Living Off the Grid

[In the guest commentary below, Ricks Picks forum regular ‘Oregon’ details some of the steps that he and his family have taken to live off-the-grid. Try to imagine what your life would be like if your home were without power for days or even weeks or longer. The author has done many things to insulate his household from such a catastrophe while saving serious money on utility bills. He has also gained the peace of mind that comes with simplifying one’s life. Perhaps his experience will inspire some of you to take steps of your own toward self-sufficiency. RA]

What is off-grid living?  In the simplest terms, off-grid living is taking responsibility for one’s way of life, which means sustaining one’s own water, energy, and waste systems.  Although off-grid living means there is no one to yell at if the power is out, the water isn’t running, or the s**t isn’t running downhill, it also means peace of mind when nearly everyone else is without one or more utilities.  Other benefits include no one demanding payment each month for utilities, nor having to give legal easement to utility companies. The on-site production of food, building materials and an income source will round out true off-grid living, but makes it far more complex.

As with any major decision in one’s life — and the decision to move off-grid is indeed a major decision — you should “know thyself” before attempting it. Can you handle the role of systems manager?  Can you simplify your lifestyle; become more efficient with your time and energy?  Can you afford it?  Often overlooked, the upfront costs for living off-grid are huge and obtaining conventional loans is difficult at best and should be avoided.  The major theme here is to live more simply, and starting with a loan payment flies in the face of that.  Unless one has a rock-solid plan to make money from home, or a long-term acceptable alternative, the better option is to start small and simple with a plan that can expand as resources become available.

Covering the Basics

The basics of off-grid-living:  One will need a water source (well, spring or rainwater), energy sources for electricity and heat, waste treatment, and communications.  If you take one piece of advice from this article, start with a subscription to Home Power magazine. I have found no better nor cheaper resource for all the information one will need to inspire, design, build, maintain or simply validate electrical, heating, and other associated systems for the off-grid home.

Having the basic resources for off-grid living may dictate where you live.  Most places have enough sun to make power, a few have enough water for hydroelectric generation, but what about heat?  If you live in the tropics, fine; have geothermal, great; but otherwise, a large thermal solar/hydronic system and/or firewood supply will be necessary to keep warm.  I haven’t figured out how many acres it will take to supply a home with firewood in perpetuity, and of course there are many variables, but I will guess at least 25 acres to supply the average home, north of 40 degrees latitude, with firewood without having to look at a clear-cut for a wood lot.

For the off-grid home, efficiency is paramount.  ‘Energy Star’ ‘Green’, ‘Blue’ or whatever the enviro-awareness color of the year is won’t cut it;  proper site design, extreme insulation, LED lighting, and high efficiency appliances are required.

Conserving Power

Our family of four, including two children under 12, made the leap off-grid almost four years ago.  We are building a 3000 square foot straw bale home, with approximately five kilowatts of solar-power collection and an 1150 amp/hour battery bank, along with various charge controllers, inverters, etc.  We also utilize an 8000 watt propane generator for the low-production winter days. This winter I ran the generator less than 100 hours, which is about average, and haven’t used it since February.  We will also have five 4’x8’ thermal solar collectors for hot water that will supply domestic hot water and hydronic heat to the daylight basement slab.  Additional hot water will come from a wood fired boiler (custom-built) and space heat from a masonry heater (custom-built).  As a last resort, although primary at the moment, we have propane water heaters to boost, or supply, domestic and hydronic heat if we aren’t using sun or firewood.  We have very good southern exposure and many acres of quality firewood, so that when the whole system is up and running we should need very little propane, and mostly for cooking.

We make slight adjustments to live off-grid.  In the winter we don’t vacuum, use a toaster or hair dryer, etc. until the sun is on the solar panels.  Also, we only pump water to our holding tanks when the sun shines.  Basically we carefully consider every electric appliance before use, keeping us very conservative, but still allowing the modern comforts. Energy independence is not as difficult as it may sound, and has worked for us.  Less time on the computer, TV and other devices, has certainly made us a stronger family, and I feel the long-term benefit to my children far outweighs some of the “social networking” they may be missing.

  • mario cavolo May 27, 2014, 12:41 am

    Hi Rick,

    I’ll take the quiet board time to share an update on my Windows 8 experience, good and bad. I just installed it on my older x200 ThinkPad, which is a great laptop. I am amazed at how much better, smoother and faster my laptop now runs, of course it lacks the touch screen. The Windows 8 interface matches Lumia 925 smartphone and I am quite happy with how well it has delivered a much improved, integrated, slick system with the platform including Office, OneNote, Lens, OneDrive, Bing, music+, the new outlook platform, LinkedIn, Nokia accounts/services, fabulous maps/GPS, Nokia camera apps. app store voice recognition, all nicely, seamlessly at your fingertips. I’ve addded in the Kindle reader, an awesome translator tool which also has voice recognition, and I love the way you can PIN items to the screen. The Bing News app and other Bing features are now very well done, info and access at fingertips, bye bye google search. I don’t care about zillions of apps, I’m a business/life user not an app freak and they are adding more and more useful apps in a continuous stream.

    All sounds lovely?

    Hell no! :) All such good things said, there are issues AND learning curve here. #1. You are exactly right, this weird back-integration allowing switching back to the 7 desktop is far from lovely and easy. Navigating the 8 screen windows is completely different, can’t go back, have to hit the “Windows” key and then some of your stuff is open in the 8 platform and some of it open in 7 platform. Also, still trying to figure out how synch everything up so that what’s on my outlook/calendar and libraries/folders of docs/pics I want at my fingertips is accessible from all my devices I listed my preferred folders in the Favorites Bar in Windows Explorer, when I want to then fetch them, different folders are listed, huh? 

