If and When the Protestors Unite, Watch Out!

The protest that started nearly a month ago in the Battery now has a name – Occupy Wall Street — and we’re sorry we didn’t think of it first, since the catchy title – “Occupy (fill-in-the-location)” — seems destined to go viral worldwide. We’re not sure whether the demonstrators’ demands will eventually skew right or left politically, or perhaps in neither direction, but Mr. Obama and Rep. Pelosi have not wasted any time getting the jump on the Tea Party and GOP frontrunner-by-default Mitt Romney by presenting the demonstrators with verbal fruit baskets and bouquets – everything but the key to the city, which as of this writing was still in the safekeeping of Mayor Bloomberg.  To her credit, Ms. Pelosi zeroed in an actual reason for the demonstrations, even if the protestors themselves haven’t quite figured it out. It’s about jobs, she told ABC News in an interview — and that is undoubtedly on many of the protestors’ minds. But it seems predictable that the movement will come to be “about” many more things as the months roll by. What is not so predictable is who will assume leadership, or perhaps try to co-opt the movement from outside, as it spreads to every city, town and village in the Western world. But if protests should turn violent – a possibility that we’d rate an even-odds bet at this point, it’ll be interesting to see whether the Establishment that has rushed to embrace the demonstrators will start cracking heads.

Whatever happens, the protestors have nearly a year to build up steam ahead of the national political conventions.  Charlotte, North Carolina, will play host to the Democrats in early September, and although the event, with 35,000 delegates reportedly planning to attend, is expected to generate $150 million in business for the city, Charlotte may come to regret having been selected over finalists Cleveland, Minneapolis and St. Louis. For, much as Arlo Guthrie, Country Joe McDonald, Santana and the Grateful Dead were big draws at Woodstock, Charlotte boasts a superstar protest-magnet of its own – Bank of America — that could conceivably attract more activists than the convention attracts delegates.  You can bet the whole world will be watching – and one can only hope that the demonstrators by then have Woodstock in mind as a behavioral template rather than Chicago, circa August 1968. Republicans are set to convene in Tampa, Florida a week earlier, but we suspect that the extra miles between Northeast population centers and southwest Florida, not to mention the sweltering mid-summer heat, will inhibit the crowds. It’s possible, however, that if a huge throng shows up in Tampa nonetheless, that the city’s unique’y pleasurable waterfront scene will help keep demonstrators from growing surly.

Time for Honest Capitalism?

But even if the mobs are peaceful, they’re not going to be easily satisfied with hollow political promises to create more jobs.  The best way to do that is of course to provide tax incentives for small businesses to expand. However, it’s hard to imagine that this will be on their agenda. Or will it? The possibility exists, but only if those who assume leadership of the “Occupy” movement understand that, unlike the big banks, not all businesses are parasitic and in bed with the ringleaders of our incurably corrupt political system. Perhaps those rooting for a revival of honest capitalism should take as a hopeful sign the moment of silence observed for Steve Jobs last week by Wall Street protestors.

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  • mava October 12, 2011, 3:15 am

    I was rereading my post on why there will necessarily be a collapse and found it as unclear as it can ever be. Here is another try.

    You look at this beautiful country and think: “How can this be, that there is no way out? How can all this disappear, collapse, end? Is there no more production, saving, spirit, resources?”

    Of course, there is. Plenty of all that. That is not the problem. The problem that we are facing is that of comparison. What you are looking at is as beautiful as Titanic was, even with a hole along it’s side. You are looking at the marvelous efforts that it’s crew puts out in disbelief, asking yourself is there no more pumps, plugs, hoses, power, spirit, dedication?

    Wrong question, you see. It is a simple matter of comparison between how much water can be pumped out and stopped from leaking in, with how much water is getting in. That’s it. No poetry or tragedy here. If the gash is too big to tend to, then all hands job counts for nothing.

    The same is with our predicament. We of course have all that you see around you. But, we have a humongous gash in our economy – the government, and we have enormous amounts of icy water coming in – everything that the government does, and everything that it does not allow us to do. All that we count with a negative sign.

    If a miracle should happen and the government says tomorrow that it is dismantling itself , its waste and all it’s oppression, then, the gash closes, the water stops and our titanic could still be the flagship comparing to all other ships in the world.

    But the fact is, this is not going to happen. Not only the government is not willing to save this beautiful country, it is dead serious in inflicting even worse damage.

