Our Needs Establish ‘Intrinsic’ Values

[In the essay below, Rick’s Picks forum regular Robert Moore explains why a resource so very abundant as silicon could have value, but also why, like so many other physical things, most particularly gold, it is continually increasing in value relative to the U.S. dollar. RA]

Why all this recent focus on value? There is so much banter and opinion circulating today about “intrinsic value.” Most often, I see the term being applied to competing monetary instruments: Gold versus government-issued paper currency. Everyone insists that their monetary instrument of choice somehow has more intrinsic value than the competition. While I find these arguments entertaining, I can’t help but dwell on the fact that both points of view are completely short-sighted and arbitrary, to wit: 1) Gold has value as an electrical conductor that does not corrode. In fact, a ship wired with Gold would be able to sail the oceans for millions of years. This makes Gold vastly superior to copper, which corrodes and loses its conductivity exceptionally fast in the presence of saltwater. Now, just imagine an entire Internet wired with Gold — such a knowledge base would be nearly as timeless as the Universe; and 2) paper has intrinsic value in the fact that if we did not produce it, there would be far more trees around, and therefore less atmospheric CO2. So, paper is incredibly valuable to those who wish to preserve the fear factor that humans are destroying our planet via climate change.


Okay, the above points are intentionally facetious, but they are meant to drive home the point that value itself is subjective, and that arguing about it might forever label you as a fanatic (especially if the basis of the argument is a certain yellow metallic substance)

When people argue “value” in monetary terms, what they really mean is relative value in terms of some denominator. Cattle in terms of alfalfa, or Gold in terms of U.S. dollars, etc. The fundamentalist-styled economist at this point will usually jump the gap to basic supply-demand theory which implies that scarcity drives value up, and that abundance drives value down; however, to apply such rigid standards to value is to display short-sightedness on a cosmic scale. Value, as an expression of the desire to own something, is so personal and so individualistic that very few items ever provide adequate commonality to form fixed denominators; and even when they do, it is typically only for fleeting moments in time (like the willingness of 1,300 Titanic passengers to exchange the sum total of their life’s savings for a good sea-going raft during a specific two-hour period in 1912) .

I think that no commodity demonstrates this point more than silicon. Silicon is the second most abundant element on earth. Look out the window: every rock you see lying on the ground (be it a boulder, a piece of gravel, or grains of sand) is predominantly silicon in composition, blended with mixtures of various other elements in microscopic ratios. Yet silicon, as abundant as it is, is the primary cornerstone of our entire modern information age. Silicon is to the computer what Carbon is to the human. So, how do we resolve, or quantify the “value” of silicon? 1) Without it, there would be no complex solid-state electronics, which implies that silicon has enormous personal and societal value, and yet: 2) It is so abundant that we all maintain an unlimited physical war-chest of it below our feet, which implies that it has no value whatsoever.

Makes Gold Look Cheap

Enter the principle of capital appreciation. Computers are not made out of rocks. The silicon that forms the substrate of computer chips has to be refined to its most pure, crystalline, semi-metallic state. The cost and complexity of such refinement makes Gold refinement look exceptionally cheap and primitive by comparison. Simply compare the dollar cost differences between raw and ready-for-use silicon: 1) Unrefined Ferro silicon over the  past five years has ranged in price from about $0.5 to $1.5 per pound; 2) Refined solar-grade silicon has spent the last five years climbing from about $10 per pound to $200 per pound. So, if we assume an average price for raw silicon of $1 per pound, we can infer anywhere from a 10x to a 200x price increase based on our willingness to expend the time and effort to refine it. But why? The consumption of Silicon by industry has made it no less abundant in earth’s crust, and computing power is not getting more expensive — in fact, Moore’s law (that’s Gordon, not me)  declares that computer processing power will continue to get cheaper over time.

In other words, the supply of silicon is still nearly infinite, and its efficient use in electronics is still increasing exponentially (obvious as devices keep getting smaller and simultaneously more powerful); and, total global end-use demand of refined silicon fluctuates around a fairly stable mean of 400k tons per year. So, why then are silicon prices fluctuating around a mean that is increasing over time? Could it be that the denominator used to derive silicon’s “value-in-terms-of” coefficient is somehow skewing the ratio? Such a theory is easy to test:  Simply overlay a $USD index chart over a chart of the price of silicon (use either raw or refined prices — I don’t care). Doing so will leave the analyst with the perspective that if silicon is the second most abundant element on earth, then the US dollar must certainly occupy the number one spot.