    Trying to come up with an analogy; let’s say the Apple OS is great, integrated, smooth, slick. While Android is open and different yet has more flexibility. Now put both systems on the same machine/smart phone and switch between the two depending on what you feel like doing as you are working. Confusion and what the? Nobody would do that. You either want Apple or Android, you either want desktop 7 or tiles 8. That’s reasonable and there’s nothing wrong with offering users those choices to freely decide what they prefer to use.

    And so it seems in making this transition forward to 8 is terrific as we enter the new world of a tablet/smartphone driven world. Yet,Microsoft is the mother of both platforms and so was forced to move forward in a way that allows backward compatibility.

    The litmus test will be this: use my devices 100% on the Windows 8 platform. From that experience, we’ll see what we’ve got here.

    Cheers, Mario

  • Redwilldanaher May 24, 2014, 6:36 am

    The fine goes to the people they bribed first off, it’s simply the second installment on the bribe. Pay 44 mil in the future, steal 4.4 billion in the present. I’ll take Barclays side, do we have a deal Garo?

    • gary leibowitz May 24, 2014, 5:03 pm

      With fair but tight control and rules that do not discriminate, real capitalism will take hold without the nasty side affect of greed. But most everyone on this blog believe government should step aside. You can’t have self regulation. Greenspan proved that point in spades. Every single incident happens when we open up the markets with no restraint or monitoring. Fix the political landscape where money can’t buy a candidate and you solve most of these problems. Start at the top and work your way down.

      Pissing in the wind. Not one person ever addresses my core complaint and way to solve it. The reason is simple. You would have to agree with me that government control should be tightened with rules that apply to all. Just look at the power hungry maniac in NJ. He had total control of his state, regardless of political affiliation until one person with morals and scruples stood up. Nice to see the system work. Just like the excess political corruption brought about the mortgage debacle. In the end capitalism does work. Unfortunately it seems to always go to extremes before we hit that “sweet spot”. The extremes this time around is a whopper. We will all pay dearly when the pendulum starts its sweep the other way.

      I got the dreaded “Your comment is awaiting moderation” when I tried to post the latest Chris Christie saga. Watch this one with fascination. He could single handedly take down big wigs from both parties and both states, NJ and NY.

      &&&&&

      Not sure how ‘Boss’ Christie, the biggest political bully since William Tweed, would do on the world stage. But I do know that, despite overwhelming opposition from the community, he is intent on ramming an Army Corps dunes project down the throat of Margate, the beach town where I grew up. This is despite the fact that the existing bulkheads do their job well, and that the dunes will greatly reduce the usable width of the city’s already narrow beaches. RA

  • Gary leibowitz May 24, 2014, 1:15 am

    Caught and fined. Banks brokerages insurance companies have been fined billions for wrong doings. So what exactly is your point? Did they run this with the sanction of governments? Once again you reinforce my position. Thank you. Greed and power thru lax rules and political pay offs. Do away with campaign money and it solves anywhere from 25 to 50 percent of these types of problems.

    • gary leibowitz May 24, 2014, 4:28 am

      Talking about scandal why isn’t anyone writing on the biggest scandal in the last 50 years? The Chris Christie saga could take down a whole bunch of very high profile political figures. Seems to now be focusing on Andrew Cuomo and NJ Port Authority Inspector General. It’s always the cover up that gets them. Pat Foye, NY Port Auth. Executive (and lawyer) who is painted as a hero for breaking this bridgegate scandal is himself under fire for not doing enough. He stated he reported it to the Inspector Generals office, but their first response was “No, never got it”. A few days later they revised their testimony but couldn’t explain why they refused to investigate. This can of worms now comes back to NY Governor and his supposed scheme with NJ on a faked “large” Toll hike, 2011, where they come off as saviors with a plan to boost the tolls at a much reduced rate.

      Thank You Chris Christie for outdoing all the other crooked governors. That is saying a lot. The epoch of greed and power seemed to coincide with the stock market crash. Christie epitomizes the reinvented “Tammany Hall” era. He could take down a lot of political big wigs. I suspect though that NY will be spared since it is a solid Democratic state with democratic politicians. My bet is that Christie is forced to resign.

      http://www.salon.com/2014/05/02/bridgegate_scandals_new_front_andrew_cuomo_pat_foye_and_what_the_new_york_side_knew/

      http://www.salon.com/topic/bridgegate/

      • Redwilldanaher May 24, 2014, 11:00 pm

        What the hell are you talking about? It’s not even the biggest political scandal of the last 50 days…

      • gary leibowitz May 26, 2014, 6:25 pm

        Really? All accounts of the Sandy Relief Fund debacle, Fort Lee Building Project, Bridgegate, and Toll Hike scam are now open to scrutiny. It pulls in a lot of players that would never be on the radar had the governor been your everyday average crook.

        In fact almost every event that happened under his watch is now being looked into. How about the 9/11 memorabilia that got sent to all 50 state governors. He was the ONLY one that used it as payback for endorsing him.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/nyregion/removing-9-11-artifacts-from-new-jerseys-nest-of-political-patronage.html?_r=0

        His outrageous bullying behavior was never challenged because of fear of retribution. Now that it is exposed he is game.

        Please name me another scandal of this magnitude?

