Time for Mortgage Lenders to Consider a Jubilee?

[Nearly three years of strenuous efforts by the Fed to lift home prices has not added even a dime’s worth of inflation to the average dwelling. Perhaps it’s time to try a new approach by bailing out beleaguered homeowners, more than 35 million of whom owe more on their mortgages than their properties are worth.  In the essay below, our astute friend Doug B, a Colorado-based financial advisor and formidable outside-of-the-box thinker, asserts not only that debt forgiveness can help return the real estate market to health, but also that lenders are likely to support it when they ponder the alternative of empty houses falling rapidly into an unsaleable state of neglect. RA]

With the latest round of discovery in the real estate market characterized by the foreclosure crisis, it is time to ponder the concept of Jubilee. Originally coined in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, Jubilee refers to forgiving of debt. Not being a student of the Bible, I shouldn’t try to interpret the reasons why it became law in the days of the Old Testament; but being a student of the Housing Bubble, I think I can weigh in on what it means for price discovery as we embark on the “C” Wave of the real estate market collapse. One look at the Case-Shiller Housing Index and you can see that calls for a bottom here or even another 10% lower is wishful thinking under the theology of Bob Farrell’s 10 Market Rules to Remember.

Household Debt Ratio

John Mauldin has written several thoughtful commentaries on how the carelessness in mortgage underwriting during the bubble will continue to create enormous friction in the foreclosure process, while revealing who the rightful owners are for much of the paper gone bad. Suffice it to say that the Financial Crisis still has some life in it from those perspectives. But I am more interested in how this will play out for the household. After all, I have been insistent that the Household Debt to Disposable Income Ratio has to revert to the mean with dramatic speed, much like oil prices did after that last bubble peaked. Back in the late 1930s, after the last secular credit collapse, the debt-to-income ratio bottomed below 30%. It spent the next 70 years climbing, finally in exponential fashion, to almost 140% before the housing/mortgage bubble burst in 2007. In order to get back even to high double digits, enormous amounts of debt will have to go away, because income growth cannot occur that fast even in the best of circumstances. And at the household level, mortgage debt is pretty much where it’s at.

With no one living in it, how long would it take for this luxury home in Tampa, Florida, to go to seed?

So, how do we get there? I suggest that the only way to get there is through massive mortgage modification, whereby lenders are constantly marking their asset to market, which is 80% or 90% of the market value of the collateral. I am talking about offering the borrower a principle reduction to less than 100% of the appraised value and at an accompanying market rate (currently about 4%), just to deter the homeowner from sending in the keys. This is going to be big. We’re talking trillions of dollars.

But why will the lenders do this? I believe that Mr. Market will leave them no better choice. Let’s start with an example: an 80th percentile 55-year-old with $150,000 household income buys a $450,000, 4-bedroom house on a golf course in Tampa in 2006 with $75,000 down and a $375,000 6.5% mortgage. Now the place is worth maybe $250,000 and there are several places in the neighborhood where the lawn isn’t being mowed. The homeowner still makes $150,000, but he can’t refinance because he can’t make the loan-to-value. Then he finds out that the average homeowner in foreclosure won’t make a payment of any sort for eighteen months before he gets booted. And why does he have four bedrooms anyway? Nobody ever shows up except at Thanksgiving. They could stay at the Holiday Inn Express. Oh, and by the way, guess what happens to a house on a golf course in Tampa when the owner sends in the keys and shuts off the air conditioning. It turns into a rotten tomato in a matter of months. He feels a little bit like a chump.

Homeowner ‘Boxed In’

I would argue that the lenders and mortgage servicers really want to avoid foreclosing at all costs…because of all the costs. They own more empty houses than they can sell by their freshness date, so why not kick the can down the road until the market improves? But the guy in the above example is boxed in. He reads about affordability being at all-time highs, but he is trapped at 6.5% on $375,000 in debt on a (hopefully) $250,000 pad! Did you know that the Mortgage Debt Relief Act of 2007 allows homeowners who stiff their lender to exclude the debt forgiveness from ordinary income for up to $2 million through 2012? Did you know that, before that, when you told your lender to shove it, the IRS issued you a 1099 (subject to ordinary income rates) for whatever the lender wrote off as a loss on the foreclosure or short sale? No more. At least until 2013. So perhaps “strategic defaults” will start driving the market at the margin. Maybe Wells Fargo won’t care that you just stiffed Bank of America when you make a 0% down offer at $250,000 for the place across the street that they own. Bank of America has no recourse other than their collateral. Oh, and serve that with a 4%, 30-year fixed rate, if you please. My guess is that Bank of America intervenes by modifying so they don’t end up with the rotten tomato. How is that for taking knife to the Debt to Disposable Income Ratio?

I have thought of many reasons why lenders would not want to cooperate in this type of transaction, but sooner or later, Mother Nature shows up in the form of Mr. Market and makes a mess out of convention. It almost seems absurd to expect the process to be orderly when we just experienced the biggest, broadest credit driven bubble in human history. On the bright side though, whatever clears the market quickest is probably the cheapest solution for everyone involved. By marking the mortgages to the market, the lender gets a big piece of investment back and lives to fight another day. The homeowner, who lost all his money, can start putting one foot in front of the other again too.

Price Discovery

All this leads to the question of what such a process would mean for price discovery. On the positive side, it would keep a lot of supply (no pun intended) off the market and increase the disposable income for all those households who end up making lower mortgage payments. On the negative side, it does create a bit of a “Pandora’s Box” problem, as this much of a write-down at the margin would do little to improve demand while reemphasizing the imperative to downsize. And most homeowners are hanging in there hoping for the same recovery that the lenders are anticipating. Much would depend on how distressed the process becomes and how severe the impairment to the banking system. There would be an enormous amount of pain and conflict between parties. One way or another, we have a long way to go in this new, deflationary paradigm. Principle reduction appears to be the most likely part of process.

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  • mario cavolo November 28, 2010, 6:03 am

    ….a wonderful comment and idea David unfortunately inbued with far too much common sense. Wow, a banker says “Hey Mr. homeowner, you can’t afford the payments to own your house because its value decreased substantially (doesn’t matter why). So, we’re going to foreclose on the mortgage since you can’t afford to own it anymore, ending your $2500 per month payment. (Owner: “Ahh that’s nice”). Oh by the way, we’ll make a new agreement to rent it to you instead if you like at prevailing rates which are around $1200 per month.” (Banker: Ahh that’s good – cash flow for our bank”) ..in fact the idea is impossible to argue with , therefore should be implemented by any sane bank manager immediately. But will that happen?…Nooooooooo

    Ahh but there’s a rub or two; in the above scenario which sounds like a great deal for both parties, the buyer’s credit rating is destroyed by the official foreclosure on their credit report. Is that fair under the circumstances?…I think not. Secondly, it puts the banks in the home rental business. But of course the banks could easily setup such a department to do exactly that.

    We’re getting into all kinds of fundamental market-driven rule and policy changes here, something our banking and political leadership doesn’t seem to have the will or capability to execute.

    Cheers, Mario

  • david November 27, 2010, 8:36 pm

    Some really good comments on this. I’d like to add mine, like the twit I am 🙂

    –I can’t for the life of me figure out why the banks don’t rent back the houses they foreclose on at really good rates to the occupants. The homeowners can stay in the houses, there’s little disruption, the community is maintained, etc. The banks could also give the homeowners some sort of right of first refusal to buy the house at a lower price and better rate. Seems not only humane, but smart.

    –this didn’t have to happen. My wife and I (if I may toot our horn) bought two houses in 2004 and 2005 for a TOTAL cost of $74k. We’re going to pay off the second one this January, Lord willing. Houses WERE available for cheap during the bubble, just not it Tampa! We refused to buy into the crazy market where we live, so we shopped around on the internet for affordable locations. A house is a house. It’s a place to live. As it turns out, if you get a good enough price, it’s not too bad an investment either.

  • F. Beard November 25, 2010, 11:03 am

    5000 years of history with P.M. Coin, and; Continental abuses via fiat and futures games are known. Steve

    Apparently the Romans used cheap copper and bronze coins with great success till the time of Caesar. In any event, taxing authority alone is sufficient to give value to government fiat. As for the Continentals, they were massively counterfeited by the British yet still worked well enough to win that war.

    But I advocate separate government and private money supplies. Government money would only be legal tender for government debts (taxes and fees) and private monies would only be good for private debts; they would be unacceptable for taxes and fees.

    Silver has been a constant “value” since before 1792 both in terms of legislative act, and allowing a merchant/ buyer/seller to have a constant against which to judge a value in contract/trade, ie; the ‘value’ of a Thing against a constant. Steve

    Yes, but that “constant” is variable in both amount and purchasing power. Furthermore, the danger is that by tying money to a commodity, that the economic growth rate is LIMITED by the production rate of that commodity.

