Will Debt Forgiveness Work?

[This commentary from Rich Cash drew such a heavy response that we are re-publishing it today so that it can enjoy wider readership and a second round of debate in the Rick’s Picks forum.  It is the second of two radical proposals we have aired for dealing with debt. In the first, Ben Rositas, a frequent contributor to the Rick’s Picks forum, argued for the redistribution of America’s gold bullion to households and to all who are owed.  In the essay below, Cash, another forum regular and blogger, broaches the idea of a return to Biblical Jubilee, or something like it. Although we’ll concede that neither idea is even remotely feasible politically, consider the alternative: a debt deflation that locks the economy into a grinding Depression for the next twenty years. RA ]

Here’s Rich, with a message of (debt) forgiveness in his heart – and a plan:

“One Friday in the San Francisco Financial District after work, a group of movers and shakers got together at Harrington’s Pub for a liar’s dice game that rocked their foundations and changed their lives.  There was such intense play, they ran out of Federal Reserve Notes. They played with cigarettes, matches and pieces of paper IOUs until stakes reached trillions. They worked in an industry where the credit of their word was

When Bono ment with Jesse Helms to talk about debt forgiveness in Africa, it was reported that Helms wept

their bond, yet the stakes of the game became so high, they agreed to forgive each other’s IOUs so they could live to work and play again.

Leviticus 25

“In the Jubilee Year of Leviticus 25, those enslaved because of debts are freed, lands lost because of debt are returned, and community torn by inequality is restored. U2’s Bono invested a lot of time with the Jubilee2000 organization and World Economic Forum, arguing the best way to promote the development of poor countries was to forgive their debts. Bono met with Conservative Senator Jesse Helms, saying Helms wept when they spoke: “I talked to him about the Biblical origin of the idea of Jubilee Year…. He was genuinely moved by the story of the continent of Africa, and he said to me, ‘America needs to do more.’ I think he felt it as a burden on a spiritual level.

“Trevor Neilson of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation noted that the battle for development is going to be won at the backyard barbecue, not at the Council on Foreign Relations.  Fast forward seven years, a Sabbatical. Seven Sabbaticals are a Jubilee. Now the irony is it is not developing nations like Brazil, China, India, Korea and South Africa looking for debt-forgiveness to move ahead, but everyday Americans, socked silly by auto loans, credit cards, food prices, medical care, mortgages, taxes, utility bills and nagged by the suspicion their corporation, government or union already spent their pension or Social Security before laying them off.

Bernanke’s Ambitions

“That this is a timely discussion was perhaps signaled by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard’s article last week in the UK Telegraph: ‘Ben Bernanke needs fresh monetary blitz as US recovery falters’. The article claims the Fed Chair now wants to more than double the Fed balance-sheet monetary base from $2.2 Trillion to $5 Trillion, after almost tripling it from 2008 to 2010.  With a 9% decline in the monetary base this year, the alleged economic recovery, measured by Consumer Sentiment, Cost of Living, Employment, Foreclosures, GDP, Home sales, Manufacturing, and Tax Revenues, is rolling over again.

Regional Fed Hawks, echoing the 1930s, don’t want to blow the US Credit rating or Dollar out of the water with yet another insider asset bubble popping. Member banks and Americans cannot afford it. They want the Fed to start unloading $1.75 Trillion of Treasury bonds and mortgages the Fed bought during the crisis, which would pull more money out of the system and let people go back to work.

“The AEP article correctly observed the money multiplier is below 1 (83.8% to be exact), meaning for every additional debt dollar the Fed creates, the M1 supply loses 16.2 cents.

AEP cites the major mistake of the Fed as ignoring the broad economic money supply, buying assets from banks rather than people, as Paulson promised. M3 in fact contracted the last three months at a 7.6% annual rate, in case We the People were wondering why the reported recovery felt like a decline. Despite widespread talk of cutting government spending, taxes and war, nothing happened.  Despite usury prohibitions in the Bible, Quran and Torah, it is clear America can no longer service her debt, and borrowers are slaves to lenders.

‘Slow Crash’ Wins

“What it may come down to is this: Bilderberger Bankers met in Spain and Turkey, reportedly to discuss whether the inevitable corrective crash should be fast or slow. When they decided slow, events including BP, California and Greece overtook them. G-20 just met in Toronto to face the facts. Financial reform subsequently announced last Friday supposedly made bank stocks rally, but they didn’t get very far. Is it over already? We wonder if the economy and market will make it to November elections to remove incumbents who got us into this fine mess.

“While we are not proponents of ripping the band-aid off with a pound of flesh, we think the damage way beyond a superficial cut or scratch that can be covered with more paper debt IOUs.  The body politic is systemically riddled with cancerous debt-dollar usury.

Breaking legs, cement shoes or more economic hits by government mafia will not work.

It is clear after decades of failure the correct way to cure the malaise is not government amputation, monetary chemo or fiscal radiation, but letting free, natural markets do their healthy work to clear bad assets with creative destruction.

“Many may breathe a sigh of relief when Ben Shalom Bernanke and Barack Hussein Obama give up their quest to borrow, spend and tax their way to prosperity. We encourage everyone to read this link and call or write their representative to replace the failing 1913 Fed and IRS with this productive 28 basis point tax. Before our governments create Amnesty for Illegals, Drugs for Warlords and Revalued Chinese Yuan, let them first get our house in order.

“He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent; He who does these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)

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  • F. Beard July 14, 2010, 9:27 pm

    Gold backed or not, we most definitely have to take back the creation of money from private hands. howg

    Well, I believe in a balance of power; let government create money that is legal tender for government debt only (taxes, fees, etc.) and let the private sector create private monies unbacked by any government privilege.

  • Richard Oliver July 6, 2010, 5:04 pm

    Problem is the people that are screwing us…..are the SAME people that INVENTED modern religion 2000 and 3000 years ago. All stolen from the Egyptions and ancient peoples. The bible is an allegorical myth mostly based on the stars and the sun…….and billions of people are brainwashed into thinking…..its about a bunch of dudes running around preaching crap. Look where it has gotten us….

    • F. Beard July 6, 2010, 5:52 pm

      The bible is an allegorical myth mostly based on the stars and the sun…….and billions of people are brainwashed into thinking…..its about a bunch of dudes running around preaching crap. Look where it has gotten us…. RO

      Does this sound like our present system?

      “You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

      “You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess. Deuteronomy 23:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)

      from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023:19-20&version=NASB

      Christians are ignorant of the Old Testament too so don’t feel too bad. Just read it as an interesting
      book, I suggest; it will grow on you, I’d bet if you do.

  • F. Beard July 5, 2010, 11:23 pm

    Some think the next government income target may be churches … Rich

    May it be so. Once churches have nothing to lose by speaking out then more of them might do so. The silence of the churches is being bought with their tax exempt status, IMO.

    • howg July 11, 2010, 1:20 am

      To F. Beard:
      Many thanks for your insights.
      I prefer to cite simple logic rather than biblical sources, (which I know nothing about), but they amount to the same thing.
      You appear to be the only commentator who actually understands that our banks lend money they do not have. In effect, creating our money supply as debt.
      Arguing that we should or should not have to pay back our debts takes on an entirely different meaning when this is understood.
      Whatever the bible says about paying off one’s debts, I’m sure it assumes the lender actually had the money to lend in the first place!
      Gold backed or not, we most definitely have to take back the creation of money from private hands.
      As to gold, if it would work, I’m all for it.
      I am less than convinced it is necessary, but gold backed or not, our money has to reflect the value of our collective labours / creativity / productivity – not the value of gold.
      And who gets to set that value, and what do we buy the gold with?
      And if our money is all debt in the first place… well, ya don’t need to be a biblical scholar to figure that one out…

  • Rich July 5, 2010, 6:06 pm

    Here’s Forbes’ coverage of GE and Exxon paying no US income taxes last year, in the case of GE, receiving a $1.1 Billion tax benefit instead.

