepower. The Wild West is instructive here too. The shoot-outs were legendary and almost everyone was packing in those days. In the end, I do not think anyone can adequately prepare for the acts of a lone madman.

  • KS December 18, 2012, 5:35 am

    The point is of course, that firearms serve only one purpose: to maim or kill a live being(hunting included). But they are the only equalizer between uneven forces of any kind, and the only way to enact an immediate and deadly response to any deadly attack on oneself, so that only statistics start playing a role. 1 armed attacker against 3-5 potential armed defenders is always a statisticaly losing proposition, which is the best/only way to suppress and destroy any maniac who might appear.

    Statistically, the US goverment is underwhelmed and outnumbered in a potential confrontation against the populace, so that is their only sense of worry.

    I repeat my point, that whoever is the statist couch philosopher here that makes their general observation from the comfort of their house, has never had a REAL confrontation with evil(the kind that guns can kill).

    Your rosy picture of the world, where the government is the brotherly hand of help, which tries to protect us from each other and from everything else, real or imagined, is WRONG!

    You have the right and duty to protect your life and the ones around you. I certainly hope that you pro-ban people will get out of the theoretical paradise, and actually get shaken up a little by personal experience. Nothing changes the mind faster than staring at a gun barrell.

    Good luck!

  • L fry December 18, 2012, 3:10 am

    Matthew,

    You are right on Bro .Here in North Ga ,2-3 months ago some yahoo teenager , who was a known behavior problem, Was on SSRI’s-caused a seen +had a weapon. I don’t remember all facts , I think he was killed by sniper police. These SSRI’s are deadly . Parents need to be able to hit their kids again if they are really bad. This would help .

  • Matthew December 17, 2012, 10:47 pm

    There is a spirited discussion going on at Al Korelin‘s site, which you can access by clicking here.

    Here’s a post by ‘Matthew’ that I found particularly interesting:

    Benb, in 1980, the U.S. had 24.6x the population of Sweden. So on a relative basis, there were 517 gun deaths there. To this day, Sweden has a high rate of gun ownership. In Switzerland, ALL males are REQUIRED to keep fully automatic firearms at home. With the exception of Japan, I think guns were still easily obtained in 1980 in the other countries you mentioned.
    You are ignoring the socioeconomic drivers of crime. For instance, why is it that there is much more gun violence in cities with the strictest gun laws -like D.C.? In Wyoming, where everyone is armed to the teeth, gun crime is very, very low. I know that many will simply say that “an armed society is a polite society” but I don’t totally buy that either. In Wyoming there are a lot of hardworking, hard-drinking, low income people. One of the towns I lived in had a population of about 900 and 3 drive-through liquor stores. Altercations were fairly common, yet no one ever went for their guns. I think this is due mostly to the kind of values that are still taught at home there.
    A couple years ago, I had access to detailed information about foreclosures nationwide (for just $600/year), and Wyoming had a tiny fraction of the numbers found nearly everywhere else -even per capita. If you were to subtract Denver/C.Springs, Colorado was very low too. What does this have to do with guns? Old time values. Invariably, it was metro-area collectivists who got in the most trouble financially. The people with the most “education” and highest pay made the dumbest, most irresponsible mistakes. Little do any of them realize, to this day, just how unsophisticated they were/are. They continue to look down their beaks at people who fared much better by exercising common sense and humbly living within their means. Yes, the government and the big banks dangled the carrot, but it was mostly city slickers who took the bait -the same segment that is much more likely to stick their nose in other people’s business and plead with their congress-critters to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING!!! when something scares them. They are educated, but they know nothing. Oh yeah, and they want your guns. They do NOT believe in personal responsibility. Modern liberals are babies just looking to blame someone for anything that displeases them. They don’t care about physical laws, yet they claim to care so much about nature. They have no time for studying cause and effect. Nothing is ever their fault. Randy Marsh is typical…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPpZbXjnx0U
    I almost forgot, even temperature plays a role. It turns out, all the southernmost metro areas see a spike in violence each summer.
    And finally, I would question the source of your numbers. They probably came from an entity that wants global disarmament. There’s a lot of cover to be found in cooked stats, just look at the inflation or employment numbers.

  • jazzmaniac December 17, 2012, 10:40 pm

    Rick’s right on this one though I’m fairly sure he would have been just as opposed to curtailing the widespread dispersal of these killing machines back when we actually had a chance to make a difference. The same is true of our budget woes: there is now nothing to be done. No amount of revenue increases or spending reductions can make a difference. All the hand-wringing makes me ill on both counts. We live in a culture in opposition to reality, a culture of entitlement, victimhood, irresponsibility, fantasy and arrogance. Get used to it, you ragers against injustice and incompetence. This is America.

    &&&&&

    ‘A culture in opposition to reality’ says it all, Jazzmaniac. Sad to think it will take a full-blown Depression to put us back on track. Even then, there are no guarantees that we’ll have something as ‘benign’ as World War II to pull us through on the other end. RA

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 18, 2012, 10:29 am

      Well said Jazz. And as Rick accused in his article above “civilization itself is mentally ill”, a point which I cannot disagree with. A decade of bubble building and wealth creation via theft and misallocation of public resources has not assured any of us a place in the sun. Instead we have bred a nation of youthful malcontents and created an ocean of expectations that are sure to be disappointed. We are all poorer for what has transpired and the conclusion of this period of excess will not be pretty as reality meets face to face with the true nature of our poverty.

  • Mercurious December 17, 2012, 8:53 pm

    Since those on the board here who would like to restrict or ban guns have not objected with the same degree of vehemence to the use of other dedicated or improvised weapons to create mayhem, logic dictates it is the nearly unique capacity of modern guns to inflict large numbers of casualties that motivates their desire to remove them from the public’s hands.

    So I would ask a simple question and would invite replies: Please offer the EXACT number of fatalities within mass murder incidents using non-firearm methods you would need to see before you would make a similar call for the restriction on public access to flatware, crossbows and piano wire.

    • mario cavolo December 18, 2012, 3:27 am

      That’s a complete bullsh!t approach Mercurious, I don’t need to provide you with any statisitics to show you what is plain and obvious to any sane person. By that thinking, everyone should be allowed to have a nuclear bomb in their bedroom and say “Oh, if I can build it I have a right to have it. Who are you to say I can’t have it?”

      This is NOT a subject to philosophize or statisticize on, real live human beings are being mauled down by sick people who have far too easy access to a “device” that they shouldn’t have such easy access to which makes the matter worse, period.

      Cheers, Mario

    • John Jay December 18, 2012, 4:17 am

      Mercurious,
      You can go to fbi.gov and search through all their links, it is all in there.
      I used to have a link to the correct page but I had to do a disc recovery on my web surfing pc when it crashed and it wiped it all clean.
      Actually that was a blessing, I had so much info stored I could not sort through it all.
      Anyway the fbi.gov website has links to all manner of crime statistics if you feel like wading through it all.

  • Marilyn December 17, 2012, 7:33 pm

    The media was completely complicit in snuffing out any mention of the man who – most likely – stopped the Oregon Mall shooter before he could kill more people. Many accounts available online. Here is one:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/media-blackout-oregon-mall-shooter-was-stopped-by-an-armed-citizen?cid=rss

  • daddy warbucks December 17, 2012, 7:10 pm

    Breaking; was this a false flag?

    Mass Shootings Connected To Libor Scandal

    12/1712 by jischinger

    you just can’t make this stuff up…

    The father of Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza, Peter Lanza, was the tax director for General Electric, a corporation that paid -0- taxes on 14.2 billion dollars in profits last year. According to Fabian4Liberty, Peter Lanza was scheduled to testify in the ongoing global LIBOR scandal…>

    ….> In what could only be described an amazing coincidence, the father of Colorado Batman shooter James Holmes, Robert Holmes, was also a LIBOR witness in his position with FICO. According to the link at FICO, Robert Holmes was a ‘Fraud Scientist’.

    • Brad December 18, 2012, 5:29 am

      Until someone proves to me that Mr. Lanza Sr wasn’t supposed to testify to Congress….alongside Robert Holmes Sr a couple weeks after the Batman Theater shooting….the coincidence isn’t coincidence. It explains the why, but someone will have to explain to me “how” they get these kids to go crazy and do these things.

      By the way, Mrs. Lanza apparently worked for the CIA. Here’s a link to what appears to be the most probable explanation: http://www.examiner.com/article/libor-scandal-grows-as-the-fathers-of-two-mass-murderers-were-to-testify

    • Jill December 18, 2012, 6:52 am

      There is no evidence I can find that Mrs. Lanza worked for the CIA. Just the usual Conspiracy Theory type web sites that no one ever heard of. Just because some anonymous person typed a sentence onto the Internet does not mean that it’s true.

    • Brad December 18, 2012, 9:02 am

      Perhaps CIA perhaps not. The weapons reported are agency purchases, not weapons purchased by women. Her collection wasn’t large, but quality. Sig pistols and Bushmaster rifles are not weapons purchased by beginners. The pieces fit.

      Anyway, where she worked isn’t the point, her husband was going to or did testify against the wealthiest people on the planet. Doom to the family.