    Government is force and the private sector is voluntary exchange. How can they morally share a single money supply? They can’t, I would bet.

    As for common stock money, I notice that corporations seem loath to dilute their stock by new issue. Why should they when they can borrow from the government backed counterfeiting cartel?

  • F. Beard November 25, 2010, 12:19 am

    As these comments imply, any collective bootstrapping has to be done on a per capita basis. roger erickson

    Elaborate? Should every adult get an equal bailout or in proportion to their savings for instance?

    Those who either did wrong or had wrong done to them, get a reprieve. Those who did the right thing benefit directly, AND indirectly too, by having neighbors who are no longer hungry, homeless & jobless. roger erickson

    Yep. Our money system is fundamentally unjust and has born evil fruit. Best we own up to that and stop dividing along the lines of savers vs borrowers. Both groups have been cheated; savers via artificially suppressed interest rates and borrowers via artificially inflated prices.

    It simply shifts the curve up, without changing the shape too drastically. (We’d then still have the time consuming task of putting many bankers in jail, but at least the jury wouldn’t starve in the interim.) roger erickson

    Yes, I’d hate to be a banker and face a hungry jury.

    • Steve November 25, 2010, 8:20 am

      F.Beard, I believe we are talking about apples and oranges here. Federal Reserve Notes appear to be territorial script in a feudal scheme to tally the worth of the slave. American several State Dollars have been a constant ‘value’ for as long as there has been a Republic, well; from 1792 on anyway, reaffirmed in 1985. Silver has a set ‘value’ going back as far as the Spanish Milled Dollar at 371 4/16ths grains fine silver. 5000 years of history with P.M. Coin, and; Continental abuses via fiat and futures games are known. The last futures “stock for money scam” for France ended with the Purchase of 1804 to the benefit of Jefferson. The concept that there is one form of money is bogus as U.S. Notes, Federal Reserve Notes, and Dollars are all spoken as if they are the same thing. These three are all money, but; one may be for the several States and the Sovereign in Common, and one for the territory of legislative rebellion and corporate enfranchisees, and the last for a private cartel of controllers of power via lending/money to indenture and change governmental forms via forced fee. That said, things I mention are equal in that all three are money. However, nothing else is equal in that Notes may be shaved and fiat is always used to deceive. Silver has been a constant “value” since before 1792 both in terms of legislative act, and allowing a merchant/ buyer/seller to have a constant against which to judge a value in contract/trade, ie; the ‘value’ of a Thing against a constant.

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 10:55 pm

    The essence of ‘value’ is a constant, and any form of money that is variable is the means of shavers and banksters from what I understand. Steve

    Hasn’t the commodity value of silver gone down since it is no longer required for photography? However, I doubt that the common stock of Nikon or Cannon has gone down. Why? Because as competitive companies they constantly adapt to consumer demand. So what is the better store of value, a metal that can plausibly be replaced by human ingenuity in the future with a cheaper substitute or a share in a company that invests in human ingenuity?

    • Steve November 25, 2010, 7:47 am

      Confusing “Value”, depreciation, inflation, of shaved money is a problem in the private world without a doubt. [money is anything, Coin of ‘value’ quite another] There are reasons why money cycles today, will cycle in the future, and cycled in the past. The value of silver in photography, jewelry, and Coin is being confused with the every changing whims of fiat, and abusive tally schemes in a feudal mobocracy versus the Republic. The human engine has been pretty inhuman in American History documented abuse of people, and nations. There is no constant “value” in the stock theory presented as stocks, and markets constantly flux just like a frn notes flexes and drives at the whim of shavers and banksters. This theory of ‘value’ in stocks is an American theory based in “holding” more than 1 person or family needs. Many place value at family, warmth, good games, and good food. The American now places value on how many he may control in the pit, or by illegitimate legislation, via I.P. manipulation, or by hoarding 60b Bill and Buffie. Mostly, there is anarchy against the Immutable Law of Fair Weights and Measures as a set ‘value’. Bill appears to be immoral, but; he wins; thus the american strives not to be moral, but; to win.

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 10:41 pm

    A confused electorate can end up pretending to borrow it’s own currency, instead of creating it? roger erickson

    What pretense? The US Government does borrow its currency except for coins which it mints. And that money is created as it is lent so it expands the money supply and taxes us immediately via inflation. So why is there any debt, much less at interest? And if the Fed resells that debt to private individuals, does that suddenly make the debt morally legitimate? Or is it just the moral equivalent of the buying of stolen property?

    That’s why I snort at the idea that we are indebting our children; there is no moral debt. Let them repudiate the National Debt or print to pay it off as they see fit.

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 8:01 pm

    I’m just confused by this matter – that driving a car gives value to money. Larry D

    Money is one confusing topic with various agendas at work. Mine is a true free market in private money creation so we can move beyond usury to genuine capitalism but there are socialist and fascist agendas too.

    • roger erickson November 24, 2010, 9:56 pm

      Larry,
      taxes giving value to fiat currency is a concept originally called “chartalism”, google it, it’s also on Wikipedia
      whether or not arbitrarily “convertible” upon demand to something, taxes become the dominant force driving everyone’s need for currency (you can barter or do without almost anything, but at years end most still have to pay some taxes)

      this page lists some useful historical links

      Public initiative and the beginning of US currency: A confused electorate can end up pretending to borrow it’s own currency, instead of creating it?
         http://www.monetary.org/briefusmonetaryhistory.htm

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 7:44 pm

    @Steve,

    Government money should not be an “IOU” for anything. It just confuses the matter. Government money is backed by its taxation authority. For instance, if I wish to drive then I must pay the Federal gasoline tax WITH GOVERNMENT MONEY. That requirement alone gives value, the ability to drive, to what some would call worthless pieces of paper.

    • Larry D November 24, 2010, 7:52 pm

      I’m just confused by this matter – that driving a car gives value to money.

    • Steve November 25, 2010, 7:28 am

      Commercial “Driver”, versus the Right to
      Travel a “Right of Way”. All driver’s licenses are ‘commercial’, and require a fee to use the People’s Right of Way. How one got to be corporate, and why the people are ignorant and refuse to be responsible in the jury pool is the real matter. I have won a number [3] of these matters about license in court. [once about every 7 years]. However, that does not mean that it is easy, or that next time the commercial theory/ exception to commerce will work. Living in ‘fear’ of the jury is not much fun. And as the last trooper said in February “Wouldn’t it just be easier. . .”]! Yep, sure would be easier, but; it would be immoral to know, and go against what one knows. Driver/operator ‘taxi’, ‘truck driver’, ‘government employee’, corporate enfranchisee are all licensed as illegal/unlawful acts in public, the state giving permission to engage in outlawry without fear of prosecution by taxation ‘fee’ to do business within the Right of Way.

  • James Whitaker November 24, 2010, 3:25 pm

    If you have Jubilee for one, you should have Jubilee for all home owners.

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 11:54 am

    U.S.Notes are debt in circulation from the War of Northern Aggression, or Lincoln Greenbacks. Appears that even that war is not paid for. Steve

    My understanding is that U.S. Notes are debt free. They are essentially a tax via inflation or seigniorage.

    IMO, U.S. Notes are the ideal government money form EXCEPT that they should only be legal tender for government debts, not private ones.

    • Steve November 24, 2010, 5:24 pm

      F.Beard, The “Notes” are against the Full Faith and Credit of the Federal Government as I remember. The note must be able to be exchanged for a “Thing” that may be exchanged for silver Dollars. I got a 1968 100 note some years back and went to work on that with the Federal Reserve. They will give you a Federal Reserve Note for the U.S. Note, but will not tell one what the “Thing” is, and as I remember there is about 300m supposed to be in circulation under the original Lincoln act to fund the War of Northern Agreession. I believe the U.S. Note is an I.O.U. in ‘Dollars’ under the Value established by the Coinage Acts of Congress. The U.S. note is usury free as I remember, and would be far better than frn. Even so, the 100 Note I have represents an I.O.U. for 37100 & 400/16ths grains of fine silver in Coin struck by the Mint for the several States. The essence of ‘value’ is a constant, and any form of money that is variable is the means of shavers and banksters from what I understand.

  • Terry S November 24, 2010, 7:55 am

    I humbly suggest a few basic ground rules here. For example, no ad hominem arguments like name calling (please see such as “commie colors” above. What do you say, Rick?

    • Rick November 24, 2010, 5:57 pm

      I expunge posts that cross the line, Terry. The one with the “commie” reference was right at my threshold, a close call, but I let it stand.

  • Bustamente November 24, 2010, 7:39 am

    Boy. Yay, capitalism. Until it bites you in the ass.

    I know, I know, you guys are crying, “But we never REALLY had a capitalist system!” Guess what? The communists said the exact same thing about communism.