    Meanwhile GE Corporate Crier Kudlow wants to cut corporate taxes because they are too high.

    Note the comment that effectively dismisses the twin shibboleths that companies significantly increase profits by laying off employees, and that (small) business tax increases are passed on to consumers…

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes.html

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes_slide.html

    All effective reasons for APTT replacing the present cockeyed tax system before the inevitable Debt Jubilee…

  • Rich July 5, 2010, 5:33 pm

    If it is ok with Rick, who graciously began this extended Holiday Weekend conversation on Jubilee last week, will send current information on Big4, Jubilee Prosperity and TopTen to anyone who emails JubileeProsperity@gmail.com
    Regards*Rich

  • Rich July 5, 2010, 5:26 pm

    That is, government promises the social security number would *Never* become a mark of the beast…

    Some footnotes to earlier discussion points:

    Many claim the NIH, now a sprawling bureaucracy with little government oversite or accountability, created Human Genome Maps and other invaluable intellectual properties, when the real issue is, would the private market not have created them more efficiently and fairly?

    Also, a big part of exporting American jobs in asymmetrical unfree unfair trade was technology transfer, accomplished by American corporations moving American manufacturing technology overseas to cheaper labor, and Federal government subsidizing illegals and immigrants with free social services, including education to the PhD level, Wen Ho Lee a prime example who came from Taiwan to America for his PhD and then reportedly transferred neutron bomb secrets to the PRC.

    Agree with NV Senator Reid Challenger Sharron Angle who yet again earmarks the Federal Department of Education for dismantling and returning to State Control. So many Fed mandates were unfunded anyway.
    The internet technology exists for public virtual education rationalizing the efficiency of home schooling and replacing the horrible inefficiency of current public education. Let the Ivies continue as private education clubs, but stop the public funding, taxes and control of them.

    Ditto the Department of More Expensive Energy.

    Halliburton/KBR CEO VP Cheney and the Rockefeller Brothers created the energy monster that gave us $4 gasoline, the Gulf Oil Spill and so far endless wars in the middle east.

    Let’s use APTT to stop the special interest tax credits, deductions, loopholes and tax subsidies that fed them, moving corporate HQs offshore to Cayman Island or Dubai, with the tax big oil charade of gasoline taxes passed on to the consumer.

    The $20 Billion BP Obama Slush fund added to the hundreds of thousands BP gave 0, represented 20 days of BP 2008 sales, and was deductible under present tax law, as was the Deepwater Horizon disaster

    http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/07/04/oil-companies-including-bp-and-transocean-reap-big-tax-breaks/

    BP paid $10 Billion income taxes on $366 Billion revenues in 2008, an effective tax rate of 2.7%, while the IRS made clear it will collect 10-35% income taxes on unemployed fishermen hired by BP without respirators.

    A uniform APTT replacing all other taxes can do wonders for the American economy and future.

  • Richard Oliver July 4, 2010, 6:59 pm

    While I agree that people need to be more responsible for their actions……the word “brainwashing” comes to mind as far as keeping up with the Jone’s. People are easily swayed…..and evil banks and govts KNOW DAM WELL people will overspend. Those corrupt evil people at the top are supposed to….look out for our benefit. Not prey on our immoralities. I have no sympathy as to what the mobs may do to these people in the future…..

    • Rich July 4, 2010, 9:00 pm

      Re blame and fingerpointing, before or by the end of our lives we all face our decisions to change, participate or withdraw from corrupt systems to improve our lives.

      Revelation 13, written almost 1920 years ago, talks about The Mark of the Beast and the Consequences of accepting it.

      http://www.markbeast.com/

      It is interesting to consider Social Security Number promises it would become a government tax ID, and promises the income tax would never go over 2%.

      Consider the number of churches, families and non-profits hurt by usury tax politics.

      Some think the next government income target may be churches and non-profits, while select private stockholder corporations or Foundations like the Fed and their owners earn ROIs in the 100s of percent, living a lavish Gulfstream Helicopter Ponzi lifestyle, paying few or no taxes while prosecuting others.

      http://www.rumormillnews.com/fedres.htm

      How did Geithner ever get approved as Treasury Secretary after not paying his IMF funded taxes, nor fines and penalties?

      APTT replacing partisan special interest taxes with a uniform transparent transaction tax offers a much better tax alternative that encourages prosperity.

      As Frank Wallace observed in NeoCheating, NeoTech and Poker, A Guaranteed Income for Life, before the IRS raided his Las Vegas offices, confiscated his property and sent him to prison, the only one who lets us be cheated by others is ourself.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_R._Wallace

      That’s why trading is such a great or horrible thing, depending on our spirit within.

      Ready for a runaway rally or whatever the markets bring Tuesday…

  • Pastor Steve Wright July 3, 2010, 5:50 pm

    F. Beard – Your point in comparing debt to Biblical hard currency is noted.

    However, here in the trenches, when a guy is hurting his family, and he and his wife come to me for advice, and they share how he has “bought” (on Visa) the jet skis, the new golf clubs, the leased Escalade, all in an attempt to impress the neighbors and live a lifestyle he can’t afford – I don’t think my focus should be the fractional reserve banking cartel.

    • F. Beard July 3, 2010, 6:02 pm

      @Pastor Wright,
      I contend the bankers stole our birthright and gave US a mess of pottage (consumer goods) in its place. The bankers, for example, engineered boom-bust cycles to dispossess Americans of their family farms in the 1890s. The petty greed of average Americans is trivial compared to those who destroy lives for wealth and power.

  • S David July 3, 2010, 4:15 pm

    Thanks Rich:

    Aside from a well-thought out article, you have spent a considerable amount of time responding to other’s thoughts and queries. It is appreciated.

    • Rich July 4, 2010, 8:26 pm

      Welcome and thank you SD.
      I care about our future…

  • F. Beard July 2, 2010, 11:13 pm

    There are people who, through greed and covetousness, take on debts they can’t afford with the understanding that they can bail out because the debtors prison does not exist today. For such a person, ‘the wicked borrows and does not repay’ is quite fitting. They are not victims in any sense of the word. Pastor Wright

    The government backed fractional reserve banking cartel in a government enforced monopoly money supply is essentially a government backed counterfeiting
    ring. To have not borrowed from the cartel was to risk being PERMANENTLY priced out of the housing market by negative real interest rates in housing.

    So Pastor, I respectfully submit that debt today is not to be compared to debt in the Old Testament when money was actually hard currency.

    If you wish to attack greed, I suggest you focus on the bankers who create money from nothing and exchange it for a promise to repay that money with interest that may not even exist thus guaranteeing at least some defaults. It thus cheats savers of honest free market interest rates and drives borrowers into debt that may be unpayable, particularly when the economy contracts.

  • Pastor Steve Wright July 2, 2010, 10:44 pm

    F. Beard – I agree with you fully as you wrote “Actually, I find the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to be a wonderful source of economic wisdom. We would not be in these troubles if the economists had heeded Scripture. ” – I was not saying otherwise, and your list of such examples are just some of the good ones. (Diversification is also taught, which I reminded some folks back in the mania days of the dot.coms). My point is looking TOO closely at what was a specific rule for national Israel in a specific context and seeking the modern application.