      While opportunist will use this to further their gun control agenda, it wouldn’t surprise me that Obama wasn’t talking gun control when he said something had to be done to prevent this from happening again. I take that to mean he intends to shut down the shadow program(s) that create these broken minded children.

  • Steven December 17, 2012, 6:31 pm

    Just a short commentary on the unfortunate shooting event on the East Coast. From what I read this morning the individual had a known personality disorder. The shooter was a Goth. And, without a doubt he was a gamer. There existed three warning signs, and I’m going to state I am appalled by a movie trailer I just saw that is going to feed these three warning signs. That movie is about a man who is diagnosed with a brain tumor and then begins a shooting spree with a young girl where people are blown apart, shot down without justification. I’ll take the immediate and then move to the long-term issues.

    Pursuant to Mosaic Law the mother was to control her child. The mother failed. Worse, the mother allowed a child with a personality disorder immediate access to guns, even if it took her son killing her. The mother was to stone the child to death if he was that great a threat to society. The judgment by the Mosaic Law is very clear in hindsight today. The kid did not deserve to live. Be very clear in regard to judgment. The Creator judges and commands the people support his judgments in Law. Therefore the People have failed. The Mosaic Law judges that if the child is dangerous and the parents do not exercise control, they are to be put down by the judgment of the Law.

    The kid had a personality disorder and his mother failed him. The judgment against society’s failures are far greater and more horrific in the consequences of mass failure to find justice in the Mosaic Law. All who saw this kid knew he was Goth. Gothic Nature is an exterior manifestation of organic interior failure, or parenting failure. But, the People do not like the Mosaic Law and believe as legislatively created persons they have all “knowledge” on what is good and bad. The mother failed, and the people failed to obey, all thinking they know what is good and bad upon their own knowledge and teaching from mobocracy rule.

    There is absolute governmental failure because government and nearly all persons think the Mosaic Law is too harsh and that persons should change the rules to fit how they feel in the moment. Gamers. Gamers and nearly all young people are “bored”. This word is so over used it makes me sick. Children sit in front of games. Parents put their children in front of games. The stimulation from birth today is constant. And the best games are blood and violence that should give a living real person post traumatic stress in it blood and gore. Many movies are just as bad. It is not good enough to know that someone has died. The shot must be graphic to stimulate the senses more than the last movie. It is enough to know someone has died historically without looking into the wound to see the pulsing artery.

    What is the answer going to be? Will it be under the Mosaic Law? Or, under the avoidance of democracy both in government and in the population by attacking the ability of the individual to defend himself from the very tyranny that was spoken by Obama – it was the gun’s fault.

    You know the answer don’t you! Obama is not wrong. Obama will never be wrong. Obama will take away the ability of the people to defend themselves from the very mother who is at fault for disobeying the Mosaic Law. Obama and all like him will take away the ability of the people to act for themselves. Obama wants boys to smoke dope like he does. Obama wants the boys to become Goths. Obama wants the children to watch violent gore. Obama wants the children to become bored and more bored until they must smell the blood washing their nostrils. Then there is reality in suicide when the stimulation is too much.

    Obama is just a term of art for the individuals of democracy who will look in the mirror and say – I didn’t do this.

    My worrying mind is left with this one last thing from an ex-SEAL. Watch well, Steve. When there is a need to support gun control there will be incidents. The abilities are that great. Watch and see. It was his story, as well as the story of a Ranger. But, I cannot shake the memory of his words in regard to brainwashing. I don’t know that anything the Man said is true. But, I have watched and seen and see again.

    • Buster December 17, 2012, 7:18 pm

      Very good, Steve. Did you miss out a link, or did I misunderstand your closing comments.
      Also, remember that even accepting the divine wisdom of the Mosaic law, it was still dependent on the interpretation & enforcement by humans of questionable motives. A further complication is that it may well be an ongoing lesson for our rebellious state as humans, & thus further understanding of our predicament is necessary. With this we may correctly conclude that having the law ourselves is not the answer to our problems. The real answer is said to be accepting rightful sovereignty, not just having the blueprint, as judgement itself is what we are lacking as a species. Such is the drawback of having self awareness coupled with self interest, perhaps?
      Understanding & belief of this may keep us from despairing at our human failure & decline into the abyss we seem to be heading towards.
      Hopefully it will all come out in the wash!

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 7:23 pm

      To Mario, Jack, and the like. Please stay in, or go to China, Austrialia, Japan and the like. There is a remnant of this Nation left that is based upon Individual Liberty, not subjects seeking protection from the king and dying for the king to keep them slaves. You are correct. Over 50% of the U.S. now want to be subjects to Lord Bush, Lord Obama, Lord Clinton et.al. Please leave, you are a liabilty on society, good government, and Liberty. Thank you Mario!! Speficially, Mario you made your choice to run away. Please don’t try to turn the several States into China so you can return.

      Please write to congress and pressure them to move to China. Ask Obama as well to take his slaves to China to rule the Chinese.

      To be a Citizen of this Nation one is required to defend her, and be armed as the unorganized yet armed people that keep Assad from happening, Japan from invading, China within her shores.

      Twenty-six souls in a school, or six million in an oven, 40,000 unarmed in Syria – you choose.

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 7:30 pm

      Being somewhat graffic Buster. The Law is. Have sex with your mother you die. Do not confuse the Mosaic Law with the ordiances of men, like the Talmud base for current case law ‘precident’ practice. Sunday is not the Sabbath, and Sabbath is 1/10th of the Ten Commandments so worshiped by the same who ignor what was Commanded. Evil will always find a way to say it isn’t so.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:47 pm

      Thanks for explaining Mosaic Law, Steve, alot of meaningful points there.

      On the other stuff that you and a few others have written, this is a scary thread and I’m out of it.

    • Chuck December 17, 2012, 9:39 pm

      several things were totally misrepresented by the media.
      1. his father was shot – wrong
      2. his mother worked as a teacher and was shot at school – wrong
      3. he used his bushmaster .223 rifle to do the shooting, the rifle was left in his trunk of the car – so he only used the pistols – so wrong again
      4. he was a gamer and therefore exposed to violence in gaming – wrong (btw this has been proven to be an incorrect hypothesis)
      5.his older brother was the shooter – wrong

      I am still very sickened by the thought of children being shot by pistol…..very disturbing…..not that pistols are any better than ‘assault rifle’ or whatever pc term you call them.

    • Jeff W. December 17, 2012, 10:15 pm

      That gamer hypothesis is full of crap. That’s like saying that “well he was known to habitually drink water so I think there might be a link there.” Depending on the source, anywhere from about 1/3 to 44% of the U.S. population plays video games (former source: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2012/09/npd-total-number-of-us-video-game-players-drops/1#.UM97r3eYEuU latter source: http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/study-us-rapidly-becoming-a-nation-of-gamers/ ). By those numbers, that’s a lot of people raising red flags! Hell, even my mom and grandparents are a threat apparently.

      Correlation does not imply causation.

  • Anthony F December 17, 2012, 6:18 pm

    From Mario C…….
    and I stated that here in China, any efforts at criminality are met with much harsher punishment as a deterrent and that I agree with those approaches in general….

    Mario, you don’t read the local China News ??….
    Sandy Hook was preceded by shootings in Colorado, Arizona (remember Congresswoman Giffords?), and Oregon, while, looking at the world at large, a slasher injured twenty-two children in China the same day as Sandy Hook and right after Sandy Hook an assailant had to be shot to death by police in Alabama. On Sunday (12/16/12) a man in California was arrested after firing fifty shots at a mall parking lot.
    http://spiritdaily.com/Ivanordeal.htm
    (Over a period of years , after meeting Mr. Brown at the
    Shrine 0ur Lady of The Island, NY, I have come to
    greatly respect his commentaries)
    Anthony

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:39 pm

      Hi Anthony, yes I know but I don’t know what’s your point? Such crimes occur here in China far less often, though the frequency is unfortunately increasing as the society develops.

      Meanwhile, I think we all understand that once a country has reached a certain point of development and problems in the society, a simple answer to then ban guns won’t work without also integrally addressing the other related issues at the same time. Extremely difficult to do, Rick stated the core issues and reality very well inhis article today.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Tiburon December 17, 2012, 6:04 pm

    Making a Killing ~ The Untold Story of Psychotropic Drugging
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLF-C3QErA4

    Did 14 months Zoloft, 15 years past – worked a charm for me – ‘adjusted’ my behavioural responses as advertised. (was also careful to disallow any untoward ‘diagnosis’) But I read “Listening to Prozac” before doing so, and hours of online research, so was prepared for ‘the worst’. Withdrawal (tapered) no problems as well. But I recognize the essential responsibility we all have for our own health decisions.

    One of the lucky, I suppose…’took the Blue Pill’.

    Very heated thread. Being in Canada it’s a debate to which we little relate, being a largely ‘disarmed populace’.