    So, this is what it is about. Simple comparison. This is how anyone can know that no matter how big and beautiful the Titanic is, give it enough cold water and it is going to sink. Pick any other analogy you might like better than mine. But the truth remains that any amount of anything can be destroyed by certain amount of anti-that-anything, the only question is how comparable those two, and never is about how big is that initial anything.

    Don’t look at all the positive things you see around, for that doesn’t matter. Look at all the negative things that the government is doing, and ask yourself if the government is even hypothetically imagining to stop hurting this country.

  • mava October 12, 2011, 2:55 am

    So, what are you waiting for? Get vaccinated and keep your immunity. I am all for it. In fact I strongly support your right to do so!

    But. I am not in your herd. So, would you be as nice to me as I am to you, and allow me likewise freedoms?

    You don’t understand me? Look. You have your opinion because of two things you happen to believe:

    1- The research showing all those things
    2-That all individuals MUST comply with what you want.

    I don’t believe in any of these two. No arguments. No putting down your scientific facts. I just do not care about government research, any single letter of it, and I also do not believe that everyone MUST follow what I believe. I want to give you freedom for freedom in exchange.

    May-be you should find a society that freely chooses to vaccinate? A vaccine village? Then you would have your herd immunity, and at the same time, you’d let me have my own way. How about that? Peace? No war?

    • DarkestKnight October 12, 2011, 3:15 am

      Oh I get it. I knew you would have a problem with the term ‘herd’. Makes you feel like cattle or something eh?
      Herd immunity means that getting vaccinated isn’t just about benefit to myself, but for the greater good of the community also. You know, not being selfish and thinking of others too. If it were only for your individual benefit I would certainly uphold your right to refuse. But unless you live by yourself on an island or some self-contained distant ranch, I have news for you- you ARE part of the herd.
      “Don’t believe in research” – just google smallpox-that’s all the research you need to do you ignoramus.

    • mava October 12, 2011, 3:21 am

      I probably am ignoramus. Someone very well known once said “I only know that I know nothing”.

      No, it didn’t offend me, the herd word. I was making the point that whatever you call it, let us call it the “amazing and beautiful commune”, – I am not part of it.

      Further, I reject whatever it is you call “the greater good”. I am sorry that my rejection of your plans for me can make your idea of my life less perfect. I never promised anything otherwise.

      I do not care about you. This sounds rude, but it is true. There is no promise of violence in this nor any threat at all. I just don’t. And all I ask, is that you stop caring about me, and allow me be the ignoramus that I am.

  • mava October 12, 2011, 2:09 am

    Vaccinations? Government has no right to do any vaccinations. These things belong to Nazi camps.

    Now, anyone who wants to be vaccinated, of course should and has all the freedoms to seek them, not from the government, but from private venues.

    You may want to be vaccinated, but I don’t. Look at the way the government uses this issue. No vaccination? – No school! Why? Vaccinated kids are not under any danger from those who are not vaccinates, because, well, – they are said to be protected from vaccines!

    We can see, that government tyrants believe that we do not own our body. In fact, the government feels that is has a right to inject us with their experimental chemistry to see what happens, while we, ourselves, do not have that same right to our own bodies. Drugs? Where does the government draws the power to control what we want to inject ourselves with?

    • DarkestKnight October 12, 2011, 2:32 am

      You are talking utter nonsense
      Sure, everyone has a right to refuse vaccination for their children, but this is not only doing them a disservice, but threatening the whole community. There is such a thing called herd immunity -high vaccination levels can lead to eradication of the disease eg smallpox, polio. Dropping vaccination rates eg when significant number of people refuse, can lead to re-emergence of the disease in the community due to loss of the ‘herd immunity’ effect. This has happened with measles after the scaremongering report by Wakefield et al in The Lancet caused a drop in the vaccination rates in UK in the late 1990’s (and later found to be grossly misleading, unscientific and was withdrawn). FYI Measles kills children.

  • DarkestKnight October 12, 2011, 1:30 am

    Carol – you may have a point re the Grand Conspiracy, but including vaccination in this ‘collusion’ is shameful. The improvement in our general health and longer lifespan over the last hundred years is due to 3 main factors- 1. Improved hygiene standards, 2. Improved nutrition, and 3. Vaccination.
    You ever heard of smallpox? Not pleasant.
    DK

  • gary leibowitz October 11, 2011, 10:51 pm

    You people are “over the top”. You would think we never went thru these conditions before. Capitalism and human nature have a perfect symbiotic relationship.