    People don’t understand how capitalism works. You can tell by the responses about the f’d-over savers, and the ‘irresponsible’ buyers of houses.

    Irresponsible? Really? Tried ever to rent an apartment? A good place in a good neighborhood is extremely expensive. If you have 3 or 4 kids, you cannot even rent an apartment because the landlord says a 2-bedroom can only have 4 people in it. A 3 bedroom is impossible on the average salary.

    So the American dream of home ownership comes along, and you buy a house, because even at these prices, it’s cheaper than an apartment.

    But then you lose your job, or your spouse loses their job, or you get a divorce, or your parent gets sick and needs help from you, and then the proverbial hits the fan and bam you can’t make the mortgage.

    So what do you do in a capitalist system? YOU ACT RATIONALLY. There are supposed to be laws and contracts in place that are supposed to kick in when people cannot meet their contractual obligations. And people who cannot meet their obligations are NOT always the scum of the earth, as some of you spoiled babies want to portray them.

    There is no MORALITY in acting RATIONALLY. The laws act. The contract acts–that is what it is there for. And if there is no contract, then in a CAPITALIST system a RATIONAL PARTICIPANT protects their CAPITAL, takes care of their FAMILY (that’s the morality) and WALKS AWAY.

    When enough people WALK AWAY and do the RATIONAL THING instead of the BLEEDING HEART MORAL thing, THEN and only then will the stupid system right itself, clean itself up, and function correctly again.

    And functioning correctly means that bankers NEED TO BE REGULATED to act rationally and make loans to people who are credit worthy. GREED is not rational.

    Robert, act RATIONALLY. Why are you funding a corrupt system and depriving your family of money it may need in the future? How do you think? Why is it IMMORAL to walk away from a bad, capitalistic deal, BUT it is MORAL to screw your wife and kids out of thousands? LOL WUT?

    Do you really think life will be sweet forever? That you will have your job til you retire? Or your wife will? What do you think the Capitalist system will do to you then? The moral thing? Ha!

    What are the most of you saying? Don’t any of you remember the ’80’s, when there was more money to be made by stripping a company of its assets, laying off the workers, extinguishing the purchasing power of MILLIONS, and hollowing out the US? And this is MORAL to you people?

    Immorality is OK for the corporation, but morality is a must for the individual?? Are you f’ing kidding me?

    AND, all you lucky savers–yeah, you are lucky, and it may flip any time–who bought the house, are NOT upside on the mortgage, saved, and whine, “I did everything right.”

    Well, this is what you are REALLY saying:

    1) I’ve got mine. Anybody who didn’t get it the way I did, by hard work, saving, and sacrifice, should have NOTHING! NOTHING! (So, say my dad died and left me his estate after I’ve lived a prodigal life and am now ready to settle down–what are you going to do then? Eat your aggravation and kick the dog?)

    This leads me to an aside. People don’t understand the prodigal son in the Bible, either. He partied, and played, and his dumb schmuck brother stayed home and worked his ass off. Guess what happened then?

    Can I channel Sam Kinneson here: AWWWW!!! AWWWW!! AWWWW! The schmuck got told off by dad and the prodigal son got the fatted calf and a gold ring on his finger!!! AWWWWW! And it says so in the Bible!!

    2) What else is it you want? You’ve got your house, your job, your savings, life is sweet. You have the world by the balls. So what the hell is wrong with you if the guy across the street, who has been worried sick, is facing foreclosure, his kids don’t know what tomorrow will bring, and all the other bad things that happen with debt? Why should he not get a break? WHY? I’ll tell you why. Because you are GREEDY. I refer you again to the Bible: YOU are the Prodigal Schmuck. You still have the house and land, you are just angry that you didn’t take the RISK and go out and party.

    YOU played it safe, and now you are pissed off that you played it safe! Sucks to be you, right? Wait–you’ve got the house, the land, the spouse, the kids, the job, the money in the bank, and you are pissed off about it?

    YOU are not rational, either. You’re greedy.

    I do understand one thing very clearly, though. The United States of America has fucked over the entire western financial system with our CDOs and MBS’s. Thousands of Europeans have been screwed over. And we are damn lucky that we did not get invaded. We even fooled the Germans at Deutsche Bank. They are still trying to take possession of foreclosed property they say they own, BUT can’t prove they own.

    200 years, ago, all of Europe would have made sure to kick our collective American assess because we are thieves.

    Yeah, even those of you who “did everything right” are viewed as a thief by those folks who lost their investments, while US investment houses made billions.
    I guess we’re lucky we have nukes, otherwise we’d be toast.

    God, the people in this country are pretty stupid. Morality in a capitalistic, free enterprise system. LOL, how naive.

  • Doug Behnfield November 24, 2010, 1:29 am

    I think everyone needs to spend more time thinking about Mr. Market. I.e. How change occurs at the margin, where the action is! Enough with ideology. We are in a market crisis and ideology will have very little to do with it.

    • Robert November 24, 2010, 3:58 am

      Ummm…

      Could you elaborate on what the term “market crisis” means?

      A market is simply a collection of people trading goods and services, and that activity is still going on all over the world.

      I don’s see any markets in crisis. In fact- I see the exact opposite. I see markets that are breaking free of the manipulative influence of “the few” who have tried to regulate and herd “the many” for far too long.

      Free market forces are the ultimate superpower capable of correcting the distortive ills plaguing the global economy.

    • redwilldanaher November 24, 2010, 7:09 pm

      I’m with Robert on this one. Leaving behind critical ideology is what allowed us to slouch down this slope in the first place. Not only do I welcome a crash of the matrix but I’d be happy to help move it along by any peaceful means necessary.

  • ricecake November 24, 2010, 1:19 am

    Excuse me! Why my tax money to bail the big spender irresponsible home buyers out? They shouldn’t buy those house at the start. They shouldn’t use their house as the cash cows from the start. They should move out of those houses ASAP and let other people who have the cash to snap up those properties. Please don’t make one mistake after another from two side of the defected coin.

    The government should chase down those who benefited from the housing bubble trade and have them pay back into the system they destroyed. The bankers, the mortgage brokers, the house flippers ….. all of them should be made to pay back into the system.

    • andequip November 24, 2010, 2:12 am

      Hi Ricecake,

      What about all the “stimulus” and TARP 1 & 2? Why did we pay for that? All of that money was ours, but was paid to bail banks and their system.

      The fact of the matter is that the “foreclosure” process is broken, because of organized criminal activity. Why penalize the homeowner? Are you equally angry with the “Banks” and homeowners? The mortgage system is fraudulent, no matter how the property was bought, or how responsible the homeowner is.

      Also, now that the cat is out of the bag on the Mortgage Fraud, litigator’s will make it very easy for ANYONE to shun foreclosure, based on several recent court decisions. When that precedent is set, all homeowners will seriously consider ceasing mortgage payments. Then who will pay?

    • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 2:25 am

      If every US adult was sent an equal bailout amount, including savers, then who who would be hurt? The borrowers could pay off their debts and the savers would be compensated for years of suppressed interest rates. If United States Notes were used then no addition to the National Debt would occur either. And inflation could be prevented by putting the banks out of the counterfeiting business (via a 100% reserve requirement) which is what got us into this mess in the first place.

      So who would be hurt?

    • Steve November 24, 2010, 6:36 am

      F.Beard, Does anyone know about United States Notes, Federal Reserve Notes, and Dollars? U.S.Notes are debt in circulation from the War of Northern Aggression, or Lincoln Greenbacks. Appears that even that war is not paid for.

  • andequip November 24, 2010, 1:01 am

    Great article. I posited this concept several months ago, on this forum. Now, we have a different reality to add to this subject.

    The Mortgage Fraud Scandal, which has revealed a lot of fraud, deceit, forgery and outright theft, on the part of the bankers. It seems that your and my mortgage is no longer a stand-alone financial obligation, but instead has been chopped up and sold, in some cases many times, as a derivative morphed in US Gov’t guaranteed Mortgage Backed Securities. All of these title transfers from one entity to another, have been done illegally and in many cases, the original note is found to be null and void.

    This has created a situation in which ALL homeowners need to suspect their ability to obtain clear title, when you pay it off. What is the value of a property in which you cannot obtain clear title.

    Couple these facts with one more….when you bought your home, the money was not lent to you by the “bank”, but simply created out of thin air.

    As to the morality play, posed by some here, I say morality works both ways. In light of the criminal behavior of the big banks, I find no immorality in having my mortgage declared null and void.

    As to the credit to all play, I say, no credit if you do not have any skin in the game, i.e., paid at least 10% down.

