How Home Prices Will Find a Bottom

Years ago, when talk of an epic housing bust was considered looney-bin stuff, we predicted that deflation would cause home prices in the U.S. to fall by at least 70 percent.  With prices roughly halfway there, there is no change in our outlook. But the question remains as to how the real estate market will eventually find a bottom. The following scenario seems entirely plausible to us. It was written by one of the smartest guys we know, a Colorado-based financial advisor who has done very well for his clients over the last several, extremely challenging, years.  With the wealthy shouldering most of the burden, here is how our friend thinks home prices eventually will be made to “clear” in the marketplace:

“Short sale” has always been tough to explain to investors. First you borrow the stock, then you sell it. But now we have a much more easily understood concept, as it applies to housing transactions. The proceeds of the sale come up short of the amount owed, so you get to stiff the lender. And the Treasury Department endorses it. Seems simple enough. But wait; weren’t they just trying to prevent foreclosure? Well, fear not. This isn’t foreclosure. This is deed in lieu, lease in lieu, or emergency program in lieu of foreclosure. One must assume that the original “mortgage modification” program carried with it the expectation that the economy could catch up to the problems of insufficient income, job loss and home price decline quickly enough that families could stay in their homes with some help from Uncle Sam. Clearly, the economy hasn’t cooperated.

The new program is designed to make the process of getting delinquent and “underwater” homeowners out of their homes smoother and less costly, at least for the lenders. According to the NYT, the servicer gets $1000 to execute, the second mortgage holder gets $1000 to go away and the ex-homeowner gets $1500 in moving expenses. The homeowner also gets released from further liability by the lender and there is currently a moratorium on the 1099 and attendant tax liability that normally gets issued for “debt forgiveness”. The first mortgage lender gets relief from the now worthless claims of second mortgage or home equity loan lenders (mostly banks and credit unions). In the case of a “short sale” they can wash their hands of the whole miserable investment. In the case of “deed in lieu” or “lease in lieu” they at least get the property back, in good condition, plumbing and all. According to the NYT, “as many as half of all foreclosed properties are ransacked by either the former owners or vandals”. I would add Mother Nature to that, in conjunction with the fact that delinquent homeowners can typically stretch their period of non-payment out at least one year while they live cost-free.

The Return of Frugality

So what does it mean for the housing market and the economy? First of all, many families that over-extended their real estate consumption during the bubble can “right size” into a much less expensive rental (or purchase). After the debacle that homeownership has been for these displaced families, frugality must be an attractive alternative. Next, it means realizing substantial losses by lenders. Most first mortgages are owned or insured by the Federal Government. Many are owned by non-bank investors. The ultimate write downs will depend on where the housing market clears. This is where the chart of the Case-Shiller Index and Bob Farrell’s Rule #4 offer the best estimate. Almost all of the second lien debt is owned by banks and credit unions. The NYT article puts second lien debt at over $1 trillion and the portion that is on modified situations will probably be lost. Simply greasing the wheels for short sales does not create demand. Because the short sale process is vulnerable to fraud, appraisal rules will try to insure that legitimate buyers are engaged in short sale purchases. It is reasonable to assume that deed in lieu of foreclosure will become the new normal. In any case, inventory should expand dramatically, further driving price discovery to a point of clearing.

The part of the real estate market that is least impacted by the Administration’s housing initiatives are the upper end residential and vacation properties. These properties will probably have, at the margin, a large percentage of “underwater” owners that can make the payments, but would rather reduce exposure. It is easy to see how the Federal Government will have its hands full with households that are suffering inexorably with the housing crash. It is reasonable to assume that the costs associated with the middle class will be borne by the wealthy. Recourse will probably be progressive, as will the moratorium on tax liability for debt that is forgiven.

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  • CrisisMaven April 2, 2010, 9:57 pm

    Hi Mike Eck, thanks for seconding, and all the others for participating, often taking the opposite stance – that was a lively discussion if ever there was one. Now, Fekete and Mish Shedlock, automaticearth and all others aside, I must make one clear statement: each of the posts on my blog should not be taken to state more than it openly does – in the above post about deflation I simply addressed the wide-spread misconception that money once injected into an economy via a credit transaction simply disappeared once it was written off. It doesn’t – someone, not the mortgagee, even not the original seller, may still have it in their possession, but certainly the very last entity it has yet returned to is the original creditor bank. If it writes off or not does not change the economy, only its own balance sheet. Let’s put it this way: say, the bank made an accounting blunder and added erroneously a mortgage to its books it didn’t own – would that INFLATE the economy? Certainly not. Then, if it again wrote off (corrected) that non-existant mortgage, would that “deflate” the economy? Equally not. I think that should settle it. I have not yet discussed in this post the whole breadth of the ramifications and reverberations of defaults – there are money aggregates that might be influenced, but certainly the money actually spent does not vanish, and that was the gist of that particular post or rather series of posts, e.g. on how a robber potentially causes inflation etc. However, the whole discussion would not even exist if various econmic schools would not derive from the diagnosis a recipe or prescription as to what should be done about that allegedly occuring and if occuring, allegedly harmful “deflation”. If we don’t know how to influence the weather we may discuss it but not fervently in the sense if today’s sunshine were to cause more or less rain tomorrow. We only discuss the climate now that we believe we could and should do something about it. So the next step in the “deflation and how to stave it off” debate were: can there be something done about it and this feeds into a general underconsumption debate of which in my most recent post I argue there is no such thing as underconsumption, deflation or not.

  • Oliver March 27, 2010, 2:05 pm

    To all, maybe: here is discussion about who owes what in the US Fed system and whether the money remains in the system or not: when a bank hands out 1 million in the now active system, indeed, it needs a mere 10% percent of that in “reliable” assets to cover.
    The rest is, I must remind, merely monetary and fits into Krugman´s very, very misleading and slightly ridiculous “coupon-theory”.
    Yes, in monetary terms, fiat-money, electronically and paper, maybe endless theoretically as it is simply governed by demand plus one dollar to ensure liquidity at any given moment. Book written.
    Not so with debt, but only so with the part expected to be repaid at any given moment.
    If a borrower fails, in ordinary times, the bank owes the whole amount to the Fed in the end. If the bank fails, it´s the investor, then the government that owns the debt immediately in full (plus any securities, ideally, but I think in the US investors seem to keep those securities before the government, but the government gets to keep the liabilities?).

    As long as everything is ordinarily repaid and all´s juicy, indeed, most of the money is coupons, funny money.
    What is never funny money is the expected amount to be repaid at any given time and it´s interest at that moment relative to all interests at that moment (today!). The total amount owed remains funny money as long as repayment is normal.

    The second this chain ruptures, funny money turns real.

    In ordinary times, about a 0.5 to 1.0% are expected to fail, max.. 2% is very sweaty, already. Most (many) banks fail at that point.
    Everything´s calculated around that floor.
    The US housing market is currently at around 14% percent delinquency, if numbers are correct. 7 times under regular waters.
    And that is where the velocity of the money in the fiat-system comes in.

