Faith and the Endless Debate

[The guest commentary below introduces James Tolard, an old and dear friend as well as an exceptionally talented commodity trader. Jim’s style is to surf the big trends, taking perhaps just two or three new positions over the course of a year. Appearing relaxed and effortless is his great gift, and this quality is there in spades whether he’s managing a large soybean position, driving a golf ball 300 yards or cooking coq au vin for a dozen dinner guests. Jim lives in a secluded village, but I’ve coaxed him out of semi-retirement to write occasionally on any subject he chooses.  In the essay below, well off the beaten path for Rick’s Picks readers, he ponders certain epistemological questions that will necessarily remain unanswered.  RA]

The idea of a 6,000-year-old earth is summoned time and again as if to prove that responsible adults do not hold elective office except as reactionaries.  We hear shrill voices trying to shout down superstition. And yes, I am all for this as long as the shouting is not by way of kangaroo courts, gulags, and surveillance.  But what is at issue? The Old Testament, or Torah, contains enough age references to the patriarchs to imply that the first man came into mortality, driven from the Garden of Eden, about six-thousand years ago. The Jewish calendar proceeds from this event and is currently at 5773. But the modern calendar, a Roman invention, didn’t come into being until what is now 42 A.D.

So, back to the question of the age of things. The principal arguments all miss thepoint, which is that the enemies of revealed knowledge refuse to tolerate a conflict with cosmology and geology.  Persons of faith, for their part, refuse to budge from their belief that the Scriptures contain revealed knowledge. It is an unalterable position. But it is the constant harping on details that annoys this old man, who just spilled hot coffee on his slppered feet. What is really at argument is not how old the earth is or should be; rather, it is whether God exists, and whether He created anything at all. For if He did, He must be either an evolutionist, so as to accommodate his very poor writing style in Genesis; or capable of so prodigious a feat as creating on a massive scale.

The Challenge of Faith

Naturally, the challenge of Faith is that one is left wondering how to believe in God, Angels, miracles, sainthood, the legitimacy of the Church, the authencity of the Word of God, and so on. Now, one has more than a few illustrations of the wickedness of men in preventing humankind from learning anything, such as the centrality of the sun in the solar system. (Galileo did not posit, know of, or imagine any cosmology other than this.) But in the end, it is about God, His nature, and whether He can do these things. It gets worse with the introduction of Satan, of suffering, of the Cross, the Resurrection, the lives of the saints, and the historical importance of Christianity and Judaism. No wonder it is easiest to merely overthrow all of this, and to call all persons of faith bigots. Even if one has faith, he is strenuously tasked with figuring out what to do with it, understanding it, and coping with so many people who over time have interpreted, misinterpreted, or reviled the whole project.

Because I am in a sour mood, and it is winter, I think I will side with the scientist, although in a moment of superstitious sentimentality, I will, as the Evangelicals would say, Go with God.  Nay, I won’t do that; rather, I will look at the black rain drip, languid and hopeless, from my barren elm, from my twisted and contorted grape arbor, and contemplate death, hell, and Judgment.

***

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  • cosmo December 12, 2012, 2:28 pm

    The Universe has always existed.

    “Love is God”. Not the other way around

    A ‘belief’ is false because it is something you were told or read somewhere. You don’t actually KNOW it as fact. You “know” what sugar tastes like and what a sunrise is.

    “Faith” is the absence of doubt. You don’t “know” what God is, however

    Karma is Real

    “Know Thyself” and”I know nothing”(Socrates) are the wisest words I have read

    ALL religions are pointed to the same place, communion with God, whatever God they might look to. As a Christian might find it strange to pray to Allah 5 times a day, a Muslim might find it strange to portray Jesus(God) on a cross.

    “Religion is the science of the mind” -Amma

    There are admirable habits and traits in ALL religion, but the most important to me are “Love thy Neighbor(which is everyone)” and “Peace is the Way to Happiness”

    It seems people make a joke out of 2012, but there are changes happening in the world in a positive way. People ARE waking up to the fact that the current system is unsustainable and that a major crisis is unavoidable on a worldwide basis. It is likely that there will be major casualties. However, once the crisis is passed, the people will have a choice, once again, to choose a path of peace and compassion(humility) or dominance and control(aggression). It doesn’t matter where you are in the world between now and then(post-crisis), you will be affected. Everyone will take a hit. What will matter most is on what side of the scale you will stand.

    Love, compassion, and peace (Selflessness)

    or

    Hatred, dominance, and revenge(Ego)

    The choice, as always, is yours alone.

    I choose Peace, always

    • Robert December 14, 2012, 5:20 am

      Awesome, Cos…..

  • Buster December 12, 2012, 8:46 am

    I like your willingness to reason & question these things,Chris. We are more likely to find the answers when we are neither a believer or a non-believer. Maybe the Scriptures are bunkum, maybe they’re to enslave us based on true events, maybe they’re about the being,Yahweh, who may be pretty flawed himself. I don’t profess to know, but that there is something intriguing going on I feel quite sure.
    The Hebrew word for ‘day’ in question was ‘Yom’, I believe, which means a period of time or event, & not necessarily a literal Earth day, as far as I can recall, so Genesis may well fit. But who are we to question the interpretations of both believers & non-believers, who feel a need to stick to their own strongly held view of things. I suspect that both sides are wrong.

  • mario cavolo December 12, 2012, 8:38 am

    Martin, you are the most dangerous person posting today.

    You actually think you know. Shredding your most recent position that you know is far too easy with overwhelming evidence exactly the opposite of what you state, that there is no evidence at all. Oh really? That there is something more than just the physical world and all the stuff human beings imagine which are just products of brain neurons. Try “Biology of Belief” by one of your biologist types who is stumped as to how it could possibly be that a human cell acts like an antennae to a source…um, what source? A physically, evident source, don’t be silly.

    You know. You have begun your own religion and you are God. Congrats, intelligent arrogance to the max…

  • Chris T. December 12, 2012, 2:36 am

    “…Abraham who was only tested in his obedience to Yahweh by the order to sacrifice his son Jacob….”

    Abraham’s obedience isalways held up as a positive thing, and nothing came of it anyway.

    Yet Abraham didn’t KNOW that God would step in, he had no reason to believe this would happen.
    So, is that obedience actually to be lauded, when it demands something considered to be about as unspeakable as there can be (murdering on command, and your own flesh and blood at that)?

    Disobedience should have been the outcome, and we should look aghast at this willingness….

    So much for the literalists.
    It is interesting that literalists really only exist in the faith that has as its sacred book the New Testament, with the Old Testament as preceding.

    Those that only believe in the Old Testament do not do this:
    The Talmud, in its various unwritten and written forms over the centuries, is the discussion amongst those considered the most learned as to the MEANING of what is written in the scripture itself, with disagreement over that meaning to be found ( in the learned disutations).

    So, at the very least, the simple fact of the Talmud’s existence, let alone its stature as “sacred” text, shows that interpretation is valid, if not necessary, and must be attempted.

    The literalists in the Christian camp on the other hand, (attempt to) take such commandments as they find (AND LIKE) in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc. as literal gospel, not permitting any interpretation.

    Even worse, they always ignore how much of the lord’s word in the New Testament actually contradicts what they think settled and clear, yet never answer that discrepancy.
    Even beginning lawyers know that a later law, if it contradicts an older one, supersedes, because the new law was made with full knowledge of the old.
    That goes here to.

    Take the example of the adulteress, who should be stoned according to scripture:
    jesus, without bluntly stating it thus, tells all that scripture is to be disregarded!
    Literalists don’t care…

    6000 years: How do we know that the length of the days and years that are referenced by that figure are the lengths and days we know today?