      • mario cavolo May 27, 2014, 12:45 am

        A couple months ago I had met a guy here in Shanghai who was a Christie lover, couldn’t say enough good things about him like he was the perfect Jesus of politicians.

        They’re all part of the same nasty system and their souls and ethics will be unavoidably tainted to serve themselves.

        Cheers, Mario

  • Oregon May 21, 2014, 9:05 pm

    Update from 2 weeks ago…
    The measure in Jackson County, Oregon, to ban all GMO crops passed today, 64% in favor. This despite the record million dollars spent my Monsanto, et al, that was many times the previous record for a measure in the county. Neighboring Josephine County is attempting something similar, but even if passed will likely go to court because last year a rider was attached to a PERS funding bill, that was signed by the governor, that bans individual counties in Oregon from banning GMO’S. The paperwork and signatures were submitted in Jackson County previous to the funding bill and rider, so this ban will stand.

    &&&&&&

    That’s good news, Oregon. Monsanto is evil, but it will take a lot more of these local victories to drive a stake through its greedy heart.
    RA

    • Rich May 22, 2014, 5:15 pm

      Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas was Monsanto’s Legal Counsel.

      MON controls DC and is attempting an end-run around all state and local opposition by outlawing MON bans at a Federal level as restraint of trade.

      The only way MON Frankenstein food will be defeated is at the Federal level.

      They successfully sued soybean farmers for Intellectual Property theft after their GMO pollen contaminated organic crops.

      MON has more lawyers, money and politicians than God.

      It will be an interesting battle, but one which must be fought to stop terminator genes in all senses of the word.

      • Farmer May 23, 2014, 8:33 am

        Rich, they successfully sued a farmer up in Canada for planting their GMO crops without payment for use of patented seeds because the guy actually did it. The defense was that there was cross contamination and wind blown pollens but it was all BS. I was living in the region at the time and it was well known in the area that the guy planted Mon seeds. No accident at all. Not saying that GMO or Monsanto’s patenting is a good thing….just remarking that there was no big conspiracy or that a big company bowled over a little guy. He knew the risks and paid for it.

      • mario cavolo May 23, 2014, 7:04 pm

        I’ve always said Farmer that often there is more behind the stories than what we are told, that’s why I’ve learned to take what I read in the news with a grain of salt…hopefully not GMO salt, eh? 🙂

      • Farmer May 23, 2014, 8:18 pm

        We really have to listen closely to catch the agenda, Mario. It matters who is talking and what they are actually promoting. Take Michael Snyder of the Economic Collapse Blog as an example. You look at his site and see what he is selling to make a living. It is his own doom book of course and a lot of emergency supplies for preppers. Makes a tidy little business I am sure by catering to that special segment of society but he pumps so much gloom up our arses in the process I just cannot read him anymore. His agenda is easy to spot….others are a little craftier though and it takes work to get at the truth. I guess we all know that though. Be careful buying into the crap that passes for real information whether it be on the nightly news or on the internet. Almost everyone has a bone to pick with someone else and they all find the time to bend the truth to suit their own version of reality.

  • Rick Ackerman May 21, 2014, 7:34 pm

    Without Vlad’s presence, it’s like springtime in here.

    • Gary leibowitz May 21, 2014, 7:40 pm

      With perhaps a few showers.

  • Rich May 21, 2014, 4:41 pm

    FWIW High risk/reward trade

    QQQ MAY 23 2014 88.00 P – 10:35:26
    Bought to Open @ $0.21

    • Gary leibowitz May 21, 2014, 5:44 pm

      That’s 3 trades on those puts. You must be convinced we don’t breakout from here. 46 to 23 cents range. Good luck.

  • Troll May 21, 2014, 4:46 am

    Well, as we are all prepared to live on nothing, I guess we should just not trade and thank Rick for all the help in an HP course we’ll never need.

    I didn’t say it, you did.

    • gary leibowitz May 21, 2014, 3:37 pm

      I guess the definition of “getting back to nature” has been modified. There is no going back when it comes to technology. We love the comfort and leisure time it gives us. The “living off the grid” today is quite different where technology has helped people achieve this. The tools and materials, along with step by step “how to” diagrams and lessons are achieved with the flick of your typing hands. Instant knowledge via the web is a marvel no one wants to be without.

    • dk May 21, 2014, 4:10 pm

      Huh? Where did anyone say that?

  • Farmer May 20, 2014, 10:46 pm

    I appreciate the life you are pursuing Oregon. I spent a couple years off grid myself. Mostly alone though and in the bush country or remote farms in the Northern Canadian prairies. I guess I was a purist at the time. No gas, oil, canisters, solar, propane or electric allowed. Just a wood burning stove in a one room cabin, blankets over the windows in winter and some really unique methods to keep food from freezing and keep my daily life functioning as normally as possible without all the trappings of our modern society. I lit up the place at night with beeswax candles I made myself. What that teaches you about not wasting your own resources is incalculable as far as educations go. But what I really learned is that it is a hell of a task to live alone without all the tools and appliances we take for granted but also that it is possible if one chooses to make the effort. I learned my own limitations too and came to really appreciate the skills that others possessed in a thousand different vocations. Stuff people knew how to do well that I had never given a second thought too suddenly took on a whole new importance. The most mundane tasks that would not cross your radar in an organized urban environment need to be learned from scratch and learned well. Some mistakes simply cannot be made. Not even once. It is a major challenge just to keep veggies fresh and protected over the winter months if you want a reliable food supply, as an example. Preserving vegetables, meat, milk and eggs is a snap once you have some experience but it is best not to screw it up along the way. I had a pit design under the floor and plenty of sand and biomass cover for root produce to keep them fresh. It is all well and fine until the melt comes though and the root cellar starts flooding. Watching weather became one of my full time occupations. Off grid is great if you prefer to be away from most ordinary people and our societies dangerously vulnerable way of living though. If you can live without radio, TV, the internet and pretty much everything that runs on power the experience is transcendental and enlightening. But what it really teaches you is that the gap between our modern civilization and a primitive lifestyle is far thinner that most would care to acknowledge. We could go from here to there in a heartbeat. And I hate to say it, but if the lights ever went off for any length of time, most people would simply not survive. The distance may be short but the amount of knowledge required to return to our roots without our technology is vast and beyond the capabilities of almost every single person I know……except a few other farmers (of course) 😉