    The bottom line is… your home mortgage is part of the BIG problem. The MBS/derivative associated with your mortgage is most likely fraudulent and/or insolvent. The banks want this hidden, to limit their exposure to a sudden sell-off of the bonds. Once the SHTF and the bond implosion comes, and it will, your/my mortgaged home will be on the block. Since the USG guaranteed these bonds, we are ALL on the line to pay for this mess, probably a HUGE “payment to the banks”. However, the banks will not be able to legitimately unravel the mortgage from the MBS. A real mess on steroids!

    Plus, when “systemic fraud” and “organized crime activity” are uncovered in open courts across the USA, it will crumble the whole Facist Business model along with the US bond market.

    You have been lied to, stolen from, cheated, mis-informed, and taken for granted as a “food source” for the whole corrupt system. In this environment, I think the focus should be to keep the people in their homes, without the threat of losing them. Jubilee not only helps these righteous citizens, but ALL of the citizenry, by removing the debt, dis-empowering the banks and will spurn economic growth faster, by putting $billions back into the local economy. What would you do with your mortgage payment $, if you no longer had to pay?

    As for the biblical aspects, I am no expert. I do know, however, that usary (the charging of interest on loans) is considered BAD and we have ALL been used.

    • redwilldanaher November 24, 2010, 7:05 pm

      I agree with much of what you wrote andequip but I especially like “As to the morality play, posed by some here, I say morality works both ways. In light of the criminal behavior of the big banks, I find no immorality in having my mortgage declared null and void. ”

      I would never have thought about intentionally defaulting on a loan that I put my name to 10 years ago. Now I just want to feel comfortable enough to do it. If I won a $100 million lottery tonight I’d be very tempted to let BAC deal with 1 more intentional default while paying cash for another home. Once you realize that you’re a sucker at nearly every turn in this country you start to feel differently. We’ve long been abused and as soon as a few million awake to it the banksters and their MSM puppets are outraged by our insolence. Although I know its the wrong path, I am also tempted by the thought of really responding to them in kind > – – – – – –

  • F. Beard November 24, 2010, 12:06 am

    This is a quote from the “good ole days” before fractional reserves and when money was just gold and silver:

    ‘They will fling their silver into the streets and their gold will become an abhorrent thing; their silver and their gold will not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD. They cannot satisfy their appetite nor can they fill their stomachs, for their iniquity has become an occasion of stumbling. Ezekiel 7:19

    This was apparently fulfilled just prior to the Babylonian Captivity. BTW, the city of Jerusalem could have avoided death and destruction if it had not reneged on its freeing of its Hebrew debt slaves: Jeremiah 34:8-22

  • Rich November 23, 2010, 10:22 pm

    Not sure Bill Gross was first with Jubilee or loan modification hasn’t already failed.
    Moses, Jubilee Prosperity website and Hank Paulson talked about it for some time before bait and switch.
    JP for some time argued the uniform 28 basis point transaction tax replacing the failed 1913 inflationary Fed IRS payroll regressive scheme, budget freeze and Friedman’s Steady Money Supply Computer as a way to avoid involuntary Jubilee.
    Fact is, instead of bailing out citizen taxpayers, we already had the Jubilee, namely the TARP taxpayer funded bailout of shadow banks that gambled and lost.
    HAMP PPIF TELF 0Care Food Safety RoboSigner all failed government jokes with 0 dancing on the edge of a volcano. All they did was raise inflation and taxes at the expense of freedom, while warmongers still create false flag incidents and US escalates the war in the graveyard of empires.
    Next may come debt default deflation with 0 resignations like no one alive ever saw…

  • Steve November 23, 2010, 9:47 pm

    I don’t think you can look at one ratio and say we have to revert back to the historical norm in the next few years. Debt to income ratio ignores the historically low interest rates. I could give you affordability ratios that show that housing is historically cheap. It all depends on interest rates. Now I know the consensus here will be that interest rates are going to skyrocket and the Fed will be completely unsuccessful in keeping rates low. But there’s also the argument that deflation is still in the cards and the collapse of other currencies will keep the demand for the dollar strong. I don’t claim to know what’s going to happen, but my guess is that housing stays relatively flat for a decade or more as spending/savings ratios work themselves out and banks go through their vast inventory of foreclosed properties. In the end though, it all comes down to interest rates.

    &&&&&

    Nominal interest rates are what matter. If your mortgage is at 5% and your home continues to shed 8% of its value per year on average — a conservative estimate these days for most U.S. homes — then you are being subected to real rates of 13%. That is what deflation means: AN INCREASE IN THE REAL BURDEN OF DEBT. Even Madoff wasn’t claiming 13% returns; and yet, perhaps 40 million homeowners are expected to continue to be the “supply side” of such yields. RA

  • mikeck November 23, 2010, 9:43 pm

    In a recent interview of Dr. Larry Parks, I learned the story of how a huge inheritance landed Thomas Jefferson in the poor house. He came about his dislike of paper money honestly.

    Also, Dr. Parks puts to rest once and for all the stupid claim that there is not enough gold for a return to real money. Click on hour one from 11/16. http://www.webeatthestreet.com/media/radio

    Mike
    PS: Forgive the double post…I also wanted this where it might be seen.

    • Benjamin November 23, 2010, 10:49 pm

      Mike,

      Do you recall at what time in show Dr. Parks talk about the non-excuse of scarcity?

    • mikeck November 23, 2010, 11:47 pm

      Benjamin,

      I do not remember exactly where that clip was…if I had seen your question before going out and raking leaves I could have listened again while raking. Anyway it is much simpler than your post about atoms. 😉

      I really think you will enjoy most of the interview. Dr. Parks really knows money…his website is fame.org His analogy for why calling a piece of paper with ink on it a dollar is insane is a classic.

      Mike

    • Rick November 24, 2010, 8:36 pm

      I’m a big fan of Mr. Jefferson, having graduated from UVa. But he was not much of a businessman, to put it charitably, and in pursuing an extravagant lifestyle and entertaining guests lavishly, he lived well beyond his means. That is how he wound up so deeply in debt.

      If you want the full story, I suggest reading Joseph Ellis’ “American Sphinx,” one of the great biographies.

  • Benjamin November 23, 2010, 9:10 pm

    To all,

    So you guys mean to say that for some reason, there’s deep division in views here? Tell me it ain’t so! But it’s not surprising. To make men politicaly/ideologicaly conflicted, impose something on them. And we’ve certainly had enough of that since civilization’s birth.

    The trouble is, we’ve never been trusted to decide how much funding governments receive. Why, we might not arrive at the “right” answer, on an individual to collective level. Best to not trust individual action, then. Best to decide by some king or queen or privileged group of academics.

    Once done, as it has been since dusty and ancient times, debt, resentment, and negotiation (politics) are destined to occurr. An ever-shifting sea in how force is applied, and to whom. Seeking balance is touted as a solution, when really it’s a matter of solidity of ground, with no fulcrums beneath us, nor any forces above us to lever them.

    • Robert November 24, 2010, 6:01 pm

      Benjamin-

      You bring to the forefront the fact that no government is infallable – Every government throughout history has failed, which does not bode well for all present governments… the odds are definitely stacked against them; and as you mention, the reason most governments collapse is because they attempt to over-reach, and end up over-legislating and debasing the currency.

      When the masses are not ready to embrace the utopian ideal, the Elitists run the legislation gambit. Erosion of freedom and liberty is the ONLY empirical result of these actions.

      I read a story by an Austrian women reflecting on how Austria openly invited the German government in to solve all their problems in the 1930’s. The summary of her account was that the Nazi’s were great for Austria- until they weren’t; and when that threshold was crossed, things got really ugly, really fast.

      We have to educate the American public on how quickly the final destination is reached when you start down the road of good intentions…

  • dan November 23, 2010, 8:47 pm

    fannie,freddie refinace ALL existing loans at 3.5% for 30 yrs. at the market value that county appraisers value for tax purposes. No more money given to banks or goldman sucks etc.All banks contribute to a separate fund of $75 billion.as per mortgages given over to fannie and freddieto be used for repair of houses that have fallen upon bad times( administered by local county officials)Then banks have no exposure and can start lending again to the public instead of to the fed.
    To fund f&f CONgress will cutspening across the board by40%..for the next 30 years and repeal all unconstitutional legislation since 1967.

