To Believe in the Bull Is to Buy into an Epic Fraud

We took a deeply skeptical view here yesterday of the buying frenzy that has pushed stocks sharply higher since early July. Not surprisingly, some market observers think the rally is the real McCoy – an entirely normal upthrust in an ongoing bull market. “The only question is, when will you admit you’re wrong?” asked a contributor, Keith P., in the Rick’s Picks forum. “[At Dow 12000? 14000? 18000?  I’m just wondering. Will you be like the rest and say everyone else is wrong the whole way up — or at some point will you say, yes, I was wrong? I’m not bashing you at all,” he continued. “You kept us in many long positions the whole way up. You’ve done a great job. I’m just saying I expect new all-time highs in the market within a year or two. There will be no crash, no depression. We are not on a gold standard like in the 1930s.”

Impossible?  Improbable?  Inevitable?

While we’re genuinely pleased to hear that Keith evidently has made hay taking our sometimes bullish advice, we couldn’t disagree with him more about the nature of the rallies; for they are a fraud, a key piece of the epic deception that would have us believe it is possible to extricate ourselves from a black hole of debt by taking on massive new quantities of…debt.  “Ultimately, America faces certain bankruptcy,” we replied. “The Federal Government’s ability to create money from thin air may obscure this fact for yet a little while longer, but [we] seriously doubt that it will bring us new all-time highs in the stock market — or even a fleeting instant of real prosperity.”

Financial Sociopaths

Many who responded to Keith’s post evidently share our pessimism, but there was one reply in particular, from “Red Will,” that we would like to share with you. He write as follows: “…Keith’s comments and many like them come off as ‘punk-ish’ to me. The ’90’s bull market was largely based upon fraud. This past decade’s bull market was nearly entirely based upon fraud. There is deterioration and disintegration all around us by nearly every measure, and yet the Manipulation Cartel still has a strong ‘pimp hand’ at the moment. Again, if you want to argue that yet another round of the timeless shell game will be perpetrated and that we will see new highs as a result of their Herculean efforts in the name of fraud, then I can buy that and trade it accordingly. I don’t rule that out, not in the least. Nearly two decades of fraud-watching have taught me to be prepared to be astonished by the next offering of BS that these financial sociopaths will bring forth. But please don’t characterize it, as Keith seems to, in a way that makes it seem like we’re on the road to a standard bull market that’s based upon your organically produced, garden-variety macro expansion cycle.

“That’s what his ‘minimalist’ commentary implies to me, and maybe that’s from reading so many posts like his all over the Internet for over a decade. The notion that the market ‘always knows’ [what lies ahead] should be put to bed at this point. I told people to get out of Tech in December 1999. I started to buy the metals producers in 2004. I also told them to not buy into the housing bubble [from] 2005 onward. I also told them in the summer of 2007 to ‘collar’ their portfolios, at the very least. I’m a small-timer with limited resources. I don’t claim to be a sage. I don’t have a research team and quant teams, and I certainly don’t have access to insider scuttlebutt. I’m the father of four young ones and thus have only limited time. How is it that I could see imminent danger time and time again and that Wall Street, their financial media, and the enabler/co-conspirators in D.C. were explaining it all away? I’ve seen round after round of deceived clowns pointing to indexes that were being manipulated higher on fraud, and they all think that they will get out in time. Needless to say, they rarely want to discuss the market after ‘distribution and markdown’ have occurred. Keith is asking Rick to admit that he’s ‘wrong’ because the Cartel momentarily has the upper hand. At best this ranks [Keith] as a lazy commentator in my book.

In the Matrix

“If it weren’t for all [of the factors] that I enumerated and much, much more in my previous comments, the indices could/would(?) likely be less than half of what they are right now. Remove the FED from buying debt from…well, the FED, and where would things be right now? Price Keith’s beloved Dow [Industrials] in something besides our currency that suffers from relentless and severe ‘domestic abuse,’ and tell me how well ‘investors’ have fared over the last decade. So with that I’ll bring things to a conclusion by reminding Keith and his merry band of ‘buy-and-hold-ers’ that they need to raise their hands for two toasts when ‘the Dow’…vaults to new ‘highs.’ First off, they’ll be nominal. But more importantly, Keith and friends will also be celebrating the triumph of the Manipulation Cartel and the perpetuation of their Matrix. Here’s to Keith and his permabull brethren! Brothers! May they forever be comfortably numb.”