    I don’t advertise I have “restricted firearm licence” and arms; 9 out of 10 here wouldn’t understand. When I dig out of debt I’ll get out to rural residence, where I can legally keep my weapons (we’re not really allowed to refer to them as such – they’re ‘firearms’ here) loaded and available. Meanwhile, should SHTF here in the city, I’ll ‘always be cleaning them’, and so unlocked and clips at hand. Bit of a dance necessary.
    Live in ‘good neighbourhood’, 6 blocks away from “projects” with attendant litany of social ills.
    Anyway, as ‘neutral observer’ – concealed carry for teachers, and mandatory psychological check-ups for the same if/when doing so, seems a no-brainer.
    Be interesting to learn the standards for SSRI RX, rates and indications, in Israel, where basically (also) the majority of the population is armed, or have full auto weapons close at hand or available, yet no homicidal rampages (yet, Thanks G-d).
    Also, be interesting to see the stats for these events in counties in the US where concealed carry is allowed (and look for correlations regarding SSRI RX rates in said counties).
    Follow the money. The linked documentary is worth a look, IMHO. There are many others.

    Georgia Stones?

  • Mac December 17, 2012, 5:46 pm

    it seems like u r mostly all lost in the smoke, in media disinformation, so let’s see what comes out in the next few days…then make opinions…these drug excuses, although possible, don’t seem the whole story… wait, get more info…then act!

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 18, 2012, 10:17 am

      I agree, Mac. This is smoke. A media barrage no less. There is always something bigger behind the cover of a story that becomes the complete focus of the publics attention and diverts the critical issues off the main pages. We need to look deeper and shut off the damn TV before it rots our brains. Something bigger is always brewing when these horrible events carry away our common sense with all the emotion and outrage they generate. I am not heartless but I have seen this play out too many times to ignore how the process works.

  • Tim Craven December 17, 2012, 4:51 pm

    Anyone who really feels gun control will prevent an evil person from doing evil acts is delusional. That is a fact.
    I look at this recent horrific act and try to think of a logical, realistic and doable solution. I have no doubt that if the two teachers who heroically charged this crazed gunman were armed, then they would have been able to neutralize him.
    Unfortunately, the liberal anti-gun lobby will never allow school personnel to be armed.
    So….in my opinion…the next best solution would be for every school to have a few of the larger pepper sprays on hand. If I were a teacher, I would immediately order a couple of the Advanced Products 8.1 Oz. Bear Deterrent Spray .
    This stuff shoots a 30 foot stream of pepper spray…and it works. The Park Service recommends it. Surely it would be better than nothing IMO.
    And unfortunately, anyone who thinks Congress and the President will pass a law which will make us safer is just delusional.

  • Buster December 17, 2012, 4:30 pm

    Just the most awful news.
    The causes & effects are no doubt very complex. I think Michael Moore’s documentary on guns had some interesting points. It found that it wasn’t necessarily the access to guns that was the major cause of gun crime, but rather the gun toting indoctrination being fed into the social mind of the society, without any focus on the responsibility of having one as a protector. It looked almost like a deliberate mind numbing campaign. I’ve no doubt that big pharma also has a major role in this sort of incident, though I wouldn’t underestimate the effect on people that the whole ‘system’ has. The undermining of justice & responsibility can be traced back to TPTB. Society’s been screwed over on every level & respect of anyone or anything has withered. Also, I seem to remember Bob Prechter showing these sorts of incidents, as well as wars, being more prevalent in economic downturns, which are themselves caused by limiting access to money & it’s feel good factor.

    Many years ago I lost 3 close family members at the hands of someone who had been heavily medicated. Probably because he had no access to a gun, it being in the UK, he just used a pair of scissors, but I’m pretty sure that anything would have sufficed. The drugs were probably just enough to allow the act to slip by the normal mental barriers. Quite some time later & in an obviously much more sober moment he took his own life because of what he’d done. There was no questioning of the likely contribution of the legally administered drugs in question, even after many similar incidents over the years in the UK since. The possible compensation claims would likely upset the apple cart of the system administrators. It’s a very big business, after all!
    Though there are few shootings in the UK, there are plenty of mindless stabbings from a rampant thuggish youth culture. Personally, I’d like to carry a gun & would think of it as my responsibility to stand in the way of any thug causing mayhem, even though I accept that this culture is without doubt the product of the social plans that have destroyed UK society, mainly summed up in a despicable attack on the family unit that’s now led to so many peace loving & law abiding people living in a permanent state of fear.
    It’s almost unbelievable how bad things have got, but it was inevitable based on the consequences of twisted motives & ideologies that have been enacted on the country.
    Still, at least the GDP figures are kept aloft a little through divorces, drink & drug sales & prison costs, so I’m sure TPTB have everything in its proper order. ie. money before people, & not forgetting that a permanent state of fear is just where certain Powerz want us all to be in order to maintain their power & control the peasants.
    It’s all working very well, but every now & then a fuse blows somewhere. Personally I’d prefer to be armed when one does.

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 5:22 pm

      Jesus, Buster… I’m really sorry to hear about the loss of your loved ones. It surely cannot be easy to… can I say this… think of them as having perished in such a brutal way. Sorry if that is saying too much. I have to consider myself lucky, in that regard. Other than beloved pets, no one close to me has ever been killed, not even in an accident. Or even just died at all, for that matter. But I’m still young-ish. Which reminds me…

      Perhaps a part of all this violence arises from the fact that death simply isn’t a part of most people lives. Not like it used to be, anyway. Not terribly long ago, more kids died at early ages, people didn’t live as long, accidents and major work hazards were more common… And so on. Another intriguing thing about this hypothesis is that the countries where longer life has been longer established… Sweden, Canada, Switzerland, parts of China, Japan… Are also the less violent ones (though there’s cracks forming in some of those).

      So perhaps it is a matter of adjusting to rising LE here in the U.S. that will, in part, “solve” this problem. I hasten to add that government programs and “free” healthcare are not what I’m suggesting. There’s plenty of places with those where violent crime is still high. Such things here would undoubtedly topple us, rather than raise us. Add to that further intrusions on the second… I think we’d be toast in no time flat, as in down and out for a long, long time!

      Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts today, and inspiring me to think of something else for a while. I only wish it could’ve been better news on your side that made it possible. Take care, guy…

    • Buster December 17, 2012, 6:38 pm

      Thanks. It was a long time ago & the nightmares have now stopped, thankfully, & I’ve come to understand what happened pretty well.
      A friend, who’s a psychiatric nurse, was quick to defend the use of medicating drugs, saying they are indispensable in her job. I don’t doubt that after the lion’s escaped the pen that something pretty drastic is needed to stop someone getting eaten. But I prefer to look a bit deeper into the problem to get a fuller understanding, & personally subscribe to prevention rather than continually just managing the catastrophe.
      The UK’s chief psychiatric officer has stated that 90% of mental ill-health sufferers have a history of drink or drug problems. Further, offspring from broken or unstable families have a much higher likelihood of hitting the ‘destruct button’ with overuse of both alcohol & drugs, either legal or prescription, at some time in their lives, due supposedly to the psychological consequences of their life experiences. However, this anger response can occur in any family where love, responsibility & human values are missing. During the bust stages of the present monetary system of ‘asset transfer by numbers’, the number of divorces & broken homes generally sky rocket, leading to a large transfer of wealth to the corporately owned legal system, followed by waves of future victims & customers for what is sometimes called destructive economic theory. The problem is that in the mind of a certain predatory group of rulers, stability is a low profit environment, whereas destruction of family leads to a cascade of profits for the corporate world in many related ways, coupled with dependency on government. So everything tends to lead to the predominant force, & in our world system that force is the Corporate Fascist model.
      As difficult as it may be for some to connect the dots, I can say from deep personal experience & study that this is happening on a growing scale. I think it was Stalin who said that to destroy society you have to destroy the family. He was right about that. Rockefeller himself admitted that this was their elitist plan.
      I can only recommend staying well away from anything big pharma is peddling, even simply a paracetamol, & instead learn about the far more effective natural way to complete health. Also learning to have love & respect can keep your relationships in good stead. Be kind to each other.
      But bearing in mind that most in our society are walking straight into the trap that has been laid by TPTB……..arm yourself!!

  • Don December 17, 2012, 3:59 pm

    John Jay,
    Well stated.

  • dinger December 17, 2012, 3:55 pm

    KS, you have penned the most salient comments so far. Thank you for keeping your head clear during an emotional time.

    Wake up people. Every single day we wake up, get on this trading site and do battle in a rigged and manipulated environment. We witness the greed, fraud, and debauchery of our broken financial system. We witness the degradation of our educational system and wonder that happened to the simplicity of discipline, reading, writing and arithmetic. We witness the contraction of true social interaction and social adjustment, replacing it with a text, email, or worse, nothing. We witness the age of the broken family. We witness the break up our morals and wonder what happened to simple respect. We witness western medicine dominated by greed and big pharma, not your well being. The list could go on and on.

    Not withstanding the role of guns and personal protection as part of the history and social fabric in the U.S., my point is this…. Why are you looking to the very people and Government who have, in large part, created, encouraged, and precipitated our current social, financial, and moral decay, to legislate our way out of another tragedy. Be careful folks…you will get what you ask for.

    Guns represent a deterrent and always will. Plain and simple.

    Mario, remember this….we do not live in China. We do not share the same history, philosophy, social order, or laws. What is good for one is not good for all. While we would all love to see peace and harmony, you can take it to the bank that guns will be part of it in the U. S. So please stop comparing apples to oranges…it just doesn’t cut it here.