    Is God’s year defined so clearly? Never saw that.

  • Charlie December 11, 2012, 5:52 pm

    So many theories, so many opinions…In some ways this is what TPTB have always wanted us to argue about, so they can control us, because we spend most of our valuable energy arguing with one another…:(

    I’ll summarize my humble views:

    – Nothing based on Guilt, Fear & Shame (all popular religions) can be good for any soul

    – Evolution theory is a made up story. How can anyone explain going from Homo sapiens to a full blown civilizations such as the Sumerians? No real scientists would agree with this

    – Meditation is the most effective vehicle to embrace the fact that there is much more than we don’t know and/or understand and can only FEEL IT.

    – If you research history (REAL HISTORY), you will quickly see that christianity and evolution theory are both made up tale to bamboozle/enslave others.

    Of course you let fundamentalist know this and their ego wants to tear you apart, for they are too insecure to admit the mere possibility of their entire belief system being a scam to enslave them…lol…Though I’m not a fan of Ayn Rand, she did have a point when she stated religion is a mental disorder, entirely run by an insecure ego…

    – Finally, all I know is that I don’t KNOW anything…:)

    Here is quote that encompasses my thoughts on the matter:

    “Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.”

    Robert Anton Wilson

  • Beemer December 11, 2012, 5:45 pm

    Once again your rally target was wrong and surpassed like nearly every other number you present. Yeah, you hit a few and you let us know about it. It’s the broken clock theory.

    All technical analysis fails in a Fed juiced market. I can put a buy and stop anywhere and do what you do – then brag about it when I hit one. Then con people into believing this really works and line my pockets with seminars. Nicely done.

    &&&&&&

    For the record, Asshole: We went long Jan 128 DIA puts for 1.00, stop 0.70. RA

  • gary leibowitz December 11, 2012, 6:11 am

    Can a person living in the 3rd dimension visualize the fourth or fifth. Does that negate that scientific proof is out there? An infant can’t comprehend what his/her own mind does when becoming an adult. This is the argument you are left with.

    We are at an age where we know we don’t know many things. To extrapolate the existence of god is futile. We are but infants. Can anyone understand that a circle has no beginning or end? Just becuase we can’t grasp concepts doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    Faith, religion, science, and the environment we live in, all play a role in shaping our belief system. Since everyone has different experiences there is no common ground to discuss the validity of god. Leave the labels alone and work on the universal truths such as caring for one self, in body and spirit, and then learn to spread that to others. Hate, meanness, apathy, distrust are poisons we create in ourselves that prevent us from being content with ourselves and the world.

  • Grass Ranger December 11, 2012, 5:30 am

    Neat!

    Thanks, Rick

  • Northshore December 11, 2012, 4:17 am

    I just came across this interesting passage in a book by Dean Koontz:

    He did not see what worlds waited beyond this one, but he knew beyond all doubt that they existed, and the strangeness of them frightened him but also lifted his heart.

    He understood that eternal life was not an article of faith but a law of the universe as true as any law of physics. The universe is an efficient creation: matter becomes energy; energy becomes matter; one form of energy is converted into another form; the balance is forever changing, but the universe is a closed system from which no particle of matter or wave of energy is ever lost. Nature not only loathes waste but forbids it. The human mind and spirit, at their noblest, can transform the material world for the better; we can even transform the human condition, lifting ourselves from a state of primal fear, when we dwelled in caves and shuddered at the sight of the moon, to a position from which we can contemplate eternity and hope to understand the works of God. Light cannot change itself into stone by an act of will, and stone cannot build itself into temples. Only the human spirit can act with volition and consciously change itself; it is the only thing in all creation that is not entirely at the mercy of forces outside itself, and it is, therefore, the most powerful and valuable form of energy in the universe. For a time, the spirit may become flesh, but when that phase of its existence is at an end, it will be transformed into a disembodied spirit once more.

    Dean Koontz

  • Anthony F December 10, 2012, 11:41 pm

    I have some knowledge of geology, and as a mineral club
    youth education coordinator I make rocks-geology presentations to 4th graders.

    Following the information available in courses and books I was introducing this topic starting with the Big-Bang, evolution, stromatolites, dinosaurs, etc.
    Fortunately, a good friend introduced me to information
    available on Answers in Genesis, and I am currently reviewing theirs Geology DVDs
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/store/product/geology/?sku=40-1-329
    On the next presentation I have completely dropped the
    Big-Bang theory.
    One of the things that have impressed me the most is
    that there is no fossil record of any species evolving into
    a new specie. There is a record of duplication or loss of DNA sequencing within the species… this allows for
    some normal mutation, such as adaptation and survival of the fittest. Very nice modular, flexible design actually.
    The objections to a large scale evolution and geological record are just too numerous to mention in detail.
    Evolution as it is explained Today seems to be just plain
    fantasy.
    However, it has taken a heavy tall… Hitler and Stalin
    exterminated millions of people because they consider them “inferior” on the evolution scale.
    Nowadays, christian students start abandoning or questioning their faith after the first year in college (70% ?)
    To this you have to add the “Last child in the woods”
    problem, where children are nowadays acquiring a Nature deficits disorder.
    http://www.amazon.com/Last-Child-Woods-Children-Nature-Deficit/dp/156512605X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355175411&sr=8-1&keywords=last+child+in+the+woods

    Well some of us are trying to get things straight !
    Anthony

    • Benjamin December 11, 2012, 6:14 pm

      Anthony,

      Re: “Last Child in the Woods”

      O/T as it is, this is worthy of discussion (and not all that O/T, as we’ll see).

      I tell ya, as someone who grew up in the 80s, this sterilization (for lack of a better word), is only a very recent phenomenon. Back in my day, while the counsels, computers, TVs, and other electronic devices were very much a part of the typical youngsters existence, they were not dominant like they are today. Back then, we got out. In fact, I was not the only one that often had to fight with my parents in order to go play outside (and seriously object to being yelled at far wandering far).

      Back then, being “grounded” really, truly sucked!

      I believe what changed things wasn’t so much the electronics as it was the undue focus put on them. Not long after my childhood ended, that was all anyone talked about as a future (which, of course, the Asians would beat us at if we didn’t beat them at it first!). So people just started shoving the devices into their kids’ hands, because it was said that an early start in familiarity with them would somehow give them “an edge” later in life.

      Well, earlier, I said in another post…

      “[…] I know that erradicating faith and religion is a fool’s errand. A fool’s errand for a fool’s paradise. One undertaking such a task is bound to waste more time and cause more harm than they would by simply living and let live.”

      The things we’re talking about — children and nature — are just different names for the same point; we can’t fight nature and expect to win. The “electronics-izing” of kids is, sadly, just another example of what happens when people allow themselves to get carried away.

    • martin schnell December 12, 2012, 1:11 am

      WOW!!!!

      That is satire, right? Or else america really does need more help than even god can give it.

    • Buster December 12, 2012, 9:04 am

      I am inclined to agree with you here Anthony. Evolution really does seem to be a flawed theory according to the records. Adaptation, yes, but evolution, no. On these grounds an external input looks likely. For me the theory that everything is chance is trumped by creationism quite easily. But there are some inconveniences to look at too. The records apparently show non human species, some more intelligent even, going back millions of years.
      That these could fit in with the Nephelim story does not detract from the problem of the time scale not doing so.