Okay, not really. Oxygen is actually number one, but I think I’ve made my point. Government-issued currencies, when used as the denominator in determining prices (aka relative valuations), will always obviate the fact that currency values are falling against all real things — even an abundant physical element whose total mass on earth is measured in the sextillions (that’s 10 to the 21st power) of tons.

Please don’t ask me if I think this means silicon is flashing a “buy” signal or else you will have missed the whole point of this exercise…

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  • Terry S August 31, 2011, 8:15 pm

    Good one, Robert. When discussion drifts into epistemology it behooves one to nail down a few definitions.

  • Terry S August 31, 2011, 7:51 pm

    May I humbly suggest a review of “intrinsic” vs. “instrumental” values…. they are used interchangeable here.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 8:07 pm

      Can you define “value” please…. 🙂

  • Jim August 31, 2011, 7:09 pm

    My favorite use of silicon is in the blond that Rick uses for his adds. =) Preferably in a size D.

    • TM September 1, 2011, 3:44 am

      Isn’t that silicone, with an ‘e’?

  • dennis August 31, 2011, 6:02 pm

    Reading these posts I hihghly recommend that everyone get and red a copy of Ferguson’s (?) “When Money Dies”. It is an exraordinary piece of economic and social history of events and conditions leading up to and including the hyperinflationary events in post WW 1 Germany. We are certainly not what Germany was then, but what it does make clear is that inflation and deflation can occur simultaneously; that if you are on the wrong side of that tug of war your life can change (horribly) in ways you can’t even imagine; and that paper money decidely has no intrinsic value until it is tied to something that does. An example: Germans were selling anitiques and pianos and silverware in truckloads to French and other foreigners for ‘pennies’ just to acquire the the tens of thousands of marks that they could take to the store ASAP to buy food before the price doubled, or disappeared from the shelves by the end of the day. There is indeed a very dangerous currency debasement game being played out right now, on a global scale…not something which most of you on this forum need to be convinced of, I am sure. It may in fact be that, in this context, gold and/or silver represent THE ONLY OPTION to protect your wealth, unless you can find a feasible way to store and protect barrels of oil in your backyard…in any event read the book, think for yourself, and good luck..

  • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:42 pm

    Robert, I tend to disagree in regard to the people. People are pretty much a common organism with common wants, needs, and desires. The number of persons controlled by another varies, and the level of desire to control varies. Yet, basically the biological form seeks to control space, water, food, and breeding. The more an individual is focused on breeding, the more a single individual seeks to control more and more space thereby deciding breeding for the masses. The U.S. is on a course to control breeding across the World, so space, water, and food are sought so as to create the master breed of persons who will be just like ‘Obama’, or just like ‘Bush’.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 8:06 pm

      “The U.S. is on a course to control breeding across the World, so space, water, and food are sought so as to create the master breed of persons who will be just like ‘Obama’, or just like ‘Bush’.”

      -Oh joy- what a blissful Utopia that will be…

      Part of me dreads that Ray Kurzweil’s singularity will arrive as expected, and that the human conscious will truly achieve immortality, and on that day I will become locked in an eternal prison where I am forced to continue interacting with “personalities” (since the term “people” will be superfluous) whom I honestly can not stand…. 🙁

      I take some solace Steve, that you will be right there alongside me. Misery loves company.

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 9:02 pm

      @Both,

      Just wondering… Have you guys ever heard of the “transhumans”? I ask because Robert mentioned immortality and life as a personality that you won’t be able to stand (but probably wouldn’t mind, since they’ll “correct” that resistence before uploading you to the system!). And that happens to be the goal of the transhumans. I guess it’s spreading…?

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 11:37 pm

      Yup Benjamin- transhumanism is the premise I was alluding to.

      Besides Ray Kurzweil, read Nick Bostrum’s work on the topic. It can be fascinating to the open minded.

      I’m ambivalent toward the whole topic. I have no doubt that computers will surpass the human brain in capacity within my lifetime (I’m in my early 40’s), and we will probably be able to map the neuropathy (which maintains memories and experiences) of the human brain in a similar timeframe, but will we be able to take a map of a person’s existent memory and experiences, transcribe it onto a machine supported memory matrix, and have the end result be the transference of our consciousness?

      That’s a pretty large gap to bridge in my opinion, but even if it does come to pass, like I said- I’m not going without Steve.

  • mava August 31, 2011, 5:00 pm

    Avocado,

    I just posted a reply up above.

    But, reading this here, I beg you to answer: How is dollar money different from Tulips?