    There is and will always be pendulum swings back and forth, hitting apex and trough.

    The outcry against the “government” as if it is the enemy is ludicrous. When citizens become fat and complacent, greed and loose restrictions are a natural outcome.

    Do you realize that the reason we are where we are today is exactly because we encouraged them to happen. We didn’t just sit idly by while the govenments so called misdirection was happening. They didn’t hide or disguise it. In fact they flaunted it. Give the rich their just rewards by giving a 10 trillion tax break. Give the middle class their social welfare as a safety net for their retirement. Give help to the needy overseas. Give, give, give with no thought of the long term consequences.

    The hard part is to now dig our way out of this mess. Blame is an easy route; it relieves one of having to ponder the complex and complicit involvement we all had in this. Cut others benifits but not mine! How hard were we really fighting for a different America before say 9/11? We have a generation built on the notion of debt and credit. No one forced us to accept it. No government propaganda there.

    Blame is always the easy way out. It relieves one of blame and allows the full force of hostilities to be vented.

    We can of course blame the people that benefited the most from this, but you have to ask yourself had you been in the same position would you have done otherwise. Most likely you would be “capitalizing” on the situation for your own rewards.

    Relax. Demonstrations, a new awareness, a new government direction is all part of the boom/bust cycle.

    • mava October 12, 2011, 2:23 am

      No way out now. They have finally painted themselves into a corner. To recover this time, we would have to:

      – Abolish minimum wage
      – Legalize Insider Trading
      – Abolish Mortgage Tax Deductions
      – Disband all GSEs
      – Stop Printing Money
      – Allow all who made bad choice to go into bankruptcy
      – Abolish most government regulation
      – Stop taxation of Precious Metals
      – Stop all welfare, and foodstamps
      – Stop all racist (affirmative) actions
      – Allow opt-out from all government ponzi schemes
      (social security, unemployment insurance, etc.)
      – Sell enough government land and improvements to fund remaining existing obligations
      – etc. etc.

      There is no way this is going to happen.

      Logically speaking, you can of course steal income from a future generation, but not forever. At some point there is no more theft possible.

      You may believe we haven’t reached the point. I believe we just did. We can continue some more, but not in any way under the freedom and democracy. Under soviet style dictature, we could probably stretch this collapse for , oh, I don’t know, – 30 more years? Less than that?

      You can wring some water out of towel, and if you use vise, then you can wring some more out. But at some point the towel will turn to threads and break.

  • RashaMatt October 10, 2011, 11:26 pm

    The Occupy movement represents the culmination of the cultural divide that began in the sixties, but it’s not really a “left/right” political issue anymore; it’s much more fundamental than that. Whether you agree with his sentiment or not, Charles Eisenstein’s essay perfectly expresses the view of a vast and rapidly growing portion of the US (and world) population:

    “Occupy Wall Street has been criticized for its lack of clear demands, but how do we issue demands, when what we really want is nothing less than the more beautiful world our hearts tell us is possible? No demand is big enough. We could make lists of demands for new public policies: tax the wealthy, raise the minimum wage, protect the environment, end the wars, regulate the banks. While we know these are positive steps, they aren’t quite what motivated people to occupy Wall Street. What needs attention is something deeper: the power structures, ideologies, and institutions that prevented these steps from being taken years ago; indeed, that made these steps even necessary.

    “Our leaders are beholden to impersonal forces, such as that of money, that compel them to do what no sane human being would choose. Disconnected from the actual effects of their policies, they live in a world of insincerity and pretense. It is time to bring a countervailing force to bear, and not just a force but a call. Our message is, “Stop pretending. You know what to do. Start doing it.” Occupy Wall Street is about exposing the truth. We can trust its power. When a policeman pepper sprays helpless women, we don’t beat him up and scare him into not doing it again; we show the world. Much worse than pepper spray is being perpetrated on our planet in service of money. Let us allow nothing happening on earth to be hidden.”

    Full essay here: http://www.realitysandwich.com/occupy_wall_street_no_demand_big_enough

    • Larry D October 11, 2011, 12:34 am

      Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. Blesses are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake: Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven.

  • Steve W October 10, 2011, 9:25 pm

    What’s wrong with being vaccinated? It saved my life.