    So beware of that euphemistic easy-sounding term “to write off”. Nothing´s ever writen off that has touched the main street cycle. In the Fed system banks don´t need savings anymore, except, maybe for the 10% you need a bit to cover on the books; noone seems to need savings anymore (cynical).
    But the minute things go bad, the debt remains forever, as anyone individual cannot say my debt´s written off. As an event, it remains with you for life. You cannot change the fact that you lost 50.000. Because if you make 5.000 afterwards, without the loss, you´d have 55.000 and not merely 5.000. Unless the experience turns you a millionaire banker by trying you, this is a deflationary moment. For the whole world, actually, in a floating fiat-currency system.
    If a bank “writes off” loans, it hands that over to the tax payer (in normal systems to the investor) via the Fed and the Treasury, to whom the funny money has now become real by needing to pay regulars and interest on the loss (not the whole lump sum amount is in the system! That is only in the books, affecting the delCredere, affecting the interest. Plus deficit spending in this case now. Adding politically guided misallocations of resources onto one another.)

    As this causes deflationary effects in individuals emotionally and real, it is deflationary technically for the crowd.
    As long as deflation occurs this way, slowing the velocity of money, flooding the market with “coupons” is technically correct as money still reaches those with justified demand.
    Problem is, that it then keeps reaching those whose demand has turned out to be unjustified, causing the “coupons” to reach beyond justified demand and thus cause the velocity of money to accelerate as it keeps being turned into “reliable” assets, whatever that is.
    The problem is and will always remain, as long as man is as man now is, the credit-expansion, it´s speed and it´s quality.
    Problems there are problems for everybody. I think, if I look at it like that, the US is just turning into the biggest landlord on the globe. ;-)/ 🙁

    The US is in a very nasty game of socializing failure and privatizing gains. Big scale. Money´s moving from bottom to top in a speed and shamelessness that´s astounding. The last time stuff like that happened in that scale the result was Josef Stalin.

    Please be aware that the ECB is not working like the Fed. ECB is at 1%, because of the US and the UK flooding. ECB´d be insane to not go along. But the whole idea of ECB and Fed is quite different. ECB is governed by German austerity banking and tight book-keeping. Deficit spending is a conundrum for many Germans, instinctively. The ECB´s not doing any real QE. Latest development in Germany: state debt ceiling in the “constitution”.
    Where it has to be, as Keynes does not work with democratic leaders needing to be re-elected unless it´s in the “constitution”.

    Bon soir, and I´m always greatful for deeper visions and contrarian stances.

    &&&&&&

    Amazing that so few, including that disgrace to the dismal science, Nobelist Paul Krugman, seem to understand that, in the end, every penny of every debt must be repaid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender. RA

  • Oliver March 24, 2010, 9:02 am

    To Benjamin: Oh no, I don´t know him personally, either, sorry to have left that impression. He actually gets translated quite well into German. I found him among German gold bug pages. And I was immediately intrigued.
    Many times we compare the situation with 1929. I think we cannot possibly do that. Europe was in ruins. There was no mere talk about heavy realignment of social order, like now. It was rolling through Europe full fledge destructively. Second, the reanimation of markets, or really the effects of modern industrialization on markets then took full effect first in the anglo-american realm with a mere 250 to 300 or so million people entering and thriving in middle class. We have none of the horrendous problems, we had then.
    And with the now growing middle class in India and China alone, you´re talking about 1.6 BILLION people. Those two countries from that region alone.
    Remember the “Wirtschaftswunder” in Germany? Only some 60 million, then, needing pots, pants and poultry. Times IT-age, times renewable-energy age, times robotics.
    I begin to see a different picture than just a straightforward bearish one. I think it might be more complicated.
    We might be in for an upside surprise, we can´t even understand, yet.
    But so we were before WWI and II. And before it went up, it really went down first.
    I think we´ll have to be on alert for many years to come.
    What people also tend to forget about Europe is that we haven´t even started moving to southern Europe for the retirement years, like the US already had it´s Florida et al binge.
    I, for instance, move to the south of France now and I´m very happy about the prices. I think I might get into real estate and banking for the first time in my life. I come from the corporate strategy realm and I think there will be two gigantic changes in banking and credit sourcing. It´ll privatize globally, like journalism and politics. Sounds quite anti-cyclical, right? The koan: All credit sourcing through regular banking will go bust completely. But credit services will expand wildly. What´s the business?

    Anyway, everybody´s guessing. But I fear that the problems might end up being a lot more contained to the anglo-saxon realm as we now expect. England is simply not what it was 50 years ago. The industrial base is almost gone. The US industrial base shrank from 23% GDP to 12 % in a mere 20-25 yrs. THAT´s where the horror is, in my opinion…
    I don´t think a service and IT-economy can be upheld in a land without a strong industrial high-tech base, as it is from there that excellent service solutions find it´s qualified demand which can be mass customized. Services spin-off from capital goods services.
    Take care.
    John Mauldin, I think, is an excellent character for further auto-didactic learning. Peter Schiff, too, obviously.
    And a must-read for all and everybody: Reinhart and Rogoff´s “This time is different”.
    AND one can learn a hell of a lot from Martin A. Armstrong. Never mind him being in prison. That´s another story about the US today I don´t even want to start here.
    And it is also wise these days to undust the Austrian Economics school around Mises and Hayek. They didn´t read about the great depression and collapse of nations and hyperinflation, they were there.
    It is also good to read Australian stuff as they are very connected in the resources sector, specifically in China.
    AND: if you made good money through luck, please don´t try again. Fate invited you to become savy in investing, maybe, but it invited you to start learning. Hedge, hedge, hedge and never bet your life on anything.

  • Benjamin March 23, 2010, 10:08 pm

    Mike Eck:
    http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFFrontRunningTheFedInTheTreasuryMarket.pdf

    That’s the latest, though it’s a recurrig theme throughout his essays. Anyway, in carefuly re-reading your posts, it seemed to me that you were arguing for hyper/inflation on the basis that there’s no way for money to disappear from the writing down/off of debt, which is why I decided to try and show how it could (though my explanation seems a bit off now). I’ll have another read of your points and Maven’s when I get the time, but for now let’s call it an end.

    Oliver 03.23.10 at 6:42 am :

    I have to admit that I skimmed over your post, pursuing the discussion from Mike Eck as I as. I’m still picking my way through it, but there is one thing that stood out to me almost immediately, and that is the rise of China and India. I’m still of the mind that it remains to be seen, but that would be another way we could have inflation and deflation at the same time. Terribly so. I tend to forget that when considering things, and I suppose I’d better stop doing that, eh?

    Anyway, so… You him personally? I only read his stuff, but have never had the pleasure of meeting him, let alone getting to know him. He certainly is a brilliant man, though, and his unshakable stance on monetary policy is of course very admirable. If you would, please, give him my best regards. I think he would pleased to know that even in the most unlikely of places, from a person with the most unlikely of backgrounds, that he is appreciated and understood. In truth, I can’t say I’m an investor, and probably have no good reason to be here in forums like these, making comments. I just happened to make some incredibly lucky moves in my ignorance, made a small fortune in currency trading, and from there, sought out to find what this is all about. Just an on going student, forced into it by circumstances beyond my control!

    Anyway, take care. You too, Mike.

  • Oliver March 23, 2010, 6:42 am

    To Benjamin: I know Fekete, excellent man, please read my stuff then, as it is a somewhat already post-Feteke kind of thinking. It´s in there, but I arrive at a weirder scenario which might play out, or actually already does.
    But Fekete’s position is definitely learned and to be taken into consideration in all scenarios, I agree.