    • Farmer May 20, 2014, 11:32 pm

      I guess I never really got to making my point Oregon. It was just a thought that came to me after reading Mary’s post. She commented that you could live a good life off-grid if you threw a lot of money at it. And I agree. Most people thinking that they want to live like our ancestors do it from the perspective of trying to impose our trappings of modern society into the experience of returning to a more traditional way of living. The problem is that most of the off-grid people I have known are living lives that are not sustainable long term nor would their ideas succeed without a great deal of technological supports. They cannot really do it alone even when they suggest how independent they are. Their systems are vulnerable. What I think one who is going off-grid needs to consider is taking a much more basic approach to begin with and then adding back those elements of modern society that the new rural lifestyle will permit without conflict nor a drain on your mental and emotional resources. My experience is that all systems fail eventually. You cannot really feel secure if your water supply is reliant on a 200 meter deep well, pumps, solar, electricity, imported hardware and integrated circuits or computer equipment you yourself cannot service in an emergency. That’s all fantasy style back-to-land living when it comes down to brass tacks. The point is you need to simplify absolutely everything. Nothing of critical importance can be outside your scope and skill set on the day something goes wrong (like almost every week when you live alone in a wood cabin on a frozen prairie). For me that means most technology using exotic materials or production methods are totally out the question except for stuff I am pretty sure will outlive me without repairs. I love the sounds of your straw bale by the way. Too thin for my liking but we each have our comfort level. I am more the adobe and rammed earth type anyway.

      • Oregon May 21, 2014, 9:07 am

        Farmer, there are folks around here that have been off grid for over 30 years, while still living fairly conventional lives. One of my closest neighbors has been off grid, raised a family, worked the same job in town for almost 40 years.

        There is no going back to cave living as mary might suggest, I have no misconceptions about that. This is about us living a life that WE feel good about. Being off grid gives us boundaries for conservation we wouldn’t otherwise have, as well as the independence we enjoy. I am not trying to be the last survivor of the holocaust, nor am I trying to live some hippie fairy tale. I am surfing the middle between the extravagant comforts of modern living and the mandatory conservation of the past. I am pushing the limits, not so much with the individual systems, but with the combination of all the systems to make a big modern house very efficient. I can’t count the hours I have in research and calculations, so that when components fail, and they will, we are not shut down. For example, I have a hydronic slab in the basement, which is a slab floor with hot water tubing running through to heat the mass of the floor. The primary heater of that water is a thermal solar array on the roof which heats a reservoir tank. So just there, I must calculate the square footage, the insulation value minus losses for windows, etc., come up with Btu’s needed for worst case scenario, to figure out how many panels on the roof, and figure proper size of holding tank to prevent under or over heating. And that is just the primary heat source. Secondary is a wood fired boiler, custom built from fire brick, and feeding the same reservoir, with necessary calculations for sizing based on demand, type and quantity of firewood load, with maximum firings per day. And last is propane in case we are out of town or water from roof or boiler isn’t quite adequate. That is just the heat system, and because of proper design, most of it works simply by thermal dynamics, but is made more efficient with two small, very efficient pumps (<30 watts), which are the only moving parts in the system.

        I have approached the solar power (PV), water, septic and grey water systems in the same methodical manner to maximize efficiency and simplicity with fail safe systems whenever possible. And I do it because I like it, my mind works that way, and the money I throw at it is mostly in parts and materials. We could never pay someone else to build this house, or design and install all the systems, about 2/3's of the cost would be labor and that's where we save.

        Most all of the technology I am using has proven 20+ years life span, and I'm not counting on the end of the world, where I can't get replacement parts. But, even if all my electrical and propane systems fail, we will still have wood burning in the masonry heater/oven, hot water from the wood burning boiler, a cellar full of home-canned goods, wine and spirits, rain/creek water, and a compost toilet. That's as much peace of mind as I can hope for in this life.

        I like adobe/rammed earth also, very pretty, and works well in dry, sunny climate, but insulation is poor, more of a mass than an insulator. Not sure what you mean by straw bale being thin… with good compression and thick plaster, they are incredibly stout.

        I guess after all that B.S., my point is that we all throw a lot of money at life, I am just doing it a different way.

        What/where do you farm, Farmer?

      • Farmer May 23, 2014, 10:10 am

        Oregon, I commend your efforts. I wish more people took similar steps and made an effort to live more harmoniously with the environment. We waste far too much and rarely give Mother Nature a break anymore.

        Straw bales are a fantastic approach to construction and leave only a small energy footprint. Its why I am such a fan of earth shelter construction (my own current choice for a home) because its reduced demands for energy inputs in material production and subsequent energy savings are substantial. Especially in a cold area of the world like yours.