  • Paulie November 23, 2010, 8:37 pm

    Instead of spending $13Trillion of present and future taxpayer dollars to bailout banks and bondholders all over the planet, another “option” would have been to bailout, to some degree…the very people that, over the past generation…50 years or less…have seen the value of their dollar destroyed via fiat valuation and at the same time, have been fed nothing but credit availability to enable them to become “rich” in name, only, since the early ’70’s. The mechanics might have been such that, each person, according to their age, might have been “allotted” a certain sum that would have had to be applied to outstanding debt in an order of precedence; say, first to a primary mortgage, second mortgage, lines of credit, auto loans, etc, down to credit cards, until that sum is exhausted. There would have been no option to go out and blow it all at the local pub. If there existed no debt, the person would have been required to place that sum into a qualified retirement account, thereby injecting that money into the capital markets/bond markets via that investment vehicle. Concurrently, by legislation, the lending agencies and secondary market participants would have to adjust their lending practices to requiring percentage down-payments for certain purchases, like cars, houses, or other large items…similar to what existed at the turn of the century, I suppose, but less in percentage terms. Additionally, the government would have to seriously downsize expenditures and back the currency with some basket of bullion, probably silver and gold. I’m laughing, too. Fat chance. But, that might have been a viable way out of what is coming. If anyone thinks this next 5 years are going to be a walk in the park, I want a double of whatever you’re drinking. We’re heading toward the financial abyss now that we bailed out the very people that, in a capitalist system, should have been wiped out; and, we had the temerity to do it with the next generation’s entire tax liability…indentured servitude for an entire generation! I’ll be surprised if the ball can be kept rolling for another 5 years, let alone a generational 48 years…either the value of those future dollars is going to become nearly worthless, or another way out must be found. Neither path looks jovial to me from this vantage…the vantage of history dictates this ends poorly. Only the hubris, vanity and pride of men would argue otherwise.

  • warren November 23, 2010, 8:09 pm

    Jubilee is supposed to happen every seven years. However, it is lunch time here and I will pay for it with worthless paper and not a “discredit card”. Oops! the price just went up anyway. See Ya

    • Steve November 23, 2010, 8:20 pm

      jubilee = bankruptcy = 7 years
      Golden Jubilee = return of Property to those who cannot be alienated from their inheritance = 50 years

      Bankruptcy was only held against one for 7 years.
      Loans were only made for 7 years.

      When did this change in America?

  • Susannah November 23, 2010, 8:03 pm

    Folks Just Don’t Get it!
    1.) Just about every pooling and servicing agreement signed by banks/servicing companies with investors in the loan pools that hold mortgage backed securities PROHIBIT ANY loan modifications.
    2.) When a servicing company agrees to a Short Sale or when they foreclose, they are paid up to 100% of the face value of the loan by insurance companies. All MBOs are insured more than once.
    The ideas above, while good, omit the 2 points above.

    • F. Beard November 23, 2010, 8:06 pm

      1.) Just about every pooling and servicing agreement signed by banks/servicing companies with investors in the loan pools that hold mortgage backed securities PROHIBIT ANY loan modifications. Susannah

      With a bailout of the entire population (both borrowers and savers), no loan mods are needed; the loans are simply paid off with new cash.

  • Eric-2 November 23, 2010, 7:54 pm

    whether someone has yet hit the ‘perfect solution’ or not… I feel that this particular dialog is in fact a badly needed part of ‘the solution’. Yes it is time to think outside the box. All ideas and suggestions (ultimately accepted or not) are helpful as important food for thought. Only through this kind of discourse will we finally discover the better approach to the new concept needed.

  • F. Beard November 23, 2010, 7:49 pm

    A bailout of everyone would not only work but be moral to boot. Consider the moral and economic implications of a “government backed fractional reserve banking cartel using the government enforced monopoly money supply” before you dare criticize borrowers. What is one to do with negative real interest rates in housing? Sit on the sidelines and be priced out of the housing market forever? Or do like many did and speculate in housing and the stock market merely to keep from falling behind?

  • donniemac November 23, 2010, 7:22 pm

    I see it as sitting between the proverbial rock (inflating the currency tremendously) and the hard place (allowing the current financial system to collapse and deal with the ensuing chaos). The route out has to deal with the housing values issue. I think a way to get out of this is to allow any and every mortgagee/home owner -owner occupied- to refi at 0% interest, either up to 80% of current value or mortgage balance, whichever is higher. A one time event. This gives the citizens who were sensible, or who have paid off their mortgages a crack at the pie, so to speak. Those who are deep in the hole would have PI payments equal to having financed their home at current values and rates. The lenders would be made whole. I would make these mortgages assumable to qualified persons to help with sales of existing houses. This program could be extended to landlords as long as current renters are given a reduced rent for as long as they keep up the lease. While it gets the government into our pocket in the short term, all one needs to do to get out is just that, get out.
    In recap, it makes the lenders whole, it allows those who are negative in value a payment more in line with the current values. I think it would put a floor on the falling prices, except in the most inflated areas. This would allow the “innocent” a crack at the money pie. And I think there is a way to filter the money line down to renters.
    An idea for discussion, :).

    • donniemac November 23, 2010, 7:24 pm

      I left out that I would expect this program to be a Federal one!

    • F. Beard November 23, 2010, 7:52 pm

      Price inflation risk is a red-herring since bank capital or reserve requirements could be raised to compensate for the new high powered money. The only ones “hurt” would be the uber-rich who would be less uber-rich with respect to the rest of the population.

    • warren November 23, 2010, 7:54 pm

      Do you really want to give those clowns another shot?

  • Robert November 23, 2010, 7:19 pm

    ok, all you “Jubilee”-ers out there are missing some important considerations:

    1) No American citizen is debt free. No one. Those that live in a house without a mortgage still pay property taxes. Those that drive a car without a lien still pay a fee to license the car, and another fee to license the driver.

    2) I’m going out on a limb here, and some will label me a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, but it is my contention that what is happening with the US Dollar is 100% by design. I say this because I believe that Alan Greenspan knew what he was talking about in 1966, and I don’t think he abandoned those underlying principles the entire time he was Fed Chairman. He may have guarded them behind a seemingly impenetrable shield, but look at the facts: Greenspan increased the Dollar supply by orders of magnitude more than was necessary every chance he got. He is not a stupid man- read his writing; and read the “Wishes and Rainbows” comic first published by the Boston Fed in 1981 (and re-issued again in 2007).

    To destroy a system from the inside out is the only way to make sure it’s destruction is 100% effective.

    The Jubilee will come. People will either be forgiven of their debts explicitly, or the system will degrade to the point that there will be no tactical way of evicting the millions of gun-toting defaulters. It doesn’t really matter which way it ends up- the steps one must take to prepare for either scenario are identical.

    • Steve November 23, 2010, 8:16 pm

      Robert, Not everyone is in Fee, or under License. The ‘cost’ to live this way is very high though. I would qualify; No corporate enfranchisee U.S. 14th ‘c’itizen is debt free, owing 400k the day one’s umbilical cord is cut gaining legislative protection of the congress’s rebellion.

    • redwilldanaher November 24, 2010, 6:33 pm

      Good point Robert. These people aren’t nearly as “stupid” or “incompetent” as they appear. They’re paid well to play the fool to our detriment.

  • Erin November 23, 2010, 6:31 pm

    Nonsense! Mortgage modifications need to happen in the context of a system that is free of intervention…Which means no modifications and you lose your house and someone else takes the financial hit! Here is the same ol… “The problem is just so big that we have to do something!!!” If you forgive mortgage debt people will continue to spend money they do not have. We need people to live within their means and save more. Stop subsudizing and stop the socialism. Those costs will filter right down to the taxpayers thru another transfer of wealth and I am not responsible for anyone out there except myself. You screw up, you pay the price!!! Period. The country will be much stronger because you will think twice about what you had and what you lost!

  • warren November 23, 2010, 6:31 pm

    Sorry, just giving everybody a chunk of cash won’t make it better. Surely you realize that most people would just go out and spend still “more” than they really have. Then, after they sobered up, the situation would be the same. You almost had me there.

    • mario cavolo November 24, 2010, 2:31 pm

      in the final reality, you’re right! 🙂 It just wouldn’t really fly…

  • nonplused November 23, 2010, 6:16 pm

    That is the worst idea ever. And I thought the clowns on Wall Street were making a mockery of the rule of law.

    Why not just send everybody in the US a check for $500,000 so the wealth distribution is even rather than benefiting only the clowns who got themselves foolishly in debt?

    The proper course of action is to liquidate and sell the houses quickly at market clearing price so they can be returned to the rental market at reasonable rents as soon as possible. The attempts to maintain an artificial price level are what’s hurting the market and keeping houses empty. Sure, prices will go way down, but that is what must happen in the wake of the bubble.

    • redwilldanaher November 24, 2010, 6:31 pm

      Great points nonplused. However, you’re guilty of applying 20th century economic physics in a 21st century dystopia. I’m not sure that’s wise! Seriously though, I do not support any further immoral nonsense from the federal government but I will state that I believe we all would have been better served if a check was cut for every adult American in the amount of an equal fraction of the $1 trillion wasted via “stimulus” instead of the way that it was doled out by the current group of sociopols.