  • mugul rider March 23, 2010, 12:43 am

    You know what I love about inflationists? Their inability to even conceive of something that they have never experienced – deflation. Since it has never happened in their lifetime they just puddle along expecting a hyperinflation economy.

    There is no possibility that deflation can happen…

    Well let’s see.

    I bought a 60 grand car for 38 grand 3 months ago
    I bought a Florida condo for 90 % off from it’s price 3 year ago.
    I have numerous Canadian properties that I sold to people at 7 times what I paid for them all the while knowing that they will be worth 90% less soon enough (That’s called selling the top for those of you who have never done it).

    I can hear it now – yeah but that is price deflation not real deflation. Let me say this. From where I play and invest the over capacity in the system is so extreme that guys like me with oodles of CASH! can buy stuff at my whim for 30% off.

    You see very few people actually have any cash today. They are broke.

    Is this deflation? 3 years ago I couldn’t even barter 5% off, now they literally hang on my pant leg as I leave their store screaming for me to buy at ANY PRICE!

    I know what inflationists really are – people with no cash who are in deep doo-doo.

    LOL

  • mugul rider March 23, 2010, 12:37 am

    You know what I love about inflationists? Their inability to even conceive of something that they have never experienced — i.e., deflation. Since it has never happened in their lifetime, they just piddle along expecting a hyperinflation.

    There is no possibility that deflation can happen? We shall see.

    I bought a $60k car for $38k 3 months ago
    I bought a Florida condo for 90% less than it was listed for three years ago.
    I have numerous Canadian properties that I sold to people at seven times what I paid for them, and I won’t be surprised if they lose 90% of their value eventually.

    I can hear it now: “Yeah, but that is “price” deflation, not “real” deflation. Let me say this: From where I’m sitting, overcapacity in the system looks so extreme that anyone with cash can buy stuff on a whim for 30% off. You see, very few people actually have any cash today. They are broke.

    Is this deflation? Three years ago, I couldn’t barter for a five percent discount; now sellers hang on my trouser leg, begging me to buy something, anything, as I leave their stores.

    Many inflationists are probably just people with no cash who are in deep doo-doo.

    LOL

  • S. Aprov March 22, 2010, 9:42 pm

    Hey Cameroni … you really should get your facts straight … I have no debt.
    I repeat …. the rich, their attitudes and their fiat money are to blame for this worldwide financial mess. I have no sympathy for them when they’re forced to deal with the problems they’ve created… they sought to unfairly enrich themselves at the expense of others just as Bobtor points out above. What do you think the unemployed car workers in Ontario and Michigan think – eh?
    Regards

  • Mike Eck March 22, 2010, 4:02 pm

    bobtor:

    I would not still have the dollar if I bought a candy bar with it, but someone would still have that dollar…the store owner, the truck owner who delivered it, the gas station who sold him fuel, the place he bought a cup of coffee, the candy manufacturer, the sugar beet grower, and on and on and on. That is the essence of the argument made by CrisisMaven.

    Now you explain, in a logical manner, how the bank foreclosing on my loan takes that dollar out of the system…hell, neither they nor I even know where it is at. It, like all the dollars created to buy houses stays in circulation until someone pays a loan, interest or taxes with them. Well, ironically flushing it down the toilet would have the same effect, but foreclosure does not.

    I am well aware that debt/dollars/frns are not money. That is really the basis of my argument that the federal government has no debt…the so called debt is based in dollars and they have the legal authority to create dollars with printing presses and keystrokes.
    —————————
    Benjamin:

    I have read many of Antal’s articles, but maybe not those. My argument is really not about flation. CrisisMaven made a point that everyone seems to be ignoring about foreclosures not taking the money out of the system and I restated that argument just above. Since all money now-a-days is actually debt and will exit the system only when debt is repaid, it looks, on the surface, to be inflationary. However, since interest also takes money out of the system, a deflationary argument can be make.

    My point about there being no federal debt is also restated in the simplest of terms just above.

    Mike

  • Dusty March 21, 2010, 7:50 pm

    Paint me stupid with a brush, but did the banks really lose money on real-estate?

    The banks were leveraged 35:1 so if someone deposits $1 million in their bank, they can now lend out $35 million. That means 70 people can now get $500,000 mortgages to buy a house that the market claims was worth $500,000 at the time. 5 years later the same houses in the current marketplace are only worth half of what they were mortgaged at. That means the property was devalued by 50% or $17.5 million and on their books and they have a $17.5 million loss. They foreclosed on these properties and are sitting on $17.5 million in real-estate they have to unload. But they got the $17.5 million in real-estate using only $1 million of cash. So how did they lose money? For them to break even the houses would have to drop in price to 1/35th of the appraised value which would be $500,000/35=$14,286 for each house. How many $500,000 houses are selling for $14,286? So how did the banks lose money?

    To add salt to the wounds of the public the Wall St banks created money out of nothing by creating portfolios with Asset Backed Securities that were based on this real-estate. This was then sold on the open market to other institutions including pension funds and individual investors. They had derivatives based on derivatives based on derivatives. They were able to resell the same property over and over again. If I sold my house to 5 different people at the same time, I’d land up in jail. But if the banks do it, they are rewarded with substantial profit. If the banks didn’t make the full amount on the transaction, they cry uncle and the taxpayers make up the difference so they win again.

    The people who bought houses and the CDO’s are the people who lost REAL money in the mortgage scandal because they paid cash and ended up with nothing. The banks, still have the real-estate that they can sell to another bunch of suckers down the road.

    So in my opinion, the money lost by the banks were just bookkeeping entries.

    Dusty

  • FranSix March 21, 2010, 5:33 pm

    What exactly will work to “mop up” excess liquidity? A reduction of interest rates below zero, and of course, a higher gold price in the face of deflation. Gold price advances are a mitigating factor, because this devalues currencies.

    There, you have it in a nutshell!

    -F6

  • Benjamin March 21, 2010, 5:19 am

    When I read this on friday, I just knew a ‘flations debate would break out!

    Mike Eck said: “No one has explained how the money gets back out of the system when a loan is foreclosed. There is a good reason they have not, because it does not. Maybe it can be absorbed as interest on new loans eventually…”

    Have you ever read the inflation/deflation debate through the works of Antal Fekete? If not, I highly recommend you do so. My view on everything changed once I grasped what he says, and it continues to do so to this day. I’ll give the gist of it here, followed by a conclusion based on my on analysis…

    The Fed enters the market to buy short-dated treasurys. The market, knowing they will buy, pre-empts them, which causes the price to rise. The Fed pays the higher price, the bonds are dumped in their lap, and the proceeds, to varying degrees, go right back in. This suppresses inflation in other assets, and will, ultimately, cause all assets to revalue to the downside.

    And that’s it. Pretty simple, yet it’s how the world works. Simple, but quite ugly because…

    That drives up the stakes. The bonds only get more expensive. Thus, credit and it’s resulting bubble and bust. The market wants to stay where the risk-free profits are, so in order to stay in, credit is created and in used in place of the actual money that is trapped in the Fed’s game. The resulting debts are written down or even written off entirely, as needed, in order to accomodate “speculation”. I suppose one can also make the argument that even without credit, revaluation would force all other assets down, from the increaing price of the Fed’s chips. Whatever the case…

    At some point the chips themselves must revalue because, theoretically, all money the Fed has ever created will wind up in treasurys, and people would be flat broke if not dead for the want of circulation. But as money disappears from circulation and into “speculation”, tax revenues that are to pay the interest fall short. That can only force interest to rise, and thus the price of the chips to lower.