  • ex-Canadian Liberal October 10, 2011, 9:20 pm

    I am not a lost poor soul.

    If the OWS movement does not demonstrate against the Obama admin. it is a false movement.

    Can lefties not insult people and defecate on police cars? Tea Party never has.

    It was not the corporate world to bring in FICA and FUTA. It was govt. Govt encouraged corproations to move to India and China. Govt did not stop it. Govt is the enemy #1

    Your corporations would never have grown to their size without the secret support of govt yet the OWS people refuse to go after Obama.

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 9:50 pm

      I agree. If the OWS doesn’t make Barry’s corporate puppet act an issue, especially in light of his campaign promises and rhetoric, then they can’t lay claim to any legitimacy. Until they do that I will speculate that they are a manufactured counter-balance to the Tea Party.

  • ex-Canadian Liberal October 10, 2011, 7:19 pm

    Corporations did not allow the muslims to invade the west. Politcians did.

    They are the true enemies.

    the OWS is a demonic mob and a false movement. All they want are drugs, money, the latest ipod or sex and will be used by the Dems.

    Cain is right. Blame yourself for having a tattoe on your arms and legs and being fat and stupid, America.

    The corps did not force you to enter into a big mortgage. YOU DID IT TO YOURSELVES!!

    Now its time for Canada to get the easy pickings. Many canadians have bought properties in Fort Lauderdale from a broke American. Sad but true.

    No one forced me to take a vaccine against the flu!!

    • Carol October 10, 2011, 7:45 pm

      “No one forced me to take a vaccine against the flu!!”

      no but I bet they forced your parents to vaccinate you against a hundred other supposed diseases!!

    • DG October 11, 2011, 12:25 am

      I rarely agree with Carol

      I think Cain has shot himself in the foot, though, concerning OWS. With unemployment U6 pushing 20%, 50 million now on food stamps, suggesting that folks are simply lazy and jealous for their plight is incredibly naive.

      We have a broken economy that is dysfunctional and it has nothing to do with jealousy or desire for success. It is due to THTB creating a monopoly of the govt.

    • DG October 11, 2011, 12:26 am

      thtb=tptb

  • ex-Canadian Liberal October 10, 2011, 7:15 pm

    TO Carol

    Why cant I reply to you? I guess thats how the lefties are. rant scream yell but no talk backs.

    So why not go and demonstrate in front of the White House?

    I know why because that would deflect attention back to Obama.

    Corproations don’t force Americans to get fat and stupid and tattoe their arms and legs.

    Direct your anger towards Washington.

    • Carol October 10, 2011, 7:44 pm

      I have no idea why you can’t reply to me, only you would know that answer.

      I am not demonstrating anywhere so why would I go demonstrate in front of Obummers house?

      “Corproations don’t force Americans to get fat and stupid and tattoe their arms and legs.”

      Not all Americans are fat, stupid nor do they all have tattoes(sic). However corporations with collusion with gvment have forced all kinds of atrocities onto not only Americans but people the world over. You still do not see what I was trying to say to you, you are truly lost; poor soul.

    • Farmer Tom October 11, 2011, 5:56 am

      Carol, I hope you realize you are arguing with a troll who is just trying to get a little attention and raise some hackles. It is a waste of your time.

  • Seawolf October 10, 2011, 6:24 pm

    I Think that it is time to reread Eric Hoffer’s book “The True Believer”. A not overly long book on the origin and development of the mass movement. It is a bit dated in that it focuses on the Nazi and Communist parties but otherwise as relevant today as when it was written.

  • davidnrobyn October 10, 2011, 5:38 pm

    Readers of this site need to go over to the Daily Bell website and get their take on the OWS movement. At least to ponder it.

  • mava October 10, 2011, 5:11 pm

    I separated this from above because this is a case of misdirection of disapproval.

    Some people point at the bailouts and declare that the corporations are greedy.

    But wait a second. It were not the banks that wrote themselves fat checks. It was you, through your democracy, issuing an order to your “chosen” leader to bail out banks! You did not agree to bail them out?

    Too bad. I, them am in the same company with you! I did not for one second wanted to bail ANYONE out, but, unfortunately, in socialism you have no such choice. The majority, either through action or through inaction, wanted to part with their own money to bail out poor banksters, and I had no choice, no say in the matter, just like you.

    So, while this was wrong, it has nothing to do with banksters, and everything to do with the type of government system that we have, which does not allow opt-outs for those who disagree.