  • warren November 23, 2010, 5:34 pm

    Who came up with the idiotic plan to “give everybody a chunk”. People should just stop spending when they have what they “need”. Nobody needs more than one safe place to live and enough to eat. Those who cannot provide for themselves must be helped but, to just “give everybody a chunk”, especially the middle class. How bloody stupid can you get.

    • mario cavolo November 23, 2010, 5:39 pm

      …half as stupid as just giving the chunk to the RICH folks Warren…

    • roger erickson November 24, 2010, 9:47 pm

      “stop spending” = “stop public initiative”;
      won’t help; because what we all always need more of is innovation & industry; hibernating is for bears, not competitive nations

      plus, what happens when “everyone” can’t provide for themselves adequately? (answer: you form a nation, and lower the marginal cost of both initiating “public spending” AND applying it productively)

      sitting in the middle of the road gets you run over?

  • Paulie November 23, 2010, 5:28 pm

    Well, it’s nice that “jubilee” is catching on; I’ve been touting it for two years inside and outside the site and chat room. But, I’ll give credit to “where” this idea’s genesis came from—Bill Gross. It was WELL before the real estate disaster began that I heard him replying to a question about the potential for a disaster in the sector, by saying something to the effect, “well, the only really good way out of what is coming might be to forgive the loans of those that have the mortgages…”!!! When I heard this statement, suffice to say I stopped looking at my screens and basically stared into the TV for a bit; it was obvious from that statement from such a figurehead, we were going to be suffering through a mess. The “mess” started within months of that statement, too. A real “jubilee” would have meant litterally “giving” money to everyone, which then would have been put toward paying off their debt, or, if the family/person had no debt, would have been required to be invested in qualified retirement accounts. The idea would have been to protect and “fix” the balance sheets of the average family/person; the banks and bond holders would then have been “Paid in FULL” as far as their principle was concerned!!! They only would have “not realized” the future interest aggregates, so…if they were managing their companies correctly, just what would be the problem? It would have been as though a lot of people hit a lottery of, say, $200,000/family, and paid off their debts…mortgages, car loans, student loans and credit cards. So the banks would have received their money, and those banks that were leveraged to the hilt would have been the only ones to really suffer, as well they should, since they were living only on the promise of the interest that was going to be coming for the ensuing years of those various loans. The economy would have contracted, but, I’d opine, we’re going to be contracting for a decade because of bailing out the banks and bondholders, under the current dynamics. If the balance sheets of the people were fixed, (with their future tax dollars, btw…), we’d then also need to move toward a more stable lending policy that requires down payments of some very real percentage for house and auto purchases; additionally, we’d have to move toward a more stable currency level, by cutting government outlays and attatching some sort of underlying bullion/currency combination/backing going foreward. But, that is not going to be easy, given the fact politicians are in charge of the purse and bankers are in charge of the money supply. Good luck changing that matrix. So, since we bailed out the banks instead of the people, the future is dark, imo. This will probably lead to some sort of default and at some point, require a re-issue of the USD. That…should really be something to watch—from Austrailia, ideally. The whole idea of a jubilee, in antiquity, was to maintain the “overall wealth” of the tribes, in relation to the other peoples in the region/world. The Hebrews made “work” a staple of their tribal life—you had to work and be treated fairly for that work—and, there were “lenders” and those that “borrowed” to enrich themselves over the years. Periodically, a Jubilee was declared to basically erase the debts, (basically, about once per generation, approx. every 50 years, and, a generation being approx. 48 years…interesting…soon we’ll have a generation of people that have known nothing but life under a fiat monetary system.). The collection of userous interest was kept to a minimum and the “rich”, by “forgiving” the debt owed them lost that future interest, but, they still maintained their lofty status, overall; the real important issue was that the overall “wealth” of the entire group was elevated, thus enriching the entire aggregate civilization. (Lending wasn’t always money, I could lend you 20 sheep and require you “pay” me with two lambs per year until the next jubilee…get it?). Other tribal people were therefore much poorer. Imagine how much more an army/soldier would fight in that case, in antiquity, with a sword…if they had their own level of “wealth” to protect and were not just conscripted fodder…? A jubilee-type approach would have done a lot, but, it’s too late, now. We’re doomed to suffer through this mess until it collapses of it’s own debt-weighted burden. The fools that prescribed the current bailout have sealed the deal. Hold on for a rough ride—it will come when you’re least expecting it. Got gold? Ammo? Faith? You better have something to hold onto. Mr. Gross knew what was coming and he knew what the most prudent way out was for the country. He knew the mortgage obligation instruments were mush and he knew the ratings were bogus, imo. They knew what was coming…and, they know it’s not over. Be prepared for anything, folks…we’re entering the dragon.

  • Other Paul November 23, 2010, 5:24 pm

    Creating the fractional reserve system blurred the line between the banks’ investors (stockholders and bondholders) and the depositors.

    I doubt that most depositors think of their checking and savings accounts as “loans” to the banks. One could argue, successfully, that credit unions’ members deposits are part of the banks’ capital.

    The creation of the FDIC’s less than full coverage for banks depositors balances again blurred the lines between bank investors’ funds and depositors’ funds.

    A possible solution would be to have:
    1. The banks write down (and down sa-more) its portfolio of houses, etc., which will, in many case wipe out the stockholders’ and bondholders’ investments.
    2. The depositors protected up to the amount of insurance amount ($250,000?). Yes, I know, “protected” by whom, you ask? Good question. A miracle happens here? See #3.
    3. Any uninsured deposit amount become the “pool” of new owners of the banks and any assets.
    4. New banking rules require that banks’ only lendable assets would be segregated from any new deposits. That is, only investors money would be at risk.

    After the four steps, above, probably everyone would be financially hurt, but there would be no rescue of banks’ stockholders and bondholders and the most innocent parties, the depositors, would own a hard asset (even if deteriorating).

    I would also add that those who perpetrated finance fraud should be prosecuted. Bankruptcy protections should not be allowed in these cases.

    • Steve November 23, 2010, 8:04 pm

      Bailment Depositum. Deposits in a bank are contractual. The only thing the depositor has is a contract to return the funds given to the bankster. The Bankster owns the funds and they are his to use as he wishes as long as he returns the Bailment from Depositum according to contract.

      Each night your banker lends the funds accounting ‘overnight’ and ‘banks’ the profit, EVERY NIGHT.

      The money is not yours when you deposit it. The funds are owned by the bank at their pleasure. You have a contract allowing the bank ownership in FEE, upon contract to return, or give a percent.

      As to fractional banking; it is simple shaving and a theft by misrepresentation.

  • DG November 23, 2010, 3:42 pm

    I should be clear in my statement about “giving something to everybody” before I get labeled a marxist or Commie. I do not advocate this. I am merely stating that if the government were to give money out to any party, they should give it to the debtor, first. This is what the intent of Jubilee was, I believe. (which is kind of funny…it would be interesting to get Lloyd Blankfein’s position on the Bible’s proposed Jubilee – “Well, God was really not a very good banker..nice guy, but very naive….It is too complicated….they really didn’t understand….”)

    The Michael Moore suggestion that somehow free market capitalism created this mess is absurd. What created it was the illusion of a free market, with the illusion of regulation, and the embracing of political and greed driven cronyism. We have not seen free markets in a very long time.

    Our system is so FUBAR, it is impossible to fix. It is corrupt and perverted from the top to the bottom. You cannot fix it by tweaking any part, it must be tweaked entirely.

    Sinclair seems to be right. It is the Buzz Lightyear Fed: QE: “To Infinity and Beyond”

    • mario cavolo November 23, 2010, 4:02 pm

      Whoa DG! Let’s have some fun to try to clarify reality…If you think the gov’t should ” give something to everybody” as an aid to economic recovery, might label you as a “commie”?

      What does thinking that “giving the freshly printed money JUST to the rich banking complex folks who don’t NEED it” make you…? Sensible? “not a commie? A loyal democrat? A backer of American freedom? What?

      There are plenty of let’s call them, socialist, pieces of the govt pie in American and European and Chinese and Italian and UK and French and Greek and many other governments…

      I genuinely think giving a chunk to everyone in the middle class instead of just the rich folks makes alot more sense than f*&^cking the middle class to benefit just the rich folks and I don’t consider that idea with any ties to politics, where I live or don’t live, which party I do or don’t belong to, just plain sensible economics…

      Cheers, Mario

    • Tom Paine November 23, 2010, 4:30 pm

      “What created it was the illusion of a free market, with the illusion of regulation, and the embracing of political and greed driven cronyism. We have not seen free markets in a very long time.”

      Well put, I concur 100%. A free market cannot remain free without some regulation, but there has to be a firewall between the regulators and those parties that have a vested interest in under or overregulating certain aspects of the market. Alas, given human nature such a utopian free market system has alluded us.