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:29 pm

      mava, your dollar is not my Dollar which is not a Singapore dollar. My Dollar is legislatively valued by the People as silver Specie money. The Mitt Romney corporate person operates in a sphere of tally notes called federal reserve notes. These are the notes of the territorial powers of the congress in their rebellion, and should be called Rebellion Notes, Slave Notes, or Enslaving Notes in script.

      The only question is; How many tallies can your corporate body earn to show your Master, the congress’s rebellion, how good a slave yee are.

      Any alleged ‘value’ in exchanging debt instruments (frn) is only a fantom created for the debtor in possession, tenant in fee, peon, serf, slave (Blacks Law Dictionary Fourth Revised Edition 1968)

      I will always believe that USE of FRN establishes a presumption of a Mitt Romney corporate person Created by the legislative/territorial powers of the congress to establish a REAL body mobocracy in rebellion.

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:34 pm

      Ph

    • mava August 31, 2011, 8:51 pm

      How about my favorite name for those: ‘Game Points”?

  • mojine August 31, 2011, 4:55 pm

    “…That be the $hark, rolling back its eyes.”
    I LOVE THAT!

  • Avocado August 31, 2011, 3:38 pm

    I’m very familiar with Human Action, Road to Serfdom and similar treatises. I read most of them as a teenager and in my twenties. As well as everything Ayn Rand wrote. They all made sense. I belonged to the Objectivist Society back in the ’70’s, actually invested my funds in a silver bank outside the country. Made money on it.

    What doesn’t make sense is how you go from the world we have based on dollars to a world based on gold. I understand why its more appealing, I just don’t understand how it happens in practice.

    What I think is more likely to happen is the bankruptcy of today’s society, so the number of dollars shrinks relative to the amount of gold, thus restoring the balance.

    I’m not going to say this is going to be pretty. It isn’t. A LOT of folks are going to get hurt. But its the only practical way I can see a resolution of the debt and credit crisis we have gotten ourselves into.

    Andy

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 4:50 pm

      “… so the number of dollars shrinks relative to the amount of gold, thus restoring the balance. ”

      In a twisted way, I suppose it would be. If fiat money were to “retract” in supply, that would mean the theiving classes saw nothing more to steal. “Balance” would come about from the fact that people had little or nothing left. Our fiat troubles solved. All’s hell that ends foul.

      “What doesn’t make sense is how you go from the world we have based on dollars to a world based on gold. I understand why its more appealing, I just don’t understand how it happens in practice.”

      The appeal is the means. Unless you prefer screaming hoards of mercenaries? That can be arranged, too. Again, the appeal is the means. Historically speaking, change comes about through bloodshed, and usually over money. Even most of the military support for the Revolution was given out of concerns of money (taxation).

      Pen or sword, the only way to get anything done is to make $$$ signs appear in peoples’ eyes. That be the $hark, rolling back its eyes. As I said… “what’s in it for me?”

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:19 pm

      Avo – the very premise in definitions is flawed in your presentments. FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES are not Dollars of the People, and never will be. The Con has conned the basis of any theory being presented here. The Sphere is the Sovereign in Common on the several States and the People’s money as ‘silver specie’. The illogical creator of REAL is territorial script created by high treason of the administrative branch, supported in violation of the Separation of Powers Doctrine by the legislative branch, so that a presumption of corporate nature can be assumed and enforced against all persons, Natural or Artificial, who all sign up to vote as corporate enfranchisees.

      Your conversation Avo is ARTIFICIAL in a sphere of mobocracy.

      Start understanding the Sphere Natural, under the Laws of Nature and Natures God (unanimous Declaration A.D. 1776)

      We do not speak the same language Avo – yours the words and treatises of mobocracy, legislative abuse, and administrative high treason. This is the sphere of the discussion. I attempt to work in the Sphere Natural. But, if there is any thought that we can communicate when we sit in two different spheres. Well Avo, that is why there is always a fight.

      I try to learn the Immutable Law, others find their REAL in mobocracy that a dollar is a fiat piece of paper that has existed more that about 70 years.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:59 pm

      “What I think is more likely to happen is the bankruptcy of today’s society, so the number of dollars shrinks relative to the amount of gold, thus restoring the balance. ”

      I believe (sadly) that you just might be right about that.

    • mava August 31, 2011, 9:06 pm

      “What I think is more likely to happen is the bankruptcy of today’s society, so the number of dollars shrinks relative to the amount of gold, thus restoring the balance.”

      In a perfect world, yes. Not ever in this world.