        I have traveled a lot around the Pacific Northwest (including Oregon) and throughout BC and the prairies. Been to more ghost towns and old mine sites than I can recall anymore. Some of the more interesting places were the abandoned Doukhobor settlements in the Kootenays and the remains of some old European communes on Vancouver Island.

        The Doukhobors were a devout Christian, Russian religious sect that believed in collective land ownership and independence from society at large. They practiced home schooling, built agricultural settlements and wherever possible created their own community enterprises to support themselves to retain that independence.

        Like yourself, they were also trying to live sustainably but more often than not with quite limited resources that depended on their own ingenuity and what could be sourced from their own lands and hands.

        Many of those old farmsteads had large centrally heated communal homes. The designs were sophisticated and well thought out to minimize energy usage. Not so long ago all that remained of some of them though were the shells of brick buildings and rusted out antique farm equipment alongside ruined irrigation gutters.

        Another interesting place I visited was the remains of a Dutch communal settlement in Cape Scott Provincial Park. It has been abandoned since the Fifties and little if anything remains but old stone steps to buildings that no longer exist, some chimneys where the bricks have been mined by others and a bunch of overgrown mossy lumps that are a mystery to all but the ghosts of the people buried there.

        These are not stories about the remains of great empires like Rome or Greece of course. There are not any amphitheaters, hippodromes or stadiums on those old sites like we see all over Europe and date back 2000 years or more.

        What these sites had in common was just a basic dream to live an alternate lifestyle separate from society either for political or religious reasons. They did their best to merge the modern world with a rural life and they are all gone now.

        It is true that no man is an island.

        Every one of those experimental communities failed despite the investment of hundreds of members (in some cases) contributing to the groups welfare.

        The costs were simply too high to model a reasonable level of comfort and civilization that reflected the technology and lifestyle of the day. As a result they could not be sustained.

        My conclusion has been that all modern technologies carry a cost that cannot be paid without considerable supports from outside the community.

        Sometimes those costs are substantial as in the case of acquiring and repairing farm machinery, maintaining food and fuel processing equipment or keeping heating systems operational such that those independent communities are really little more than satellites of the cities that lie nearby.

        They also faced considerable hardships where medicines and medical care were often inadequate or not available. Home birthing is a great idea until the mother, the child or both die in labor. An all too common occurrence in the past century.

        In short, they are not independent at all. Nor are they really off the grid unless that term only applies to electrical energy or gas coming by wire and pipe.

        This is problematic for anyone thinking they can really be living a life separate from the rest of society unless they have the skills and available resources to fashion tools and equipment, to acquire and make their own building materials or to provide the basic needs of sustenance while still keeping warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

        I am not criticizing you here by the way since you never suggested attempting that level of independence. My only point was that technologies can be a burden and usually carry a high cost that can defeat the best laid plans. Anyone who farms knows that there is a beauty in simplicity of design where the project you build just keeps working properly without a whole lot of care for years if not decades on end.

        When I hear people saying they have off-grid homes with radiant infloor heating, circulating systems, thermostatically or electronically controlled heat, light, power, solar and the like I often just roll my eyes.

        That is not off-grid in my books. Off grid is when you can collect, filter and make potable drinking water each day in sufficient quantity for your family and all the animals you might keep. And if you can do it without power and pumps you are doing it correctly and in a way that is sustainable.

        It is why even the Preppers will not survive a true economic and social collapse. They are far too reliant on packaged food preparations, generators, batteries and plastics to make it more than a year at best. Then they get the same fate as everyone else unless they just revert to stealing what they need from the real survivors.

        I live in the Third World now. I really marvel at how people in my region get by with the most meager of metal tools to build and make the most of scarce resources. Everything is done by hand and the only expertise that is known is what is passed down from parents to children.

        So they survive and thrive even without the benefit of internet, books and public school teachers. These are the remnants of a stone age culture that has lived continuously for thousands upon thousands of years with success. The key is to have the right knowledge and skillset, not the best modern technology.

        You know…..to live life off-grid………..like it used to be.

  • Rich May 20, 2014, 5:17 pm

    This discussion brought to mind memories of an ingenious British Teacher who opened a lovely college in Shiplake, England overlooking the Thames River Valley,

    He put it into Heritage trust, was sponsored by Land Rover and Michelin on a global tour to meet the wisest men of the world, was persuaded to come to Dallas to open a Boys School with an undefeated Football (soccer) team using his Inward Bound techniques, came to San Francisco to seed the personal development industry with a man who built a cosmetics empire and ran for CA Governor.

    He bought back to back buildings in the Sunset and built a proper English Garden Oasis between them.

    Wise men, some his former students, sought his counsel from all over the world as they built their empires.

    He adopted a son who married with children to carry on his creations. He moved his two gold Mercedes collectible convertibles to a river island in Oregon on 40 acres, landscaped it beautifully with religious icons from all over the world and raised exotic animals including Black Swans for private export.

    Once a year he taught a week-long practical spiritual seminar re the Great White Brotherhood on Whidby Island (The Rock) to founding families.

    At one of his seminars I brought him 10% of an unexpected windfall in Treasury Bonds. His public response from Proverbs 10 was, verse 11, Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, … verse 22, A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children.

    It took a lifetime to prove the wisdom of that.

    Best to all.