    • redwilldanaher November 24, 2010, 6:03 pm

      “The Michael Moore suggestion that somehow free market capitalism created this mess is absurd. What created it was the illusion of a free market, with the illusion of regulation, and the embracing of political and greed driven cronyism. We have not seen free markets in a very long time.” Dead-on IMO. I’d add a healthy, intentional dose of bubblization from the FED as per the suggestion of Paul Krugman and at the behest of their string pullers.

  • Mercurious November 23, 2010, 3:15 pm

    I don’t disagree with Doug on the premise. But he didn’t address the hot button issue that keeps popping up in replies above, to wit: If you want to up the ante on the angst over bailing out the banks, wait until you bail out homeowners and leave renters –many being minorities and lower income folks–out of the mix. You are going to see the seams come apart as one last intolerable example of political favoritism…and rightfully so. All or none…nothing for the savers, renters, frugal? NOTHING FOR NOBODY NOHOW.

  • Dave November 23, 2010, 8:15 am

    May I jump in here. I run a popular house blog on the net. While Im not a 50 something on a golf course, we’re in a similar situation. My wife and I are early 30s and bought a house for $500k in ’06. Its now at $300k.

    As my understanding, if we stayed in this house or walked away, it would not make much difference to the banks. Even if our house sat for a year vacant, the next owners will be paying a 30 year mortgage and all that interest.. whats that 3x or 4x its worth? On paper, I dont think the banks lose no matter what we do.

  • mario cavolo November 23, 2010, 7:35 am

    Thanks to Doug for a well written article. My critical comments are of concept not content 🙂

    The premise makes me go “Huh?”

    Here’s another way to look at it: A lender is simply pre-pre-selling a foreclosed home at a reduced foreclosed price before it gets foreclosed on, reduced in price to said $250,000 and, potentially, abandoned to ruin. So to avoid all that, the lender says…let’s pre – pre – pre give the guy the foreclosure deal since he’s going to go into foreclosure anyway.

    “…What are there, 100 million households? $20 thousand times 100 million is what? $2 trillion? …etc.”

    I couldn’t agree more on this, that they should give EVERYONE a chunk of cash, that’s a much more effective strategy than just giving it to the rich bankers. If Chairman Mao were alive, (that guy started out right then went very wrong) he’d agree 100%, give something to everyone, perfect communal state as far as he was concerned, regardless of the lack of common sense and other nasty problems associated with such governmental policies.
    Everyone should get a chunk , but the size of the chunk should vary depending on your household net worth and income as a percentage. For example, people earning $0 to $50k should get a 100% credit up to $30k. If between $50k and $80k, an 80% credit up to $20k cash. If $80k to $150k, $10,000. Over $150k, you don’t get didly, as well you shouldn’t. That’s fair.

    But unfortunately any such dreams will get buried in the impossibility of execution and corruption, not to mention our inept leaders.

    Cheers, Mario

    • Georgio November 23, 2010, 3:02 pm

      Watch out, Mari-O — your Commie-colors are showing! Also, your ‘sat-on-my-butt-and-didn’t-make-any-$’ jealousies show what a sissy you are…. Why don’t you and Rick simply walk away from your financial obligations and move to a Communist country instead of trying to completely ruin our free(er) system? Let the foreclosures happen more quickly. Resell them quick or recycle and bulldoze them! The faster all of this happens, the faster we all move on….

    • mario cavolo November 23, 2010, 4:09 pm

      yea its a thin line…but I still don’t have any feeling or sense that political ideaologies have anything to do with the debate…its about pure economics, or at least it should be…

      If I found out my neighbor got a debt break on his home and i wasn’t also offered the same break, and he in fact was able to pay his mortgage, but still got a break, I’d go postal! That aint right!

      Cheers, Mario

  • DG November 23, 2010, 5:37 am

    Steve hits a very important point. Clear the system. But it is a complex mess. How do we address all of these at once:
    1) The irresponsible borrower – why should they be forgiven? Where is the moral hazard?
    2) The irresponsible lender- ditto
    3) The responsible borrower who always new things were overpriced, sacrificed, and now waits for fair value, their opportunity to buy at the fair, reduced price.

    Deuteronomy and Leviticus were not written with fractional reserve lending practiced were they? Weren’t those simple loans? This changes everything. It makes forgiving loans virtually impossible.

    After the crisis, I thought early on that the only fair thing, if you wanted to free the lending system would be to fairly distribute money to everyone, the borrowers – not the banks. Everyone. Those that borrowed and those that didn’t. The banks and the regulators created this mess, and the taxpayers got stuck with it. You could do this with taxes, or cash. Essentially credit every household several 10’s of thousands of dollars. Pick a figure and it could scale depending on house costs, tax contributions, etc. At the same time, I think all credit history would need to be reset. Why not? It is not as if it mattered for the liar loan in the first place. The whole system was fraudulent so why grow a conscience now? In this way, folks could take their credited dollars, use them as down payments and start over. Those that squirreled away money could take advantage of a real floor in pricing.
    Sort of a Jubilee 2010 style.

    If folks wanted to walk from bad loans they could and start over. They have cash and credit and a new lease on life.

    At the same time, banks would need to be carefully scrutinized. If they were out of capital and bankrupt, see ya! There are a hundred million households with fresh capital. Seems a new banking industry could grow out of that.

    What are there, 100 million households? $20 thousand times 100 million is what? $2 trillion? Make it 4, 5, 10 it would still be cheaper than what we have done, and have created more repair.

    You could also just let the SHTF and let the market sort it out. This would be painful, but effective.

    Or you could do what we are doing. Leave the toxic loans in the system, float enough money to banks so they don’t drown, and hope that inflation makes it all go away. At the same time, exacerbate the polluted cronyism and corrupt regulatory-bank-political system. Which will leave us with not only a longer period of malaise, but also a less capable system of ever recovering well because the same culprits and systems which created the problem are only more empowered.

    • Robert November 23, 2010, 6:52 pm

      “Deuteronomy and Leviticus were not written with fractional reserve lending practiced were they? Weren’t those simple loans? This changes everything. It makes forgiving loans virtually impossible.”

      -Great point.

      In fact, Leviticus actually frames the Jubilee from a moral angle- the underlying message being that if you have excess capital to lend to your neighbor, and if that neighbor is unsuccessful in using the loan to elevate his standard of living to a point that he is able to re-pay the debt, then the Jubilee is the process of clearing the debt in a fashion that is least painful to both the creditor and the debtor…

      It is a rhetorical thesis that it is more moral and just to convert a loan to charity than it is to use the debt as a vehicle of oppression against our neighbor. “To forgive, divine…”

      Moral of the story: Never lend capital that you can not afford to lose outright. Fractional Reserve lending runs 100% contrary to this most basic tenant.

    • F. Beard November 23, 2010, 7:40 pm

      After the crisis, I thought early on that the only fair thing, if you wanted to free the lending system would be to fairly distribute money to everyone, the borrowers – not the banks. DG

      Bingo! But with a couple of additions, may I suggest?

      1) Let the bailout be with new debt and interest free United States Notes so as not to add to the National Debt.

      2) Adjust leverage restrictions on new bank loans to compensate for the new high powered money. If all consumer credit was bailed out then I suppose we could move to full 100% reserve lending without deflation and with no likely hood of an inflationary spiral either. That would be the end of the boom-bust cycle in the US. Good riddance.

      3) Let the distribution be equal to every US adult citizen. Politically, who could fight that?

    • Steve November 23, 2010, 7:49 pm

      Another point is that the Land was an Unalienable Inheritance to the Tribes, and People. This, an Allodial Estate, except the Original Contract was a Blind Contract endowment to the People. One could take a Fee as a foreigner, [The Lands of Judah, versus the indenture of a Benjaminite] but; the foreigner could never hold Absolute Title, only an inheritable Fee Simple Absolute Deed ending at the Golden Jubilee. Usury was allowed against the foreigner. As was voluntary slavery, and indentureship allowed. The Jubilee allowed those in Fee to start over, [bankruptcy]. The Golden Jubilee returned the Land to the ‘ inheritance ‘. It released the indenture of inheritable Fee, and it allowed those who wished to have their ear pierced, as a sign of voluntary slavery, to do so.

      Who are we that we may be viewed as a foreigner in this America?

  • Edwardo November 23, 2010, 5:35 am

    “I know it will have to end, but how and when is the question…”

    May I be so bold as to offer an answer to how, if not when, “it” will end. The “mark to make believe” condition that you referenced earlier in your response to this evening’s post will be trumped by the destruction of the unit of account used to mark assets to make believe.

    Put another way, “they” can mark their severely compromised assets to whatever dollar value they like, the fact that they are marked to dollars is, constitutes, in essence, a black hole of a problem. To those who say a hyper-inflation can’t happen here, well, prepare to be unpleasantly disabused of such a quaint notion.