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  • flash August 7, 2010, 10:09 am

    the way i have preserved money is to follow the global macromaven, felix Zulag who i think is somewhat in the guru categlry as John Templeton. where i disagree- Zulaf says markets today arehighly correlated-he predicts a dow of 500. he has ben right on so many occassions. any reader can google in Felix Zulaf and listen to his world view with barry Ritzholtz on the BIG Picture. He knows the world. He do not provide an american perspective. NOw fortue says gobal umemployment will be widespread. in Africa it is over 30 per cent- spain 2o per cent usa 9.5. i think we have tol ive with global unemployment for a decade-what are we told not to buy treasuries. treasuries maybe the biggest gainers in the next few years. who wants garbage treasuries. None. Hey netfilx and priceline look like hot stocks if you believe wiliam o’Neilll but like they are hot they can get cold quickly. I see very little date that tells me the stock markets is not a screaming buy. analysts got BP at 57. thailand, Indonesia, egypt look pretty god. Maybe they can buc k Zulaf’s predictions. He is very risk averse. So one might have to play two sides of the market. If every comapny is putting out an Alerian ETF, do you want to be in mlp’s even if they have outperformed the s&P 4 to 1 over the last 15 years. spanish home prices have to deflate. the crummy CD’s maybe a good buy for the next 3 years. Look you can go nutty trying to figure it out. somone who is computer literate should get FElix Zulaf on Facebook and i am surein 6 months, he would have 1 million friends- rohmer just quit . the GOP has no ideas. we need another super stimulus. If we do not get it, Zulaf once again will proably prove right. 3 outof 4 money mangers say deflation is out of the question- what if it comes? look the real story may be the Euro-for america to recover the dollar has to sink sink sink so we can create manufacturing jobs-but because of the wonderful net and outsourcing, we can live with 10 per cent unemploymjent for a decade also voice recognition. since the stock market is a game, I think the best place to put your money is in treasuries, in Africa, and in companies like Northern Trust or Tr price . asset gatherers-but everyone should google in Felix zulaf on the big Picture with barry Ritzholz-

  • F. Beard July 16, 2010, 1:16 am

    You are arguing perpetual motion/cold fusion, or I’d spend more time crafting a rebuttal. RA

    If you did refute it, you would be the first and I have posted this solution widely. In fact, at one time you seem to think it’s plausible.

    The only objection I’ve heard is hyper-inflation risk which could be eliminated by leverage restrictions on the banks.

  • Jeff Lane July 15, 2010, 11:39 pm

    No one can truly know the future ? Yes, but I predict a Greater Depression ahead. The market ? Manipulated as hell, but it’s the only thing the powers that be can point to as “economic encouragement” that things are’nt so bad. Without this 75% rise off the bottom, the consumer would have rolled over dead long ago. Market up or down ? Both. We will see a major fall before “they” decide to finally throw everything, including the kitchen sink at it…..Then, Keith, you will see your 14,000 and more as we melt into one last bubble…Too bad your purchasing power will make it fell like 5000. jmho

  • keith July 15, 2010, 7:17 pm

    I think the issue at hand is can anyone really predict the future? The crisis that we are in will be unlike any in the past. You can’t possibly convince me to use a model like Weimar Germany (hyper-inflation) or the Great Depression (hyper-deflation). We live in a different world today and are about to write another chapter in history.

    How many of you can boast about loading up on gold and silver in the mid 90’s like I did? I thought we were going to collapse a decade ago. All the signs were there no less then they are today. Yet, here we are. You say, ya but now we are 56 trillion in debt! My answer is, so what. It’s just a number. Maybe it will go to 156 trillion. People had a heart attack the first time we reached a $1 billion deficit. The end was imminent, but now we are at 1 trillion. My, my, who ever would have thunk that??? Not any of you that’s for damn sure!!!!!!!