    However, once that happens, credit disappears and the market is forced to revalue all other things to the downside. Another way of saying it is that default becomes rampant, which forces all to the negotiation table. All that created money currently held by the Fed’s game plan, as much as it is, would _not_ flood into the market because it becomes one of drastically reduced prices. Hyper-inflation has, shall we say, a limited potential.

    But the higher interest on treasurys will indeed snap up much of the excess. It will because taxation will nessecarily have to rise, which happens because, circulating money being in short supply, the government is looking under every couch cushion and in every coffee cup holder for loose change. Once they figure out where the money actually is, the depression-idled excess is what they seize and spend. But again, the money enters a market of drastically reduced prices. Once more, hyper-inflation has, shall we say, a limited potential.

    So you’re right about interest on new loans. That is precisely how hyper-inflation in a western, centralized system is prevented. We’re not Zimbabawe. Western governments and central banks are terrible at causing hyper-inflation. They’re very good at causing depressions, though.

    Not that they _cannot_ cause hyper-inflation. They might blunder, and that’s why I have some bling bling and shiny clink clink. But there is nothing that says it needs to happen. History doesn’t exactly repeat, but patterns do. With economies having peaked in the multi-trillions, and with highly productive technologies, among other factors, hyper-inflation today seems about as likely as hyper-inflation in gold supply. If they could double the historic peaks across the board, I’d be fairly surprised. Hundreds times or more, and I’ll eat my gold and silver.

    “…but I really don’t think the bankers would let it all exit the system in that manner…their profits on newly created money are just too juicy to pass up.”

    Oh, they’ll hem and haw about this and that, but in the end the government will figure out that the football isn’t another monkey, and they’ll levy the tax in exactly the right place because, quite simply, we’re broke and the banking system really isn’t. Again, history doesn’t repeat exactly every time, but we can be assured that the transfer of wealth will take place. Maybe the social unrest til that point will cause some impressive inflation, but again, hyper-inflation past the historic peaks would take quite a bit of malcontent to occurr.

    Not that I condone any of this. Together, the bastards play a game of keep-away with a good portion of the wealth of the productive class, just tossing it back and forth between them! Hyper-inflation would at least destroy both of them, and leave us free (if endangered) in anarchy. We’re not that lucky, though, because like us they have survival instincts.

    Anyway, Mike, there ya go. If you grasp all of that, congratulations and welcome to the club… You’re a deflationist now!

  • Oliver March 21, 2010, 4:37 am

    A ten mill $ NYC apt. for 250.000.-? Be beautiful, I´ll be there. I realize this hard fight between deflationists around Prechter et al and the inflationists around much everybody. I think the problem is that both are right: I think the income side of all things will be deflationary, maybe not nominally but real, while all things halfway worth anything real are inflating. I. e. wages will keep buying less, saving into it will be very frustrating due to ridiculous rates forever.
    I personally fear (as in assume) that Bernanke might not be able (compulsory moment) to raise rates for a long time. Then, as is starting now, the China and India new-middle-class theory will play out, and resume upward-pressure on prices of commodities and everything else people really need. Anything people don´t really need or can use to park their money somewhat safe, will fall dramatically in prices/worth/value.
    A hairdresser will have the greatest difficulty to make it, while farming might stage a comeback for wealth preservation for a while.
    All also depends in my opinion, whether that will then be called a crack-up boom or mere inflation.
    Anyway, it will be hard to not overpay for stuff reliable and stuff neglectable, as it will be hard to time things right. For gold, for example, I simply think the price is ridiculous. In Europe you pay over 850 Euros for an ounce of scrap 24 c metal, with which you don´t know what to do ever, unless you bought at 300 Euros or so to keep selling now, to buy what? Real estate? 850 Euros buys a lot of useful things, stocks of companies for instance, that may survive the fiercest of calamities AND pay dividends. Thyssen-Krupp, for instance, survived 2 WWs in the very middle of it. And that even amongst deserved accusations of having been part of the Nazi machinery. It survived two currency derailments and a full blown sovereign funds insolvency of nigh all European nations (a lot of US-citizens had to pay the bill, actually) in 1931/32.
    (Please do not ignore the insurance effect of gold even at these prices, but insurance is enough, in my opinion)
    That example only to show WHICH companies in the world might be the survivors of even the hardest of all times.
    I think it makes more sense to even buy stuff like that now, no matter what price, if one simply hedges the stuff with options. This is an especially attractive strategy with these kinds of dividend-companies (the power of compounding) as these really necessary companies will pay high dividends no matter what as they must keep competing for funds against sovereign states for a long period to come. We might actually already have been witness since summer of hard knock investors like Pimco, Allianz, SwissRe, MunichRe and the like doing what I suggest here, as the stocks I talk about tend to be index-blue-chips like telecoms , defence etc. I mean, three intra-day-traders buy stocks and the market rallies, this smells like there´s irritating buy and hold of strong hands in there somewhere. The PPT can´t make all prices…?
    Actually, this battle between scylla and charybdis might play out to not show much in terms of nominal prices at all as pressures might cancel each other out on the surface, but destructively smouldering underneath for years to come. A bit like cancer, maybe…

    In terms of real estate, there is that one solution hedging against many things: buy real estate to rent out to people making their money in crisis resistant jobs.
    Let the renter pay for parts of the credit, let the renter pay off the debt (no debt, which you cannot pay off with something in a day!) for you and keep buying and letting others pay off the debt.
    Much else, except have fun trading while it lasts, I think cannot be recommended in a situation like this.
    Another theory, more brave, would state that this is a financial crisis leading into heavy re-consolidation of competition worldwide, but not more (in these times of decades of misallocation of resources, bad enough). This theory has merit as of against 1929 we are now in an age of over-productivity through IT-machinery and robotics and other efficiency measures.
    Like General Electric might not make it, while Siemens might etc. Jaguar being an Indian company now (the irony!) etc., along those lines, like Tata and VW and Toyota/Honda/BYD (?) becoming the new mobility behemoths.
    Tja, the US taught the world free markets and liberty and now that. Very sad.
    By the way, don´t underestimate the Euro, especially in a crack-up-boom. Talk about a collapsing Euro is US wishful thinking. You cannot imagine the work and the power that has gone into the Euro. And the Euro is in Europe much more about becoming a family (yes, even with different languages, Europeans, especially the young, are settling criss cross Europe all over, noone, who doesn´t speak a second language) The Germans are furious, but they also know that potentially, if all governments in Europe would learn to do cost-cutting, anti-Parkinson business the way the businesses (also a formidable performance of the US businesses, by the way) learned to do to survive (post-)modern times.
    Like, take BMW in Munich: the design dept. has 7 languages and there is an american girl that doesn´t speak a word German or other, only speaks English all day and nobody minds (but they only speak English to her, well-trained people just keep switching languages all day here in Europe).
    The Euro stays. Greece might not stay in the Euro, but stay in the Union, obviously. Spain and Italy are real economies. Italy even has a competitive car company. Greece is no real economy. Greece´s blue chip stocks are Coca-Cola and Ikea liscencees and banks up to their noses in eastern/balkan stuff.
    Greetings.