  • Rich May 20, 2014, 4:22 pm

    Adding to puts

    QQQ MAY 23 2014 88.00 P
    – 10:17:14

    Bought to Open @ $0.38

  • mario cavolo May 20, 2014, 12:51 pm

    More power to you Oregon…I long for and plan on at least getting outside of the congested, constricting city life…the simple life, space, land, fresh air, peace, garden, solar…what a lovely way to live…

    Cheers, Mario

  • mary May 20, 2014, 2:53 am

    Interesting. Wouldn’t say that 3K ft2 is roughing it. Nor using a vacuum at any time of day. You can get a toaster to use on a gas stove, see Lehman’s. I also wouldn’t call propane “off grid.” You must be joking.

    This sounds like a throw-money-at-it sort of answer that may be doable for this family, but not for most. And it’s not necessary. If you scale back, the costs are far lower.

    My approach would be to live where there’s better insolation and in a more modest house. Both lead to less expensive solar systems. Life style changes really go a long way–try relying on solar cooking/wood stove, for example. We did this for about about 2 years. We also had a hand operated clothes washer and dried clothes on a line. If you go to bed with the sun, your need for electricity plummets, and your health will likely improve. I’m sure we can all think of more if we think of how our foremothers lived…

    • Oregon May 20, 2014, 7:54 am

      mary, you bring up a valid point, in your own ‘special’ way. 3000 sq. ft. is not roughing it, and during the summer it is a waste of space, but during the winter when our very large extended family is here, and it’s snowing, or raining, it’s just about right. I don’t want to rough it. My plan was not to say, “we lived like our foremothers for 2 years.” My plan was to incorporate ‘my’ lifestyle into a house that is of ‘my’ design, built with ‘my’ hands, that is FAR more efficient than the average, using as many sustainable materials as possible, and stands up to the highest standards of craftsmanship. 18″ thick strawbale walls with over 1 1/2″ of earthen plaster on each side, with a daylight basement, equates to a 3000 sq. ft. house that doesn’t get below 45* inside on a 20* outside day with no other heat than the earth. I have used no supplemental heat in this house in over a month, only passive solar and geothermal, and the house stays between 62*-68*. We require no cooling in the summer, and the house stays about 70*, even on 100* days.

      Go to bed with the sun? In the winter that means 14 hours of bed. That doesn’t sound healthy.

      Propane is not perfect, but as my systems come on line I will only use it for cooking and as a third option for water heating. If I had to, I could live without propane. If you wouldn’t call propane “off grid”, than I suppose having a gas vehicle, or using a chainsaw, or using a lighter, is not off grid either.

      Of course, everything could be done simpler, more modestly, less expensive, that is a very valid point. However, I plan on raising my children, and living out my days in this house, with a wife, that I love, who doesn’t give a f*ck how the foremothers lived.

      “We also ‘had’ a hand operated clothes washer…”
      That’s a good one! Let me guess, somebody stole it!

      • dk May 20, 2014, 2:33 pm

        “18″ thick strawbale walls with over 1 1/2″ of earthen plaster on each side, with a daylight basement, equates to a 3000 sq. ft. house that doesn’t get below 45* inside on a 20* outside day with no other heat than the earth. I have used no supplemental heat in this house in over a month, only passive solar and geothermal, and the house stays between 62*-68*. We require no cooling in the summer, and the house stays about 70*, even on 100* days.”

        Just the kind of plans I have drawn up for my next home!

        Way to go Oregon!

      • mary May 23, 2014, 3:36 am

        Well, I have to give you a heartfelt thanks for a very gentleman like response, OR. Just wanted to say I’m happy there is a very large western state’s space between us so that our paths will never cross.

    • dk May 20, 2014, 2:47 pm

      Agreed. Why “rough” it when you don’t have to? What is the point in “roughing” it?

      This is cover all of the bases, not to have to be sacrificial.

      I’ve lived on virtually nothing, an incredible learning experience. That helped get my priorities straight and enhanced my perspective; you learn what “value” really is.

      Oregon’s example is pretty sweet – that’s what I’ve got planned. I might go cordwood with some other nifty features (have the plans for that too), instead, but the point is comfort and self reliance. It teaches you a lot about yourself, your family, and the world around you.

      • mario cavolo May 20, 2014, 4:51 pm

        My brother did an American Indian philosophy based isolation ritual….buck naked I believe, for 5 days out in the Flagstaff desert to clear out the cobwebs high and low…the organizer in their truck drove in once a day to check on him…he said it was interesting…

      • Oregon May 20, 2014, 5:19 pm

        “I’ve lived on virtually nothing, an incredible learning experience. That helped get my priorities straight and enhanced my perspective; you learn what “value” really is.”

        Profound, dk. Before we started building we put in a garden and lived on site, in a tent for 3 months (summer), then a small motorhome for a few more months. We had water from a well, electricity only if we ran a generator, produce from the garden, and bathroom was a shovel, toilet paper, and a walk into the woods. As you say, “an incredible learning experience”, about ourselves and this particular piece of ground.

        Cordwood is pretty cool, only thing I don’t like is that the wood is a thermal bridge. Nice thing about strawbale is all the tiny air pockets within create a thermal break. Weakness of strawbale is moisture, bales MUST be kept dry, but after plastering… badass insulating wall. Also, large roof eaves and overhangs are a must, and earthen plaster is the way to go – when done correctly, it is hard to describe the righteousness.

      • dk May 20, 2014, 6:12 pm

        Yea, Oregon, I haven’t decided which will be the choice when I finally break ground (soon I expect). Thermal bridging is an issue, but I have some ideas for that.