  • Jack Russell December 17, 2012, 3:32 pm

    Terrier , I like the sound of that…
    “peolpe who troll are indeed an entire waste of life.”
    your not wrong there champ…give it up.

    Facts Benny Facts.

  • Jack Russell December 17, 2012, 2:51 pm

    hahaha
    “Heck with it. I know Jack won’t look it up, so here it is, for the benefit of anyone paying attention (screw Jack, who wasn’t to begin with)…”
    …Btw, Jack, you didn’t dare address the gaping hole I pointed out in your linked report, above. Any comments on that, or are you going to keep pretending it never happened?..

    Benjamin, what normally happens on “forums” is people have a rational debate, and speak to each other like they would face to face…and unless they can quantify what they say, particularly on a trading website, then be very hesitant to assume.. (im still failing to see what China has to do with this) btw a dozen years means 12 , and 1950’s in any part of the world , is SO much different than what they are experiencing today. But go for go Benjamin, you keep reloading mate. I hope it works out.

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 3:20 pm

      Terrier,

      He who intentionally lies, distorts, and evades cannot get any civility out of me. And that’s because any one of those things, no matter how politely said, are uncivil behavior. You know that, don’t ya “mate”. Sure you do. It’s the story of your whole life. Or, at least the entirety of the “civil and rational content” of your posts. But in my experience, Terrier, peolpe who troll are indeed an entire waste of life.

      At least the killer killed himself. You don’t even have the decency to do that much.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 3:37 pm

      Jack, I have been on the this board for over two years, and I am telling you as clearly as I can that today Benjamin is not Benjamin, NEVER seen him rant so irrationally and viciously and not even calm down and listen to reason….Ben, we worry…

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 4:01 pm

      Mario,

      I’m not at all worried. It’s you and the other regular proggies, now four, with Jack, who have the problem. And that problem is that not a one of you cares to see the world around you, for what it is. You only care about the world as you WANT to know it.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:27 pm

      Ben, I see the world AS IT IS, and HERE is how it IS where I AM,,,, it is a nice safer place WITHOUT GUNS! Too bad you have such a problem with that!
      If one society is more bent toward violence than another, that’s all the more reason to keep guns out of that society! Your suggestion that China is going to experience an inflow of private arms is baseless. The Chinese govt’s #1 priority is a “harmonious society” Anything you do against the harmony of the society, they will put you away or execute you, that’s reality. And that means that people can’t walk around on the street with GUNS, which would threaten the safety and harmony and peace of the society! Which is exactly the outrageous harm that having guns in America DOES! OBVIOUSLY! If the society IS sick, and it in fact is, then guns in the hands of private citizens makes it even worse! And in that circumstance, unfortunately, if it has gone that far, then a sane person in their right mind ought to be able to have a gun to defend themselves against those who are out of control. That sounds great on pape and in fact someone has to maintain order and keep the law with authority in a society. It is necessary. But then that society has to live with the consequences of everyone carrying a firearm if they like and that is a not a society most people want to live in.

  • Mercurious December 17, 2012, 2:47 pm

    @RA: ” To suggest that gun control is the cure for rampages like the one that occurred on Friday is to avoid confronting the real problem: civilization itself is mentally ill. ”

    This is the real, raw, disorienting, palpitation-producing nub of the whole thing, and one that folks would just as soon not think about. We need to face the reality that the world-culture that dominates our times is irreversibly sick. The values that shape it–the ones we act on, not the ones we mouth–are unsustainable, life denying and death serving. We will do ANYTHING, it seems, to avert our eyes from this. I supposed at one point it had to do with wallet issues but of course, those are only symptoms of a deeper illness.

    The best methods to avail ourselves of the cure still reside within real spiritual expression. Whether you prefer “Do unto others as you do unto yourself” or “If you want to change the world, change yourself,” that’s the problem. That’s the solution. All it requires is human will to accomplish.

    I am one of those who believe there is going to be a better, brighter world ahead of us as humans come to understand these things. But we are going to have to go head first, hammer-and-tong up against those who won’t give up their madness before that happens. Yes, sorry, Sons of Light/Sons of Darkness type conflict. As my CHL instructor said, “You shouldn’t hate an enemy. You just have to stop him.”

    Rick, I am glad to hear that somewhere in Colorado another reasonably sane person has decided to ensure at least a modicum of personal protection for himself and his loved ones. I have had my CHL for years, wish it were unnecessary, and carry my weapon with me just about everywhere lawful. Sometime you may just have to decide whether the world is better off with you in it and some whack job in the next one.

  • BKL December 17, 2012, 2:04 pm

    It’s time to take a look at what Mike Huckabee said the other day.

    He basically said that school children in Connecticut deserve to have this happen to them because their curriculum is not Godly enough.

    This is not about God, or harassing people with Asperger’s Syndrome. It’s about hugely reducing access to deadly force.

    There has been mention in this forum of the over-medication of our kids. Why do you think the schools are so quick to insist on medication? They are terrified of the legal consequences of incidents like this.

    The right to raise and medicate your child as you see fit, is one of the casualties of this mayhem. People in communist China would raise the roof(and some furious fists)if you tried to drug their kids.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 3:34 pm

      BKL, I like you more and more with every sentence of common sense and understanding you utter….Cheers, Mario

    • Marilyn December 17, 2012, 7:29 pm

      Mike Huckabee said no such thing.

    • Cam Fitzgerald December 19, 2012, 5:06 pm

      I was with you Mercurious right up until you said you believed ” there is going to be a better, brighter world ahead of us”. That’s when you lost me completely.

    • John December 19, 2012, 6:38 pm

      Whenever any one says “basically what they said” without the quote , you know that’s not what they said.

  • Jack Russell December 17, 2012, 1:29 pm

    KS “Yes, there were no fatalities (if memory serves me right), but does it make it any less serious?
    ummm Yes by 20 odd!

    If you dont like the state, then thats one things , ..guns drugs, 20 year old male testosterone in another.. he probably thought he was doing the kids a favour (RIP) as his mother by whats being reported thought the end was near. Unfortunately it looks like many Americans , (A republican on CNN, “if the teacher had of been quicker , she could of taken his head off” pleaseeee in this day and age… see it as them against us) , so we will defend at all means without a decent argument. Pull it back a notch and take a look at the paranoia, that has become part of the chicken and the egg syndrome.

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 2:19 pm

      Jack and KS,

      Don’t forget that last year, there was a total of 20 deaths and 50 injuries, due to knife attacks in Chinese schools (I’m tired of posting links. Look it up, guys).

      And Jack, no, it doesn’t matter what one number vs another is, seeing as how further restictions won’t (and haven’t, nor will) have an iota of impact on things over here, except for the worse, as it so far has. Too, and as I tried to point out to Mario, China is not going to stay that way. And if what BKL says has any merit (and by the looks of China in recent years, at least, it is), folks in China are going to have a very rude awakening. So will you control-freaks, provided you’re not jizzing yourselves senseless over any radical changes in the U.S. that you’ve been longing and longing to see.

      Btw, Jack, you didn’t dare address the gapping hole I pointed out in your linked report, above. Any comments on that, or are you going to keep pretending it never happened?

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 2:40 pm

      Heck with it. I know Jack won’t look it up, so here it is, for the benefit of anyone paying attention (screw Jack, who wasn’t to begin with)…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Asia

      Order by country and see how much room China takes up. Also note the years, the method(s), and the numbers of casualties. Then, compare that to the same rampage killer list for the U.S.

      We’re not all that different from China. A few bigger incidents in the U.S., but for the most part comparable.

      So naturally, I see that things are working out splendidly in China, and will only continue to stay that way because, clearly, the government is in control of its sheep and always will be.

      Not!

      And it will become worse because the Chinese government won’t recognize the natural right to keep and bear arms, even as tons of guns flood into the hands of violent criminals. Mark my words, it will hit the law abiding Chinese HARD. At some point, those angry victims will accquire what they can’t legally have. And so will end China as we (think we) know it.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 3:33 pm

      Ben! 20 and 50?? That’s NOTHING! , that’s LOW, that’s an EXTREMELY LOW CRIME RATE!!!! AAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! You guys bring up EXCEPTIONS to the RULES to justify your ridiculous indefensible positions….

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 3:58 pm

      Mario,

      You didn’t check the whole list. I only included the numbers for the _knife_ attacks in schools.

      I know you’re always in a big hurry to discredit me when it comes to your beloved delusions, but please mario… Take at least ONE moment to look for yourself.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:14 pm

      Ben, I was NOT trying to discredit you and I didn’t even attack anything you said! …I’m just arguing views on important stuff on the freakin’ board!!

  • BKL December 17, 2012, 12:45 pm

    You write well Rick, but you allow us semi-literates the luxury of picking through the entrails of your thoughts.
    Like this one:

    No gun-control law under consideration, even a law that would seek to confiscate virtually every firearm in America, would have prevented Adam Lanza from doing what he did.

    I submit to you that such laws are on the books in Mario’s China, and in my rural Japan as well.
    And let me tell you that the people in China and Japan are not sweet-natured. They are seething, neurotic creatures lashing out at anything within their reach.
    This is particularly true of people in their twenties.