  • cameroni March 21, 2010, 1:50 am

    Well Bobtor my fellow Canuck, we are indeed reading different newspapers. Or perhaps we just interpret the data differently. Last time I checked Canada’s (official) unemployment rate was still above 8% and although there was the appearance of strong jobs gains in January and February it is clear that many, many thousands of those jobs were generated by the Winter Olympics. How many? Well enough to thoroughly skew the statistics that is certain.

    Government stimulus measures (tax payer created jobs) still comprise a large portion of new hires and that program is slated to end. What do you think will happen to those positions when our stimulus money runs out? I will add that a large proportion of new jobs are temporary and part-time as well so lets not get too excited just yet. Thousands of quality high paid positions in the auto sector for example are now gone for good. They will not be returning any time soon with the dollar rising so sharply against the Greenback. I submit that they are gone for good.

    I am guessing you are a Realtor judging by your detailed knowledge of Canadian real estate minutiae. That means you have a vested interest and cannot be impartial when it comes to your calling. You reel off regulation like it is scripture while forgetting it was primarily created to protect the banking sector, not home owners or buyers. The 5% down stipulation certainly will not help many if prices decline by 10% now will they. Underwater is still underwater and it just means we lost real wealth. Real money that we worked for and saved. We could only envy that Americans could buy into homes with nothing down at one point and get out with no personal savings lost or profit in earlier times by selling zero-down homes that miraculously generated equity almost overnight.

    To see where we are headed you need to look at some fundamentals of our economy. Can you be ignoring for example that roughly 85% of all Canadian trade is with the US? Or that Ontario which accounts for a significant portion of our manufacture trade is in recession while that Province posts deficits. I ask you to check for yourself the Conference Board of Canada’s estimates for the value of trade lost for each single cent our currency rises. We know this. Our currency is near parity for the first time in almost 30 years. We know our exporters have lost 10% on signed contracts in 6 months alone!That is mostly trade with our neighbors South of the border. If you have been watching the course of the recession down there and the mounting job losses and plant closures you would be irresponsible to suggest that is good news for Canada. Forget the daily drivel you are being spoon-fed by the media and think for yourself. Start looking at the real consequences we face with the US mired in a difficult ongoing recession.

    And please don’t imagine that a rising TSX is a sign of real recovery. That exchange is heavily weighted with Gold stock and other resource plays. It may remain a little more buoyant than other exchanges on the strength of Gold and Silver for now but don’t get too smug yet because it is looking more likely that a rocky ride is ahead than a moonshot.

    So are we an island up here where the normal rules of trade and finance don’t apply? I don’t think so.

    Quite the contrary actually. There is no other country in the world with more at stake and more dependent on a positive outcome for the US economy than we are. No country’s economy is more exposed to the US than Canada’s. We are their largest trading partner and they are ours. Combined, the value of all our trade makes us the largest trading bloc on the planet. So take a careful look at the facts down there and ask yourself about how strong our markets really are. The basics down South — a long line down-trend in real estate values, consumption in the dumps, retailers shuttering their stores across the nation, a real unemployment rate that is closer to 20% than 10%, record bankruptcies, commercial real estate in crisis and an extremely dismal long term outlook for the Greenback. Nothing could be worse for our economy.

    I am not sure what good news you are referring to. In British Columbia the forestry industry is at a near standstill due to lack of new home construction in the States. In Alberta literally dozens of Oil and Tar sands projects representing Billions in investment remain stalled or mothballed while the unemployment benefits of thousands of workers are running out. In my own backyard of Saskatchewan the Government here recently miscalculated potash revenues by two billion dollars — a stunning amount for the size of this Province that amounted to a 100% error when no potash was sold and the Chinese backed off on signing new contracts. Nobody saw that coming, that is for sure.

    And with Toronto homes selling for a factor greater than 7 times annual income and Vancouver’s at 10 times income you cannot possibly believe that is not bubble territory. Take a close look at who is buying and you will see it is mainly young people, young professionals who have been duped into believing that this is their last chance to get into the market before interest rates rise. It is a panic and that is a sure sign things will unwind. Look at who is selling too. It’s retirees who have seen it all before and want the hell out before it is too late. It is too late though.

    As far as Vancouver goes you can find the data yourself that clearly shows listings rising over the last few months while the ratio to sales are in decline. It is worth noting that one of the other big factors prompting Canadians to keep buying in this environment is that the GST (Goods and Services Tax) on new homes will soon rise by a percentage and the rules governing the amount of down payment and maximum length of amortization are changing. All of this has driven frenzied buying and no one in their right mind could doubt that when Toronto homes jump 10% in value in a single year that they are in one of the biggest bubbles of all. You might call that a “Hot” market but I see all the hallmarks of a disaster in the making. The writing is on the wall and we are about to hit that wall head on.

    But by far our biggest concern should be the health of the US economy. With nagging doubts about the future strength of the greenback it is certain that we will suffer economically here as our dollar rises above parity. Where will it end? A Canadian dollar at 2.00 perhaps…or three. You can call that crazy but we are pegged to the Greenback and our currency does appear to strengthen as the US dollar diminishes in strength. The prognosis for the US dollar is not good at all with current monolithic debt levels. So where is the good news? It’s terrific for tourists heading South to shop and visit I suppose but it spells disaster for our struggling manufacturing sector and resources such as lumber. Ontario’s current plight will lead to a very nasty reckoning for all this great country. We are no longer posting fat national surpluses my friend and the cash cows are thinning out as casualties to a faltering American economy.

    So yes, I stand by my comments. Real estate will crash here. Big time. I hear the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands already as the typical Canadian, a single paycheck away from a home foreclosure, blindly saving a meager 1% of income for old age and depending on the value of their homes to support them in old age finally wakes up and realizes that they could not read the signs of what is coming. That they blindly followed the same path of consumption hell, borrowing and credit card debt that is currently plaguing the US economy and that our fate really does rest on the actions taken or not taken that could lead to an eventual US recovery.

    So we are not special. We are not different in Canada. The same rules of economics function here as they do South of our borders. Trade matters. Our housing crisis is coming and we are merely a little behind schedule so pay attention or you will lose your shirt.

    Cam

  • Jonathan March 21, 2010, 1:22 am

    I had a discussion about housing prices with a friend about a year ago. He had commented that the houses in his area had fallen 10-15% and wanted to know who was making the money, since money just doesn’t “disappear”. I told him that money can “disapper”, its called deflation. Shorting stocks is a lot easier than shorting real estate, so not too many made money on the decrease in value…

  • Mike Eck March 20, 2010, 8:08 pm

    No one has explained how the money gets back out of the system when a loan is foreclosed. There is a good reason they have not, because it does not.

    Maybe it can be absorbed as interest on new loans eventually, but I really don’t think the bankers would let it all exit the system in that manner…their profits on newly created money are just too juicy to pass up.

    Mike

  • Dusty March 20, 2010, 6:36 pm

    Rick,
    Housing prices were extremely inflated to begin with. The drop in housing prices in the past 2 years is simply the price resetting to normal values. What appears to be deflationary in the past 2 years is merely the price resetting itself to the average long term average.