        A third option which I’ve given a bit less thought too is a geodesic dome, I don’t feel there’s a much planning or work required in that (amazing structures though).

        I house-sat for a friend in northern Vermont 2 Winters ago, that insulation rating must have been about R-52 to R-55. Amazing.

      • Oregon May 21, 2014, 3:28 pm

        dk, the geo. dome is one of the very few I would recommend against building. They are difficult to partition with interior walls, and placement of furniture and especially cabinets can be a real pain in the ass, causing a lot of wasted space. Also, unless you have wall to wall carpet the acoustics can be unbearable.

        Geo. domes would be best for a single person. Just my $.02

  • Rich May 19, 2014, 6:52 pm

    FWIW two trade updates

    QQQ MAY 23 2014 88.00 C – 12:31:55
    Sold to Close @ $0.75

    QQQ MAY 23 2014 88.00 P – 12:46:21
    Bought to Open @ $0.46

  • gary leibowitz May 19, 2014, 5:11 pm

    Envious of people that can use their brawn and brains. I know that in my case it would be futile to attempt such a task. While not averse to working long hours, I do get frustrated when my hands seem to be an alien part of my body. Concepts and abstract thinking is my forte. Not much use in the real outdoors.

    I would love to revisit Oregon. I visited two separate occasions and found wine, food, fruit, vegetables and general scenic beauty to perhaps rival any other place I visited. I am an avid photographer and am always looking for that secret spot. My health isn’t what it used to be, and I can no longer trek thru woods for miles.

    The notion of “getting back to the earth” is one that conjures up books by Wallace Stegner and David Thoreau. The satirist Bill Bryson’s “A walk in the woods” is as far as I will get to actually transforming my life into action. For me personally it will always be as an outsider enjoying a respite from the urban setting.

    • Craig May 22, 2014, 4:57 pm

      Wow! really? I never would have expected that you would be such a dependent person on the system, I don’t think you have ever defended the system in the few short posts you leave here from time to time……youn seemed so independent and rugged….

  • Mike May 19, 2014, 4:02 pm

    I’ve gone nearly off grid in rural Eastern Washington. I am pleased that I can live very inexpensively, that there is essentially no crime or pollution, that my neighbors are sympathetic, and that there is abundant local food. But I don’t want to stay there. My resources there amount to an insurance policy, but it isn’t a particularly good one because it is still within the United States. And it doesn’t fit my present stage in life where I need to be networking and making money, not contracting and conserving. There is still opportunity for growth in other contries, though it is slowing.

  • L fry May 19, 2014, 4:14 am

    Hi Guys, This discussion is right up my alley ! I’m the ONLY house that had solid snow on the roof 3 days past snowstorm , due to ” heavy insulation”. I put a 20 seer 2 stage heat pump in 2013. I kept my Gas heater for very cold , Dec, Jan, Feb. I had An ” appalachian wood stove ” put in my main fireplace 2 years ago with circulating fan. That bad boy goes for 15 1/2 +hrs on full load. I have Loads of blueberry bushes, grapevines , 2 apple trees + a Huge raised garden bed That I’ve been putting wood ash + used coffee grounds in all winter. These have high nitrogen levels. I live in a very ” high rent” district bout 32 miles North of Atlanta. I hate this place + the people. Would like to move to Alabama, Has bass fishing lakes every where. Most where I would go are on a well. I have a sturdy built Split plan , craftman ranch. Brick + Hardi board. The realtorss tell me ” that there is a shortage of good ranchers here as everyone built up, as way cheaper to build.” I’m on 5.34 acres, Good pasture front + side. Back needs reseeded. Direct-vent gas fireplace in master that has a battery operated remote+ gas hot water, Gas cook top. Huge walk in pantry. People drive by here all the time real slow. I’m thinking boomers who unloaded their 2 story Mcmansions may have interest. With what I’ve already done, I’d be better off than most around here if power went out. I’d be in deep doo doo, as My insulin needs refrigeration. I’ve had this plaque since I first turned 6 years old, I’m starring at 60 now Only because I was in the nurses station in An ICU unit when I first dropped dead. Had I not been there I would have ended quick like poor Tim Russert of NBC. The nurses then joked later” Lin , don’t you know ACLS protocals are not supposed to be practiced on Co-workers ? “Blue cross/blue shield would NOT pay for my life flight excuse being” it’s not in our network”. God Damn That company !I flew straight in to cath lab at St Joe’s, would have died at 48 had I not. I used to work there too. I turned down open heart over 10 yrs ago. Very good diet + alternative tx keep me going. Folks better GOTS now , As Jim Sinclair says. Things are going to get Dicey as foreignors are dumping US Bonds.I don’t want to be in north metro Atlanta if the SHTF, These ” entitled folks + their kids” will go Postal. Alabama would be safer + 4-5 degrees warmer+ fishing lakes. What do you guys think ?
    Best, Lin

  • Chuck May 19, 2014, 4:02 am
    • mario cavolo May 20, 2014, 12:48 pm

      Oh please….

      • Farmer May 20, 2014, 11:51 pm

        “Economists at Nomura have made their call: China’s property bubble has burst, they say, and the country’s economy could slow dramatically unless Beijing steps in with new stimulus measures.” ~~ Nomura
        ———

        It is a trick Mario. Read that sentence again (above) from Nomura and appreciate how they are gently prodding China’s leaders into even deeper waters. They suggest that the economy is in trouble unless Beijing introduces new stimulus. Sneaky isn’t it? What the Chinese regulators actually need to do is slowly take their foot off the gas; not stimulate more. More stimulus will in fact send them into an economic death spiral further down the road. But no matter. Nomura is a Japanese bank. No bad politics being played there. And no agenda either given the recent animosity between the two countries. I rolled my eyes after reading the article too…but for different reasons.