    &&&&&

    $56 trillion of debt is not “just a number” — it (or whatever level of debt currently exists) is manifestly the threshold at which the economy has begun to deflate toward ruin. Your number is w-a-a-ay low, by the way. Government debt and liabilities alone are at least $130 trillion. Much of that stems from promised pensions and health care — and there is no getting around the implication that many would-be recipients are going to be VERY disappointed. In this case, “disappointment” equates directly to the steep fall in the standard of living that lies ahead for America. This decline is pernicious and sometimes not even explicitly recognized — as in the case of air travel. You can still fly to LaGuardia for $250, but the “how” (i.e., the amenities) has come more and more to resemble Third World travel. RA

    • Benjamin July 15, 2010, 7:58 pm

      “People had a heart attack the first time we reached a $1 billion deficit. The end was imminent, but now we are at 1 trillion. My, my, who ever would have thunk that??? Not any of you that’s for damn sure!!!!!!!”

      That’s a lot of exclamation points, considering we’re just talking about a number. I mean, why should any of us have thought anything if it’s just a number? The other side of the question is, why pat yourself on the back over having predicted yet another ho-hum deficit(!!!!!!!)?

      A brief Freudian slip of the tongue or a french kiss with it? I’ll let the other readers decide… 🙂

  • cameroni July 15, 2010, 6:44 pm

    With so much constant bad news it really is a little perplexing that markets keep rising. I have to agree with others who suspect some artificial boost is goosing stocks. But hey, there are politics at play here too and the stock markets really are the score card representing how investors feel about the economy. It’s value is the last best hope and really all that remains to foster the feeling amongst the general public that all is OK in the world.

    Everything is not Ok though and we all know it. When the real correction comes there will be nothing left to hang our hat of hope on that the “great recession” is over. And I think that is why no efforts are being spared by the guys behind the curtain to keep stocks bouyant despite near record bearishness.

    When the markets finally do come down, all confidence in the economy will be ruined along with the sagging numbers and the game will be over. Maybe the market manipulation is actually saving our sorry butts.

  • Rich July 15, 2010, 6:01 pm

    2 PM Passage of FinReg today, written by upside down investment banks disguised as commercial banks, may have an interesting deleterious market effect if the bears are back in charge as Richard Russell asserted…

    &&&&&&

    …and we anxiously await whichever side of the argument it is that Richard’s Russell is asserting *next* week. Am I imagining it, or has he become a Dow Theory day trader? RA

  • Rich July 15, 2010, 5:49 pm

    Looks like Mr Market may be having the best last word on this discussion today – DOWN, with futures below cash leading the way.
    Something I do not understand is how dollars made scarcer by bailouts, defaults and deflation can drive commodities, gold, real estate, stocks or wages higher except for government engineered scarcities?
    Government tried since 2000 to inflate its way out of the inevitable generational depression Jubilee winter season, and the result was real estate, stocks and living standards fell up to -86% so far in real terms disguised by government bank fiat illusions.
    We face a trillion dollar tax hike when W cuts expire, trillion dollar 0Care deficits as far as the eye can see, FinReg written by the FinReg industry, $105 trillion in unfunded government agency FDIC, FHA, FNM, FRM, PBGC, SIPC, Soc Sec Trust mandates, $215 in upside down unsecured US Bank Derivatives about to be marked to market, $615 Trillion in Global Derivatives defaulting, so where exactly is the upside in this financial black hole?
    Could someone puhlease explain how contracting money supplies translate into higher prices for commodities, gold, real estate, stocks, or anything other than government distortions of the economy like energy, food, healthcare and insurance?
    The Gulf Explosion may cost more than ten Katrinas.
    Rather than celebrating the annual or generational low DC Gulf Photo Op Glee Club, how about asking the right question:
    Have we seen annual or generational highs?
    Meanwhile, AAPL<280, GS<200 or Gold<$1266 may provide some profitable reality shock therapy…

  • fallingman July 15, 2010, 5:41 pm

    Red Will…Beautifully said. Thanks.

    AND, I understand from Keith’s clarification where he’s coming from. That’s essentially the Marc Faber position taken to the extreme…not just expecting the market to hold up, but expecting actual and large gains…at least nominal gains following a monetary booster rocket being launched. I get that.

    I suspect it couldn’t happen before there was a real catalyst to pump new money like crazy, like say, uh, a stock market tumble or another credit revulsion freeze up, but who knows?