  • nonplused December 10, 2012, 8:47 pm

    This subject doesn’t seem to offer any tradable information or thoughts. However it is an excellent study in the human mind. And no, I do not mean the article itself offers any insights, but that by looking at the article we can get some insights as to the human condition.

    The first thing that strikes me is that the author, apparently without realizing it, seem to think the conclusions he draws in his own mind are above facts based on reality. Therefore he can hold a 6000 year old earth as self evident based on one book written 3000 years ago when all of the evidence gathered from every field of science comes to the conclusion that the world is in fact very, very old, likely in the billions of years.

    I’ve seen the geological and paleontological evidence myself. The fossils are there. The oil & gas really does come from enormous shale deposits. The shale was deposited at the bottom of an ocean and then buried by a mile or more of sediment. In some locations, corral had time to grow hundreds of feet think yet hundreds of feet above those earlier shale deposits. The fossil record is also very convincing. You can question the mechanism by which creatures come to be, but it is incontrovertible that many, many forms of life have existed on this rock for which there are no modern counterparts remaining. Then there are the heavens, which we can see with a telescope, which of course the writers of the bible obviously did not have access to.

    But anyway, enough facts, I am not going to convince anyone. The fact is, as shown by this article, faith trumps reason every time. It is the nature of mankind to believe based on social custom, parenting, and other forms of childhood instruction, and the beliefs instilled are not available for later reconciliation to the facts.

    Also, we get these beliefs primarily from our parents and teachers, religious or otherwise. This is why fundamentalist religions make such a big deal about excluding certain scientific facts and theory from the classroom. Instead they come up with theories about children riding t-rexes like we ride horses. It’s the stuff of childhood imagination, but they have no other recourse.

    Of course, the other alternative, which is to assume the bible was not meant to be a scientific expose, is also possible. If fact, that is line that the Catholic Church has adopted. And they should know, they compiled it.

    Statistically, what you believe is almost 100% determined as a matter of birth accident. If your parents are Muslim, you’ll be Muslim. If they are Hindu, you’ll be Hindu. Almost nobody converts. But yet each of us labors under the assumption that our own particular group of beliefs is “correct”, and others are “wrong”. The possibility that they can all be “correct” or “wrong” is not mentally reconcilable for most. Their own beliefs must be the correct ones.

    It’s Narcissism through and through, and shows insight into the deep narcissistic tendencies we are all born with and fight to overcome as we mature. Definitely a decent survival instinct suitable to hunter-gatherers, but not appropriate in the modern era where so much of what we need to survive, from oil and gas extraction to modern agriculture, depends on science. Science cannot be found in the mind, but comes from observation of reality.

    It is a very difficult thing for most people to come to terms with: They are operating based on incomplete knowledge. We all are. It is not possible to have complete knowledge. But it doesn’t “feel” like our knowledge is incomplete, so we operate as if what we think and feel is much more certain than it is. In fact nobody knows whether there is a God, nor the mysteries of his mind when he created the universe. My personal feeling is that to speculate in such matters is somewhat a waste of time until you first admit that you cannot possibly know the answers in any detail.

  • Robert December 10, 2012, 8:29 pm

    Religion is extraneous.

    Faith is simply the understanding that everything holds omnipotence over anything.

    (Please put some thought into the limitless dimensions that the preceding statement holds domain over)

    Belief, and a basic understanding of harmony, cover all the bases necessary to solidify faith.

    As for you- (“you” being each one of you in the individual):

    You are accountable to no one (in particular)- you are accountable to everyone (in aggregate). Find the spirit that this philosophy exposes to you, and you will begin to understand the nature of endlessness; whether physical endlessness, as defined by the nature of the Universe, or spiritual endlessness, as defined by the nature of the living consciousness (and contentiousness) that reality endowed you with….

    cogito, ergo sum.

    The gift of spirit, and of thoughtful contemplation, had a primary recipient (or recipients) from the genus Homo at some point in the past. (where, who, or when is fundamentally irrelevent- our self awareness arose within SOMEONE, at some point in the past- this is self evident by the fact that we are having this discussion)

    The grantor of said gift can go by any name we choose- and there is no Universal law that requires us to identify this gift-giver by a common name.

    Nature, God, the Singularity- call it what you will, but the point of view of the grantor can only be expressed as:

    “You think, therefore you are… but you think ONLY because I showed you how.”

    To believe otherwise it to believe that the common discovery of our individually infallible (and impending) mortality was happenstance.

    Human intelligence may be little more than the natural process that the Universe uses to discover its own being- its own boundries, its own origins, its own “lifestyle”… and ultimately- its own eventual demise.

    As goes humanity- perhaps so goes the Universe. after all- Quantum Mechanics has taught us (via exercises like the Double Slit experiment) that reality’s being is dictated (if not influenced) by direct observation.

    If you understand Quantum Mechanics, then you can not escape the logic trap that dictates that some “one” observed the Universe into being. Otherwise we wouldn’t be here to keep observing a constantly new and changing reality with every moment since…

    I am grateful for the gift, and I’ve felt the expression of love from the giver… that’s all I’ve ever needed.

    I hate to make what sounds like a shameless plug- but I encourage anyone who likes (or dislikes) what they read above to visit my little slice of the Interweb-pie (click my name above) and peruse some of my own myriad of silly attempts to try and make reality appeal to common sense…

    • Benjamin December 11, 2012, 5:03 pm

      Ah, I was wondering when you would come along and say something, Robert. Things juuust wouldn’t be complete around here, otherwise!

      That said, I read your post forwards and backwards, twice each. I was still lost. So I took a snapshot of the screen, opened the paint program, and tried looking at it from various 90-degree angles, horizontal and vertical flips… Nothing clicked. I even loaded it into blender and did a full 3-D rotational scan of the entire post.

      Z’all Greek to me.

      “Cogito, ergo sum.”

      Well, Latin anyway! 🙂

    • BDTR December 12, 2012, 1:35 pm

      Enjoyed your blog, Robert. A good expressive example of an inquiring mind which, irrespective of humor in conclusions, distinguishes an array of pertinent considerations.

      Would only suggest one other to mull, …being the quirky behavior of particles influenced by observation which apparently conform their behavior to contextual expectation.

      What interests me in this, in part beyond a certain, broad and mind blowing novelty, is how it relates to the transcendent quality of conscious creativity and how fluid perception becomes when norms are dynamically negated.

      Since creation itself is ascribable to a presumably all conscious and all powerful universal force in the context of the infinite, that the infinite considered in its formlessness is entropy defined in perfect chaos, and that subjective awareness observably influences perception of elemental force in, if you will, extra-dimensional environments, how can we now in light of that repetitive observation rationally conclude that Lloyd Blankfein isn’t actually doing God’s work in abetting the levering of subjective value back to infinity of original state?

      Seems thermodynamically reversion consistent, macroscopically speaking, of course, ay? (Particularly in a overheated bond universe:)

      It further begs the question of whether God would thrive in federal detention? Just wondering.

    • Robert December 12, 2012, 3:27 pm

      “It further begs the question of whether God would thrive in federal detention?”

      This question reminds me of the movie “Dogma”, where God decides to go for a walk on the Jersey Boardwalk, and gets trapped in the body of a homeless man who goes into a coma…

      Blankfein is absolutely doing God’s work, so long as you understand that evil is nothing more than Lucifer’s hubris taken to its irrational end…

      We are told to believe that all evil wilts in the face of love, and yet we are simultaneously trained to understand that evil is to be feared, and to be fought.

      I humbly submit that Lloyd Blankfein is not to be feared. He is merely to be understood. Once understood, his actions become more clear, and his purpose becomes more apparent….