    Mario Cavolo – The fact that any Scripture must be taught in context, or that some fail to do so and thus use Scripture for their agendas, does not negate their value. Anything of worth can be perverted and abused, can it not?

    There are people who, through greed and covetousness, take on debts they can’t afford with the understanding that they can bail out because the debtors prison does not exist today. For such a person, ‘the wicked borrows and does not repay’ is quite fitting. They are not victims in any sense of the word.

    Of course the verse does not apply to all cases or circumstances, and if Scripture is interpreted and applied with other Scripture, such faulty applications will be avoided.

    • Rich July 4, 2010, 8:24 pm

      High Tech Debtors prison does exist today,
      in the form of Consumer Reports that can deny people credit, contracts, food, medical care, shelter and work indefinitely. Try correcting their errors sometime…

    • mario cavolo July 5, 2010, 6:16 am

      The fact that any Scripture must be taught in context, or that some fail to do so and thus use Scripture for their agendas, does not negate their value. Anything of worth can be perverted and abused, can it not?

      Amen Pastor Steve. You are pointing out the exception to the rule that was in my mind and of course you are are absolutely right regarding such people who greedily misuse and abuse the world around them.

      I was simply meaning that “mainstream America” became the borrowers because the government/banks/media system in America shifted American values, brainwashed them, encouraged them to do it, to make such behavior as a credit based lifestyle become regarded as “normal” in the society. That is classic sociology/brainwashing/forming of citizen’s behavior and very unfortunate.

  • F. Beard July 2, 2010, 4:46 pm

    Interest causes inflation and deflation when it grows faster than the economy.
    We are talking debt, money and usury here while gold collapses.
    Any ideas?
    Rich

    [a rare repost; sorry if I bore]:
    Here’s a third option [to cure deflation] that requires no gold and compensates savers as well as bails out debtors.
    1. Set reserve requirements to 100% to shut down the counterfeiting cartel.
    2. Create a sufficient amount of new legal tender fiat and distribute it to every adult. Let’s be generous to preclude the possibility of deflation with 100% reserve requirements. The Bible mandates a minimum two-fold repayment for theft.
    This would:
    a. enable underwater home owners to pay down their mortgages to market price levels.
    b. compensate savers for years of artificially suppressed interest rates.
    c. Fix the banks in nominal terms.
    d. Fix state tax revenues.
    Inflation risk? Maybe, but if banks were put out of the counterfeiting business via a 100% reserve requirement then the only source of new money into the system would be under government control, the Fed and US Treasury.
    Long term solution? Allow liberty in money creation, usage, and acceptance. Government money should be legal tender for government debt only (“Render to Caesar …”) while private money would be allowed to serve the private sector

  • Max Power July 2, 2010, 4:38 pm

    “It is clear after decades of failure the correct way to cure the malaise is not government amputation, monetary chemo or fiscal radiation, but letting free, natural markets do their healthy work to clear bad assets with creative destruction.”

    The problem is there are so many problems that contribute in some way to the overall mess the world is in. One could spend hours ranting on this. But for the USA, unemployment is a major issue. This can only be cured by paying people less (leading to massive defaults on existing debt and massive equity losses due to asset devaluations, but the clueless herd and government officials do not want this), devaluing the US dollar (which will help retain asset values and debt and salaries, but the clueless herd does not want this), or trade tariffs/controls (but the clueless economists and government officials do not want this). So what does one do? All the answers are there and are clear, but there is no will to follow through with any of them. That is life with the clueless. Always a mess. Always hoping (believing?) there is some type of magical easy solution out there. Likely, as things degenerate further (since this is the only possible outcome), this will lead to a single banking system as it will be the only convenient option available in which to maintain some measure of confidence in fiat currency, and to contain monetary/trade abuses/imbalance such as started by Japan about 30 years ago and copied by others, particularly China in more recent years.

    • Benjamin July 2, 2010, 7:38 pm

      While devaluation might cure unemployment, it would cure nothing.

      It would raise asset values, but what good does that do when people can’t work as the result of that? Buying and selling = jobs. Putting it out of reach = unemployment.

      But then some country made “richer” by this devaluation would do the buying while we save.

      Sounds wonderfully simple and desireable, but then what about the debt that government over-borrowing has already wrought? Literally, our government has borrwed us, the lenders that matter, into such deep debt that WE’RE on the hook. How do they begin to repay that, let alone what would be taken in increasing exports?

      It isn’t at all about people working for more or less. It’s about production staying ahead of parasitism, and parasites never do. They insist upon nothing but more taking.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 9:19 pm

      “But for the USA, unemployment is a major issue. This can only be cured by paying people less (leading to massive defaults on existing debt and massive equity losses due to asset devaluations, but the clueless herd and government officials do not want this), devaluing the US dollar (which will help retain asset values and debt and salaries, but the clueless herd does not want this), or trade tariffs/controls (but the clueless economists and government officials do not want this)…Likely, as things degenerate further (since this is the only possible outcome) ”

      Importing illegals, exporting jobs, paying people less and competing with dollar-a-day assymmetrical “free trade” is what got US into this mess.
      Henry Ford prospered paying his employees more. America prospered more with liberty than Big Brother/Sister/Daddy/Mommy government.
      Devaluing the dollar bankrupts the US faster.
      Reagan proved a strong dollar was the lynchpin of economic prosperity.
      Price, wage or trade controls or tariffs benefit government insiders and not the economy.
      The only productive tax is the uniform Constitutional APTT that thought moulding monopoly media say is 75% opposed by the American people.
      BS. It is opposed by the people who own the government and media.
      It is time for the savers and workers of America to put themselves back to wealth and work by ending the Fed and IRS. It is not too late and clueless degeneration is not the only outcome…

  • mario cavolo July 2, 2010, 3:52 pm

    I mean no disrespect whatsoever toward any religion or spiritual believer or person here, just adding to the conversation. I learned a along time ago to be more thankful for my commonsense awareness than to allow other people addicted to their religious and spiritual beliefs to try to ram them down other people’s throats, minds and hearts. I remain deeply wary of the unfortunate mistake of “spiritualizing” concepts and ideas which are not spiritual.

    “The Scriptures clearly declare the wicked borrows and does not repay….” ….is a great example of a concept or rule easily taken out of context. Did the spiritual writers conceive of American marketing of a debt-lifestyle when they wrote that rule of God? Do they understand that a society brainwashes its citizens? I think not, and it obviously doesn’t apply to many, many people. You mislead me, you manipulated me and then I’M responsible for my mistakes because you mislead and manipulated me?….I don’t think so.

    Jesus this, Jesus that, Biblical this, Biblical that…all good things too often sadly misapplied and misinterpreted for even more selfish reasons. The bottom line is the golden rule. Too complex to wade through the rest…

    Cheers all, Mario

    This

  • Benjamin July 2, 2010, 12:45 pm

    “Many may breathe a sigh of relief when Ben Shalom Bernanke and Barack Hussein Obama give up their quest to borrow, spend and tax their way to prosperity. We encourage everyone to read this link and call or write their representative to replace the failing 1913 Fed and IRS with this productive 28 basis point tax. Before our governments create Amnesty for Illegals, Drugs for Warlords and Revalued Chinese Yuan, let them first get our house in order.”

    Some things I had overlooked before…

    1a) Why this particular tax?
    1b) Why not, say, a tax on breathing (cap and trade)?
    1c) We all breath, we all transact money. So with the right numbers, couldn’t cap and trade be made to look as good as the transaction tax?

    2a) What does this or any taxation have to do with a Jubilee?
    2b) If we were to just adop that way of life, why worry about taxation at all?
    2c) Couldn’t all government spending just be forgiven every seven years?