    Whether we first descend into a full on deflationary collapse or skip that step and spiral into a hyper-inflationary maelstrom, both economic disaster lanes will feature the sovereign’s inability to make payments which will in turn involve a stunning repudiation of the currency of the realm.

    My guess is that the panic out of the dollar starts abroad. When that transpires, I couldn’t say, but that it will is almost as certain as knowing one’s own name. Be patient, and be prepared.

    • Steve November 23, 2010, 7:19 pm

      I assume Edwardo that by sovereign, you mean either the Feudal Lord, or the Sovereign in Common. The united States of America knows only one Sovereign as the Sovereign in Common, the Federal Government an inferior agent in agency to represent the Sovereign in Common. It is my belief that when one speaks of the federal government as a ‘sovereign’ the battle is lost, if not the War against governmental tyranny. No wonder people gladly admit to slave status by a Fee Simple Deed by submission to inauthenticity.

    • ben November 23, 2010, 9:05 pm

      I think Edwardo meant the Common Law Sovereign in Chief. And no not the foreign-born Imposter El Capitan Incognito..but the glorified, transmogrified Almighty that is the stuff of dreams and Hollywood movie pictures. Since we have moved away from honest weights and measures and now chase paper zephyrs, the raison d’etre for us is just a dream controled by those who fear our waking up and striking out at our unlawful gaolers. By the people and for the people, the government can never be called sovereign because it would violate all common law dictates and Constitutional edicts.

  • Benjamin November 23, 2010, 5:11 am

    Scalding hot, arctic cold… either way, someone is taking a bath.

  • Steve November 23, 2010, 4:41 am

    Wow! And who cares about the schmuck who doesn’t have a loan, didn’t lie, cheat, steal, to get a house that was too big, and who had some savings?

    • mario cavolo November 23, 2010, 4:04 pm

      exactly….forgiving debt or giving a credit to some but not others is the worst idea I’ve ever heard….

    • Robert November 23, 2010, 6:32 pm

      Steve and Mario are, in their own ways :), touching on the same underlying principle that ran through my head as I read Doug’s piece:

      The proposal exposes questionable morality. To be clear, I wear the label of the allegorical “Chump” in Doug’s essay- I own a mortgage balance that is about 15-20% higher than the value of my house, and yet I keep my loan current (at 6%).

      As a speculator I see clearly and logically what the most rational course of action is (strategic default). The numbers and local market conditions indicate that I could put my family into a much nicer house with a lower principle, lower interest rate, and lower monthly nut- and yet I was raised under the auspice of parents and grandparents who paid their debts, and I can’t get past the “distastefulness” that a default represents.

      I won’t argue that the banks and corporations on Wall Street are less moral than any/all main street mortgage borrowers, but fighting fire with fire only makes the fire bigger.

      The creditors are idiots. the debtors who got in over their heads are idiots, and the Legislators in Washington who enabled all of this insanity are idiots as well…

      Will history determine that the smart ones were those who abandoned their principles and went for the idiots’ jugulars at the most opportune moment…?

      I’ve tried to live my life as a righteous soul; but on this topic I must admit that I am very conflicted…

    • Benjamin November 23, 2010, 8:14 pm

      Robert,

      I have to agree on being conflicted. It’s one thing for two parties to enter such an impossible contract, knowingly, BUT… these days, babies are born into the debt system and are never taught that they are supposed to have a choice. Sure, they’re told they can work hard and save, and I know many try, but over time, it becomes increasingly difficult to save and productive work is increasingly harder to come by. And then there’s taxflation.

      The sad thing is, and I’ve been learning this in my ongoing study of history, is that indebtedness is not unique to this era. I was surprised to learn Thomas Jefferson was in deep debt when he died, for example.

      There’s a lesson to be learned in all this, but for some reason man kind has yet to do so…

    • mikeck November 23, 2010, 9:26 pm

      In a recent interview of Dr. Larry Parks, I learned the story of how a huge inheritance landed Thomas Jefferson in the poor house. He came about his dislike of paper money honestly.

      Also, Dr. Parks puts to rest once and for all the stupid claim that there is not enough gold for a return to real money. Click on hour one from 11/16. http://www.webeatthestreet.com/media/radio

      Mike

    • Benjamin November 23, 2010, 10:25 pm

      mikeck,

      Regardless of how Jefferson came to be in debt, that he did speaks volumes. Long story short…

      It is clear to me that the burden of taxation is the root cause of increased borrowing. More to the point, if the domestic buying/debt-extinguishing power of the currency is determined by the weight of credit extended by the citizen, there really is no need for generational/eternal debt whatsoever…

      …any more than there is a need to not use gold and silver. There’s more than enough for everyone, and the dollar weight can be revalued for a time longer than the Sun itself can last in this solar system.

      I didn’t listen to the link you posted yet, but I will when I get the time. I’m really curious what will be said! But for now, let me put it like this…

      150 decillion is the number of gold atoms in above ground supply. That’s enough for 1,000 countries to revalue their currency weight by a factor of 1 quadrillion… for the next 150 quadrillion years. The Sun is thought to have a lifetime measured in billions of years. And the best part is, using revaluation instead of taxation…

      a) let’s the bottom-up, from individual to collective, decide what amount of government power there is. The mob cannot at the same time be wealthy as government, and vice versa.

      b) encourages saving/discourages rampant price inflation

      c) allows most if not all debt to be settled in one’s lifetime (if not during the course of ones life, well before it expires)

      The thing is, the atom is relatively new, the hard evidence of thier existence being less than 200 years old. If I had to guess, I’d say it was the atom’s ongoing
      hypothetical existence, coupled with the rise of industry , accounted for why we’ve continued into the modern day to make the same 5,000+ year blunder of taxation and debt as all civilization has. No one could’ve enacted any other policies, given the uncertainty of atoms as well as the realities of industry.

      I think some day, history will see central banking as inevitable, given the circumstances of our forebearers. But the future generations, if not in our lifetimes, will see and practice things much differently.

      And really, the world is getting too big, and gold and silver too abundant, for that change to not occur. It will, whether anyone likes it or not. In fact, the Fed, having the lion’s share of gold, would be incredibly wealthy, as would their future generations. There is no way, short of being truly malicious demons, that they could deny this change taking place. Perhaps they are, but…

      Everyone, even malicious crusaders, have a price, just as surely as every monster has a mother. Call me a sucker, but I think Darth Vader has some good in him yet…

    • Bob H November 24, 2010, 7:57 am

      That schmuck should have paid attention to who he did or didn’t vote for. This country has been brought down not by people taking a chance but by Politicians and Bankers irresponsible behavior under the lazy eye of schmucks.

      Politicians they Guarantee this Guarantee that and with 22m government employees they pay nothing, leaving only schmucks to pay the bill.

      Bankers made money on the way up on the way down and still the schmucks fund them on the way up again.

      Repeat after me I’m a SCHMUCK, I’m a SCHMUCK, I’m a SCHMUCK, I’m a SCHMUCK, I’m a SCHMUCK.
      When you look in the mirror say I’m a DUMB SCHMUCK, I’m a DUMB SCHMUCK, I’m a DUMB SCHMUCK, I’m a DUMB SCHMUCK, I’m a DUMB SCHMUCK.

      Get used to it!

    • roger erickson November 24, 2010, 9:39 pm

      Sure, I’d vote for something like this. We’ve already been rewarding the wrong people, WS bankers, AND giving them a bonus instead of the boot.

      As these comments imply, any collective bootstrapping has to be done on a per capita basis. Those who either did wrong or had wrong done to them, get a reprieve. Those who did the right thing benefit directly, AND indirectly too, by having neighbors who are no longer hungry, homeless & jobless.

      It simply shifts the curve up, without changing the shape too drastically. (We’d then still have the time consuming task of putting many bankers in jail, but at least the jury wouldn’t starve in the interim.)

      This is, ironically, exactly what the operations crowd has been saying all along. Given enough time, all rational people converge to the same basic operations, no matter what they call it.
      example: http://www.moslereconomics.com

  • Andy B November 23, 2010, 3:56 am

    Good article. This may be where we end up.

    But aren’t the banks being floated to “infinity” by mark-to-makebelieve government policies, and an extremely generous monetary policy for banks? I know it will have to end, but how and when is the question…I don’t see the banks getting real when they have the Gmen at their backs.

  • Michael Schurr November 23, 2010, 3:21 am

    Once again Doug you hit the nail on the head, the problem is that bankers by their very nature are idiots and the obvious solution is usually the one they fight tooth and nail to avoid. I believe the bigger picture here has the banks focused on tanking the bond market, buying all the debt they can with government money for pennies on the dollar and ruling the world. Since when did they care about the assets on their books? We ar eplaying a shell game we can’t win. Nonetheless I like your idea, too bad the Wharton MBA’s have different plans for us.