  • DG December 17, 2012, 9:07 am

    Couple of interesting websites, but first a repeated point. It is bizarre that we know the name of the weapons, the calibre, the size of the magazine, but what about the shooter’s medical history…..could we please know exactly what meds he was on, who prescribed them, and who manufactured them……of course, Bushmaster doesn’t pay for advertising like Big Pharma does as they blast us with erectile dysfunction and statin ads while watching NFL players giving concussions….you really think fox of cnn is going to give you the truth? Quite costly to them.

    jfpo.org – check out gun control’s history and the nearly always following genocide. Genocide? watch “worse than war” – a great documentary made by son of a holocaust survivor…..more people have died from their own government’s killing them than all war combined in the last century……before you eagerly disarm yourselves you may want to consider history….you thought this was bad towards children? Check out the history of genocide….Love your kids? Reserve a way to protect them.

    SSRI’s work for some, but are a disaster for others…
    http://ssristories.com/

    Show me a mass murder-suicide and I’ll wager a thousand bucks there is a history of antidepressants…..in the Oregon Mall shooting last week the shooter had a history of mental issues, his Mom admitted that he stole pot and her meds, yet not a word about his medical history…..somehow big pharma keeps it under wraps just long enough for people to disconnect the dots.

    It amazes me that folks will blame gun manufacturers for crimes, yet not a peep gets spoken about the drug makers…..

    http://ssristories.com/index.php

    http://archive.org/details/TheRoleOfSsriAnti-depressantsInTheColumbineShooting

    I feel so badly for those kids and their families. There is a persistent evil in this world. Ignoring it will not make it leave. It is not just the problem-weird kids, but the shrinks that make it all better and the drug companies that lie about the single digit percentage of possible disastrous results…..Big pharma is a big problem. My disdain for them is only rivaled by my disdain for big banking and their relationship with the Fed. It is all the same….corruption, regulation written to benefit the corporation, at the expense of private citizens. The architect of Obamacare is now paid handsomely as an employee of Johnson and Johnson…..Big pharma clean? right.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A90inFea3sA

    YOU are screwed!

    The eagerness for politicians to jump on this gun control wreaks of either a very contrived situation or their eagerness for total domination of subjects….both are bad.

    It’s like 9-11 all over again…..buildings came down, better invade Iraq and gut the Bill of Rights….huh? Seems pretty suspect.

    • redwilldanaher December 18, 2012, 8:10 pm

      Amen.

  • Marc Authier December 17, 2012, 7:59 am

    Big Pharma and Crazy Psychiatrist control is the solution. The child in question was suffering of Asperger Syndrome autism directly induced and provoked by Big Pharma poisonous mercury aluminium squalene baboun monker RNA virus. Bet you that this boy was under heavy medications of MADE IN USA heavy psychotropes or amphetamine Ritalin. They now say that Papa Laza was about to testify about the LIBOR scandal. Stange coincidences as usual.

  • KS December 17, 2012, 7:56 am

    I am truly amazed at the incomprehension by the pro-ban side of the simple facts and statistics. You are all quite intelligent people, from what I can gather.

    Mario, there was a mass attack on children in China, the very same day of the Connecticut shooting. A crazed man went in with a knife and has injured around 20 kids and adults, some in critical condition. Yes, there were no fatalities(if memory serves me right), but does it make it any less serious? How did that ban work out for you in China, or was the Big Bad Govt right there on the spot, executing the maniac, showing its tough stance? Oh wait, knives aren’t banned.

    In the perfect world with all the other things right in the society, there would be no difference to ban or not to ban firearms, as humans wouldn’t conceive of such acts in the first place.

    All you naysayers seem to think that by enacting some kind of legislation, you can control acts of people who do not care about/afraid of the law in the first place. You have also been blessed to make your assumptions from the cozy spot behind your monitor, and never had an encounter where clear and present danger to your life existed, and even calling 911 wasn’t an option.

    It does piss me off, just like it pisses off Benjamin, that such a simple thing to understand, seems so hard for so many people brainwashed by the media or for whatever other reason.

    The current US society isn’t healthy mentally or physically, isn’t educated properly, doesn’t have healthy moral values. All of the above exists on purpose with an agenda from above. Yet most gun owners I know are the complete opposite.

    Why does a simple act of taking responsibility for protecting your own life and those surrounding you, instead of fleeing in panic and waiting/hoping for the “authorities” to come rescue you, is such a hard thing to grasp.

    The last important piece of statistics, that you seem to not comprehend:
    An OVERWHELMING majority of these massacres(check non-US as well) happen in GUN FREE ZONES, where the bans on firearms have existed for ages. All the bans have provided, is ZERO ability of the victims to protect themselves. And those that happened in US states with liberal gun laws, were in places where potential defenders would be unarmed due to LAWS against carrying in school or carrying alltogether.

    Keep grasping to your idea, that any government has a magical ability to resolve these issues and actually cares about protecting your life. What current events have you been following for the last 10+ years(or forever, for that matter)?

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 1:19 pm

      HI KS, you write some very good points. At the same time by no means am I suggested that a ban on guns, as exists in many countries across the world, is for the purpose of preventing massacres such as the one at Sandy Hook or a massacre in HK by knife which if guns were avaiable as they are in the U.S. would probably have been by gun.

      I am simply and clearly stating the obvious. Societies without guns are far better off than the ones with guns. I am living IN that and I am grateful for it. Martin makes the point best, if the gun is available at all, then the conflict can escalate to that level of violence. Without the guns, the damage is FAR less and it is beyond me how anyone can ignore that core fact.

      You bring up “exceptions” not rules as your excuse to defend guns. As a “rule” societies are better with out them and there are some “exceptions” to that rule.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:51 pm

      Mario, I understand now why you do not live in the Nation and choose to live where everything is designed by the government, with a little bit of black rebellion on the street corner.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:13 pm

      Hi Steven, a couple of things to follow up on…

      I don’t understand your reference to “Mosaic Law”? , thanks.

      You said I live in a nation where everything is “designed by the govt” ? …and “black rebellion on the street corner”….

      I just don’t get what you’re trying to say…

      Cheers, Mario

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 8:01 pm

      Mario, selling black market on every corner to justify econ-success, so as to cheat the very government providing your direction seems, well – get the point?

      One hand says China is good, while the other hand says bite the hand that feeds you by stealing on street corners, in the faire, and corporately.

    • mario cavolo December 18, 2012, 7:43 am

      I estimate off the GDP books cash life in China is in the trillions. So, meanwhile I wanted to ask, when your twelve year old daughter is paid $20 cash by the babysitter, you, um, make sure she reports that on her tax return, right?

  • Jill December 17, 2012, 6:55 am

    Bed Rock, your use of guns makes sense for who you are & the environment you are in. But for others, not so much. E.g. Nancy Lanza is said to have taken her son target shooting, even though he apparently had a severe mental disorder. And he was apparently able to access plenty of guns at home.

    I don’t think that all guns should be outlawed. But neither do I think that every mentally disturbed person or one with a criminal record should have easy access to them. Since the shooter was under 21, according to the articles I am reading, if he had a criminal record, it would not be public information, so he may have had one.

    • Bed Rock December 17, 2012, 7:10 am

      Jill, Then it is up to someone else, who is capable, to look after him and not let him have a gun, knife, bat, or anything else he could hurt others or him self with. We don’t need laws for that.

    • Jeff W. December 17, 2012, 7:11 am

      He was able to access the guns at home because his mother, whom so far as I’ve read from news reports, wasn’t mentally ill and was in every way able to buy a gun legally.

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:49 pm

      But, the mother failed to obey the founding Law of this Nation in regard to a rebellious child.

    • Jeff W. December 17, 2012, 10:01 pm

      Exactly, Stephen. Hence why I don’t think that any change in the law would have prevented his access.

  • DTIFS December 17, 2012, 6:15 am

    We have more mental illness in young kids of means and privilege than I recall…really bad…so bad this happens….here are some real root causes that coupled with loosey goosey gun laws make for a problem:

    – photo-realistic video games that satirize and glamorize and desensitize violence at young ages….
    – over-medicated kids with “white-people” problems and conocted depressions like not enough facebook friends and poor Iphone service…
    -“wanna be a star” syndrome where every kids want to be known or famous (or infamous) for youtube video views, half-assed American Idol auditions, or reality TV

    This is a country full of self-indulgent, insecure, and stimuli-dependent and desensitized loons….stop the stimulus and you stop the “made-up” depressions or real depressions that lead to drugs (or not) that lead to this….