    The houses being sold were NEVER WORTH their face value. They were over-inflated just like tulip bulbs in 1637. It is the same mania that played out almost 400 years ago is playing out today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

    Dusty

    &&&&&

    This is not “housing prices correcting back to normal,” but rather a millennial implosion of spectacular excesses. I still expect a $10 million West Side NYC co-op to sell eventually for $250k. See the note on Templeton below. RA

  • bobtor March 20, 2010, 5:47 pm

    Mike: if you borrowed a dollar and bought a Snickers bar with it and ate it, and did not pay back the dollar, which the bank wrote off..could you please explain in a rational fashion how you “still have the dollar” even though it was written off? And how there is still a dollar of purchasing power floating around?

    Debt is not money..it is debt!!!

    You surely know where the byproducts or end result of that consumed candy bar end up. I propose to you that the money written off in the mortgage market has met the same fate.

    I too am a Canadian, though with significant vested interests in the US as my kids live and work there..

    Cameroni–read the business pages in more detail. The rising CAD has not impeded Canadian exports this go round. Companies here finally learned to make more with less (a lesson learned from the US) and improve productivity. Furthermore, the lending practices of the US housing and commercial real estate market are ILLEGAL in Canada. You must have at least 5% down to real cost (not appraised) for an insured mortgage, a rule that has been recently upped a bit. As well, you must also now meet income requirements for the posted 5 year fixed mortgage rate even if you opt to take the less expensive short term flex rate. As well, there are no “super loans” in Canada. If you wish to buy a 5 million dollar Toronto of Vancouver condo, there is no bank that will give you more than 50% financing on amounts over a million dollars or so. You must have equity. That is why there is no real estate crisis in Canada. And that is why there will not be. The system here, apart from charlatans who work outside of it, does not permit people to buy homes who have no income to pay for them and does not rely on the hope of increased prices to pay for them. In places like Winnipeg, you were traditionally happy to get what you paid when you sold a house 5 or 10 years later.

    For a non-insured conventional mortgage, you have to have typically 25% down, or more for 7 figure properties. The banks utilize these rules pretty strictly. Not so in the US. And there are no balloon mortgages up here from any conventional sources. Not permitted.

    You have to understand, Cameroni, that in the US people with 50k incomes were being funded with mortgage loans to buy 500k and 1MM dollar homes. You could readily buy a home for 750K on less than 100k family income and if you knew the “right” people you might be able to get a mortgage for 800k or more. Illegal to do this, either as mortgagee or mortgagor in Canada.

    People flocked to Alberta for oil jobs and prices went up, sometimes wildly. Oil jobs vanished with dropping prices and prices of homes dropped. A lot. That’s called supply and demand, not a bubble. While prices went up in Alberta they dropped in other locations. While they dropped in Alberta, they went up in St. Johns as oil jobs became available there. Toronto prices dropped last year as they did everywhere as money available for financing vanished due to the evaporation of capital that some contributors here (right, Mike?) say never happened. The printing of more fiat money has restored ‘capital’ and lending is occurring again on more stringent terms (in Canada) and with 50,000+ people per year still streaming into the Toronto area, they all have to live somewhere. So the real estate market has picked up. Again, supply and demand. Unemployment here is not nearly as bad as the US. More people have jobs and income and can afford to pay for a home or apartment. And up here, you can’t rent that foreclosed 500k home for $1200 a month…it would be over $5000 a month. Thus ownership at the current low mortgage rates is more attractive than renting. It can fairly be said that in the US, where people had 100% or more mortgages on their homes, they never owned them and always just rented them. Not so up here where equity and family income were needed. That is not to say that a dropping market up here won’t wipe out a person;s equity in their home. It has happened before and will happen again, but that is not the malady that affects the US real estate market.

    So, there will not be a housing crisis in Canada to the extent of the US crisis. Not in 2 years or 5 because the fundamental causes do not exist in Canada. Our banks are not permitted to operate the way US banks did nor are mortgage brokers (who are required to be licensed). There are crooks everywhere and people who succumb to them, either conspiratorially or innocently. Fortunately, the bankers themselves are not the crooks in Canada as they clearly were in the US. I am fundamentally somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun. But if I ran the US, I would have taken every bonus claimed by every US banker and broker, seized the money and their property for full value and thrown them all on the street (not in jail, where the government would have to house and feed them, but on the street so they would have to fend for themselves) and distribute the proceeds among the innocent people (not the co-conspirators) whom they ripped off and whose lives they ruined.

  • Mike Eck March 20, 2010, 4:26 am

    Good points Rick,

    However, writing the loans off does not take the “money” out of existence…someone still has it in their hot hands ready to spend…or granted, maybe pay off their debts which would extinguish some money, but not the mortgage money.

    If a bank loans me a dollar and I decide to not pay them back…they may indeed write it off as a lost cause, but I still have the dollar to do with as I please. Therefore, the loan may be paid by the lender, but just because they wrote it off does not make it go away…it is still out there awaiting a chance to drive up prices.

    What is the par value of worthless paper? Yes, zero, but that “money” will stay out there until it is is repaid or until fiat dies…most will not be repaid, on that we can agree.

    Mike
    “We have suffered more from this cause [paper money] than from every other cause or calamity. It has killed more men, pervaded and corrupted the choicest interests of our country more, and done more injustice than even the arms and artifices of our enemy.” Daniel Webster

    &&&&&&

    I rest my case on what I have written above. RA

  • cameroni March 20, 2010, 3:32 am

    Geez S.Aprov! Your flippant arrogance makes me embarrassed to be a Canadian. So who put a gun to your head and made you borrow and spend beyond your means? Now you need a scapegoat to pick up the pieces through taxes and no sympathy for them (eh)? History has already shown though that your sorry attitude is the one that prevails in really tough times. Will it be any wonder that the wealthy will respond by tightening the screws on labor and job creation once the chips are really down?

    You should probably start by getting your own house in order. The Canadian real estate bubble is near ready to implode and the free ride is almost over up here. We seem to be behind the US by more that 2 years but know from history that what transpires South of the border eventually reaches the “Great White North”. Often with more serious consequences. Cracks are already appearing in the real estate picture of Vancouver, Calgary, the Island and the Okanagan. Toronto’s mania is at a fever pitch and I will be surprised if it has not all hit the fan by this summer. The high Canadian dollar is driving our export markets into the gutter and balanced budgets are certainly a thing of the past for a good long time. Will the rich save us or should we not now take some personal responsibility for our lack of savings and blind faith in the great big real estate bank in the sky?

    On a different subject. For those who speculate on pulse crops, grains etcetera, Environment Canada has just confirmed that this winter has been the driest and hottest on the western prairies in all of its recorded history, suggesting a very worrisome start to the crop season. We can’t read the future of course but it is worth recalling that the last Great Depression was kicked off by a devastating dry period we all know of as “the Dirty Thirties”.

    Could it be happening again? I sure hope not. I kind of like it out here.

  • Mike Eck March 20, 2010, 3:00 am

    You are missing the point bobtor,

    The money did not exist before I bought the house for 1.3 million and that money will stay in the economy until I pay the loan off. Okay, if I put $300,000 down, that was not new money, but the other 1 mil was new. If I do not pay the loan off, the money is still out there. The bank takes the house from me and sells it to you for $650,000 and like magic yet another half mil is created and is now out there in the economy. So, we now have a house that was, maybe, worth $500,000 that has in fact put a grand total of about 1.5 mil into the economy that is destined to stay out there doing whatever fiat does until the loan is paid off or the death of fiat…in the near future.