      Benjamin- spend some time looking out into a deep forest, and try answering the question “Why does love exist, when nature seems so cold and heartless?”

      In the exploration of that question, you will find the understanding of reason.

      Some things don’t have to be logical, they only need to be reasonable. After all, it is not a binary Universe (as BDTR so eloquently summarizes above)

  • Rod December 10, 2012, 7:09 pm

    If you are a numbers guy and if you are into stocks and predicting trends, lets look at the probability that a complex life form that has the ability to grow from a joining of two seeds, share the code from each seed and replicate an image of the parents grow to be , loving, creative, adaptive and selfaware of itself. Now what are the odds that this happened by accident? Imagine a monkey typing at a typewriter random letters and creating a novel like War and Peace. Then contemplate the vastness of the universe. The law of cause and effect state that the effect of event can’t be greater than its cause. Scientist are now finding that for all the galaxies to be as equally spaced they would have to been either created much longer than previous evidence suggests or they were created at the same time. The point is it takes more faith to believe it was all an accident than to believe their is a creator. Who loves you! Don’t be fooled. The fool hath said in his heart there is no God. Love your blog.

    • martin schnell December 11, 2012, 2:22 pm

      The evidence is against you.

    • Carol December 11, 2012, 4:15 pm

      Right Martin

      Further Rod if we can’t just beleive the universe sprung into existence by itself without a “creator” then how are we to understand and accept that the CREATOR just sprung into existence without his creator!!

      ya where does it stop?

    • mario cavolo December 12, 2012, 8:46 am

      Martin you are assertion that the evidence is against you and shows evolution to have lots of evidence is patently incorrect and absurd and not the case. To say it is easy to shred holes for example in Richard Dawson’s latest pile of garbage entitled The Greatest Show On Earth, I believe, good grief man, its been shredded, or is that something you don’t know which is apparently impossible since in talking with the likes of you we are talking with people who actually do know the mystery of life’s existence, hadn’t met one before today!

      Cheers, Mario

  • Benjamin December 10, 2012, 6:55 pm

    This feels more like a Friday article than a Monday one. Am I the only one who thinks so?

    Anyway, after pondering the article and my response, all I can say is that knowing something doesn’t explain very much at all.

    I don’t care what anyone else would say (and have said). I _know_ there is an afterlife, from a couple of experiences I was fortunate to have had in my ongoing lifetime. Those experiences, however, don’t answer any other questions. And they might turn out to be misfortunate experiences, when all is said and done. Anyway, for all I know, the soul remains behind for a short time before permantly winking out, like the smoke from an extinguished candle. Then again, maybe it’s possible to move on to the next life or one’s “eternal” reward/damnation (but, not being equal to or greater than God or Satan, I strongly doubt anyone of this earth can stay in their respective abodes, forever).

    So how would knowing God’s/Satan’s existence change anything for you? How would knowing the truth about existence change anything? How does knowing the age of them thar hills change anything? Right! So why ponder it?

    And yet… I do just that from time to time (more often, of late). What, yall thought I WASN’T human or something?! 🙂

    • martin schnell December 11, 2012, 2:27 pm

      I doubt it. As we understand more about how the brain works we will see that illusions of afterlife are just the dying images of a brain shutting down. It is nice to think there is an afterlife (what a great way to control the poor – things will get better if you behave here), but it really is just wishful thinking backed up by zero evidence, and defying logic. This is it. This is all there is. Love every day, every minute.

    • Benjamin December 11, 2012, 4:47 pm

      For a person who earlier stated that he keeps an open mind, you sure do have your mind made up.

      And, for a reasonable and intelligent person, you sure do seem to have a problem with reading and comprehension. Where did I say anything about the afterlife being a comfort, or that I let the existence of the afterlife rob me of any part of life? Nowhere. Everything I said was the exact opposite of your critique (assuming we’re both using the same version of the English language). Yet, _I’m_ the one with a primitive brain that hallucinates.

      You’re enough living, breathing irony to give anyone iron poisoning…

    • martin schnell December 12, 2012, 1:07 am

      Basic logic my man.

      If you claim something exists, you need to provide verifiable evidence, or else it is just a guess, a hunch, a feeling … and not in any way a fact NOR even a theory in scientific terms.

      As for reading comprehension where did I say anything about YOUR saying anything about the afterlife being a comfort, or that I let the existence of the afterlife rob me of any part of life? I didn’t. It was clearly a general statement.

    • Benjamin December 12, 2012, 3:24 am

      martin,

      First, I ain’t your man. Second, the only reason I’m responding is because I’m so amused that a smart proggie like you still hasn’t grasped the point of my OP, which was saying another way what the article’s author said. ie, Nothing conclusive. The afterlife statement you want to so much harp on wasn’t anything more than a means to that “end”. The smiley face at posts end was a dead give-away.

      But if that won’t sink in, and you want to be a smartypants in lecturing me about logic and burden of proof… Well, that was over 25 years ago. It lasted less than five seconds and occured without invitation or expectation. Naturally, hard evidence of that occurance doesn’t exist. If you want evidence on this aspect of existence, you’ll either have to go out and find it yourself, or wait for it to come to you (as it did with me). Logically, there ain’t no other way to accquire it.

      And, finally, not every meaning is apparent in the words alone. Your “generality”, being posted in response to something I wrote, in the place where I wrote it, means it was indeed directed at what I wrote and, by extension, me. Why else say it? (rhetorical question)

    • mario cavolo December 12, 2012, 8:53 am

      Hi Ben, I suggest Martin is “taking a position”, since it is obvious that he doesn’t really “know” what he states he “knows”. He neither knows nor believes what he is saying because he’s either upset about something that has happened to him in this life that is inexplicable and therefore must be explained in some way…or he in his position is no different than any other person who has taken a belief so deeply as to make it a known fact, as opposed to….ahhhhhhh….allowing oneself to say “hmm, that can’t be explained scientifically, yet it is there, yet it does happen and has happened many times over the past ten thousand years, hmm, fascinating, mysterious. It works but I can’t measure it with equipment, hmm?”

      Cheers, Mario

  • DG December 10, 2012, 6:05 pm

    The fact is that there is little we know and we are a lot less smart than we think.

    I discussed this topic a year or so ago with a friend. “So you are telling me that the evangelicals are crazy?”, I said. Their theory of creation, 6 thousand years total earth age, is nuts and the idea that through the course of millions of years (which no one witnessed) we have evolved from some amoeba, then cross bred ourselves from primates, and voila, here we are! – is not nuts? And that theory is based on data that we have collected in the last couple of hundred years, most in the last 20?” That’s not nuts? Seems like a pretty big stretch. I get evolution, mutations, natural selection. Makes sense. So does the nature of free markets being monopolized and morphing into state-controlled markets…that is not evolution…more like entropy?

    I get the logic. I just think it is pretty arrogant to state anything other than “I have no idea, however, there are a couple of theories.” I think both theories have lots of holes.
    The problem with morphing unprovable theories into “fact” is that they will begin to screw up your current logic as your current logic will assume that your unprovable theories are now considered known constant facts, which they are not.

    Kinda like Big Ben’s theory that if they just spent more debt in the 30’s the depression would have been far less damaging. This is silly hyperbole. No way of knowing this unless you did it as the environment is way too dynamic. So far, Ben’s attempt at applying his theory is a failure. I see where food stamp usage hit a new high this week. The number of workers in the workforce hit the basement and dug a new level lower…sigh….and the only way to solve the mess is to tax more….huh? And less disposable income will do what?