    Direct your blame where it belongs, – greedy democracy – , not the recipients of the government largesse, which if it were you, you would not reject either.

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 6:58 pm

      Mava, great contribution. Had I read further down the page I wouldn’t have responded to Gary’s comments.

  • mava October 10, 2011, 5:01 pm

    “Corporations are greedy”

    What does this even mean? Notice, how the presumed emotion is that what corporations are doing is somehow wrong. Let’s see.

    Corporations are compromise level communal properties. As any communal property, they must suffer from:
    1) Lack of meaningful feedback, since lower level employees are not purchasing anything from a higher level employees, and therefore voice their concerns in an untruthful way, i.e. not putting their money where their mouth is.
    2) The “Tragedy of commons”, – the situation where if something is equally accessible to two or more individuals not bound by personal ties, resulting in the first to realize this always taking the most that he can.
    3) Corollary to the above, the “Principal – Agent” problem, where the agent (CEO), is not interested in long term bottom line betterment, but rather in what he can take now.
    4) Shareholders are somewhat correctly tied in, because they can enter and exit at any time, however, due to the fact that taxation currently eats any and all “profits”, which are not really profits, but barely a compensation for lost purchasing power due to government theft (inflation of money supply), shareholders today are rarely in for “investment” and most universally are in only for speculation. This, makes their action counter-productive to the bottom line and actually places them in the same position as agents, i.e. CEO. Shareholders, in this setup, are too mostly interested in quick take, and not in anything that could be characterized as partnership or investment.

    So, what does this mean when you say that the corporations are greedy?
    -Do you speculate in the stock market by holding shares in any of your accounts, which includes your retirement? Then you are greedy.
    -Do you work for a corporation (a communal enterprise)? Then you are greedy.
    -Do you lead the communal enterprise as a CEO? – Then you are greedy.

    Now, what happens if you don’t do any of these? How is it that the corporation could possibly be greedy to you? You have a freedom not to buy from a corporation (well, “had a freedom” previously, until communist Barak Obama came to power), just as you have the power not to deal with anyone who is abusive in any way, be it your chosen plumber, or your bitchy wife, or your forever drunk husband. DO NOT ENTER ANY DEAL YOU DO NOT LIKE.

    You say, “yeah, right, where then will I get my things from”? I don’t know. No one is here on this earth with a pledge to provide for you. I, personally, do not like anything made by Apple, Inc. I don’t buy anything from them. They, therefore are not greedy to me. In fact, it is as if Apple didn’t even exist.

    What else can you possibly mean by saying that the corporations are greedy? That they do not provide you with a job at the pay level you want? How about yourself? Do you provide everyone with what they want at the pay level that they want, when you have enough money to do that? Do you, for instance, pay your plumber what he really wants to get paid? Oh yes you do have “all that cash” stored up! Remember the money you pay for the stupid, useless, dehumanizing TV programming? That is FAT, my friend, and you did not need to spend it. You could instead pay double to the plumber, and help American family, but you did not.

    Displaying exactly same greed as the corporations, you kept your plumber at the absolutely lowest possible base pay, at the level where he is barely making it, and paid not a dollar more. You greedily kept all that extra cash or credit you had at your disposal, so that you could spend it on ENTERTAINMENT, be it TV subscription, a new dumb gadget, or a trip to Las Vegas.

    How are you different than any of those you call Greedy?

    • warren October 10, 2011, 6:58 pm

      Here, Here……applause and adulation.
      A friend of mine is a small time investor and sometimes day trader. As he put it ” today I did some trading, I added nothing of value to the world, I have 500$ more in my acct. for a few key strokes, it’s all just numbers”

  • Michael Lewinski October 10, 2011, 4:54 pm

    OWS is the brainchild of the left and has been in the planning and formation phase since last year. Move on .Org, SEIU, and a whole host of socialist groups are working to bring together those who have noting to lose to ferment a revolution.

    I must take issue with Mava regarding the asseretion that the Tea Party has no idea what to do. I have been working in the Tea Party in Indiana for nearly three years and we do know where we are going and how to get there. It involves restoring the rule of law through the political process with an up-grade of constitutional conservatives in positions of authority. There are less then 12,000 elected officials in America.

    We seek to end croney capitalism and restore free markets for free people. Reign in or replace the Fed. Decentralize power through states rights and limiting the central government to its’ small government Constitutional role.