    This too is so simple it repels the mind, but it cannot be denied…the only way debt money is extinguished is when a loan is paid off. Otherwise, those who receive it pass it to others who are still using it and passing it on for whatever they chose to purchase.

    Again, the reason I’m having so much trouble with my essay is because the concept is so simple it repels the mind. Just for the record, my mentor has been Bob Livingston who got it from Merrill Jenkins.

    It really is not complicated, it is the conveyance of the message that is so difficult because it goes so much against what everyone knows…including me until rather recently.

    Mike
    “What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know, it’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain

    &&&&&&&

    If it’s so simple, then why do you keep missing the point? Your mental “money” is intact — though effectively locked up by deflationary mindset — only if you believe that all of the worthless mortgage paper being warehoused by the Fed eventually will return to par. We deflationists are saying, simply, that it’s time to write it off. (Thus would the loans be “paid” — in full — by lenders.)

    In the end, the bad mortgages on the Fed’s books may never sell for more than 10 cents on the dollar. Compounding deflationary drag as we race toward the endgame is the fact that, downstream of the original loans, the homes used as collateral to create a daisy chain of derivatives were effectively hocked for far more than their original value. That’s how the feather merchants were able to leverage real estate to create a financial edifice nominally valued at ten times what the world produces in actual goods and services. RA

  • ben March 20, 2010, 12:23 am

    Ok Bobtor…Here’s another example…A man with a wife and two kids making 100k bought a million dollar house in 2007. He was expecting to get a raise the following year that never materialized becuase of the economic downturn. He has 100k in equity, paying 4k a month for his mortgage. The house is eating up more than half his after-tax income, leaving him falling further and further in credit card debt just to pay for the essentials.

    It is now 2010…his million dollar house is now worth $700,000…he realizes he didn’t really need such a large house…and since he can rent a place that meets his needs for $1200 a month…he decides to turn over the keys, give up on his non-recourse mortgage, and rent a home.

    Now he has another $3000 a month in disposable income….money that is used to buy a car, furniture, toys for the kids, prada bags for the wife, etc. The bank…well they weren’t spending the money on anything anyway, and in any case gets the FED to print up more money for them whenever they need it. The situation is inflationary for all items… but houses.

    If in the same example the mortgage was recourse and the guy declared bankruptcy to discharge the mortgage and credit card debt, the upshot would be the same. He’d have more disposable income. That’s how a foreclosure/short sale can be inflationary.

    &&&&&&&

    Let’s exit Econ 101 fantasyland for a moment and consider what will happen in the real world. The fallacy here is that grocery store inflation will more than offset the deflationary drag of the only item that has not gone up in price, the house. In fact, the liquidation of the home is going to crush the value of every other home in the cul-de-sac. Repeat this in tens of thousands of cul-de-sacs across the nation, as is actually occurring, and then tell me who the winners are and where inflation will come from. RA

  • hawaiilaw March 19, 2010, 10:51 pm

    Recent example: During the Japan Bubble collapse, Tokyo real estate declined 70 – 80%. NEVER came back. Hawaii mirrored the Japan economy. Example – a beachfront property in Waikiki went for $21M during the Bubble; was bought 8 yrs ago for $1.2, and probably appraises at $5M today. It took Hawaii 11-12 yrs to recover from the Bubble, so this one will NOT be less severe, imo.
    So I have to agree w/Rick on this one. Only concern is what happens to gold? Going w/the bullish scenario so far.

  • bobtor March 19, 2010, 10:00 pm

    OK Crisis maven…..you have funded a one million dollar first mortgage at say 7% on a property that sold for 1.3 million dollars a few years back. You thought you were pretty secure and pretty smart, as there was 300k of buyer equity in the deal.

    The mortgage is due this month and the house that sold for 1.3 mil now can’t be sold at all…maybe it’s in a previously wealthy suburb of Detroit or outside Las Vegas or some other previously healthy but now really sick market. The home owner is in essence bankrupt and has no assets to pay off the house or anything else. He lost his job and ate up his savings making payments on your mortgage for the past nine months. So you foreclose on it after a lengthy and expensive legal morass, or perhaps to save you money and aggravation you agree that he kindly sends you the deed and the keys and the house is yours.

    You put it up for sale and get offers of 650K , or maybe even 700K for it. Instead, you can sit with it, pay the taxes of 15-20k or more a year and the insurance and utilities and such, thereby increasing your out-of-pocket “investment” on a daily basis. So, tiring of throwing good money after bad you negotiate a net price of 700 k and move on.

    Gee….you started out with one million bucks in hard cash. Please explain to a simple mind like mine how that 300k of “money” that you invested is not gone..poof! Evaporated into thin air!! Let’s see you go and buy one million dollars of gold with your 700k and prove to me that the money, i.e. the capital, has not been destroyed. Your ethereal philosophical argument is mere doggerel drivel, my friend.

    The market crash erased over 50 trillion dollars of capital ,r “money” around the world. The real estate crash adds more to that. That capital is gone and has been only partially replaced with the paper coming off the Fed’s printing presses. Read something about the “velocity of money” to understand why hyperinflation is not yet here, but surely will be. Also, listen carefully to RA when he states that deflation increases the burden of debt, while inflation eases it. Know anyone who is having an easier time than a couple of years ago carrying their debts? I doubt it, unless they have reduced them significantly.

    &&&&&&&

    Great post, Dr. Bob! Thanks for spelling it out more clearly than I could have. RA

  • Mike Eck March 19, 2010, 9:33 pm

    Read the essay by Crisismavin…the money that was created when the house was bought is still out there after foreclosure. In fact the only way it can come out of the system is by the mortgage being paid off, which it is not when the loan is foreclosed.

    I know exactly what money is and therefore often offer silver as payment. I’m in the process of writing an essay that explains why the federal government can never default on it’s debt because it has no debt. They can go bankrupt again and many would say, and I would not disagree, that they never came out of the last bankruptcy.

    The concept of no debt is so simple that, as the saying goes “it repels the mind.” Therein lies the reason I’m having trouble making it understandable.

    The short version is that the contracts our government has, i.e. bonds, bills, notes, etc. are dollar based and dollars are nothing more than a concept now-a-days. The so called debt can be paid with a few keystrokes. If I had the legal ability to create dollars at will, would it be logical for me to be concerned if I had something called a debt of, oh say, 10 trillion of those dollars. I think not.

    The fact that there is no debt really changes nothing regarding the pending death of fiat money…it’s just another part of the deception.

    Mike
    “In America half the population doesn’t read the paper. Clearly, they are the intelligent half.” Gore Vidal

    “If you don’t read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed.” –Mark Twain

  • S. Aprov March 19, 2010, 9:03 pm

    So the wealthy will have to pay for the middle class, eh (Notice the “eh” … I’m a Canadian!)? Well, “boo-hoo”!
    Aren’t the wealthy the ones who profited from a society they encouraged to embrace debt? Didn’t the wealthy wax fat on the proligacy of the middle class?
    Regards

  • Bam_Man March 19, 2010, 8:05 pm

    It seems that CrisisMaven and Chris Eck don’t really understand what “money” is.

    Anyone that says “money is not destroyed when a loan is foreclosed” clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about “money”.