    My suggestion would be that it might be better to proffer what you think might be possible outcomes rather than issue provocative challenges. because, you know what? No one knows ANYTHING for sure. When you think you do, that’s when you tend to get frozen into positions that are going the “wrong way” from the way they “should” be going and you lose a lot of money.

    • Rich July 15, 2010, 6:03 pm

      Excellent observation FM…

  • Larry July 15, 2010, 4:29 pm

    donniemac said:

    “PS IMHO, no nation has truly used Keynesian economics correctly to manage their economy. And I believe that properly applied Keynesian policy will work to both stimulate a period of retraction and to cool off, and thus extend, periods of expansion.”

    And after nearly a century of Applied Keynesian Economics 101, it is obvious that no nation ever will.

    • FranSix July 15, 2010, 5:00 pm

      Keynes was a man, and only lived so long.

  • PhotoRadarScam July 15, 2010, 4:19 pm

    The only reason for the market to continue on to new highs is continued dollar devaluation. Look at Zimbabwe – their stock market soared as the their dollar tumbled. So calling for a soaring stock market doesn’t have to mean that companies will be doing well.

    The timing of the call is more important, as I feel that this scenario is possible some day, I just have no idea on the timing of it all.

  • DG July 15, 2010, 3:42 pm

    I read the comments form yesterday and was struck by the nonsense of a comment stating that there was no fraud. Seriously? The real estate boom was not fraudulent when it is documented that there were fraudulent loans creating fraudulent buyers offering fraudulent prices? Doesn’t that indicate fraudulent price discovery? Isn’t the RE collapse documenting this? ( over 7 million homes in some state of “off the market, yet forsale” -price discovery?) The credit crisis duct tape repair job is not fraudulent? – when you take from taxpayers to “kinda make whole” the same buyers who created the aforementioned fraud? Does the bottomless pit of Fannie Mae seem a bit odd? It seems like a house on fire and they just keep coming with fresh wood from the mill to pile on and destroy more capital. Public pensions? How can someone who contributes 8% of 30 yrs of 50k income average (120k total) realistically expect that they can spend the following 30 years extracting 80k a year? These are better returns than Madoff offered. (Don’t tweak me on my numbers – they are close enough, many are far worse) Not at all possible. (yet penisoners somehow think this is more “real” than Social Security) It is fraud from the beginning, just not stated. Social Security never penciled, which is why it rose from a 1% tax to 15% over 70 years. And it still doesn’t pencil. We could continue for quite a while here (medicare, med part D, for example)….the numbers are in the significant fraction of a Quadrillion.
    To state that PE’s are healthy is silly. That is what Bernanke said over and over about housing 2005-7. Youtube it and imagine him in a dunce cap. Sure, there were numbers that supported his thesis, but the numbers were based on fraud, which makes the entire argument fraudulent.
    The dollar is a debt instrument which supports all of these frauds. Either the the frauds all get called out and they collapse or the dollar does it for them. Either way, it is going to be horrible for us Americans. Dow 15k? In what currency and how many barrels of oil will that buy? It simply cannot pencil without a huge haircut in currency devaluation.
    I think the hardest part for all of us is accepting the timing of this slow motion crisis. History shows that these events take decades to build up and go on long enough for the naysayers to be pronounced wrong because their forecasts of doom have been disproven by time….and then, they are right in a blink. Either you were on the right side, or not, with very little, if any time to change. We’ve been warned. HFT has shown us how much time you will have via the “flash crash”. Nuts.

    • gary leibowitz July 15, 2010, 6:10 pm

      To assume fraud you must then conclude that P/E rations were also fraudulent. Qaurterly earnings and every single government data point.

      You can’t have fraud perpetrated on the public without any ramifications. The stock market is the great equalizer. If manipulation was done on the dollar, real estate, commodities, inflation, jobs, etc…
      then you must also conclude that earnings figures are manipulated as well. If true then why worry. The market will always go up and we will never fall into a recession/depression again.

      Do you really believe a companies earnings can be hidden forever?

      You can’t have a fraud go on for decades without serious ramifications that can not be covered up. Impossible. That is one reason crashes occur. Like any ponzi scheme the longer it goes on the worse the end result.