    We know what happened in Iceland. They already sank their putt. Maybe we should follow them. Their experience is not theory, not hyperbole, but known fact. But that would require prosecuting fraud and returning monies stolen through the fraud and unfortunately, those criminals are in charge of the US and will never prosecute themselves.
    Speaking of criminals in charge, I see where the Chief Architect of Obamacare is now heading up government affairs for Johnson and Johnson. Prior to writing her future employers corporate gameplan, while being paid by the very people she would later screw, she had worked for Bluecross, then helped write W’s Drug bill (only a $21.25 trillion unfunded liability now) – think about that. If the taxpayer now has a $21.25 trillion liability, who has the asset? The govt? Big pharma, maybe??? Who is J and J?

    “The most transparent administration ever”

    Corruption bin berry berry good to me

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-07/meet-liz-fowler-architect-obamacare-jumps-ship-johnson-johnson
    ++++warning projectile vomiting may ensue!+++
    freakin’ joke.
    Again, its the theories vs the facts folks. Obamacare lowering health expense is a theory. What you know is that the people that wrote it worked for the insurance companies, the hospitals, and the drug companies….and as they leave government they will take their cushy jobs for the real beneficiaries. Billy Tauzin style! Watch and hopefully learn. Insurance premiums have risen 13% since the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” was written. That’s fact.
    It is a cesspool of corruption.

    Heck, you know its bad when Putin compares Obama to Stalin and Lenin. ouch: http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/19-11-2012/122849-obama_soviet_mistake-0/
    y’all may want to brush off your history books and study Stalin and Lenin, the gulags and genocide in particular, before you get too giddy about abolishing the 2nd amendment, as it seems that those in charge, are eager to do…wonder why. Probably interested in making you “safer”, like they are making healthcare “affordable” and protecting patients.
    which reminds me of an absolutely awesome documentary “Worse than War” – should be mandatory viewing before voting.
    Genocide has killed more people than war. http://www.attacreport.com/ar_diagrams/genocide.php

    redistribution and communism is fun!

    sorry. rant off.

    • Erin December 11, 2012, 9:23 am

      A++…
      Maybe he really is God and he is here to help us…WAKE THE F-UP BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!

      I am one of Gods helpers on the inside and I can honestly say that hope does not spring eternal inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is all around us and this is not a drill.

      Twenty seven years working under big brother and most of us have a hopelessness that you cannot imagine. There is no more working together on the inside, it has become tyranny.

      If I could give anyone who really cares about their future in a free society one piece of advice, it would be too hug your children and sit down with your bible of choice and prey this ends soon. If we don’t band together right now and GO over the cliff, there will be no turning back. We need to cut the blood flow off right now to the beast growing inside us.

    • martin schnell December 11, 2012, 2:21 pm

      Really?
      Competing theories???
      Get real. A theory in scientific terms is different than a theory in everyday english terms.
      Evolution is a theory that has stood assault after assault and survived. It may yet fail, but there is NO doubt that it is the best explanation we have for how we got here.
      Creationism does’t even qualify as a theory as it can be destroyed in about 2 minutes. Remember a theory in scientific terms must be able to withstand attack after attack over time. Most 12 year olds could destroy creationism before breakfast.
      Or put another way – the evangelicals are as crazy as the folks that believe in a flat earth and Santa Claus. I have no problem with them believing what they want, I would just prefer they were not in charge of anything important because I don’t trust their ability to discern fact form fiction.

  • mario cavolo December 10, 2012, 5:23 pm

    Hi Martin, I feel strongly that someone who does not believe in divinity has a major problem with reality. I can not imagine how the mysteris of reality can be explained in the absence of divine intervention, a non-physical power that is somehow involved. And in that respect the last thing I need to hear as a response is anything that has to do with Darwin and Richard ‘militant atheist’ Dawson, a buffoon who leaves more holes in his intellectual spouting than swiss cheese…

    Please note I didn’t say anything about a particular religion or set of rules, just the very existence of divine presence and intervention, what I will say is the inexplicable grace of God, but again…in the end I am Aquinan which is a grea place to be for any spiritualist; I do not actually know nor will I ever be guilty of arrogance trying to annoy other people with making them try to to know or believe what they don’t….how annoying!

    I hope, I pray, it is good to be humble, I have faith, I have known his grace, I dont know….ahh nice.

    Cheers, Mario

    • Carol December 10, 2012, 5:28 pm

      Mario

      You are falling for the “divide and conquer” line of thinking. Maybe the “truth” is not either creation v. evolution. Maybe there is a third, or even fifth choice. Just because one does not believe in one “choice” does not mean they must or even probably beleive in the other one.

    • BDTR December 10, 2012, 6:51 pm

      Well, you know, Mario, that many regard atheism as religion insofar as it claims belief in the non-existence of God. One can cite arguments of evidence either way, but belief is always and exclusively subjective, so its value is inherently limited to what may be actual.

      Our perception of reality is entirely conditional and apparently meaningless beyond what we individually choose to vest in its importance. There’s no evidence that I’m aware of that remotely suggests meaning or purpose to our lives outside a minutia of time and space.

      Sure, it’s comforting from fears of singular mortality and pointless existence to prop up a concept of an all wise and beneficient creator, but the overwhelming evidence suggests that the universe is utterly indifferent. A blank slate of expressed energy, and nothing more than infinite, random occurrence.

      Until one allows for that prospect and all that it implies, one cannot truly assume responsibility for what one does and why one does it.

      Grace, as it were, may just be conscious existence itself that allows its own reflection in myriad interpretations.

    • mario cavolo December 11, 2012, 5:13 am

      Hi BDTR, couple of ideas to explore….

      “There’s no evidence that I’m aware of that remotely suggests meaning or purpose to our lives outside a minutia of time and space.”

      “but the overwhelming evidence suggests that the universe is utterly indifferent. A blank slate of expressed energy, and nothing more than infinite, random occurrence.”

      These two core ideas are where I feel forced to say no no, that’s not true and sort through the whys. There is the opposite of what is stated above, there is overwhelming evidence throughout history of divine intervention, of the force and impact of a power greater than what is visible, call it as you like….religions have identified it to a specific entity and dogma, other ways it can be expressed; infinite intelligence, soul, infinite spirit, collective unconscious, superconscious, fate, destiny, a higher purpose, blah, blah….et al.

      To say that what I speak of, its “not” even there? That’s the single most ludicrous thought of all, its presence can’t even be thought in anyway to somehow not exist or be separate from the very thing it is part of.

      The first statement above…our very existence on one signal life-supporting planet in its minutiae of space and time, that alone speaks volumes of a particular purpose and consciousness. The SETI project is my favorite thing to hammer on, has wasted tens of millions of dollars, they even got an award for their effort and vision, all of which added up to a big fat nothing; they have found nothing else in the universe yet yelling back at us in anway shape or form “Hey earthlings thanks for calling…” That is despite connecting together the superpower of a series of the world’s largest dish telescopes all around the world, and still, they find nada, zip…

      Second point: well you know what I am considering regarding the idea that what happens is nothing more than infinite, random occurence. Ah ah, to ask relative to a currently trendy thing: The Law of Attraction “doesn’t” exist? Impossible, there are universal laws of vibration and attraction, harmony and disharmony, in obvious evidence in and through daily reality…

      Suggest you might enjoy Napoleon Hill’s Think and Grow Rich which does a great secular job of describing the unseen forces as it relates to achieving things in life…

      All above just wonderings with concern, sans arrogance.

      Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo December 11, 2012, 5:23 am

      Hi Carol (thanks very much in previous post for your further thoughts on the taxation topic)

      …You’re right, I’m trying to push my mind and senses to thinking beyond creation vs. evolution. What I come up with is more along the lines of the Dean Koontz writing below…the very inseparable nature of the invisible being somehow part of the visible, sans man-made dogma. In the Catholic church, it seems the Jesuits are the ones pushing the envelope of explanation regarding the mystery of life; they actively look into all the philosophies and mysticisms of history as they attempt to relate them to the church’s history and dogma.

      With that said, I don’t let dogma force me to follow nonsensical rituals that have little to do with the original core faith. Yet I also must then not reject them either as other people do practice them, whatever religion or practice they may be.

      I was just reading that in the Roman days, the read the “augurs”. Nuts! Know what that is? Its the squiggly shape of the animals intestines, they somehow decide that MEANT something and followed it for divine direction guidance. Good grief, that was happening post-birth of Christianity!! so I am sure Jesus was saying to himself, “Oh yea don’t forget to check those animal intestines so that you guys do a good job of managing the empire.”

    • ray kayal December 11, 2012, 1:37 pm

      Mario, question for you….if you believe in divine intervention, and you do, you must believe in the sovereignity of God. Therefore your response to me about having his Word being put together by secular leaders is wacky, sorry.
      Ray

    • martin schnell December 11, 2012, 2:12 pm

      Ultimately I don’t really care what anyone believes … but if they want to be a leader I would prefer to have someone who is rational enough to see that all current religions are simply man made inventions. I don’t appreciate those that claim to talk to god or always ask god to bless their country … sheer delusion.

      Ultimately for me it comes down to two practical questions for our existence here 9and avoids the question of whether or not there is a supreme being):
      1. Is there any form of existence after this life?
      2. Does any supreme being interfere in our daily existence?
      Most religions claim yes and yes – but with zero evidence and zero logic.

      Evolution shows that for there to be any life after death it must have somehow evolved along the way … a nice trick, but likely impossible, as it would imply that each cell has a life after death. Of course we do in a form have life after death as our pieces do continue on as part of the universe, even as we cease to exist.

      As for divine intervention (say as an answer to a prayer) … there has never been any evidence (double blind studies have been done), and in fact there is from a scientific perspectives no need for divine intervention. The math of the universe shows that things can unfold very well (from the big bang) without intervention once the initial settings have been set (either randomly or through some initial intervention). Simply put daily divine intervention solely in the life of modern humans makes no sense in a universe of trillions of stars and likely planets and likely life.

      So then with no after life and no daily intervention, man is left alone on a planet shared with other life forms to do as he/she does. In much the same way as a spaceship (from sci-fi books) travelling through space organizes its existence, so too we as a species need a broader perspective that sees earth as a spaceship flying through space with limited resources but amazing possibilities … and because we are alone, it is our responsibility to make sensible decisions … no one is going to magically bail us out.

      And that ultimately is the differentiation between a religious and a secular lifestyle. The realization that we are responsible for ourselves – there is no man in the sky watching, there is no next life … it is just here and now, just us.

    • BDTR December 11, 2012, 7:03 pm

      Thoughtful reply, Mario, I’ll consider.

      Cheers 2u2

    • mario December 12, 2012, 2:20 am

      Hi Ray, agreed wholeheartedly and disturbing. Call it wacky, right or wrong, from 500 to 1500 the early church was directly linked to and part of the political leadership govt which ran the empire of the western world. They were one and the same, leaders would actually choose to get publicly baptized and issue an edict all citizens to do so even by force or persecution, nasty stuff. Evenen our respected St Augustine persuaded the Roman govt to use force against the Donatists. Yet, these are’ man’s failings and God is sovereign over all, giving him quite the task of cleaning up after us?

  • Carol December 10, 2012, 5:04 pm

    I am a skeptic myself. I have tried very hard to understand “believers” beliefs to see what may or may not be the truth. What I have come to “beleive” is that there may or may not be a god who may or may not have created this universe and mankind.

    But one thing I feel pretty certain about is that the god of the old testament could NOT have created the universe and mankind. He is too spiteful, revengeful, hateful, jealous, conniving, showing favoritism to one group of men over another to have had the love and grace to have “created” all of mankind “in his image”.

    I mean really, a god who could and would create man and would lay the law that man is not to murder would turn around and ask one of his “most favorite” men to murder his own son?

    Ya but then in the new testament god changes his whole persona, he is no longer a vengeful god or a blood lust because now he has sent his only son to die a horrible barbaric bloody death so that his “creations” can be forgiven by him but only if they “beleive” on this fairy tail. Lol sorry to be so callous but it is just so funny to think that any thinking man or woman could believe this story.

    The bible was written by men for “certain” men to rule over all the other men, this I am certain.

    • Buster December 11, 2012, 11:12 am

      Not that I’d necessarily argue with anyone’s overall interpretation of the Old Testament, but (I think) it was Abraham who was only tested in his obedience to Yahweh by the order to sacrifice his son Jacob instead of the usual animal sacrifice. Yahweh stopped him just in time & said he now knew Abraham was faithful. Also, possibly only the Adamic race is having the ‘God genes’ added. Adam was white, supposedly, based on the reference to him blushing. Interestingly, so were the Pharaohs according to DNA research, apparently, as were much of the house of Isreal according to references to them having blond hair, as I recall. The rule of certain men over other men was apparently based on their responsibility of maintaining God’s laws, which included among others but most notably debt laws. It was the failure of the rulers to adhere to these laws which apparently led to Israels decline at the hands of other nations. Sounds all to familiar nowadays, doesn’t it. The only time Israel likely followed the rules was under King David, which according to historians was also a time of peace & prosperity unlike any other before or since. Supposedly, & as I said I’m not a believer, just an inquiring observer, Jesus is supposed to be the greater King David with a future global Kingdom, as in ‘Thy kingdom come’ lords prayer. I don’t believe it, personally, but I hope it’s true, as without some outside superior force I conclude that the human race is doomed to continued strife & decline. Biblical references seem to show that the whole issue at the centre of this planets struggles is one of the true sovereignty of the Creator, & I am inclined to at least agree that “it does not belong to man even to direct his own step”, purely based on the inadequacies in ourselves as a species. I think history does & will agree with this conclusion, yet final intervention from a Biblical perspective is supposed to be to save the planet from this failure to rule ourselves, being just in the nick of time, which doesn’t bode too well for the meantime does it? It does make some sense, though I still don’t believe anything.

      As far as the endless arguing of the semantics & the never ending questions, I think we need some answers, & even if they are spoken from God himself they’d better be some bloody good ones! There is evidence that humans have been suffering & dying along with other creatures in this world where everything is being eaten or eating something else, for millions of years. This is so out of sync with being self aware & with all our desire & capacity for happiness.

      There is a large movement of people who believe we are soon to get a collective upgrade in our consciousness which will also coincide with a rejection of the Powers that be that have kept us all blind & enslaved. Then, supposedly, life will go on in a better world. For me this just isn’t enough. For a start I have no faith in human beings, & there will still be death & suffering. On behalf of all those who have & will die from wars, starvation, torture, natural disasters as well as fading away in old age, I say please just drop the bomb now & get it over with once & for all! If I was to stand before God himself I’d tell it to him straight. It’s got to be all or nothing.
      Hopefully he’d agree.

    • BDTR December 11, 2012, 6:38 pm

      “It’s got to be all or nothing.”