    Repeal the 13th, 16th, and 17th amendments and pass new amendments that clarify the orignial intent of the General Welfare clause and the Commerce clause. Deregulate the economy and constitutionally limit the percentage of GDP that can be taken through Federal taxation. This is where the Tea Party is moving.

    You don’t see us demonstrating a lot any more. We are to busy running for office and working to support those in the election process who support the systemic changes necessary to restore and preserve the Republic. If you think the Tea Party is a captive of the Republican establishment, ask Richard Lugar how that’s working out for him.

    One day you will have to decide which group you will support in the new American Revolution. Who will you stand with? Will it be with the Patriots seeking to recreate a society built upon individual accountability and the rule of law, or with those in the OWS movement advancing the Nanny State?

    • rmsimc October 10, 2011, 10:43 pm

      Fianlly…a clear-minded thought on this thread!

      I am starting to get the feeling that not many here at Rick’s fine watering hole have ever actually needed to make a payroll. I just got back from China (Qingdao) attending a world manuf. conf. and my foreign associates couldn’t believe it when I told them our corp tax rate for 2011 is an effective 41%. They were smirking as they mentioned paying 2-7%, depending on the country.

      Our company is trying to get several permits to expand (which would create another 1000+ jobs) but are getting stonewalled at every juncture. Its not the states, mind you, its the Feds. In one case, a particular state issued the permit only to have their state officials totally berated by the feds in mid-2009 and told to go back to school and get with the program. A six month expectation took three years. We had a quarter-billion of newly purchased equipment in storage for two years.

      I think the squatters at WS should move their sleeping bags to the true nexus of this lending mess…Chris Dodd and Barney Frank’s houses for starters…but, of course most people do not have the aptitude and/or impetus to research the true root cause of these failures. No, they’ll just keep blogging and typing at night and regurgitating what their college prof taught em…which, in-turn was merely a restatement of their own previous lesson plan. Its very sad.

      But…Like you said…Its time to pick a side! This has truly become simply that binary in nature.

  • Aussie Mick October 10, 2011, 4:48 pm

    America was built by and led by “boys with balls”….and since gaining Independance from Britain…those “balls” have been eroding away…from the inside. It is an inside job…a cancerous ‘pus’ …made up of the following ingredients…Rockerfeller..Bilderberg…Goldman Sachs..JP Morgan…the CFR..Trilateral Commission…the CIA…Rockerfeller’s fingerprints are all over the lot…follow the money trail…Big Pharma…Monsanto…follow the MONEY TRAIL…jail these criminals…start with Kissinger…Soros…follow the MONEY TRAIL…the Rothschilds…the World Bank…the IMF…they are using the American people to rape, rob and murder the rest of the world…FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL….

    • ex-Canadian Liberal October 10, 2011, 4:54 pm

      why are they criminals? they never forced me to buy a benz or a beamer or getup to my eyeballs in a big mortgage. Please explain

    • Carol October 10, 2011, 5:04 pm

      ex-canadian liberal “why are they criminals? they never forced me to buy a benz or a beamer or getup to my eyeballs in a big mortgage. Please explain”

      You are kidding right?

      Did these organizations collude with the governments to dumb down your kids through the educational system?

      Did big pharma collude with the governments of the world to force toxic vaccines onto you and your children?

      Did these big chemical/mining companies collude with the government to dump toxic waste (flouride from phosphate mining ) into your water supplies to dumb you and your kids down and make you more docile?

      Did big agri collude with the governments to put fake chemicals, dyes, preservatives, BHA, etc into your foods? did big money collude with the government to bail them out at the expense of the money existing and everyone savings?

      I could go on and on but I think maybe you should get the gist of your ignorant position.

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 6:53 pm

      Nice work Aussie Mick!

      Carol, for once, I find myself in near complete agreement with you!

    • Treasure Seekers October 10, 2011, 7:06 pm

      As men we should be ashamed of ourselves for letting it get this far. We now allow our women and children to be touched and fondled by government sickos. What have we become? Instead of ,Wall Street a better message would be beating government agents with lead pipes and when the press takes their side wait outside their building and work them over .

    • SD1 October 11, 2011, 4:31 am

      Should we complain about phosphates while forgetting about all the pollution gold, silver and copper mining cause?