    3) Why pin the blame on just one CB Chairman and President?

    4a) Amnesty for Illegals. That’s an interesting point. Read Steve’s post. We’re all acting illegally, so why cut off bad government at that point only?
    4b) Which is to ask… Are we just aiming for limited bad government, rather than a ousting of the whole?
    4c) If so, why?

    5) Drugs and drug lords… I think someone already made the point, but we already through pleny of business and power their way. Forgiveness on govt debt for this item would be unconsciable, as it would do nothing to solve the problem. Nor would any change in the system of taxation deal with it. It would only continue to exacerbate it.

    6) Revalued Chinese Yuan. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t a stronger Chinese currency allow them to buy up more debt from the U.S.? And isn’t it also true that stronger Yuan can be acheived by our government simply doing more spending? China wouldn’t have to curb or expand it’s purchases. The Fed would hapilly do it for them so as to allow them more buying power in the future. More of the same old currency games, ie.

    Seems a lot of conclusions are being to jumped to prematurely from the forgivness plan.

    And while I’ll consider any and all answers, I’ll say ahead of time that think it is in fact more poltically doable than what I suggested, as in a lot of ways it’s exactly what has been going on.

    And Indeed, lower taxation is part of the problem, oddly enough. The less they collect, the more debt sales are pumped up because the money is left in circulation rather than being removed. This is true, anyway, until debt levels become so high as to increase the demand for the money in which personal debt balances are measured. And lowering taxation (assuming that would be acheived, whatever the tax) is in a way like debt forgiveness for the government. It would only allow the same things to continue.

    • Max Power July 2, 2010, 5:00 pm

      “Why pin the blame on just one CB Chairman and President?”

      Easy… because it’s the clueless thing to do. That’s how the clueless operate. That’s how they have always operated and that’s how they will continue operate.

      “And isn’t it also true that stronger Yuan can be achieved by our government simply doing more spending?”

      Yes. But given what the Chinese are doing, perhaps what the Fed needs to do is just print boatloads of cash and buy Chinese Yuan with it. So even though the US is running a huge trade deficit with China, the US will be able to accumulate massive reserves of Chinese Yuan. Wow. The US will then be like China, with massive foreign reserves. Of course, the brilliant Chinese will print even more Yuan to buy all those US dollars hitting the market. The US will then counter the Chinese, and so on. At some point, oil will hit $500 per barrel or higher, and international shipping will have fallen off a cliff because the cost of oil will be too high to ship goods. This will then do what trade tariff/controls would have done, or a host of other things – which is kill these ridiculous trade imbalances that exist in the world, and which have contributed in a significant way to the financial imbalances that exist.

      “Seems a lot of conclusions are being to jumped to prematurely from the forgivness plan.”

      Unfortunately, debt forgiveness will not correct the underlying problems. This will only buy a measure of time until a repeat occurs. Although, given what is occurring in the world, debt “forgiveness” (aka, debt default) this may be a forced outcome in some fashion.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 10:16 pm

      “1a) Why this particular tax?”

      Increased mass media coverage of the UN Financial transaction tax and Euro TT, we are going to get a TT. Let’s just make darn sure it is uniform and minimal – 28 basis points.

      “2a) What does this or any taxation have to do with a Jubilee?”

      There is no point in defaulting or forgiving the crushing pyramid of debts if we keep the same tax usury mechanisms, ie the Fed and IRS, that created them.

      “3) Why pin the blame on just one CB Chairman and President?”

      Did not intend to. They were on watch when the fit hit the shan, providing this rare opportunity for productive reform, instead of more of the same since 1913.

      “4a) Amnesty for Illegals. That’s an interesting point. Read Steve’s post. We’re all acting illegally, so why cut off bad government at that point only?”

      You mean faulty exegesis, as in thinking spiritual principles actually relevant, timeless and universal?;

      We are clearly not all acting illegally.

      Bad government can be ended and improved by voting bad incumbents out and voting people in with good reform ideas.

      No great idea may ever please all the people and all their opinions all the time, but APTT can make a major difference getting this country back to prosperity and out of deficit destruction by debt deflation. At some point, hamster wheels run off track.

      “5) Drugs and drug lords…Forgiveness on govt debt for this item would be unconscionable, as it would do nothing to solve the problem.”

      Drugs, since they are illegal, are a $352 billion a year cash business, the source of deposits for international banks including BAC and Wachovia taken over by Wells.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/dec/13/drug-money-banks-saved-un-cfief-claims

      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-29/banks-financing-mexico-s-drug-cartels-admitted-in-wells-fargo-s-u-s-deal.html

      The APTT will tax drug money, unlike the IRS, which some claim is under criminal political control:

      http://www.apfn.org/SkolnicksReport/corruptirs3.html

      As Chris T et al pointed out, decriminalizing drugs the way they were before Woodrow Wilson, can reduce crime, costly law enforcement and the unproductive US prison planet population, largest in the world.

      Most MDs I know consider drugs a medical political rather than legal social issue.

      Again, the number one item on 0’s election website was decriminalizing pot and taxing it. Do you think drug pushers making tax free money and controlling politicians want that?

      “wouldn’t a stronger Chinese currency allow them to buy up more debt from the U.S.? And isn’t it also true that stronger Yuan can be achieved by our government simply doing more spending?”

      For starters, the Yuan went down when it was let loose, possibly because of all the neoKeynesian Party bank loans defaulting in China with fake central party GDP numbers HW and HP may have taught them.

      Why would China went to buy up Treasury debt with an increasing risk of insolvency? They would rather buy our assets, ports and resources.

      While WalMart drove up the Yuan with cheap merchandise until consumers were tapped out, the defacto end of US deficit government spending actually threatens the Yuan with devaluation.

      “And while I’ll consider any and all answers, I’ll say ahead of time that think it is in fact more politically doable than what I suggested, as in a lot of ways it’s exactly what has been going on. ”

      The full court media press by TPTB is on. Let’s just make sure it is our itemized APTT replacing all other taxes, and not more their hidden taxes piled on.

      “lowering taxation (assuming that would be achieved, whatever the tax) is in a way like debt forgiveness for the government. It would only allow the same things to continue.”

      How is APTT debt forgiveness for the government?

      Under the current 1913 Fed/IRS system, the US government calls it public debt, because it is owed by the people. The lie used to be we owed it to ourselves, so it didn’t matter. When it started destroying the economy, it mattered.

      The point of Jubilee is that it is inevitable.

      Meanwhile, the APTT is a more efficient, fair and uniform mechanism for collecting the same revenue (revenue neutral).

      If APTT is as productive as Adam Smith, David Ricardo, JFK, RR and Art Laffer found, the 28 basis point (2.8 mil) APTT tax rate can be lowered.

      We the people will have to spend a few hours every week looking at government numbers on the internet to make sure they are doing what they promised.

      Once we clear government halls and the public square of the plutocratic thieves, we can watch our government and our representatives as our careful investments in the future instead of pretending kleptocracy doesn’t matter.

      Our next item of business may be to monitor crazy unConstitutional SCOTUS decisions and mount impeachments as warranted.

      Oh the times, they are a changin’…

    • Benjamin July 3, 2010, 1:13 pm

      Rich,

      After reading through your response to some of my later posted questions, I’ve decided for the sake of brevity to respond to just this one (though I do appreciate your taking the time to answer the others. Thank you)…

      “How is APTT debt forgiveness for the government?”