      You are then a deflationist. Your analysis of the problem is absolutely correct, and in perfect world running on money, this is exactly what would happen.

      This is not going to happen in this world, because it is running on counterfeit money. Any time there is any decrease in quantity of this so-called money, the FED is going to print up some more to compensate or even to create an inflation.

      In the perfect world, a point of deflation is inevitable, and no mine is going to obtain gold fast enough to compensate for this. This is called deflation and ends the leaching class dominance and starves it. For this reason, it is described as bad, a fault of gold money, and for this reason we are running on counterfeit money, i.e., to prevent deflation from ever occurring. (I am using the classical definition of deflation here).

      If you want to go deeper in this, then this happens because gold can only be mined and recovered, but at a very slow rate. It can be produced but at a cost much higher that it is traded for. Therefore, to counteract deflation of money supply with gold is an impossible task, for you would be better off just using the wealth directly rather than producing gold with it, but you don’t have the wealth to begin with.

      With counterfeit money, counteracting the deflation is easy. Because paper “game points” can be produced at a cost much lower than the value they trade for, you just take whatever the amount of wealth you have and produce game points, – and then sell the game points and repeat the process. In a fake money economy then, deflation can easily be counteracted and just as easily turned into an outright galloping inflation.

  • Mojine August 31, 2011, 2:42 pm

    @Andy The dollar is trading where it was three years ago against a basket of other depreciating fiat currencies in the well known “race to the bottom”. Where is it trading in terms of milk, eggs, butter, gasoline and even tulips?

  • Avocado August 31, 2011, 2:19 pm

    Nobody has yet to answer my question. I have heard “theoretical” answers, but my world is not “theoretical”, its REAL. So in the REAL world how is this supposed to work?

    Also, the US dollar is trading where it was trading three years ago. Not up, not down. Sideways. Yet gold has gone from $700 to $1900 over the same period.

    How is this any different than tulips?

    Andy

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 3:04 pm

      “…my world is not “theoretical”, its REAL. So in the REAL world how is this supposed to work? How is this any different than tulips?”

      But “supposed” implies the theoretical. As in… supposing I do take the time and space to explain to you the answers already given? (somewhat seriously) What would be in it for me to do so?

    • Earl Richards August 31, 2011, 3:09 pm

      Avocado, that’s a vegetable right?
      You didn’t grasp the easily understood explanation that Steve JH offered so I’d hazard a guess that you probably need to study just a tad more. I would suggest the Mises Institute. They have many sources that will help your education from the small pamphlet to multi volume books on the subject. Don’t get angry with others because you don’t understand, yet. The truth and knowledge you are looking for can’t be given to you in a short reply post. You must find it on your own.

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:07 pm

      Fruit is what an Avacado is biologically – yes, no ? Beyond that REAL is only a consensus of opinon in democracy. Absolute Reality is only created by an Immutable Law. No Immutable Law, no Peace and Goodwill ever – there will always be opinions in regard to what REAL is and there will always be conflicts and wars under democracy as a governmental form because REAL is only an individual’s opinion to which one person other agrees.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:54 pm

      Andy-

      Seriously- it would work the same way it worked prior to 1933…

      Bank or Treasury notes can circulate alongside specie money in a real and fair system.

      No one is saying that you have to TRANSACT in Gold metal. What is being discussed is the principle that a quantity of Gold forms the BASIS of the transaction…

      Your question is either a deliberate parrot of Ben Bernanke’s feigned ignorance, or it is simply rhetorical nonsense.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:57 pm

      Avocado = Fruit.

      Seed in center, surrounded by developed ovarian tissue.

      Vegetable = non-ovarian tissue component of plant (leaf, root, stem, etc…)

      See, and you guys just thought I was only good for philosophic waxing about money and silicon…

  • Steve JH August 31, 2011, 1:19 pm

    Dear Avocado,
    Quite simple. Just the way the British did it hundreds of years ago. Tokens or paper vouchers (promissory notes) are produced stating that they can be exchanged for a certain amount of gold at the local bank. This makes gold infinitely divisible so you can buy your loaf of bread, or jug of wine every day. It also has the very practical aspect that gold coins are not constantly being handled and thus eroded over time.
    The Founding Fathers had a similar idea.
    As for the Chinese, I’m sure that they would be happy to accept gold in exchange for their exports. I would!

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 1:29 pm

      Using e-commerce could also be done. If I recall, James Turk’s company, GoldMoney, does just that. The only trouble is, it converts to fiat currencies, by the gold gram/silver ounce, then allows you to make the purchase. Limited acceptability, as well. And that is no good. Still, it would be an easy matter to transact in tiny quantities that way, once the fiat kingdoms are done away with.