    • max lopez December 19, 2012, 2:43 am

      first this is a sad and alomost incomprehesible act of senseless violence.. i mourn for the families the friends and all who were touched by this horific event. this includes usa, and the world at large …. so what are the causes?? what are the soloutions??
      i am no social scientist . but i think any dumie can see that the loosey goosey prescriptions dooled out of dubious brain altering drugs is on ebig problem
      2 . destruction of family values ie. bonds of mom dad and children with extended familyl
      3. violense plasterd all over the tv and movies.
      3a. realistic killing video games that promote murder , mayhem etc. and the countless hours loged by an ever more zombified youth generation.
      4. a government that promotes and endorses all of th above with subsides and special laws to protect said above.

      etc etc,
      what to do??
      battten down the hatches , it is sure to only get worse.. how many more are in the piple line??

      the most powerfull law in universe, cause and effect
      1.
      if i lived there i would arm myself.
      2. stop watching tv.. period. dont permit this trash to polute your mind.
      3. dont let your childeren watch this shit.
      4 get rid of the x boxes and wii etc,
      5. get off of all these drugs..
      6. hug your kid and go for a walk.
      7. visit your mom or grand mom.
      8. visit somone unknown in a nursing home with yuor kid.
      9. play scrable with your family or firiends.
      10. read a book with your kids or family..

      oh but maybe thats to old fation and boring…
      want differnt results,, try something different..
      cause and efffect.

  • jj December 17, 2012, 6:00 am

    Pffft, what a bunch of extremist drivel. Someone is knocking out people with a semi-automatic rifle like a duck hunt and you are going to jump into the fray and take him out with a well orchestrated kill shot. You have been watching too much tv.

    I will cite an armed robbery in L.A. about 15 years ago where the robbers went toe to toe with the armed police but were dressed to the 9s with body armour. The police subsequently went to the local armory and loaded up their arsenal and went in to confront these guys. Thats as force against force as you are going to get. Guess what happened, everyone got either maimed or killed in the hail of bullets. Multiple cops dead or injured before the gunmen were finally dead at the end.

    &&&&&&

    Why don’t you do the math and try again rather than jerking yourself off in this forum. RA

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:47 pm

      JJ, the extremist is the subject who refuses to pay the debt he owes as a Citizen. Read American Law and Statutes and then understand your obligation to your neighbor to be armed.

    • John December 19, 2012, 6:28 pm

      Pffft? jj you don’t need a “kill Shot” . As soon as these cowards know someone is there to stop them they must go on the defensive which means he has to cover his own ass. Part of which means they can no longer go off killing more people unabated ,thus saving lives. If they don’t do themselves and everyone else a big favor by offing themselves first (which is the usual M.O.) it buys time for other responders to get there. This sicko would probably still be there reloading and killing if not for the reality that “someone” that was also armed was coming to get them. Your use of hyperbole shows your lack of a real argument. Your reference to a “kill shot” tells me you know very little about the subject of self defense, but you seem to have some self delusion of intellectual superiority. Which tells you wont be finding enlightenment any time soon. Buenas suerte.

  • Jeff W. December 17, 2012, 5:59 am

    A few things.

    1. Let’s not forget the kids and the teachers that died. That should be priority #1, not politics. To forget them is morally repugnant.
    2. Banning guns would be about as effective as banning drugs. I can obtain any illicit substance I want even though I’m in an upscale part of Seattle. It’s not hard. If you made guns illegal, you’d create a criminal market and those that really wanted them could still get them. It won’t fix anything.
    3. I don’t own a gun. I barely know how to shoot one. But I am now going to go learn how to do so and going to get a concealed carry permit. Will I carry a gun after that? I don’t know. I might get something less lethal but with the ability to disable my opponent. Regardless, whatever method you want to choose, people should learn something to protect themselves. Whether it’s martial arts, a gun, mace, a knife, whatever.
    4. In a time of crisis like this, people are in shock and will say things in a knee-jerk reaction. It’s important to realize that there are two sides to any policy (at least) so while it may sound good to say something like “don’t let mentally ill people buy guns” you have to remember that depression and the like could be interpreted as something that raises a red flag and prevents you from obtaining a gun. And there are a lot of people with depression (esp. here in Seattle where it’s always dark). So I ask that regardless of your side of the issue, before you condemn the other as a bunch of idiots, at least first hear their side and *why* they feel that way. Then argue that. But don’t resort to name calling and degradation.
    5. As Rick said in the article, just remember that even in very anti-gun countries like Norway, this same sort of thing does happen. Furthermore, according to the WSJ, the same day this shit happened some crazy guy in China stabbed some 20+ kids at a school with a knife. A knife. Not a gun. He was mentally insane.

    Horrific things happen for no reason. That’s why they are horrific. The best you can do is figure out a way to protect yourself and your loved ones with whatever means you feel the most comfortable with.

    And if you read nothing else, at least read point #1. Don’t forget about the kids that died and the teachers that gave up their lives to protect even more of them.

  • Bed Rock December 17, 2012, 5:30 am

    It is up to every able- bodied citizen to protect themselves and those who are too young, too old, too afraid, or invalids and use any and all means to do so. No matter where you live 911 takes too long. Nothing will deter a homicidal coward more than having to go face to face with an equally armed opponent. History has page after page of such events. I am a rancher that works in the middle of thousands of acres of raw land. I strap a pistol on every day and have rifles located in many convenient places within my reach, just in case. I have watched scores of potential thugs get religion fast when they just see my pistol for the first time. If they were a mass murderer among them, they had to go elsewhere to begin.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:09 am

      This is a very good point Bed Rock and taking it a step further, I suggest you are simply saying that direct,clear knowledge of a very harsh response is a very strong deterrent to a would be thug in your situation and I applaud it.

      At the govt/country level, its the same thing if a govt has harsh laws in place which are not a bluff. In Singapore for example, throw gum or a cigarette on the street and you WILL cough up $500. Vandalize (scratch) on purpose someone’s car, you WILL get 40 lashings with a bamboo cane. China, serious crime and you WILL be executed. Therefore, behave. I don’t find much here in the way of deep discussion or philosophy.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:44 pm

      Mario, I see you agree that the issue is failure of the government to support and defend the Mosaic Law. My choice of Law is for this Nation as Framed and Agreed in origin.

  • Jill December 17, 2012, 5:15 am

    Excellent points all, Martin. And all made in a very respectful way. There are some here, & on many forums, who, if you could somehow shoot someone on the Internet, often sound like they would shoot everyone who disagrees with them. But you are one of those folks whose comments I can read without bracing myself. Thanks.

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 6:49 am

      It’s not me, who is the intolerant one, girl. You and your state-worshipping buddies are the ones who can’t stand ME and others doing what we’re doing (and are going to continue to do, “new” laws be damned).

      And no, I won’t agree with nor show any civility toward anyone who espouses the culture of willing victimhood, who have undoubtedly have over the years voted against our rights and have given support to those ogranizations that do likewise. I will not be nice to the lying, undermining scum of the taco joint toilet bowl who seek to disarm me and see more children dead.

      You’re not civil for saying you are civil, Jill. You’re just another bootlicking troll, like the others…. a statist rhymes-with-hunt (hint: gary, martin, and Mario have them in place of the standard equipment).

      I’m done for tonight. Will check back later to see what the good and intelligent folks undoubtedly will come and say. And you good folks make sure you let the agenda-ed statists have what they deserve. They say WE are politicizing, denying, obsfucating, being intolerant, and “uncivil”. But we know it is them. It has always been them. Not us.

  • martin schnell December 17, 2012, 5:00 am

    The lack of gun controls in the US is a symptom of what is wrong in America … the will of the people being ignored by those bought off with cash. (Even a majority of NRA members when surveyed want some basic controls that the NRA itself continues to fight against)

    In most other civilized countries gun ownership is restricted or tightly controlled. As a result in all other civilized nations gun violence is minimal in comparison to the US. (Yes the Swiss have guns but try using one without permission). In the UK the police don’t even carry guns. In Canada gun violence is rare (yes there is the occasional incident – but often because of guns smuggled illegally form the US). In Japan gun violence is virtually unheard of, even by their Mafia. So yes you can have civilized safe societies without guns.

    The key point that is misunderstood is this – if you have a gun almost any argument can escalate to be a shooting. If you don’t have a gun, you may have a fight with fists or maybe you might sit down and talk about it. Either way the damage done is less.

    Too often the US approach is an over reaction – see Iraq, see Afghanistan – and ultimately there is a higher price to be paid than if cooler heads had prevailed (OBL’s goal was to bankrupt the US, a goal that he is close to achieving if only posthumously given the crippling level of US military expenditures that the population is unwilling to pay for).

    SunTzu in the Art of War lets us know that the highest skill is to win without fighting. When you have a gun, the escalation to fighting is simply far too easy.

    Where can the US start? (besides restricting gun ownership to 18th century weaponry as envisioned in the constitution?) How about background checks, bans on assault weapons (if you are out hunting Bambi with one of these, you ain’t a hunter), bans on oversized magazines (again if you need these for hunting, WTF are you hunting).

    To do nothing is criminal.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 5:18 am

      That’s nicely said Martin, thanks.

      Especially…”…if you have a gun almost any argument can escalate to be a shooting. If you don’t have a gun, you may have a fight with fists or maybe you might sit down and talk about it. Either way the damage done is less.”

      This covers my position very well…better off without them than with them in any case. As Rick points out, and others like Ben and yourself, the society is “sick”, and that is even more reason to completely ban the guns!

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:42 pm

      Idiots, United States Code I requires the ownshipship of current military arms. All early 2nd amendment cases revolved around the fact a shotgun is not a military weapon, meaning the 2nd is about the People taking down government and invaders. People who do not live in a Nation that supports Liberty expect the government to take care of them. And, that is what is wrong with most of the World.