      Government is in hock with it’s citizens, to such an extent that there’s a high level of personal debt that has resulted over the decades, in addition to what government owes in social security. APTT has to not only provide government, but to pay back all of that because what government has done is criminal. If APTT can’t do that, then it’s “debt” (criminal) forgiveness.

      Even without that consideration, the nature of taxation is that of the forcing of something that would occurr if it could, which is voluntary lending of gold and silver coin to government. In forcing the free market to pay for what it can’t, it only delays the point at which voluntary lending would take place again. It’s a default because the return date is rarely if ever considered, which is of course crucial if we are to say we have a free market. And without a free market, we’re not free, which is what government is supposed to provide: protection of our natural rights.

      But in terms of APTT, I’d have to pay more than a dollar to equall a dollar in buying power. Then, government spending causes it’s price inflation, forcing me to spend more. All the while, it takes X number of transactions until that original dollar gets back to me. In fact, it never does at all because it is taxed over and over, or transactions fall because of the tax. So every dollar I spend nets me less in return. This is going to curb nessecary investment at some point. Yes, the rate can be bickered down, but the ability to argue and having it done are two different things. It may or may not happen, and it may not happen to a great enough extent when it does.

      Then there’s the default of too little. If people want more government, they have to fight to raise the revenues first, which can take a long time, most likely because the effects of taxation are rearing their ugly heads. And with that impasse, it’s likely that government will seek to borrow, which is about the worst time to do so.

      With voluntary lending of gold and silver coin, there are none of those things. There’s free market control of revenue, a full return, and limited price inflation, the latter due to discounting government money created on what was loaned. Under voluntary lending, if the people figure they can bear the inflation more, they will continue to lend the same or more. If not, they hold back, and let their full returns invest in order to bring the price inflation back down.

      Voluntary lending is beautiful in it’s simplicity whereas taxation is cumbersome and ugly it’s many arguments, complex and questionable equations, and inevitable failure. Liberty requires simplicity. Simplicity is the only way enough people are ever going to truly understand money and finances.

      That’s not to say that there isn’t anything worth arguing for the APTT. I’m sure it would deliver at least some of those promised benefits, for a while. But why go for a temporary fix when we can get the whole enchilada? Heck, if we’re going to expend incredible effort in making changes, might as well make the most effective changes we can make. After all, given how hard changes come about, once an idea is implemented, faulty though it may be, changing it so soon is next to impossible. No. It IS impossible! Only time and yet more needless pain has to be endured until that can be changed again.

      Besides, there is going to be no getting rid of the Fed and/or IRS through APTT alone. When a tax inevitably does what all taxes do, the government is going to want to borrow for the resulting shortfall that its tax caused. We’ve had central banks in the past, before the Fed. The Fed is only the longest lasting of them all thus far. I’m sure that even if APTT did abolish the Fed, it would be ressurected at the first sign of trouble, only under a different name. Monitize gold and silver, though, and the Fed goes away. At that point, taxation would be needless, and even more dangerous to have around under the present circumstances.

      A taxless system was not something I ever expected to find myself arguing for. Why, the very idea, when there is so much to be done! Voluntary taxation was the pipe-dream of anarchists who would destroy the country if we ever had such a thing. I was of the mind that, while I’m all for free markets, certain things should be forced because it was “for our own good” to force them. A couple of Freudian slips of the tongue, though, and a new idea comes roaring in. Speaking of which…

      “How is APTT debt forgiveness for the government?

      Under the current 1913 Fed/IRS system, the US government calls it public debt, because it is owed by the people. The lie used to be we owed it to ourselves, so it didn’t matter. When it started destroying the economy, it mattered.

      ***The point of Jubilee is that it is inevitable.*** ”

      If it’s inevitable, then APTT is in fact forgiveness of government debt, that very criminality that is the Fed and IRS system. Ooops… Slip! It’s okay. Happens to the best of us.

      And as it so happens, forgiveness of the debt means returning what was stolen, which the Fed certainly does have. They most certainly did not buy up all those junk bonds without hedging themselves against their inevitable failure. They’re not even Keynesian chrysophobes. They were able to much more easily do what FDR failed to do with outright seizure. They removed and increasingly put gold out of reach of many people, all through their fraudulent act. Only geniuses can make themselves look so stupid while making themselves so rich and powerful. The act has worked so well that just about everyone sees default as the only option.

      But it isn’t. Government CAN make good on that theft, and it IS possible to break the chains of debts slavery that have been tightly wrapped around everyone. All it takes to abolish the Fed is to put government back where it belongs… on a gold and silver limitation. And since people need gold and silver to fund government, busting the Fed becomes nessecary and certain because they have it as a nessecity of making this failed venture possible.

      “Under the current 1913 Fed/IRS system, the US government calls it public debt, because it is owed by the people. The lie used to be we owed it to ourselves, so it didn’t matter. When it started destroying the economy, it mattered.”

      lol… See my silly little link to the old wrestling footage if you haven’t already. Indeed it does matter. Yes, the little man behind the curtain gifts us only with insulting crap which we just shouldn’t accept. No, the bad leg doesn’t cripple us. In a strange way, that video has a lot of meaning despite being what it is. Of course, it still remains to be seen if the boss will come back. If we don’t take charge yesterday, then this won’t go well at all.

    • Rich July 4, 2010, 8:19 pm

      @ Benjamin July 3, 2010 at 1:13 pm
      and Max Power July 2, 2010 at 5:00 pm

      Every Congress, Court, President and Fed Board since 1913 created this mess with fractional reserve banking, funny money and usury tax, and the American people suffer the yoke of economic imperialism.

      We the little people were so busy running on the hamster wheel they created we just did not hold them to account yet like the Founding Fathers held the Brits accountable with the Declaration of Independence.

      When perverted systems fail, a higher court called the free market and invisible hand remedy matters.

      Watched the wrestling comedia del arte morality play and still prefer Animal Farm, Atlas Shrugged, Brave New World, Oliver Twist and 1984 for political economics and the impoverishing consequences of tyranny. Many have the fantasy of turning the tables on the weasels and tying them up. Rarely happens. Now may be such a time, as $1.7 Trillion of corporate cash transactions can be taxed with APTT.

      Stunned B would be willing to lend gold and silver to government after they confiscated gold and took it or silver off the Constitutional monetary standard in 1933, 1963 and 1971.

      The claim that any tax causes inflation and stymies growth simply does not hold up in experience. Excess taxes and bad government do.

      The USA had low taxes with phenomenal growth from 1776, not the income tax, held unconstitutional by SCOTUS until the 16th Amendment in 1913, which some say was not properly voted or ratified.

      The key to USA growth surpassing all other nations was freedom codified by the Constitution and upheld by the three branches of government.

      When non-uniform income taxes came along, the economic engine of the US began sputtering, from Abraham Lincoln in August 1861, Grover Cleveland in 1892 and Woodrow Wilson from 1913 on.

      http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25787.html

      Fiscal, media and monetary technetronic control of the mind of the masses is the moral equivalent of the Central Party Politburo Oligarchy that failed China and Russia for many generations, until they wised up like Joseph and the Pharaoh and granted a modicum of economic freedom and private property.

      Russia overcame currency and debt defaults and economic collapse in 2001 with a lower flat tax than America, 13%.

      Ironically, Christopher Cox headed reports on Chinese military espionage, Russian Economic Collapse, and the connect the dots between the two.

      http://www.house.gov/coxreport/

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_Report

      http://www.fas.org/news/russia/2000/russia/part00-cover.htm

      The warnings were widely ignored or rebutted by academics and mass media, forgotten when he was Chair of the SEC, presiding over the collapse of American financial markets from within.