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 1:54 pm

      Not to hijack your post, Steve, but there is something I would like to talk about that relates to the transaction discussion…

      I actually wouldn’t mind seeing the paper vouchers or other tokens, in addition to the digital means. Neither one is really more safe than the other. There will always be counterfeiters and hackers.

      Our best protection against those would be a low dollar weight. Why? Well, look at it like this…

      Suppose you have 100 oz, .999 silver, in single rounds. Further suppose that a dollar was weighted at
      1 milligram. So each round would be approx $31k! So you decide to vault an ounce with a digital account. Another ounce, you desposit at a bank, for paper/tokens.

      If someone hacks your account and if counterfeiters strike, you’ll still have 98 ounces, or $3 million, that no one knows about but you. Still have to worry about burglers, though… But the point is, low dollar weights are highly protective of wealth, in as far as common circulation goes.

  • Avocado August 31, 2011, 12:59 pm

    Can someone explain to me how gold is supposed to replace the dollar for all the transactions that take place in dollars? And how the guy in the street would buy a loaf of bread with gold? And why the Chinese would stop accepting dollars from their largest importer of Chinese made goods?

    Thanks,

    Andy

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 1:23 pm

      Andy,

      I can’t answer the China question, but concerning how gold can be used to buy bread… What do you mean? Buying bread in normal times, or something like a “Mad Max” situation?

      If Mad Max, then barbarism rules, in which case… Who knows? But in normal times, we first need to know what a dollar weighs. Right now, the current USD definition is a Silver Eagle, with a face of $1.

      Yet, we have the spot price that says silver is worth much more, in FRN, and all bread is priced in FRN.
      But is a loaf of bread costs $FRN 2, and ounce of silver $FRN 40, then bread would cost 1/2oth of Silver Dollar, or 5 cents. Wow! As to how to convince people of that, just show them the math. You won’t get far, though, since the $FRN price fluctuates. As I pointed out in my first post, though, that is the whole point of stablizing a Dollar definition.

      Hope that answers your question!

    • mava August 31, 2011, 4:53 pm

      Avocado,

      First of all, dollar is falling. However, because every other currency is just as worthless as the dollar, it slides down just barely noticeably, but slides down never the less, even as compared to the crappy Russian Ruble! You take that slide, and add the slide of all currencies down (if you knew it), and you would be looking at a total dollar rate of depreciation.

      However, in order of not discouraging you from being fleeced, no one actually measures the performance of the dollar or any other “currency”. The only measurement is done against each other.

      This would be as if you and I were jumping from the plane, and I was falling a bit faster than you, but because we only measure my down speed relative to you, not the ground, I would be claiming that we fall with a negligible speed. In this case, the fallacy would be the comparison of a relative speed delta to the altitude.

      In our dollar case the fallacy is the comparison of total purchasing power to the delta of purchasing power between currencies.

      As for your doubt regarding the trade in gold, what exactly is the problem? You have not specified what, in your mind, is so different about gold, that you see a complication in trading it.

      Did someone told you that there is not enough gold? If yes, he was either an idiot or purposefully dissuading you with lies.

      Also troubling is your presumption that Chinese would rather accept paper than gold. They may-be red, but they are not dummies. They are currently converting as much of our paper to gold as they can.

      “To chose to trade in gold is to chose to deny any government their capability to create money.”

      Ask yourself how did the world work when money was gold. Because it was so. This should assure you that there are no principal problems with trading in gold.

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 5:01 pm

      Just an add Ben – Federal Reserve Notes are not Dollars – everyone and anyone can call the Fed and spend the time to learn that FRN are only notes, and they are valueless. (territorial script at that, not money for the People, but; for Mitt’s corporate persons who are created legislatively, instead of being the Master Creation of Our Father in Heaven – just a snipe for those who hate in hate)

      The word Dollar is still defined as 371 4/16ths grains of fine, 413 common silver in a Coin struck as Legal Tender for the several States. There are lots of ‘dollar’ definitions, in lots of states, across the globe. The word Dollar is defined legislatively for the People of the several States, and has been a constant back to the beginning of the Spanish Milled Dollar.

      An Eagle is a gold coin valued in silver specie money.

      To complicate the whole money discussion F.D.R. commited High Treason with an administrative gold dollar in the 1930’s. This Gold Standard is not the standard of the People, but; the standard of corporate territorial power of a governmental abusive form of mobocracy.