    • mukesh December 19, 2012, 12:51 am

      At last a sane voice. Of the 23 richest countries in the world, 80% of guns fatalities happen in USA. How long can we keep our heads buried in the sand that 100 round ammo clips, assault rifles, and other assorted lethal weapons, whose only purpose in to kill an many people as possible in the shortest possible time, is abhorrent to sportmen who hunt. BTW, they are not sportmen either. but that’s another topic.

      I bet Rick that BO will win +300 votes but he did not take it though he was all for Romney. I bet again that banning guns will reduce these senseless, brutish, savage mass killings. Here’s hoping the NRA (a trade group of the gun manufacturers regardless of how vigorously they deny it) will be neutred in the coming months.

  • John Jay December 17, 2012, 4:36 am

    Newtown, CT is about 10 miles from where I grew up.
    I am going to speculate that the lunatic was on some manner of SSRI prescription drug. It seems to be a factor in many of the mass murders that have proliferated since those things went mainstream. To shoot your mother in the face and then proceed to massacre tiny tots and shoot yourself when the cops show up requires more than being a high strung, socially awkward nerd.
    I remember some Marine officers wife out here in Cal. was on SSRI type drugs when she killed her two babies for no good reason years ago.
    I believe they pass them out to our combat troops, and now they have as many troop suicides as KIA.
    So FDA approved SSRI drugs may be the real problem.
    FDA Approved.
    Federal Government Approved.

    I will, once again lay this at the feet of the Federal government, since starting with LBJ, the concept of personal responsibility and shame went out the window.
    And God was declared “Dead”.
    Bums became “Homeless”
    The old Motion Picture Code was scrapped.
    Nothing but brutal murders on TV and at the cinema.
    And serial killers became media stars, beginning with the hideous Richard Speck.

    This type of behavior never occurred when I was a kid in the 50s and 60s. And there were no tough gun control laws needed back then. Lots of high schools had shooting teams and kids brought weapons to school with no problems. As a matter of fact, prior to the 1934 National Firearms Act, anyone could own a fully automatic weapon, Tommy Guns were advertised as varmint killers for ranchers.
    So the availability of weapons did not enable massacres by lunatic teenagers back then, did it?
    Can anyone recall any school house massacres in the “Roaring Twenties” when machine guns were legal?
    So what has changed to bring us to this state of affairs?

    FDR used the rise of the bootlegging gangsters as the reason for the NFA of 1934.
    At least Prohibition was put out of it’s misery after ten years I believe.
    But the NFA stayed in effect after the bootleggers went out of business.
    So here we are today, and after a fifty year government attack on the old traditional family and morality in general we have prescription drug crazed maniacs
    slaughtering innocents.
    If we went back to the old school method of raising God Fearing children with a strong moral compass, it will take decades for the psychopaths to work their way through the system.
    Rick is right, all you can do is arm yourself and protect your loved ones.
    And if you take away all the firearms as the government would love to?
    The Adams of the world will just turn to arson, or go Ted Kaczynski, or dream up some horrible CNB surprise for us in their mom’s basement.
    Or use an automobile as a missile into a crowd.
    They have no rules, they think and live outside of the moral box we all live in.
    Anything goes for them, remember?

    You can’t legislate morality, it needs to be taught to the young before they hit 6 or 7, after that it is too late.
    And the government has done their best to forbid that from happening, haven’t they?
    Sandy Hook is sad beyond comprehension, but the problem is drug crazed lunatics raised in a society where anything goes by government edict.
    Not the weapons they choose to use.
    Zombieland is here, be very careful.

    • fallingman December 17, 2012, 8:13 am

      I share the same suspicion. If big pharma drugs…namely selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or anti-psychotic medications…aren’t implicated in this, it’s only because the drug lords will have hushed it up.

      The drug lords’ gameplan is to get ’em when they’re young…pushing anti-depressants on kids as young as 6… and drug ’em relentlessly throughout life. And look at what you get.

      But if powerful psychoactive drugs are involved, you’ll never hear a peep from the networks or the magazines, because they make a whole lotta money courtesy of big pharma’s massive advertising budgets. Every other ad on the wretched nightly news is for a powerful pharmaceutical of one kind or another…ALL of which are junk. Count the number of drug ads in a Reader’s Digest sometime. It’s absurd.

      Cause and effect. There’s a law there. You can bemoan it, but you can’t repeal it. A good percentage of the population is in a drug-induced haze.

      Happy motoring.

      Thanks JJ.

  • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 4:17 am

    ” In the 18 years before the intervention, Australia had 13 mass shootings. In the dozen years since, there has not been a single one. The laws also helped reduce firearm suicide and non-mass shooting firearm homicide.”

    So how many “dozens” of years are between 1996 and 2011? Seems the propagandist made a very obviously false claim… as GD low-lives and their sycophantic parrots are wont to attempt on their marks.

    That aside, what of the periods between 1974 and 1959, and 1959 and 1919 (there’s your _real_ dozens), where the stricter laws weren’t even a glint in the eyes of the tyrants?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Oceania

  • Jack Russell December 17, 2012, 2:37 am

    Maybe worth a read. …

    http://guncontrol.org.au/2011/04/fifteen-years-since-port-arthur-gun-massacre-2/

    “Within a decade of the NFA the rate of gun homicide and gun suicide had dropped significantly. In the last few years, less than half the number of Australians are being killed by gunfire.”

    • Steven George Fair December 17, 2012, 6:37 pm

      And, they are subjects who will die to be slaves. They are subjects to whatever the elite say.

  • mava December 17, 2012, 2:12 am

    What makes a person to commit such a horrible crime?
    Craziness.

    What is craziness?
    A response to a feeling of being trapped.

    Why does one may feel trapped?
    Unnatural laws cause this, besides the causes that no one can change.

    What is an unnatural law?
    Speeding ticket, Social Security, HSBC enjoying different justice… all things arbitrary yet enforced.

    Conclusion:
    Relaxing gun laws may help, but nothing will stop this now, because we are having and creating way too many unnatural laws that place individuals into feeling trapped, triggering payback mode. As we continue to turn our country into a dictatorship socialist paradise, more and more of our citizens that are not able to comprehend that everything we say and do is a lie, will continue to perceive a disconnect between the promised and the reality, and will go on to implement their own, ridiculous “solutions”, such as mass murder.

    How do you like the socialist paradise now? You can only push a human being so far, and then there will be a push back. It will be enraged, illogical, horribly inconsequential. Well, we complicate the life, and no wonder some stop understanding it sooner than others.
    Because they are going to end up as ones feeling trapped, it is their “backfire” that we are going to see. It is going to inherit their characteristics, too.

    • Robert December 17, 2012, 8:19 pm

      Bravo Mava

  • Jason December 17, 2012, 12:58 am

    I agree whole-heartedly with everything you’ve said above. Even to the point of feeling that pang of guilt about waiting too long to take a concealed weapons class. It’s offered via a Groupon offer here in Michigan as well.

    My only gripe is with the statement “by a high-powered rifle.” This is where the media often errs, since probably 95% of them have never fired a single round. The .223 caliber carbine used in this tragedy is actually not high powered. Anybody who has fired rifles as a boy, probably started with a .22 caliber rifle aimed at soda cans and milk jugs. The .22 is something more of a small game and rodent caliber rifle.

    That said, I understand that the .223 carbine is very similar to an urban M-16, and really meant for urban assault. I could be wrong here, but I think the issue with the particular weapon in question is that because of the smallish nature of the rounds, a rather “small” magazine can hold many more rounds, than say a 9MM handgun.

    I don’t mean any offence, and welcome input from those more knowledgeable. My concealed carry course is in 2 weeks.

    Like most, I’m at a loss for words to convey my sadness and frustration at what has occurred, and what will likely occur in the coming weeks and months.

  • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 12:54 am

    I knew this would be here, come Monday (actually, it’s Sunday evening where I am). I’ve much to say toward what will undoubtedly be said here today by the usual people. Sorry to be so long-winded, but perhaps it will cut down on the number of posts so that the focus can be put on what matters… Mourning the loss of children and looking at and accepting the only genuinely effective course.

    First of all, I slept wrong last night and am therefore
    achy and sore. I also have a sinus headache. And this
    latest tragedy has not seen me sleeping well since it
    happened. So I’m not going to be at all polite today with
    those who insist on aiming their butts at the second
    amendmendment and blowing their bullsh!t all over it and this forum.

    And whatever anyone will write and post here today, DO
    NOT pretend that I and the other pro-liberty folks are using the tragedy to politicize our “agenda”. WE have not politicized ANYTHING. On the other hand, (so-called) gun-free zones and over 30 gun laws have long since politicized a simple to interpret amendment. So to all those “senstive” knee-jerkers or moralizers… DO NOT SAY THAT. DO NOT EVEN _HINT_ at it.

    I’m now going to list the common “solutions” that have
    been put forth by mainstream anti-gun commentary. Each point will be followed by the rebuttal….

    “Solution”: We need to re-inflate public mental health
    services and/or expand the scope of them, thereafter.