    BANK CAPITAL is destroyed when loan principal is written off or forgiven. BANK CAPITAL used to be “money”, but relinquished its status as “money” so as to facilitate additional “money” creation in the form of credit.

    BANK CAPITAL that has been destroyed generally must be replaced, and this requires a corresponding amount of “money”.

    &&&&&

    Thank you, Mr. Bam-Man! RA

  • Steve March 19, 2010, 7:40 pm

    The problem with the housing always goes down argument is the math. You say that we’re roughly half way to your 70% decline as if your prediction will be fullfilled just around the corner. But basically this is all that’s happened: that million dollar at the peak house has declined to $700K. To get to your $300K predicition, it has to decline another 57%. By my guestimate, that’s knocking back to the 1980’s levels, which in real terms would represent serious hyperdeflation which to my knowledge has never been seen before.

    &&&&&&

    You should team up with Crisismaven and Eck and dive into ski condos — presumably a great investment for deflation’s skeptics. But before you do, check out Rich Cash’s note on Templeton, who said asset bubbles always correct the amount they were financed. If so, because home prices will be established at the margin, my prediction of a 70% collapse may prove to have been too sunny. RA

  • jon March 19, 2010, 7:36 pm

    On a more important note, it’s a powder day Rick.

    &&&&&

    If you can get to Breckenridge, it is. RA

  • Mike Eck March 19, 2010, 7:07 pm

    Rick,

    If you want to call falling prices deflation, I will not argue with you as that is the bull crap that lamestream media sell everyday all day. However, you cannot be intellectually honest and claim that foreclosures destroy money.

    I do plan to buy a winter home. Hopefully, after prices fall another 30% or so. 😉

    &&&&&&

    I don’t care about inflationists’ “money,” the quantity of which is irrelevant, unmeasurable and ultimately unknowable. Our ability to create practically unlimited quantities of “money” on a given day derives purely from the public’s radically delusional state of mind concerning free lunch. Under the circumstances, why even bother to consider “money”?

    As for deflation, think of it simply as an increase in the real burden of debt and you will be 95% of the way toward understanding what is going on.

    It makes my head spin to consider your statement that foreclosures don’t destroy “money.” If you can figure out how to get the quotes off the word “money,” then I’ll buy your argument. And while you’re at it, try explaining why $14Tr of stimulus, bailouts and guarantees haven’t produced the rip-roaring inflation that virtually every monetarist/economist/iTulip-ist/inflationist would have predicted two years ago (as indeed they did). What it has in fact produced is a blip in grocery prices. (And that, incidentally, is about to be cured by Wal-Mart’s just announced price war on groceries.) RA

  • jon March 19, 2010, 6:53 pm

    Anyone with a mortgage never really owned their home anyway, the banks and the government owned it. Turns out it really was just an illusion.

  • JohnJay March 19, 2010, 6:07 pm

    Hard to believe that in the current economic mess, Obama et al are once again pushing for Immigraton Reform! They want to insure a constant flow of poverty stricken low skill workers! Great! Amnesty they say will be for 10 million that will turn into 30 million. Great! A 2000 page Health Reform bill writen by lobbyists that no one has read. Great! The Federal government assumes all the bad Freddie/Faannie paper. Great! It’s like a bad movie! State nullification via the 10th Amendment is our last, best hope. It seems to be spreading rapidly. It’s about time.

  • Mike Eck March 19, 2010, 5:28 pm

    The crisismaven takes on the deflationist…I find no fallacy with his arguments. The point that money is not destroyed when a loan is foreclosed, when stated as clearly as it is in the below post, cannot be argued.
    http://crisismaven.wordpress.com/2010/03/18/economic-fallacy-iii-looming-deflation/

    &&&&&&

    You and the Crisismaven ought to pool your funds, then, and bet it all on real estate. RA

  • Rich March 19, 2010, 4:32 pm

    Aloha Rick et al
    Getting tougher to spend what we don’t have.
    Eventually belief in government guarantees goes.
    Had to look up BF’s 4th Rule even though read or heard him almost every market day for most of a decade:
    “Exponential rapidly rising or falling markets usually go further than you think, but they do not correct by going sideways.”
    And what about his other rules? One with interest is:
    “The public buys the most at the top and the least at the bottom.”
    Are we to assume with the current low volume and absence of public in this rally or economy, despite widespread media hype of a recovery in autos, homes and stocks, we are at the bottom?
    Think not.
    One of Farrell’s corollaries was summarized by his article, ‘Weep Not for the Individual Investor.’ Decades of account studies at Merrill found margin accounts were the wrong-way corrigans, while cash buyers bought low and sold high. WEB said similar re keeping $10 B of cash on hand always to not rely on the kindness of strangers.
    Margin calls come at the worst times and affect all assets bought with credit.
    Now credit is declining and foreclosing and we may not have seen the half of it.
    This brings to mind Sir John Templeton’s observation assets correct the amount they were financed. Thus 125% GMAC Diotech loan to value ratios suggest we may in fact be a long way from “the bottom.”
    Belief in government borrowing, spending and taxing usury to prevent the natural order of things may be right up there with the tooth fairy.
    Another of Farrell’s rules is:
    Bear markets have three stages — sharp down, reflexive rebound and a drawn-out fundamental downtrend.
    We appear to be finishing the reflexive rebound…
    Regards all*Rich

  • Mike Eck March 19, 2010, 3:14 pm

    If I’m reading this right, the cash payments and lack of a 1099 are recent additions to the short sell rules vs. those that were in place a few months ago. If so I can see how that would put more houses on the market, but don’t really see how it can create buyers unless the buyers will just move back into a similar house with a smaller mortgage payment.

    This is merely shell game supported by created money that will make the economy look better to anyone not looking behind the curtain. I really don’t see a bottom as possible unless jobs recover. Maybe the next program will be something like government creating fiat to pay the mortgage of everyone who can not find a job. The Mighty Mogambo Guru is right, “We are Fricking Doomed.”

  • BDTR March 19, 2010, 1:08 am

    This program is as good a workout for both lender and borrower, as the inventory of foreclosed properties reaches blighting levels for many neighbourhoods, as one might hope for. In the ensuing second run on both residential and commercial properties beginning this year, further governmental program accommodations to counterparties should become ever expansive to spare pointless ruin and infrastructure degradation.

    Amidst an environment of greedfull acts, political duplicity, corruption and manipulation emerges, occasionally, a reasonable solution to a real problem.

    God bless us, everyone.

  • CrisisMaven March 19, 2010, 12:38 am

    This “fear of deflation” is largely nonsensical. Deflation does not keep people from spending – they always spend what’s necessary. And money NOT “spent” is then saved which means it is credit to someone who invests it for capital goods etc. thus it is again being spent, only not for consumption. Money never lies completely idle to any extent whether there’s inflation, deflation, stability or a solar eclipse. For deflation to seriously happen, not only the current extreme credit expansion by the central banks and states (through “quantitative easing”, stimulus packages, monetising and then spending national debt etc.) but also the money that was released into the economy PRIOR to the collapse would have to be “mopped up” again. This is nowhere to be seen nor would it be technically possible (confiscation aside) so we will rather see inflation than deflation.

    ******

    So then, let’s see if I understand you correctly, Crisis”Maven”: Home prices haven’t actually deflated, and the trillions of dollars worth of bank-system paper being warehoused by the Federal Reserve is worth face value, right? RA