      Only Hughes and Loral were fined $44 Million, while the government case against Wen Ho Lee on Bill Richardson’s watch for theft of neutron bomb secrets fell apart, ending with taxpayers paying Wen $1.6 million for false imprisonment.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee

      Commerce Secretary Lawyer Lobbyist Ron Brown, who handled the Loral CEO Bernard Schwartz Chinese strategic satellite missile guidance deal for one of the largest D Donors, selling to the Chinese, died after an airplane crash, some say with a bullet in his head.

      http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/7/150106.shtml

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Brown_%28U.S._politician%29

      http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/BROWN/brown.html

      The subtitle to the Cox Report on Russia said it all:
      “How the Clinton Administration Exported Government Instead of Free Enterprise and Failed the Russian People.”

      Might as well paraphrase that to Bush, Obama and Company re the American people.

      Today Russia with her 13% flat tax has budget and trade reserve surpluses, while America has debts as far as the eye can see, hidden taxes of 10% real CPI, 0Care taxes disguised as healthcare, quintupling gold in a decade. Lower taxes did not hurt Russia.

      http://www.heritage.org/Research/Commentary/2003/03/Russias-Flat-Tax-Miracle

      On the other hand, Kudlow made the classic supply-side broad paintbrush runaway debt mistake Stockman, his former boss as Reagan’s Budget Director, called him on last week.

      http://www.cnbc.com/id/38044937 7:58

      USA debt may be at the tipping point. The Chinese told Geithner and Bernanke to eat red dirt.

      America and 46 of her states are upside down, spending hundreds of billions more than they are taking in. We are in accelerating debt deflation.

      Putting people out of work or raising taxes cuts income revenues and creates government insolvency, no matter how much government borrows and spends, calling it bailouts and stimulation, when government actually keeps more than half the money for itself. They go on vacation without dealing with unemployment benefits.

      Ignoring the debt or starving it runs a good chance of ending most governments and taking the USA into martial law.

      On the other hand, instead of adding a VAT on to failing income taxes, replacing failed taxes with APTT stands a decent chance to rebuild the private economy while paying down the debts, something that has not happened since Andrew Jackson was President dealing with State Nullification and the Central Bankers tried to assassinate him.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

      Re what the government and Fed did was “criminal”, it was at least unConstitutional. Making government fail does not serve anyone. Two wrongs do not make a right. Our job as voters is to put representatives in who serve, protect and defend our Constitution, with borrowing and spending cuts and the APTT.

      We are making progress. Sharron Angle, smeared in ads by Harry Reid as a kook, is actually leading him 48 to 41% according to Rasmussen, a D poll…

      http://www.cnbc.com/id/38039255 7:09

    • Benjamin July 5, 2010, 12:57 am

      “The claim that any tax causes inflation and stymies growth simply does not hold up in experience. Excess taxes and bad government do.”

      a) When dishoarding savings to spend on anything but a successful venture which results in increased productivity, price inflation is going to be the result. Government is not, nor ever will be, a venture to increase productivity of capital. It is forever reliant upon the efficiency of capital.

      b) When reaching into circulating capital to spend on nonproductive ventures, it stands to reason that the flow of capital into savings is going to be interupted to at least some degree, yielding price inflation (and worse, interfering with the flow of capital into and out of savings until circulating capital itself suffers. ie, The “neverending” inflation/deflation debate that clearly ends with total depression, or evaporation of the currency).

      Which is to say that anything but a free market provision of government _is_ bad government. Taxation as a rate or the collection of some fixed amount of money is an interference, no matter the amount and source. And the root of all stymied growth is interefence in the market to any extent.

      The problem is that the creators of APTT (among others who would save the day) make the mistake of considering taxation in such a way. All that need be done from there is make it a uniform rate, and the argument that it is Constitutional is quite convincing. But to tax simply means to burden. Nothing is implied or expressed that tax nesseciates anything more than that, such a a rate or sum of money. With that in mind…

      Proper rules in lending induces price inflation to the extent that individuals lend to government, with the resulting price inflation borne by all regardless if any one person lends or not. Those who choose to retain wealth in not lending will dishoard some wealth in the face of price inflation caused by government spending. Those who lend, in turn, are lending some of their capital gains (savings), and so already have the wealth to bear the burden of price inflation caused by government spending. Thus lending is an equal burden, a natural taxation which results from the sum total of free, individual action.

      Taxation as an amount of money to be collected argues numbers and equations and all other manner of economist-speak that says removing individual, free action will work somehow or other. It’ll be just right for Goldilocks, but not the Bear family, so you wind up with a mobocracy in which everyone becomes divided against each other. And if anything is going to put this country into a coffin it is that growing division that results from interfernce in what should be a free market… not a lack of continuing to play the taxation-as-money-collection game.

      “Many have the fantasy of turning the tables on the weasels and tying them up. Rarely happens.”

      Except that I’m not fantasizing. It’s all very much doable, as doable as the crimes were that made this correction nessecary.

      But even if they are let off the hook, a mere 100 ounces of gold is plenty of gold atoms to make money with. Heck, the world for that matter. Of course, do it that way and a lot of people won’t be compensated while those with the stolen, lion’s share will live well, as will their generations yet to come.

      So gold and silver would fail as well, so long as certain things are not done. If the power to fund government at their choosing is not put back in the hands of all citizens, then gold and silver money are as sensible as a screen door on a submarine.

    • Rich July 5, 2010, 4:49 pm

      @Benjamin July 5, 2010 at 12:57 am

      We are the elders at the government gates:

      “a) …Government is not, nor ever will be, a venture to increase productivity of capital…”

      Agreed. While some argue defense R&D created electronics, internet, microwaves, nano space age materials, the question always is, at what cost versus the private sector?, with government cost overruns notorious.

      “b) When reaching into circulating capital to spend on nonproductive ventures, it stands to reason that the flow of capital into savings is going to be interrupted to at least some degree, yielding price inflation (and worse, interfering with the flow of capital into and out of savings until circulating capital itself suffers. ie, The “never-ending” inflation/deflation debate that clearly ends with total depression, or evaporation of the currency).”

      This is in essence Jubilee.

      “Which is to say that anything but a free market provision of government _is_ bad government.”

      Are you saying all government should be privatized, how government is going around Constitutional Civil Rights with Black Ops off the Budget, Citizen Kills, “Patriot Acts” with immunity, Renditions, Vaccine immunities and the usual bureaucratic inefficiency and intolerance?

      “But to tax simply means to burden…”

      Of course it does, and that is in essence why uber-Libertarian candidates and concepts fail to gain traction in a real world that requires moral administrators, courts, congresses, firemen, militia and policemen.

      “Proper rules in lending induces price inflation to the extent that individuals lend to government, with the resulting price inflation borne by all regardless if any one person lends or not….”

      One could say that protecting property rights is the proper role of government that encourages the productivity that offsets tax inflation. Proverbs 22:7 and Shakespeare’s Polonius in Hamlet Act 1 Scene 3 warned us of the folly of lending:

      The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.

      Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
      For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
      And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

      “…you wind up with a mobocracy in which everyone becomes divided against each other.”

      Exactly the Constitutional wisdom of a uniform tax like APTT rather than tax rates decided by politics.

      “Except that I’m not fantasizing. It’s all very much doable, as doable as the crimes were that made this correction necessary…”

      Let us all know when Wall Street Treasury Secretaries, Congresses, Courts and Presidents are in prison for bait and switches including raiding and spending the Social Security Trust and failing to execute their Constitutional Oaths…

      “…If the power to fund government at their choosing is not put back in the hands of all citizens, then gold and silver money are as sensible as a screen door on a submarine.”