      So instead of worrying about fraud you should be wondering when this ponzi scheme is revealed.

      &&&&&&&

      PE multiples are valueless for purposes of predicting markets or even rationalizing them. There are time when a market multiple of 22 is extremely high, and times when it is just about right. The same could be said of a multiple of 10, which some might argue would represent insane overvaluation right now. RA

  • storfisk July 15, 2010, 3:12 pm

    I am absolutely astounded. Keith has invented an economic “perpetual motion machine”. How clever of him.

  • Robert July 15, 2010, 1:48 pm

    I have reading Ricks comments on MKTS for only about a year. He’s good no doubt , but I too wanted to comment on recent rallies and the “real or not” idea. I dont even think the rally from march 2009 to date was “REAL”, but it was worth being in for sure. The question is ..is it DONE yet? I dont belive the economy is ‘fixed’ either, but it wasnt fixed march 2009 either , yet we made 400% or more off the bottom. My question to RICK or anyone when quantitive easing is abused and $$ is produced from thin air and floods the market is this…what about all the money that is mysteriously swallowed up in the markets?? Sure money was injected into and flooded the mkts, but what about all the $$ Fannie lost and Freddie Mae lost and Lehman Bros?? MOnet is flooded in by govts and everyone says theres too much money, so we get inflation…but what about all the money still evaporating?? does it balance out? Lastly (mkt commentary) its time for a pullback soon..just watch the volume back dwn , if it lands lightly on support levels or fib retracement #’s , but and ride. Trade this MKT, because the bottom of recent april pullback cant be called permanant yet, but can be traded , as you know 🙂

  • Avocado July 15, 2010, 1:26 pm

    I wonder if Keith has been getting emails from John Lansing of Trending123? John looks for a dramatic crash this year to 8600 followed by a rapid bull market to 14,000. Six to nine months.

    I quote:

    “This correction will shake out the dumb money yet again. And most investors will completely miss out on the mother of all bull markets, as the Dow climbs to new all-time highs in the next 6-9 months!”

    So who are we to believe? I think we are in a depression, but different than the last one. I don’t see how the market can roar back up to 14,000 with all the pessimism the public is displaying, never mind stock investors. I do see this current rally going higher perhaps until the end of the month, but eventually all the problems have to catch up with us and drive the market back down. Way down.

    Andy

  • Ledbedder July 15, 2010, 1:17 pm

    I will calm all of your fears. Read it, learn it, live it: 38.2%, 50%, 61.8% (and to a lesser degree) 78.6%, 87.5%. 1.618% and 2.618%

  • sportsdoc July 15, 2010, 7:58 am

    Great comments on the point by ‘Red Will “.
    Would love to see his comments more often.
    Read the history of the Fed Reserve, we are all manipulated by the bankers who run the world; tragic but true. Our Founding Fathers saw the danger but it has been ignored and thus here we are. Interestingly enough, they will not control China !! unless the Party loses control and democracy controlled by the bankers takes over !

    • Benjamin July 15, 2010, 11:08 am

      “…they will not control China !”

      Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. But if we go back 150 years or so, we’d see that after many nations demonitized silver, it was China that bought up much of it over the next 100 years. Oddly enough, the West came to control the majority of the gold supply during that same period.

      What’s also interesing is that China has been slowly increasing it’s gold production…

      http://www.goldsheetlinks.com/production.htm

      At one time, the gold/silver ratio was 1:100…

      http://www.goldprice.org/gold-silver-ratio.html#36_year_gold_price

      If China still held all that silver, they were bilked. Big time. I mean, it’s not a stretch of the imagination as to what the reason was for their going communist. They bought waaaay too much silver, and that hurt them. Not only that, but perhaps they did so, only then to see it devalue vs the gold that the West mostly still controls. Therefore, perhaps, and not surprising, their gold to currency reserves is quite slim indeed…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserves

      China may or may not be controlable by the cartel, but by the look of things they certainly aren’t winning against them. Wish I knew what was _really_ going on!

  • Grass Ranger July 15, 2010, 6:36 am

    “…properly applied Keynesian policy will work…”. This same line of BS has been applied to ever crackpot social theory ever invented by the wandering mind of man.