      All in, eh, Buster? Need I remind you that patience, too, is a virtue? Successful predators employ it in nature, wise parents in family rearing, disciplined trainers and educators of every stripe and, pertinent to this blog, traders and investors.

      Perspective is essential for what we deem success in all practical matters. Recognizing that human development has evolved its breadth of perspective, irrespective of its ability to comprehensively apply it to date, doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re shut out from successfully doing so. Hope, too, is a shared human trait.

      What seems most urgent to our long term survival is coming to existential terms with our ignorance and arrogance. It means recognizing arcane models of belief and our common jeopardy if we fail to do so.

      When fear drives us, we react defensively and destructively usually compounding uncertainty and hastily grasping for convenient solutions. Religions originated as attempts to relieve natural fear of the vast unknowns in primitive existence and under those circumstances were the best we could do.

      As model for authority and social stability religion has been useful but, as we all know, subject to its own destructive fear based agendas when challenged by splinter beliefs and continues obstinate to science, arguably an evolved and existentially practical model to allow a prospective future for the entire species.

      The rampant violence spawned by conflicting religious belief is our recurrent dilemma, ominously shaping our socioeconomic, political and military models. Political resistance to scientific data and its reasonably albeit imperfect projections indicating unsustainable environmental exploitation have a base in conservative, faith based religion.

      ‘Wars and rumors of wars’ in today’s world represent the apocalyptic expectation, even desire, of ancient self-fufilling religious prophesy.

      Youth’s are persuaded to strap on suicide vests in the name of one ‘God’, and others feel religiously justified in amassing rag-head body counts. Hey, you just can’t turn the other cheek if your head’s been separated from your shoulders, can you? And, as the AP posted today, seven religion dominated nations execute non-believing atheists and ‘blasphemers’.

      While we don’t burn witches here in the west anymore, belief still imposes its injustice in the secular world in lingering racial and gender economic imbalances that contradict the most basic standards of our rational, revolutionary, constitutional standards of equality and justice.

      The stark legacy of anti-democratic religious belief infects our political structure, our unity as a secular nation, even discounting the worth of disseminating the useful product of centuries of scientific observation, theory, hypothesis, experimentation and verification. A wholly irrational dedication to ignorance and injustice through determined religious bias. Science, be damned.

      Now, financial banking has assumed the mantle of religion and the elite priesthood of economic dominance wherein god has denomination, ‘in fiat we trust’. Faith in a myth based system of Wall Street and the City of London that defies reason, justice and laws both fiducial and of thermodynamics just as surely as does the Vatican and Mecca. As contemporary Knights Templar wielding leverage and technical weapons to plunder believer investors, enabled by scripture of Pope Greenspan and holy successor, the Bernak.

      Free-minded renegades to the chains of belief simply demand elemental relief.

      Fact, truth, and gold in both nugget and rule.

    • Buster December 11, 2012, 10:53 pm

      Interesting thoughts, BDTR.
      My observations & current conclusions of all religions is that they have been leveraged one way or another by TPTB throughout the ages, but who have in more more recent times moved into other methods of mind control, including finance,among others, for the purpose of controlling the populous. The mainstream media channels could arguably be seen as a modern & more relevant version of the diminished religious authorities of our current age, but even these are perhaps losing their grip on the social mind due to the internet & independent news channels.
      All this does not necessary mean that there may be some real story at at the root of religion, & I have actually not found a problem reconciling creationism & scripture with science, other than with misinterpretation & superficial analysis, as I can clearly see is the case with many who’s arguments show both these mistakes are prevalent. I conclude that one must not care too deeply what is the correct answer to find it. I have no belief in God, if perhaps only a hope in a possible answer to what I see is an otherwise pointless waste of our self awareness that is doomed to a permanent struggle at odds with our needs & true potential. Despite my non belief, based on my own knowledge & understanding of things, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out there is one. The natural order of things should be ‘disorder’, but I keep seeing ‘order’ & providence that often scares me to the point of giving up on the possibility of an accidental universe entirely. However, I do struggle on with the ‘chance’ of it, just in case, but I suspect that the only thing really left to do is try to figure out what ‘God’ actually is, & which is no doubt very different from the establishment’s view.
      There are those who are adamant that UFO’s don’t exist and will talk with certainty on the matter. I know, I was one of them. Having since actually seen 5 of the things I’m only left trying to figure out what the hell they actually are. That hard lesson taught me we need to have an open mind & try to look for any possible answer. It’s a good thing to practice but doesn’t come easily due to our individual perspective.

  • martin schnell December 10, 2012, 4:24 pm

    It is hard to see how faith should ever trump facts.

    Anyone who uses a little perspective and a little logic can see that the current mainstream religions are really all just revisions to previous religions and are essentially man-made. That is not to say that there are not some good lessons in these religions, just that the factual basis for them (their gods and satans and heavens and hells) are non-existent.

    All people in fact are primarily non-believers of a sort – that is they do not believe in Zeus, or Jupiter, or Thor, or any of the thousands of gods that have preceded the god they now believe in.

    Skeptics just add a few more gods to those that others do not believe in.

    Skeptics are those who keep an open mind and require reasonable evidence before accepting an idea (this acceptance though is always conditional on no new evidence coming along that is contrary). I have no fixed ideas on issues like the existence of a god, I just have not yet seen any persuasive evidence to form a positive opinion on the subject (though it is quite easy to see that existing religions clearly have major problems with reality).

    My hope is that we can get to where faith is seen as a negative, akin to willful blindness. Then maybe we can get on with solving the real problems and addressing the real issues we face in this life, on this planet, in this universe.

    • Chuck December 10, 2012, 6:05 pm

      and would those problems include voting yourself the right to take hard earned money and giving it to those that – even if they can’t find the work they prefer – would do nothing in exchange for that gift EXCEPT VOTE FOR MORE.

    • Chuck December 10, 2012, 6:09 pm

      I like to ‘keep it simple’….how about the old way of thinking (way back even before the colonies)…if you don’t work – you don’t eat!

    • Benjamin December 10, 2012, 7:18 pm

      martin: “Then maybe we can get on with solving the real problems and addressing the real issues we face in this life, on this planet, in this universe.”

      Assuming that faith/religion truly does get in the way of anything. But who says pressing matters can be solved? Really, when all is said and done… What problem facing man since man has had problems to face, has truly been solved?

      None. No matter how much we advance and acheive new solutions, we still had and continue to have the same problems to address. Day to day, month to month, year to year, etc. Another way to look at it is like this…

      In the movie ‘Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory’, the office we see near the end is only ever half done. And yet, Wonka says to the kid and his grandfather that he’s “very busy” when they walk in, to ask about Charlie’s reward. The lesson to see here is that in any business, ones work is ALWAYS only ever half done, at most. Which is to say that the only time ones work is done is when one is no longer in business.

      So given that bit of insight, I know that erradicating faith and religion is a fool’s errand. A fool’s errand for a fool’s paradise. One undertaking such a task is bound to waste more time and cause more harm than they would by simply living and let live.

  • BDTR December 10, 2012, 4:12 pm

    A wholly ponderable weekend post, Rick.

    The absence of belief itself fosters the necessary humility to even, honestly approach an attempt to experience the freedom of being. In my mind, that would be any God’s greatest gift to itself and requisite to creation.

    Words, outside of poetry, are hard pressed to describe the circumstance in discovery of ‘truth’. These, perhaps familiar, come approximately close for me;

    ‘Then take me disappearin’ through the smoke rings of my mind
    Down the foggy ruins of time,
    far past the frozen leaves
    The haunted, frightened trees,
    out to the windy beach
    Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow

    Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky
    with one hand waving free
    Silhouetted by the sea,
    circled by the circus sands
    With all memory and fate
    driven deep beneath the waves
    Let me forget about today until tomorrow.’