      All ‘legitimate’ money value is legislative, and thus in the hands of the People through their representatives. Bad voting knowledge, bad money policy.

      Common Knowledge is the problem in regard to all money conversations. Money is anything agreed by private contract between individuals. Sovereign Coin is a form of money agreed by Kings, and by the People of the united States as Sovereigns in Common. In England, money value has been in the hands of the People since about 1200 via the legislative powers, and kings and princes have lost their heads to the executioner over debasement with brass coins.

      Federal Reserve Notes are not the money of the Sovereign in Common, but; the money of extra-judicial abuses of power via territorial fraud commited because the voter does not know his arse from a hole in the ground, or the voter gains from the labor of the many hard working by kickback for voting for a power hungry person who wishes to tell all others how they should live and think.

      The truth is nothing more than a consensus of opinion in todays discussions.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:49 pm

      “Federal Reserve Notes are not Dollars – everyone and anyone can call the Fed and spend the time to learn that FRN are only notes, and they are valueless. ”

      – ok Steve- so your legal homework (unless you already know the answer) is HOW is the Fed legally allowed to print the ONE DOLLAR denomination on a valueless note?

      One Dollar is still actively legally defined as 371 grains of silver, and yet Federal Reserve notes are irredeemable… how is this so?

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 7:59 pm

      Steve: “Just an add Ben – Federal Reserve Notes are not Dollars – everyone and anyone can call the Fed and spend the time to learn that FRN are only notes, and they are valueless. ”

      You’re right, Steve. I only used the silver eagle illustration because it produced such a nice, round number, with the dramatic results I was in need of (“nickel” bread; appeal to greed). I just couldn’t resist!

      Anyway, 1200 England… Are you sure that the people of England had that power since 1200? Not calling you out, but I distinctly recall an incident in the 1600s, where the queen (I forget her name) made a change to the currency weight. The Irish didn’t much care for that, I recall, but in the end, the queens word stood against all other “gripes”. I’ll have to dig for that reference, but I do remember that it was well past 1200. I *think*…

    • Steve September 1, 2011, 12:33 am

      Robert, one needs to study 1, 8, 17, & 4, 3, 2 of the constitution with a glint on Title 31. Federal Territorial script for federal citizens of a territory may be called anything, just like a Canada Dollar, or Signapore Dollar.

    • Steve September 1, 2011, 12:37 am

      Ben, check out the Trial of Thomas Earl of Strafford, (overlord of Ireland, I believe)there the King and the Earl said they could act like the I.R.S. and inquire of the people for which they could be forced to loan to the government. Both lost their heads at legislative trial, for forced loans, embasement with brass – opps I just looked down and saw my brass ‘dollar’ from congress

  • F. Beard August 31, 2011, 11:55 am

    Fiat has a very high “intrinsic value”; it enables one to pay his taxes and stay out of jail. Top that, gold! However, fiat is being debased to support the government-backed and enforced counterfeiting cartel, the banking system. Otherwise fiat might survive a very long time as English tally sticks survived for 726 years.

    But let’s have a true free market in private-money creation and we shall see how well a shiny metal and usury can survive without government privilege. My bet? Not for long.

    • Steve August 31, 2011, 4:42 pm

      Silver in excess of 5000 years ?

  • mava August 31, 2011, 5:26 am

    Ravishing the opportunity to exploit the theme, I’d like to point out that our own government is now supporting the assessment that the dollar is doomed and will soon be gone.

    Where did I get that from?

    Well. If I am correct, and the dollar is soon be gone, then US will have this problem: how to acquire energy.
    It used to be that US would just print the money, in order to buy oil. Essentially, we pay for oil with paper. If the dollar is gone, we can’t buy oil so easily anymore, not for nothing.

    We can see, that the government pursues vigorously two directions now:
    1) To convert as many energy consumers to either more efficient use (main definition of which is “less”), or to an alternative energy (main definition of which is domestic).
    2) To conquer as many oil producing countries as possible, here the main point is that we will control their energy sectors).

    Here you have it. If US Government did not believe that the dollar is a dead man walking, then it would obviously pursue exactly opposite direction, because the more oil the world has to trade the more it would need our dollars.

    Stock up.