      We agree wholeheartedly, thus the importance of retiring every incumbent that did not protect, serve and defend our Constitution, and putting the offenders in prison to take the place of the potters and tax protestors.

    • Benjamin July 5, 2010, 10:36 pm

      @Rich: “Are you saying all government should be privatized…?”

      No, no, no. Good heavens no! What I’m saying is that providing government be subject to what the market will bear, as government is as subject to the forces of the market as anything else is.

      “One could say that protecting property rights is the proper role of government that encourages the productivity that offsets tax inflation.”

      Yes, one could say that and why not? After all, it makes perfect sense to say so. But if a tree may or may not fall in the forest, what reason to pay people to listen for them? It costs in capital as well as idling manpower that can best serve elsewhere. But just as we can’t always afford the same level of government, we also cannot afford a greater, same, or lesser level of exporation and investment. The two are in constant flux, and best way to deal with that is by giving people the liberty to move their money into whichever they figure is needed.

      But government would never fall to zero, any more than private ventures would. In fact, it’s impossible for them to. The very fact that you don’t want anarchy, Rich, is how I know enough government would be paid for. Many others think the same way, myself included. In fact, this would be all the more true if…

      “The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.”

      Well, gold and silver aren’t the _final_ word. And of course, that’s the point of a representative system of government. What sort of America would we be if our reps in Congress didn’t bicker about something at the request of it’s citizens and their many views and opinions? I don’t know about you, but I would really miss that if it weren’t here. I live for debate! 🙂

      So at times, nonlending citizens would complain about too much or too little lending, as is their right and obligation. As a result, Congress would bicker on their behalf and either the Treasury would find itself repaying bonds eariler, if found to be too rich, or forcing lending to take place as I pointed out earlier, if found to be too poor.

      As for slavery, there is no slavery in honor any more than there is honor in slavery. All that results from proper lending and governance is a civilized obligation to return in full what it was loaned. And this could ALWAYS be done, provided they don’t directly spend what they are given. That is the point of a Treasury-issued medium, which expires according the terms of the loan creating that certificate. The coin (or whatever) stays put while the medium circulates on a time limit.

      But let’s get back to APTT and what I said above about “all the more true, if”. Not wanting to come across as nothing but a naysayer, I would like to suggest something for it…

      Set it up to work the same way as I’ve been describing for gold/silver lending. They could take the money under the terms of the accountholder (mimimum 90 days, maximum 30 years), spending not the money itself, but a discounting medium of exchange which, once fully expired, returns the money in full to the taxpayer.

      The medium of exchange issued by the Treasury, whether some kind of special paper or flagged digital unit, would be set to expire at some future date, reducing it’s purchasing power with each passing day til that date. So it wouldn’t be taxable, rather discounted by the timeline of the loan. The rate of taxation on actual money remains uniform of course, but the return date is variable. Aside from always having some for a level of government, this would do a few things which in my opinion are nessecary…

      First, at the beginning of each spending cycle, actual money would be idled to the exact extent that it was taxed. The Treasury medium would circulate more, but as the expiration date neared, more actual money would transact to restock the Treasury, as it would be nessecary to transact more idled money to make up for the greater discounted amount. This would bridge the problem of diminishing returns that I mentioned earlier. Not as many dollars would need to be spent all the time, and every dollar taxed would be a dollar returned in full. Government spending would also be more limited on price inflation while people received their money back to better deal with it.

      This also solves the problem of paying back what govt owes to many of it’s citizens. Social security program would be stopped, along with all other entitlment programs. Existing payments due would be paid back with discounting money, and so as to assit it in retaining value so that grandma and grandpa don’t go broke from inflation… it would not all be paid back immediately. The younger would have to wait ther turn still, so we leave retirement age at 65 (or wherever) regardless if the person actually retires or not, and just keep paying them until there is no one left to pay. After that, tax rate can reduce.

      And FINALLY at long last, though certainly not the last thing… Disolve the Fed and IRS (!), thereby eliminating much personal debt caused by usury on mortgages and other debt. Usury already charged should be taken into consideration vs any remaining debt, most likely making many people outright owners of their homes and other property held on credit.

      The only problem remaining is that of the vast wealth the central banking system holds. Once abolished and dealt with, what becomes of all that gold? Can’t very well just leave it laying around, can we?

      Well, rest assured that I have a good idea as to what should be done with it! 😉

  • Benjamin July 2, 2010, 9:33 am

    I’ve said more than enough on this important matter of the people vs the government and banks, and I feel really stupid because I could’ve summed it up perfectly through the one, the ONLY… The Hot Rod himself, Rowdy Roddy Piper!!! (warning: old “wrestling” footage ahead)

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3foop_piper-s-pit-w-jimmy-hart_sport

    I say it’s time the little man behind the curtain becomes the little man tied up in the chair! Whaddya say?!

    Yeah! The Boss is back…!

    No, wait a minute. Just who IS the boss here? Anyone seen the Boss?!

  • JohnJay July 2, 2010, 5:31 am

    Will debt forgiveness work?
    Works just fine!
    Ask AIG et al!
    Ha! Ha! Ha!

    • Benjamin July 2, 2010, 7:59 am

      AIG didn’t really borrow anything. It was the other way around. Government borrowed from them (and from numerous others, including the Fed). In the current system, tax revenues are to pay bondholders.

      The idea was to keep taxes well below the actual level of debt. In doing this, the money stayed in circulation. It was believed that in doing this, a circulating FRN would eventually pay off all the personal/consumer debt. And because that was believed, the banks drove up consumer debt levels to the point of guaranteed default.

      Not something to win them an Einstein of the year award, but they didn’t borrow. Instead, the central bank increasingly stepped in to loan to government, so as to keep the money flowing to fulfill the silly promises made. When those promises failed to be fulfilled, they were “bailed out” in the sense that they were given money that tax revenues were already supposed to pay them.

      So they didn’t borrow. They STOLE!

  • Pastor Steve Wright July 2, 2010, 1:29 am

    I believe it is faulty exegesis to take what was a specific instruction to the nation of Israel, establised as a theocracy, and apply it to any other circumstances. For starters, one might recall the intended, permanent, division of land among the tribes was a primary reason for the Sabbatical year. Permanent ownership of the land was never to leave the family tribe.

    The Scriptures clearly declare the wicked borrows and does not repay. Likewise they declare the borrower is servant to the lender. There is no contradiction with Jubilee if we remember the context of the Mosaic Law for the theocracy of Israel.

    I do not think we should equate a forgiveness of debt with the spirit or intention of the Law of Moses for Israel.

    If we forgive the debts, then fine, and I’m always interested in the economic theories of those wiser than I, but let’s not apply a Biblical justification.