    I submit, Buster, that most fortunately there are no certain answers, just more questions.

  • crusty December 10, 2012, 3:51 pm

    oh how fun! lets just follow recorded history to see where it goes …… there surely are cuneiform scribblings that predate the egyptian stone pics linking aunt mime to great cousin ferd sometime before the babylon tower-of-power days … hmm nope ….nary a hack mark nor rope twisting account to connect written event to paintings in the cave to join those learned prognosticated eons of supossition and wonder . As for the creator / creation, the ‘out’ may be ‘ one day is to God as a thousand years, and a thousand years is a single day’ to explain 6 days of work before the 1 day of rest. Afterall, was God’s day reference Earth days? Odd things such as Trillobyte fossils (said to predate man) found inside foot print fossils cause giddy tittering at paleontologist get togethers as to the meaning, and historians attempting re explanations of archiological digs suddenly fixing long-thought non existing biblical sites into the books as fact. Give into the mix all biblical historical accounts of predicted events have proven true, yes, even the re-establishment of Isreal as a nation in 1948, that little dude 50 miles wide at best still fights for existance amongst the mid eastern right-to-lifer’s. If you be a non beleiver, at best you break even, die, and stop. If not, you end up worse off than human imagination can place your future. If you choose to beleive and accept, you at worst if wrong, die and break even, but if right, find yourself in amazingly great circumstances. What is lost tho, is that right to rape rob and steal your brothers wife while living la vida loca on your way to the worm farm by accepting the idea of a greater being than ones self to be accountable to. Your own choice, how simple ……. enjoy those waining days, as the sands of the hour glass, so go the days of our lives!

  • John Jay December 10, 2012, 3:35 pm

    Nice reflection, James, at this festive time of the year for Judeo-Christian peoples of faith.
    The problem is once you move from an individual relationship with a Greater Power to organized “Religion”, people begin to take advantage for financial gain.
    The prophet George Carlin expressed this situation best in one of his rants which I will quote as best I can from memory:
    “God is all knowing, all seeing, all powerful,the Creator of the Universe, and all it’s life.
    And he needs your money!”

  • RingPeace December 10, 2012, 2:58 pm

    I can’t think of one religion that doesn’t have a basis in sex, drugs or sun worship.
    Whether your “god” is the wonder of fertility and reproduction, the enlightenment and mystery of entheogenics or based in some other astrotheological belief, the purposes of religion is to provide a type of ‘social glue’ at best, or mass control at worst. The latter culminating in war over the riches and power that the various ‘churches’ (religious control) dictate.
    In modern times we have become supposedly enlighten by science and marketing, and therefore our new religions are things like ‘Coke vs Pepsi’ or ‘iPhone vs Android’.
    Humans seem to have a basic need to make sense of all things. Some explanations are satisfied by science, some by mind-control (education) and some are not explained at all. Syncretic texts like the Bible draw from many beliefs and cultures into a single source – like an ancient Wikipedia if you will. And, in a similar fashion, those who moderated the ‘facts’ in the text controlled the content and message.
    From religion based on nature to religion based on fiat currency one things remains constant – humans do not have the capacity to understand or control either.

  • ray kayal December 10, 2012, 2:12 pm

    God, the world beginning 6000 years ago, presently and in the future make more sense when you read the Word, literally. The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, it judges the thoughts an attitudes of the heart. Heb. 4:12 God’s word is alive. Jesus Christ the Word of God.
    The Bible is a fact book, containing history,science,sociology,and more. I believe 2Tim 3:16 which says “all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
    Ray

    • mario cavolo December 11, 2012, 5:33 am

      Ray, I am born a typical Italian American Catholic, and while I don’t go to church every Sunday, I also don’t reject the ideas of faith and would not.

      That said, let me suggest you need to read up on history; the collection of readings in the Bible was put together by a variety of government and secular leaders (they were not separate in society then) who were the instigators of several centuries of warring, barbaric slaughter and the normal presence of true slavery of the lower classes. Our God was not divinely encouraging them with unconditional love from above to act that way and so let’s not put blind faith where it doesn’t belong.

      I am not trying to upset you or be arrogant, but yes, I am trying to burst your bubble, to think for yourself and become an aware human being.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Buster December 10, 2012, 1:10 pm

    Interesting subject for sure James. I tend to concur with you, it seems.

    I usually find it as hard work talking to ‘believers’ as I do to ‘non-believers’, as too often both sides are so polarized as to be almost incapable of looking at anything with a clear mind. Despite the occasions when I may talk about certain things with some conviction, truly I don’t ‘know’ anything, being conscious that I’m just a questioning observer. This is a good place to start, I think, having no ‘belief’, & from this point I try to build a theory of our existence based on logical reasoning of things seen & unseen. I find my own understanding sadly limited, though still some way ahead of all others I’ve met who seem so certain, but who on the whole find my knowledge of these subjects fascinating up to the point it threatens to challenge their own strongly held belief system, which is itself usually based just on the doctrine of someone or a group claiming to be the ‘true religion’ & inspired by god himself, no less. If these were anything other than the doctrines or interpretations of men, why do they clearly get it wrong & later make revisions.

    But I have come to accept that there really is something very big going on, even if I’m unsure what the hell it is! No doubt Ill continue to get bombarded by people with all the answers, but who probably haven’t asked the right questions. I tend to do so & find their plan is unconvincing. I prefer to await certain events to hopefully clarify my own reasonings.

    But with current research showing that DNA is acting like an antenna that, in effect, broadcasts an image of an organism & that is somehow receiving the instructions from some form of universal consciousness, plus an image of the Universe’s dark energy channels apparently resembling a brain itself, I am probably closer to a believer than most. This research has apparently shown that by shining the right frequency through one healthy living thing to an unhealthy one, the latter becomes health. Apparently an old woman grew new teeth via a young person in one experiment done in this way. What the bleep do we really know, hey? But it does seem to take ‘God’s light shining on us’ from the supernatural into the realms of the scientific.

    Probably though, the biggest clincher for me is that of the apparent connection between the human mind & matter, with research showing that Jesus may really have been onto something. I think it can be explained by the universe being, effectively, an electro magnetic structure, as thought is & more specifically ‘feelings’ are also, but quite why the connection technique under study should require a feeling of love or empathy is beyond me unless this ‘God is love’ statement is true.
    All this is notwithstanding the apparent wisdom of scriptures, or examples of prophecy such as those Daniel made that we know from archaeological records seem to have been hundreds of years before the said events. But this could all be part of a huge conspiracy to keep mankind subservient. Who knows? But when I consider that the Biblical accounts of the God, Yahweh, described him together with angels walking, sitting, eating & drinking with Abraham in his tent in apparent human form, including them travelling in the sky in vessels described by Ezekiel that may well resemble modern day UFO’s, together with the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol used for ‘gods’ also being conspicuously similar, I find myself questioning every mainstream religions interpretation. The 6000 year time-span of humans is a good one, since the ‘Gods’ were making man in their image, but man may well have been living on the Earth already, and so they were only changing his personality into a ‘likeness’ of theirs, quite possibly. The Biblical accounts clearly talk about existing peoples & nations when the Adam/Eve family was still just getting started. Similarities between the Bible & the Sumerian records seem to agree with this account too. It’s a very big & interesting subject if one is able to leave their religion out of it & really start to question things. Unfortunately, there are no certain answers, just more questions.