  • Other Paul July 15, 2010, 5:59 am

    Donniemac,
    I would very much like to know:
    1. Why no nation has “truly used Keynesian economics correctly.”
    2. What “properly applied” looks like.

    • donniemac July 15, 2010, 6:31 pm

      Massive spending in downturns and then getting all of that excess outlay back when the economy takes off. Unfortunately, most legislative bodies are loath to cut spending when the economy is running on all cylinders, actually they are loath to cut spending period :-). But that is what is needed, put that spending power back into the treasury for the next time it is needed and that action will also help keep the economy from becoming overheated during the expansion phase. I agree that to keep spending is kind of foolhardy, there are times one needs to put their economic house in order. But the time is not when demand is already weak. The time is when demand is strong.
      But to answer your question, I do not know any nation that greatly reduced spending after kick starting their economy. And there are lots of reasons why. Foremost is the lag between spending and the measurable results. Also the disagreement on what constitutes a downturn looking forward. Usually the damage done from a downturn is properly assessed afterwards, hindsight is 20/20.
      The quote about a democracy cannot survive once the citizens realize they can “raid” the treasury has a large streak of reality. All of that makes it very hard, IMHO, to properly apply Keynesian theory and why no one has actually done it.

  • donniemac July 15, 2010, 4:58 am

    When I first started reading and learning about gold, I was introduced to the concept of “real” money, that is gold and silver. There is a reason land is called real estate and real money basically fulfilled a similar role for a storage of value. It is real, pure and simple. Not to say that value is going to remain correctly priced in currency. But it is still real. Currency, on the other hand, is a storage of confidence. We can have many dollars in circulation and as long as the world sees the dollar as valuable, our economic strength will remain high due to the strength of the dollar. We could have very few dollars, backed by gold and silver, and if the world has no confidence in the value of the dollar, our economic strength would be low due to the weak dollar. And if the world has a high confidence in the dollar, our economy can be driven falsely by credit (as we have seen) or by dollars coming back into the US in the form of property purchases, immigration, and other vehicles to cause the rest of the world to spend and invest here in the US. As the true measure of our economy is not where the stock market is priced (although I would argue it is a good indicator), it is the flow of goods, raw to the producers and finished to the consumer. I like to pay attention to the number of trucks I see on the road. I like to ask friends about their personal economic status. I pay attention to businesses that have failed and those that have started up locally. And I believe news reports about other areas of the country that is experiencing a different economy, as long as what I am hearing and reading makes sense. (right now an article on a prosperous seafood house on the northern Gulf of Mexico coast would ring false). And from my point of view, things are looking up. But I am keeping my cards close to the vest because I do not like the current political and economic climate.
    So I shake my head at the irrational exuberance of many of my fellow optimists and at the same time feel sorry for our friends who are so caught up in the doom and gloom that they are becoming burdened with the weight of the world and irrationally seeing conspirators and fools in everyone else.
    The reality is that the economic world is complex to the nth degree and all one can do is to protect themselves and their assets while looking for opportunities. Anyone can find data to support their own beliefs, good data even. But that data does not come near to providing a correct reading of the economy. We are all blinded by our education and experiences. It is easy to keep calling for a pullback as it is bound to happen sooner or later, just as the eternal bull will occasionally call a rising market correctly (The eternal going to hell in a hand basket guru crowd seems to be larger than the group who believes the market is alway going up, IMO). So this I know, seeing nothing but bad things in our economy will keep one from gaining much wealth and ignoring the signs of hard times will keep one from retaining what wealth he or she has gained.
    And I sure hope I do not have to have my brother move in with us LOL.

    PS IMHO, no nation has truly used Keynesian economics correctly to manage their economy. And I believe that properly applied Keynesian policy will work to both stimulate a period of retraction and to cool off, and thus extend, periods of expansion.

    &&&&&&

    I don’t believe the economy is so complex that we should have any trouble understanding its fatal problem, which can be stated thus: Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender. RA

    • F. Beard July 15, 2010, 9:04 pm

      Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender. RA

      Not so. An equal distribution of sufficient new legal tender (United States Notes) to every US adult would bailout the borrowers, compensate the savers for years of suppressed interest rates and fix the banks in nominal terms. State tax revenues might also be fixed by a jubilant (pun intended) and spending population.