    Other than to knee-jerk react or advance the agenda of
    the bootlickers of Team Government, this would accomplish nothing other than harassing and further stigmatizing of those whose only (thought)”crime” is having a mental disorder(s).

    Really, how is this great idea supposed to work? Shall we make a list of those with documented mental illness, and periodically haul them in for a pysch evaluation? And what of those who suddenly snap or develop an undocumented mental disorder?

    We will not have better security by bleeding the unarmed taxpayer so that More Government can harass innocent people while exercising not one iota of prevention in the forever unknowable number of unknown and unmonitored mentally ill.

    “Solution”: Make guns harder to get

    Lanza, and the other killers before him, had already
    violated several of the 30-something gun laws already in
    place. How is one or one hundred more “sensible” gun laws going to stop anything?!

    “Solution”: Ban guns!

    Fock you, fock you, and fock you. I’m sick and tired of
    idiots who remain completely unaware of the fact that any kind of prohibition has never been successful (without a severe loss of other liberties and massive casualties). Gun bans would be no exception because there’s tens and tens of thousands of people, the world over, that can make guns from common items and common tools. Ammunition, too. So guns are here to stay. Even 200 years ago, that was true. So we the people MUST adapt. There is never going to be any getting around that.

    That’s it for the “solutions”. Now for some stupid points
    made against armed teachers and staff…

    Point: NO!!!

    Yes! And more generally, the second amendment for ALL law abiding adults must be upheld and practiced by said adults!

    Point: Allowing teachers and school staff to carry would
    only make them targets (you stupid NRA, Faux News-
    worshipping bible bigot!!!)

    YES, that is the point! A carrying adult can do the one thing that unarmed and defenseless children and adults can’t… SHOOT BACK! Also known as bringing to bear the necessary and expedient stopping power against a child-killer (because when seconds count, the police are always going to be _minutes_ away).

    So yes, let armed adults become the priority target for
    any would-be mass murderer. Let’s see how “mentally ill” these killers really are (they aren’t ill because the
    only reason they attack “gun-free” zones is because they
    are mentally able to calculate their chances of success!).

    Point: Allowing teachers to carry would only allow kids
    the chance to get a hold of a gun and run amok. So at
    best, we’d be no better of. At worst, we’d have more, not
    fewer, school shootings (you stuid NRA, Faux News-
    worshipping bible bigot!)

    That hasn’t happened in Israel, where teachers — and
    even of-age students — have been allowed to carry in
    schools since c. 1975. Furthermore…

    a) For many, many years, the majority of teachers have
    driven to work. How many incidents of joyriding and/or
    vehicular homicide have resulted from a kid getting a
    hold of a teacher’s car keys?

    b) There are things like locked carrying cases and
    trigger locks that can better prevent kids from doing
    tragic things with a teacher’s stolen or misplaced gun.

    (But I would contend that those measures would be more encouraging of teachers to leave their gun lying about, rather than keeping it on their person at all times.
    Ultimately, concealed CARRY (hello?! keyword here! Anyone home, McFly?!) is the only rational and constitutional answer).

    c) Even if teachers and school staff STILL can’t be
    allowed to carry in schools (unconstitutional and asinine as that is), there is no reason to disallow the use of armed security guards and law abiding volunteers.

    Point: The U.S. is already the most armed country in the
    world. But these shootings still occur. Therefore, more
    guns is not the answer (yadda yadda yadda, ad hominem
    strawman, NRA, Faux News, bibles etc).

    The vast majority of law abiding gun owners are not truly armed, except in their own homes. Only a very small percentage of gun owners have carry permits. That must change, and the only ones who can do that are the gun owners themselves.

    And how funny it is that Obama and other statists talk
    about things having to change. But they don’t say that
    more gun owners should get carry permits and start to
    actually carry, as is their natural, second amendment
    right (and, indeed, obligation). No, the tyrants say we just need more restrictions placed on us, with no obstructionary “politics” this time around (read: no resistance to the ADDITIONAL changes they propose to the already extensive arsenal of gun laws against our liberty and defense).

    Point: Fine. I’ll just raise the same arguments, time and
    again, because ultimately I’m not capable of thinking or
    saying anything else (so there!)

    Fock off, losers.

    On a final note, I very seriously contemplated taking my own gun and blowing my brains out. I’ve so little hope anymore. And always, it’s the wrong “solutions” that are persued. More people die. More children gone. And not because of some “culture of violence”. Rather, it’s the enscounced culture of victimhood. We’ve been doing nothing but seeding and growing that culture, always setting ourselves up for more it.

    When will this madness cease?!

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 4:26 am

      Ben,

      I offer you compliments for covering so many points so well and so passionately.

      However I remain as resolutely as ever one of the idiots.

      I remain so with the daily delight of living in a very low crime country with a 100% ban on guns.

      Amen and thanks every single day.

      BUT, THAT is NOT, as Rick and yourself well note, an accessible approach in the U.S. where the situation is already too far down the road and complicated. I will leave the rest…

      Cheers, Mario

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 4:49 am

      Choosing the last point, eh Mario? I’ll of course spare the F-you response, since you don’t live here and aren’t even making suggestions that we “must follow”. Do as you like, and I’ll do as I must. But mark my words…

      In today’s China, it’s knives, gasoline bombs, and vehicles. However long away tomorrow is, people will begin to tap that black market I spoke of. And if the noose is further tightened, to “prevent” it, they’ll start using those 3-D printers to make them (short usuable life as those plastic things have). Speaking of 3-D printers…

      How can China keep up its cheap labor advantage in the face of that technology? And that threat being a real one, how then can the government keep itself big enough to stop the arriving influx of homemade guns? (which can even be full auto, as well as flamethrowers; YouTube it and see!)

      Feel safe for now, but I wouldn’t recommend projecting that into tomorrow (or even into today).

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 5:12 am

      Very interesting point about 3D and the ability to make home made guns.

      Thankfully I live in a country where when that sh!t may start up, they will not hesitate to execute the perpetrators, sending out the message clearly and putting a fast, clean end to the problem before it takes hold. Strict, harsh punishment is an excellent deterrent to crime.

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 6:26 am

      Excsuse me, Mario, but I addressed your “thank god they’ll always clamp down” point, regarding both the 3-D printers and future of gun smuggling into China,
      which was a good part of my posted response. You’re either being seletively literate in a very big way, or your wonderful sheeple-keepers are editing what you read. But since you love your keepers so much, I don’t see any difference between the two possibilities.

      And for the record, after having read martin’s bull and your response to it… NO, I was not lamenting it being “too late” to ban anything in the U.S. I lament the accepted culture of victimhood that you and martin are so eager to embrace and jag to in sickening
      gratitude.

      And yes, the earlier exception I made for you is cancelled. You turned around and used against me what I was decent enough to extend. Twisting my words, not reading what I wrote, going around here talking about how great the tyrants are (after yet another tragedy CAUSED by them has taken place!)…

      You never deserved not to be told to you-know-what. So, ya know… Go you-know-what, smilely statist boy.

    • mario cavolo December 17, 2012, 7:02 am

      Ben I need to suggest to you that you’re misreading and misunderstanding me. I am only intending friendly and level conversation, even disagreeing on points. I get you’re really upset and wound up at the moment. I wasn’t attacking you in any way. I think without question no guns is better, and I stated that here in China, any efforts at criminality are met with much harsher punishment as a deterrent and that I agree with those approaches in general.

      As far as my comments to Martin goes, same story, my view that there is no such thing as some sort of higher power or connection that cannot be evidently measured scientifically is not unusual and a person who might insist that they “know” there is or is none is a person who simply does not know that they do not know, and therefore are a superior omniscient being or delusional on that particular subject.

      Cheers, Mario

    • Benjamin December 17, 2012, 8:44 am

      Mario,

      Suggest away, but I know I’ve misunderstood nothing. Yes, I know you WERE (in your first post) just speaking your mind. I can respect that, and did. But then you did what “hunter” Jill did…

      Your agreement with martin the butt-mouthed shooter — no matter your appended caveat, based on a clearly twisted meaning of my words as it was — is an indirect way of saying what I said I would dish out scorn for. I would’ve spared you, and even Jill, but you guys HAD TO brandish your own @ss-mouths when martin took aim and fired.

      And HELL NO! it’s not just a “today” thing that has me all upset. Yall wanted a slow-cooked frog. Well, the pot is full boil. I won’t simmer down until this war for the soul of my country is won back from the hands of those who have corrupted her and cheerlead her fall into total tyranny.

      CHEERS! (you happy, weasely little sheep)

    • PhotoRadarScam December 17, 2012, 3:02 pm

      Ban guns, and they’ll just choose other weapons.
      22 Kids Stabbed in China:
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248054/China-stabbing-22-children-elderly-woman-stabbed-outside-primary-school-Chinese-knifeman.html

      Is it preferable that they be stabbed rather than shot?

      2 Stabbed at Casper College:
      http://trib.com/news/local/casper/police-investigate-killings-at-casper-college-hawthorne-avenue/article_5922b5e9-67c6-52f4-b3f2-049a0ac63f1b.html

      Both are within the past month.