    • rmsimc August 31, 2011, 4:55 pm

      mava…with all due respect, I think you are on the right track but off the rails a bit. The USGvmt will not pursue domestic development of energy resources precisely because of the need to float the USD as the world reserve currency. Simply put, if we were to become relatively energy self-sufficient, do you think OPEC would require the ChiComs to convert their Rmb to USD? Nope! In such an eventuality, we would find that there are probably 3X too many USDs in circulation. That would obviously cut the value by 2/3rds…now that would be a bad day! TPTB will do everything possible to keep this so-called financial system on life support for as long as possible. Think about the earlier comment about “…one’s life savings for a raft off the Titanic.”

    • mava August 31, 2011, 9:20 pm

      rmsimc,

      Yes, of course. But, USG can not switch to the policy of domestic development until the dollar is no longer traded.

      This confirms my observation that the USG acknowledges the end of USD, I think, precisely because this is exactly how you would want to proceed:

      1) push for efficiency and alternative sources of energy (but, not oil just yet, because you need to support the dollar in the transitional period).

      2) occupy as many oil producing countries as possible

      3) once dollar had made it’s last trade, switch to domestic development of oil to further reduce the required purchase from abroad.

      Not how you’d do it?

  • mava August 31, 2011, 5:15 am

    Actually, to be more precise, and to support Robert’s point, the phrase “Intrinsic Value” can only have meaning from the point of view of a subject, i.e, us, humans. This is because value is a subjective quality.

    Intrinsic Quality or Intrinsic Property exist independently of our own judgment, as it is objective.

    So, it is correct to say that Gold have the Intrinsic Property all in itself, but the Intrinsic Value only in our opinion, as long as we understand and find valuable that to chose to trade in Gold Money is to chose to deny the government any ability to create money. Gold’s Value is thus extrinsic.

  • mava August 31, 2011, 4:59 am

    (Forgive me for reposting, but it belongs to this forum much more than where it was originally written.)

    I have come to conclusion that the case needs to be made and always pointed out that gold does have an intrinsic value.

    Wikipedia says: “An intrinsic property is an essential or inherent property of a system or of a material itself or within. It is independent of how much of the material is present and is independent of the form the material, e.g., one large piece or a collection of smaller pieces. Intrinsic properties are dependent mainly on the chemical composition or structure of the material.

    A property that is not essential or inherent is called an extrinsic property. For example, mass is a physical intrinsic property of any physical object, whereas weight is an extrinsic property that varies depending on the strength of the gravitational field in which the respective object is placed.

    For ex. in biology, intrinsic effects originate from inside an organism or cell, such as an autoimmune disease or intrinsic immunity.”

    OK? So, gold does have an intrinsic value, and it is completely within the definition of the term. It’s value is in an unique physical properties, among which widely quoted ones: uniformity, malleability, scarcity, etc.
    There is one more: Gold worth much, much less than is required to produce it. Combined with scarcity this means that the governments cannot profitably make gold.

    Read: Gold can not be produced for less than it is traded for (only mined). This is gold’s intrinsic value.

    In a honest system, where governments are held to Jeffersonian standard of respect to private property, the application of gold intrinsic value would be irrelevant.

    However, for as long as world governments are made of thieves, the application of gold intrinsic value is as an insurance that the purchasing power presented by gold is not diluted by inflation. This inflation-protective property of gold is thus extrinsic, i.e. having place only as long as thieves get elected or self-appointed. It seems to me, this this was, is, and forever be the case.

    Paper money, on the other hand, have only extrinsic value (beside very negligible intrinsic value). This value is attached to it by either the willingness of the masses to be robbed, or their ignorance of the robbery, and thus their use of the fiat, conditioned even more basically on the continuation of the government running the scam. NO INTRINSIC VALUE in paper money whatsoever ( negligible to subject at hand).

    For how much longer this needs to be pointed out and stressed, I don’t know, but it seems that too many are all too willing to repeat red propaganda of Krugman et.al. , and not willing so simply examine the case.

    ===================

    Robert, if you look out of your window, before you even see the rocks, you’re looking through silicon already. (just reinforcing your point).

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 10:26 am

      The problem with using “property” and “value”, interchangably, is that the two mean different things.
      A value is a measure, whereas a property is the thing being measured.

      And only one of the words can stand beside “intrinsic”. Gold has intrinsic properties. But measures/values cannot be intrinsic, since there is no such thing that exists, in itself, as a measure. In other words, while I’ve seen plenty troy ounces of gold, I’ve never seen anything that was in itself a troy ounce.

      Also note that there is no clash of objectivity vs subjectivity in understanding the difference between value and property. Both are observable. Subjectivity lies in the worth a thing has to someone. Therefore, the (measure/value of) _worth_ is subjective. But measure/value itself is not subjectivity. It’s an objective function of the human mind.