  • Treasure Seekers October 10, 2011, 3:01 pm

    I see no advantage to protesting at all. Do ya’ll really think even 100s of thousands of people protesting will cause the powers that be to throw in the towel? Give me a break!!! The “Globalist” want us “dead” and we show up on , Wall Street with some signs while the police have guns and tear gas.
    Go ahead , fall into that trap and gather like herds of sheep in the cities and see what happens.

  • ex-Canadian Liberal October 10, 2011, 2:37 pm

    I am watching America go kentucky fried chicken.

    I fear the OWS far more than the tea party. Thus far, they seem like a bunch of bratty college kids encouraged by Pelosi and tacitly by Obama and aged leftists.

    Western govts are the sources of ALL of our problems.

    Corporations are full of pigs but so is govt full of lazy civil servants there for a salary and a pension which those bratty kids will have to finance.

    BoA never forced Americans to buy homes they could not afford. Never forced anyone to pay only the interest.
    Never forced anyone to buy a benz or a beamer.

    Americans are strange people. Spend half their time getting into debt and getting tattoos on their arms and spend the other half with debt counsellors.

    Time to go down America. But dont feel bad. Canada will arrive there too.

    Keep stackin the phyzz!!

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 6:52 pm

      Merely Pelosi and Obarry’s schtick.

      Schtick: presentation or sales pitch, from yiddish slang, implying phoniness or slickness, lack of substance with focus on style.

  • rico October 10, 2011, 2:26 pm

    Tax breaks to motivate small business to hire won’t do a thing to create jobs. I’m a small business owner. I’ll hire when I see demand for my services increase. The problem is not high tax rates (who likes to pay taxes anyway) the problem is ridiculously low artificial interest rates which are distorting markets and propping up zombie institutions. If rates weren’t held so artificially low for so long perhaps none of the stupid leverage we’ve seen recently would have been necessary. If rates reflected reality savers would have money to spend and re-invest and real market forces could work their magic.

  • Benjamin October 10, 2011, 1:04 pm

    Anyone who still thinks this is just a bunch bratty college kids is soooo last week. And perhaps it was never that way at all. This OWS movement seems to be a repeat of how the Tea Party was smeared and “guided” when it roared to life. Except this time the growing, angry mass of people are being tied to a lefist agenda by the mainstream media and establishment (both sides).

    Yet, two points cannot become polar opposites, which are the bank bailouts and the ongoing high unemployment. This surely hasn’t been lost on our rulers. If the OWS movement meets up with the Tea Party at the aforementioned equator, a force uncontrollable by the establishment could come into existence.

    That is why I now think the left has been quick to saturate this movement with a lot of _ridiculously_ lefist objectives. The right, for that reason, has been quick to smear it, even going so far as blamming the unemployed for their unemployment (as if the number of help wanted signs were causing a nationwide eyesore!).

    Of course, this is all just my speculation of the week. Maybe the OWS-ers really do like 0bama, Pelosi, and jack@sses like Michael Moore. But I ask you all… When hasn’t the primary objective been to keep people seperated? And how many were turned off by the Tea Party when certain people started to associate with it?

    • mikeck October 10, 2011, 1:42 pm

      Good points Ben,

      I, for one, quit associating with the Tea Party after I attended a gathering where most of the speeches were by Republicans and other Obama bashers. The OWS movement will likely go the same way but veer off in the opposite direction.

      As Rick points out, if they unite and in my opinion only if they unite and see the real enemy, the FED, will any good stand a chance of being a part of the final outcome.

  • Don October 10, 2011, 5:34 am

    John Jay your Carlin clip is a perfect description.
    If the demonstrators are ever educated on the real problem and pointed in the direction of the fed reserve then all hell will break loose.
    When they figure out printing is like adding water to a glass of Pepsi.
    Until that day the aroma becomes stronger by the day.

  • John Jay October 10, 2011, 4:27 am

    George Carlin explains it better in this three minute you tube cut than I could in a book. An oldie but a goodie.
    “Who really controls America”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 6:49 pm

      Yep, he sure did.