      • mario cavolo May 21, 2014, 1:40 am

        Nice thinking Farmer.

        The thing is an “autumn season” slowdown isn’t a plunge. After ten years of going up alot, a slowdown and flattening for a year or two or even three is neither a surprise, weird, unexpected nor a reason to hit the panic button. More specifically, real estate policy happens to be very tight in China right now, and so in the case of a slowdown, it is perfectly reasonable to loosen them and they have several ways they can do that. We can not call this unreasonable stimulus measures. Lowering the downpayment requirement on a mortgage from 30% to 20%, giving priority to first time home buyers are certainly not excessive moves and those two moves alone will probably be enough. And by the way, mortgage rates in China are outrageous, 7% plus, so reduce them to 6%.

        Anyway, for a deeper look, please do read the last few articles I’ve published at my author website.

        Hey, respect for the board!… back to Oregon…China’s farmers are truly living off the grid…we visited a few a couple weeks back…on the surface their life looks “shoddy” and they certainly work hard doing their work. But I easily notice all the urban crap they don’t have and don’t have to deal with, which doesn’t add one iota of true happiness to anyone’s life. They are surrounded by deep green nature, they have plenty of fresh food, air and well water, peaceful, quiet surroundings. Many are accumulating far more money than anyone realizes and they still don’t want to move into the city because they KNOW.

        Cheers, Mario

      • Farmer May 21, 2014, 8:31 am

        I was listening to Michael Pettis last night, Mario. He may be agreeing with you. His conclusions are that China gets neither a hard nor soft landing. What he calls it instead is a “long landing” where growth just tapers down for many years in a row until it settles at 3% or thereabouts. On the other hand it is worth pointing out that past GDP numbers are not sustainable indefinitely as credit growth has been exponential but economic growth merely linear. In fact, GDP has been falling for six years straight even as credit expanded many-fold so we can easily reason that there will be a reconciling entry at some point to bring those functions back into balance. Whatever kind of landing they get, the one outcome everyone will agree on is this….China is going to come back down to earth in the next few years and we should plan for the consequences of that outcome since we are certain that event is inevitable.

  • Erin May 19, 2014, 3:20 am

    Fun read and thanks Oregon. Only problem I saw with the off the grid thing was when you said you don’t use the toaster all the time. What is up with that? I believe I may have an addiction to toasted things. So without a toaster, you might as well kill me! Do they make battery toasters for extreme addictions like mine?

    • Oregon May 19, 2014, 5:48 am

      That’s damn funny Erin! The toaster is the enemy of off-grid. My sister-in-law came to live with us from the city, and lives on toast. I had to give her ‘the talking to’ about toaster power consumption. Worst thing about the toaster is ‘when’ you want to use it. Early morning is the worst time to use electric appliances (batteries discharged and no sun), especially something as inefficient as the toaster. It’s quite easy to make toast in a propane oven, and we do often, although it’s still not very efficient.

  • Rich May 19, 2014, 1:54 am

    Great article, Oregon and Rick, thanks.

    Beautiful country when the fog, rain and snow let up.

    Used to love Corvallis summer softball.

    May I also recommend salmon fishing holes and the 52 mile Rogue River Jet Mail boat Day Tour from Gold Beach with buffet stop?

    In 1926 author Zane Grey bought a miner’s cabin at Winkle Bar near the river and wrote his Western books, including 1929 Rogue River Feud and Tales of Fresh Water Fishing (1928), with a chapter based on a drift-boat trip he took down the lower Rogue in 1925.

    Personally salmon from waist to calf pulled out.

    In the 1930s and 1940s many celebrities, attracted by the scenery and wildlife, fishing, rustic lodges, and boat trips, visited the Rogue, including Clark Gable, Tyrone Power, Myrna Loy, Bing Crosby, author William Faulkner, journalist Ernie Pyle, radio comedians Freeman Gosden and Charles Correll, circus performer Emmett Kelly, and football star Norm van Brocklin.

    Bobby Doerr, Hall of Fame baseball player, married a teacher from Illahe, and made his home along the Rogue. From 1940 to 1990, actress and dancer Ginger Rogers owned the 1,000-acre (400 ha) Rogue River Ranch, operated for many years as a dairy farm, near Eagle Point. Historic Craterian Ginger Rogers Theater in Medford was named after her.

    Actress Kim Novak and her veterinarian husband bought a home and 43 acres (17 ha) of land in 1997 near the Rogue River in Sams Valley, where they raise horses and llamas.

    Generals’ Cabin was owned by Eakers, Spaatz, LeMay,
    Anderson, and Twining with it’s own secret landing strip.

    http://www.blm.gov/or/resources/recreation/rogue/files/rogue-river-trail-guide.pdf

    In other news, click on name above to see surprise news that could drive Mr Market to unexpected new highs.

    Cheers all.

    • Oregon May 19, 2014, 5:39 am

      “Beautiful country when the fog, rain and snow let up.”

      Ya, Rich, 11 months of that; and mosquitos the size of birds, or many so small you can’t see them, year-round; and volcanos; and red necks, oh my!…

      Nobody should move here… California is the place to be.