      I know this must seem like lots of nitpicking, but it’s important to keep that in mind when it comes to gold. There is not, nor ever was any subjectivity in the monetization of gold (and silver). Whatsmore, there is nothing among the intrinsic properties of gold that can tell us why it makes the best money. If they could, then oxygen and iridium also make the best money. But they don’t. Gold makes the best money.

      Yet, there is no subjectivity involved in arriving at these conclusions. Seemingly strange, but easily explainable.

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:43 pm

      “Gold can not be produced for less than it is traded for (only mined). This is gold’s intrinsic value.”

      Brilliant in its elemental simplicity…

      and, touche’ about looking through silicon in order to see the silicon on the ground… That point made me chuckle.

  • John Jay August 31, 2011, 4:16 am

    AP Exclusive: Up to $60B in war funds said wasted.
    What a load off my mind, I thought it had all been wasted! Now I feel a lot better about it all!

  • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 1:36 am

    Yeah, yeah, yeah… Silicon does many wonderful things.
    But is it flashing a “buy”? 😉

    Okay, so the $FRN is flashing a big “SELL”. Get rid of it, while you still can! Which brings me to a very minor point about your article, Robert. You said “government issued currencies”. But our government doesn’t issue money. You-know-who does. Government only issues the debts, because that’s all it’s good for (which of course means they would be no better at issuing money than the Fed, but still…).

    But getting back to the point of intrinsic value…

    It just bugs me to no end when IV enters the discussion, particularly when it appears next to gold. It makes gold bugs look like idiots when a (sigh) gold bug says something so asinine as “it has IV”. Good lord…!

    Money and markets being a human construct, Gold’s value is purely that of marketability. It’s many qualities, when viewed in that context, make it desireable to have and to hold and, according to some, to love. So, Gold’s value is marketability. But you know me. It’s still not as simple as THAT…!

    I always like to talk about how a real USD can weigh any amount of silver (since gold and silver will always trade, I used silver and gold interchangably, here). But what determines the weight? And who determines for how long a dollar will weigh xxx grains of fine silver?

    In the old days, the “divine right of kings” (governmental authority of some sort) could make a unit of currency weigh whatever the “king” wanted. Once done, it could last for as long or as shortly as they wanted. It all depended on what the “king” wanted or needed. A king would do things like tax heavily under a heavier currency weight, before dropping it and the tax rate lower. What a way to get rich (while minimizing the chances of losing your head!).

    So even gold and silver can be a bad idea, under a usurping authority. People figured that out, so next came the financiers. But I repeat myself. And, apparently, God doesn’t want the job of deciding what a dollar weighs.

    Seems gold has no marketability, then. It can only work with oppression and trickery. Or some kind of religious dogma. Sigh… Well, can’t say we didn’t try!

    Except that we’re not out of potential candidates yet. What of the market (people) itself? Can’t it decide what a dollar weighs and for how long? And if so, how do we keep the erratic swings from brining everything to a halt (or worse, back into paper and other authorative BS)?

    Answers: Indeed, what. Yes, it can. And that’s what Congressional Coin Acts are for!

    Imagine that. Some day, people will look at a current Coin Act, a future dollar weight, and then base their plans around them (but of course allow room for risks and wildcards).

    And people would actually be encouraged to save in doing things this way, by the very fact that dollar weights would probably lower over time. Yep. An appeal to greed. Is there any other way to make things work?

    That is the how and why gold and silver have top-notch marketability. Though much can be said about their more mundane qualities (stocks to flows, marginal utility, etc), it is the power to weight and mint coin of the realm, placed in the hands of the market, that make the two metals _really_ shine!

    • Robert August 31, 2011, 7:41 pm

      “Imagine that. Some day, people will look at a current Coin Act, a future dollar weight, and then base their plans around them (but of course allow room for risks and wildcards). ”

      Said coinage act is already on the active books Benjamin:

      One dollar is clearly and unambiguously defined as 416 grains of fine silver.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1792

    • Benjamin August 31, 2011, 8:52 pm

      Hey, Robert!

      Yes, I know. Venerable thing, too. What I find “odd” is that the Spanish-mill weight outlived the empire which coined it. Then, less than 100 years after our founding, we ran into a slew of problems, and had a civil war. The more things stay the same, the more things change? Sure looks that way!

      Anyway, great that we have a current definition. It’s that elusive future outlook that I’m looking for…

    • Steve September 1, 2011, 12:30 am

      Robert, that cite is Coin silver or 90%