    • mario cavolo October 11, 2011, 4:36 pm

      thanks HUGE for posting that for everyone….perfect, Mario

  • John Jay October 10, 2011, 3:58 am

    In spite of any “I support the people” claptrap from Pelosi or any other DC criminal, the reason for the lack of “jobs” is simple. It has been the policy of every administration to export factories and jobs, and to bring in endless hordes of Work Visa immigrants to suppress wages and keep the workers powerless and increasingly broke. I believe the Work Visa program adds a million new immigrants a year. These facts are never addressed or even mentioned by any politician. They pretend it is all a mystery to them. Instead there is just endless chatter about which politician will create the most “jobs”. The answer is none of them will.
    It is government policy to destroy jobs and has been for decades. I think it is perfectly clear that the elite will never surrender any of the wealth, power, or privilege they enjoy short of Gaius Marius with an army at his back, and a proscription list in his hand. These OWS protesters lack a leader and a plan to unplug the old system. However, these protests are, at least, a start.
    They offer a glimmer of hope for real change.
    Most revolutions have numerous dead ends before they find the right leader and a good plan. But any plan that involves the current regime will change nothing.
    How many times does Lucy have to pull the football away at the last minute before Charlie Brown catches on? From LBJ’s “I will not send American boys to fight a war that is up to Asian boys to fight.” to all of Obama’s
    broken campaign promises. Lucy is going to keep yanking that football away until you stop playing with her.

    • gary leibowitz October 10, 2011, 4:19 am

      Why isn’t there demonstations on corporate america. Surely everyone know the record profits they have received over the last 3 years.

      Talk about phony claims of lack of hiring due to “undecided government policy or direction”. What BS. They know how to make record profits on the backs of over worked, underpaid employees.

      If anyone really wants to know why wall street is doing so well in such a tough economic environment its because of greed. They can get away with it with no outcry of ‘foul play’. What happened to GE’s zero tax agenda? No ban on their good? No demand they pay their share?

      Misdirection is the name of the game.

    • redwilldanaher October 10, 2011, 6:49 pm

      Misdirection is the name of the game Gary but it is your beloved centralized government that makes it all possible for the corporations that own it. Why are they making record profits? Free money, the standard fake corporate accounting that the government signs off on, the fact that they used the government to bail themselves out at our expense. Yes the corporations are the enemy but they are weaponized in the form of the federal government. Willing to remove arms from citizens but permit the corporations to remain locked and loaded? Doesn’t sound like a good plan to me.

  • gary leibowitz October 10, 2011, 3:42 am

    This generation is labled the “entitled” since everything is given to them by their parents. Not going to understand the true meaning of suffering and sacrifice since their universe has been so sheltered. It is going to take a lot more pain before ture meaningful demonstrations take place.

    Give it at least 1 more year of dramatic job change to strat the ball rolling.

  • mava October 10, 2011, 2:41 am

    I agree, they will become more and more an eyesore, as the time rolls forward. But, they will not bring any positive changes, just as the tea party won’t, and, for the same reasons.

    Both have no good idea of what to do. Both, essentially a “do something” parties. In time, they will be more and more socialist (“occupy” is actually already quite socialist).

    Both stem from the same base, an essentially consumerist, debtor mentality, with no principles nor knowledge, that has run up to the last blast door of their dumb, pitiful existence, and now is trying to “figure out” what to do.

    It is not very hard to forecast, what exactly will they “figure out”. Just as a juvenile first observing the planetary motion first “figures out” that the sun, obviously, spins around the earth, so will the dumb, “clearly see” that what needs to be done is a redistribution of the capital on the principles of “fairness”. Wait and see.

    I believe this is a good example of why we are doomed. In one sentence, we have allowed for several generations to grow up without having any true principles and true education, and most certainly, we shall pay the price.

    • cosmo October 10, 2011, 11:29 am

      While I am as cynical as anyone here, this #OWS is a step in the direction that needs to be taken. Obama talked his way into office with “Hope and Change” and many had high hopes(re: ending wars and fighting corp power) that were summarily smashed. How anyone can believe him anymore is beyond me, just as with GWB. Hence the rise of a group unaffiliated with ANY political party.

      The Occupation is truly grassroots and leaderless by design(unlike the Tea Party started by Koch Bros). Decisions by consensus, General Assembly discussions(Constitutional Conventions come to mind), and an awareness and strong resistance to co-option intentions. Not to mention inclusive, peaceful, and tolerant. With those marks it is difficult to say where it will lead, but I seriously doubt into the halls of Congress with political endorsements or delegates. It is the movement we on this forum have been hoping for, something, someone to stand up against corporate greed. People actually taking to the streets!! Apathy may finally be giving way.

      It will take a Critical Mass though to become a real force of change and any support towards that end will be necessary to move the Occupation forward. After all, are YOU part of the 1% or the 99%.