      Free lunch? Not really. It would merely be the halting of current wealth destruction.

      Our banking and money system is fundamentally crooked; it is thus an error to assume that normal moral principles apply to it.

      &&&&&&

      There are no exceptions to the rule; like the law of gravity, it is immutable. As for wealth destruction, it cannot be halted by such a scheme as you have proposed. You are arguing perpetual motion/cold fusion, or I’d spend more time crafting a rebuttal. RA

  • keith July 15, 2010, 3:41 am

    How nice it is to be mentioned in one of Ricks touts! I don’t want to misunderstood so I should clarify a few things.

    Yes, America has cancer and it seems to be terminal. Do I believe there is going to be a depression in the near future? You bet I do! Just not the variety that many are expecting.

    We both believe that collapse is coming. But you have to define collapse, what it will look like and what the value of the dollar will be, both domestically and internationally.

    If the dollar takes a big dump (which is yet to be seen) it will reflect in higher stock prices. When the dollar was revalued in the early 30’s it caused the stock market to climb, taking up the slack. If we do see a continuation of the current stock rally I simply see it as taking up the slack of a currency that is on it’s way out.

    • Benjamin July 15, 2010, 6:10 am

      A variety of depressions? Well, which is it that you expect? A tropical one? A bipolar one? A funeral-type grieving that will simply go away once we’ve all forgotten the dead? Just a plain ‘ol ditch in the ground?! Don’t leave us hangin’ man! 🙂

      But seriously, whatever you do don’t count on the dollar tanking, at least in the usual sense. I think it was said by Steve yesterday. Every dollar borrowed is one dollar plus usury owed back. We’re not Zimbabwe, we’re a puritanical Western culture, one that induces depression ie. So my take on the dollar is this…

      That is the whole point of a debt-based monetary system. What has Bernanke been saying the whole time? Right. He believes excess liquidity has been hindering some kind of perceived recovery. The Fed stepped up it’s buying to cool off what he was calling an overheating economy.

      By plunging interest to zero and below, borrowing steps up. But the the money to repay is simply not there because what does hit circulation doesn’t stay there for long. A substantial quantity doesn’t even hit circulation at all. What does, people use pay their debts. And thanks to usury there, most never can pay it off so it’s an ongoing series of black holes. Millions and millions of them. This can only lead to dollar strength, not weakness, because the demand for dollars increases in their absence (even as the quantity of them increases, oddly enough).

      That’s the domestic side of things. On the global market, the dollar will probably weaken, initially, because what else is there for it to do? But so long as creditors continue to buy U.S. Treasurys, it would remain more or less stagnate. Up, down, up down vs other currencies… Same old crap. And why would they stop buying entirely? In doing so, they keep their exports more competitive.

      Of course, those exports would be bought (or not, rather) by a scarcer, stronger domestic dollar. So there’s no reason to keep on buying U.S. debt, as it’s ultimately self-defeating. Except that in not buying them, their currencies would gain, making the U.S. an exporter once more… if only we had something to export! Jobs and capital investment in productive ventures has all but disappeared here. We’d have to rebuild in a pinch. Otherwise, foreign nations would have to devalue their currencies in order to somehow maintain competiveness.

      And so the race to the bottom would be on. YET, as said at the beginning, the more that is done, the stronger the currency gets. They become scarcer, disappear.

      So the problems do not go away with fiat currencies. It’s a lose-lose game. They have always only worked for short periods of time, until everyone realizes they are worthless, incapable of doing what needs to be done. It’s been nearly 40 years since the whole world went on fiat currencies. That’s a record, but only because of technological progress made over the same period of time (what had a firmer footing from what was learned and discovered in the gold standard days).

      So when technological progress slows down enough, fiat currencies will come to an end. Are we at that point? In my estimation, yes, we are. Has there been any real, substantial innovation in the last, say, ten years (besides the internet)? Has science made any serious progress in the last 50 years or so?

      It’s time to re-firm the ground, and let progress made take root in more lives. In time, innovation will pick up in earnest. Fiat currencies cannot accomplish any of this, as those are mudslides and earthquakes. They can only disappear when faced with the realities of increasing needs. Like the serpent swallowing it’s own tail, they will all choke themselves out.

    • mario cavolo July 15, 2010, 12:41 pm

      Hi Keith, “If the dollar takes a big dump (which is yet to be seen)…”

      …this is the core of the confusion and misunderstanding for many…the dollar HASN”T taken a big dump, really? ….its worth less and less in purchasing power every decade….its a sneaky creeping quiet constant inflation that keeps making everything more and more expensive and currencies weaker and weaker in how much purchasing power they have….this is why I do also say that the dollar will not “collapse”….it is not relatively in much worse shape comparatively…the printed trillions will be magically manipulated into that creeping, sneaky life-ruining, purchasing power destroying thing called inflation…and China with its rmb is now firmly and straight on that same road for the past 5 years and the next 30…..Cheers, Mario

  • charlie July 15, 2010, 3:22 am

    why would one even be concerned about other’s opinions?

    these technicals are based on reasonable expectations -moving target to target. Your pivots should tell when one is wrong; get out and wait for the next setup.

    7-14-2010, we reached a 1093.75 target Tuesday. it acted as resistance Wednesday. so flat, looking for the next trade – up or down..

  • Benjamin July 15, 2010, 2:49 am

    Since “defying gravity” is a frequently used phrase here, I figured this was relevant, if somewhat comedic…

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/science/article_a7c32f72-8e10-11df-955b-00127992bc8b.html

    No wonder nothing is falling down yet. So long as the universe remains in a state of perfect order, gravity simply will not exist! But consider this, if only for the heck of it…

    Disordered universe –> gravity works –> apples hit the ground

    Ordered universe –> gravity broken –> apples go bananas

    It’s logically impossible to have the latter because the universe becomes chaotic in the absence of gravity, which by definition is not an ordered universe. One could say the same of the former, but eh… On the whole, the universe is unpredictable, gravity works, and apples hit the ground. So why bother to challenge that?

    So the point is that everything is in disorder, thus gravity will at some time assert itself. We can be certain of this because an ordered universe would become chaotic to create gravity!

    • FranSix July 15, 2010, 3:24 pm

      The Gravity Scenario (theoretically speaking)

      In terms of gravity, we have something called the Net Present Value of companies, where the discount rate forms the x-axis(horizontal axis) and the NPV of the company is on the Y-axis. (vertical axis)

      The higher the discount rate, the lower the NPV of the company, but you would be well into the 10% range off to the right on the chart.

      The lower the discount rate, the higher the value of the company until you get to zero discount rate.

      But when you get to negative discount rate, something strange occurs. The NPV of your business experiences losses from all portions of the business, because either costs surge, or supply is not available, or everything that’s priced in currency experiences difficulties on pricing. What’s more, refinancing against the discount rate becomes a real problem, so all of the costs have to be borne out of cash flow.

      So there’s a limit to what you can value your company at, given a zero discount rate.

      With the exception of gold miners. Gold miners have as their asset value the gold contained in the ground. And their NPV is dependent on a commodity which is used as money that performs very strongly as a store of value in low interest rate environments.

      So their project value, or NET PRESENT VALUE skyrockets once the discount rate goes into the negative because gold, as a store of value, does not lose its value, it actually increases exponentially the more into the negative the discount rate goes.

      Of course, if deflation is occurring at the same time, then this would mitigate the upside somewhat in bullion, but the miners would begin to show astonishing yields.

      http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$IRX&p=W&b=5&g=0&id=p19892911321&a=191058127&listNum=2

    • Benjamin July 15, 2010, 8:21 pm

      I didn’t exactly think this would provoke a response, but thanks all the same. That’s interesting!

      But I thought I was following you until you got to gold. Negative discount… Okay, so that means what?

      I was under the impression that a negative discount means gain in value. For example… 100 at 0% discount = 100 … 100 at -10% discount = 110, and so on. Thus, lower NPV because 100 @10% discount = 90, and higher as discount approaches 0.

      If so, I can understand some of the problems about negative discount, like refinancing NPV. The company in question is too expensive to finance the more into the negative discount goes.

      Right so far?