    • F. Beard July 2, 2010, 1:00 pm

      If we forgive the debts, then fine, and I’m always interested in the economic theories of those wiser than I, but let’s not apply a Biblical justification. Pastor Steve Wright

      Actually, I find the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to be a wonderful source of economic wisdom. We would not be in these troubles if the economists had heeded Scripture. The Bible teaches with regard to:

      1. loaning at interest to one’s countrymen
      2. debt forgiveness
      3. the goodness of profit
      4. the evil of taking profits and interest
      5. inflation
      6. hoarding (the buried talent)
      7. proper payment of one’s workers
      8. full employment (the idle harvesters)
      9. basic provision for the poor (gleaning, the tithe for the poor, etc.)
      10. kindness toward aliens (immigrants, I suppose)

  • MootDispute July 1, 2010, 3:02 am

    Separation of money and state? Too much debt? What about money itself, sovereign currencies? Can Christians of this world attune to the Spirit on injustice and threats to life wrought by our monetary system – debt-based fiat money, currency based on nothing tangible? This calls Christians worldwide to repent of their apathy, envy and addictive games to discern how Jesus’ message of the coming Kingdom relates to our global debt-based monetary systems. The gospel record does NOT rescind the old testament law. It says sin is transgression of the law, missing the mark – missing the spirit or intent of the law. Biblical ideals on money are its injunctions: {1} against theft (say, “debt monetization” and fiat seigniorage); {2} against usury (interest charged for enriching oneself at the expense of others, especially the poor); and {3} for just weights and measures (tangibility). “Debt-free” alternative monetary means toward those ends exist (cf. “The End of Money and the Future of Civilization” by T. H. Greco, 2009). Christian witness for peacemaking – giving the Spirit opportunity to change minds and hearts – must consider discipleship toward monetary progress. Ruinous actions of financial powers-that-be have created a credit infested and bankrupt world. A positive, life-sustaining, civilization-lifting change in the economy is IMPOSSIBLE unless Jesus-driven spirituality intervenes in hearts of Christians worldwide. So, might such narrow path lead to tolerance and inter-religious unity. I pray.

    “Sabbath economics is an unfamiliar notion to North American churches because it has been marginalized by biblical interpreters.” Economic implications of “Sabbath economics” tradition have been explicated: “The standard of economic and social justice is woven into the warp and weft of the Bible. Pull this strand and the whole fabric unravels. At the heart of this witness is the call to Sabbath and Jubilee, a tradition we might summarize in three axioms [re-ordered] …

    1. The world as created by God is abundant, with enough for everyone — provided that human communities restrain their appetites and live within limits;
    3. the prophetic message calls people to the practice of [wealth] redistribution, and is thus characterized as “good news” to the poor;
    2. disparities in wealth are not “natural” but the result of human sin, and must be mitigated within the community of faith through the regular practice of wealth redistribution.

    The Bible contends that this Sabbath theology of abundant grace and this Jubilee ethic of wealth and power redistribution is the only way out of our historical and persistent slavery to Debt systems, with their competing theologies of meritocracy and alienating practices of wealth and power concentration.”

    Source: “The Biblical Vision of Sabbath Economics” by Ched Myers (2001). Online excerpts quoted: Ched Myers’ foreword to Ross and Gloria Kinsler, “The Biblical Jubilee and the Struggle for Life” (1999).

  • F. Beard July 1, 2010, 2:35 am

    I agree that a gold based money is superior to fiat legal tender but I doubt it is optimum. FB to Chris T

    No, I must retract that statement. I’m not sure that gold is superior to legal tender fiat. But I am sure that liberty is superior to any government imposed standard. However, I suppose that government fiat must needs be legal tender but ONLY for government debt.

  • Chris T. July 1, 2010, 1:54 am

    Rich:

    “The current US Transaction figures are over $1 quadrillion.”
    Or about as much more as would be the case if you adjust the 860T by SGS’s real CPI numbers…

    “Conjecturing ATP may only cover 6% of the budget borders on propaganda”

    Hardly:
    Feige claims the savings by his system (by making the inefficiencies of the present system — accountants, more accountants, filings, forms, etc, etc– obsolete) to be about 200B.
    3.5T budget x 6% = 200B.
    So, my 6% is not conjecture, but based upon Feige’s own numbers as per APT.

    “Already IRS tax revenues fell -30+% each the last two years.”

    Good, exactly what we need, the mess they have created is finally coming home to roost.

    “Medicare and Social Security are spending more than they take in now”

    Of course, the natural outcome of any Ponzi-scheme, which can never be prevented from collapsing at some point.

    “More of the same as we roll over into the abyss is destructive madness.”

    This is an abyss that gets deeper the longer one takes to hit it. Do it soon, and it can be survived, drag it out, and it is deadly.

    “Destruction of government is a nice fantasy until it happens and the military drug cartel takes over at gunpoint.”

    But when the savior already acts like the drug cartel, whats the difference? If you are ambushed by someone, do you care if it’s Peter or Paul?
    Plus your bgeyman, the drug cartel in this instance, ONLY exists because of the entity you think protects you from it. This government created the threat you fear.

    “So how are we going to get to less taking and more producing”

    Well certainly NOT with TT, because its implicit philosophy aspires to raise as much as the system it intends to replace.
    So the current federal revenue of 2.2Tr. is just raised differently, thats all.

    “…opposition party talks about cutting corporate taxes while approving government spending increases?…
    Corporations paid just 7% of …[r]evenues in 2009 Isn’t it about time for a little more level playing field?”

    No. There shouldn’t be ANY corporate taxes, because they are judicial, fictional entities. The “money” they make goes somewhere, and there it can be taxed.
    What really should happen is to relegate corporations back to what our founding fathers intended, and that did NOT include legal personhood. Just another one of Scotus’ corruptions of the Constitution.
    Without legal personhood no “corporate free speech” or other pseudo bill of rights guarantees to corporations, etc.

    But of course, it is at the end of the money trail, that the taxing breaks down into the cleptocracy we see today.
    It is the middle that is, and has been robbed by the elite, the paper aristocracy, for a century now. This aristocracy willingly pays the little coin they do to make things appear alright, and they make sure some of that goes to the bottom to keep them pacified and supportive.
    Marx and Robin Hood were wrong, they don’t steal from the poor, because they have nothing to steal.
    The rich steal from the haves, and give it to the have-mosts, themselves. Marx was their tool, as was FDR. What the overt tax(es) take from these elites, the covert tax (inflation) returns 10x over.
    We have had here the infl/defl. debate over and over, but from 1913-2010, only inflation can be seen. No amount of deflation will take us back to the 1913 dollar.

    “he productive benefits of replacing the failing income tax system with transaction taxes”
    200B according to Feige, not enought to make a difference.

    “TT’s would bring trading costs back up to 1980s levels. ”

    And why are lower trading costs a problem?
    All of our problems since 1982 have been caused by loose money, and the bubbles this created (Mises’ crack-up boom). If too much trading is a problem, you stop what enabled it, not tax it.

    “Vanguard’s John Bogle, BRK’s Warren Buffett, Lou Gerstner, Nobel Laureates Solow, Stiglitz and Tobin, the head of AFL-CIO, Summers did, even Geithner”

    And what a fine list of the paper aristocracy you give their. The three Nobel’s are the hired hacks chosen to provide the justifications for our current system, as was JK Galbraith and Samuelson before them. Warren Buffet? Just because he was super succesfull working in within the system he has supported for so long, does not give him greater credibility. Just listen to the deplorable comments he gave at the talk following the premiere of IOUSA. He is one of them.
    AFL-CIO, no comment.
    Larry Summers? The anti-gold advocate par excellence?
    All these people you cite are either the elite that is at fault, or they work for them.

    Where is Hayek, or a Jim Rogers, or Ron Paul in that list? Or maybe even our host 🙂 ? Of course there ain’t many Nobels, others than FvH, because the laughable Swedes control that.

    This idea of the TT wants to sound like a free lunch for most, and it implies that that free lunch will be paid for by the “elite”.
    Never happen. Because the elite controls, and gets its free lunch from the rest of us. They would put this system in place, and they will make sure that, in whatever way, they won’t hold the tab at the end of the day.
    And THEN, they will only have to adjust one itty, bitty number by a little bit, nothing else, to get another course paid for by us. We will make it even easier to be plundered.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 8:46 pm

      Chris,

      Did I really misunderstand your complaint that a 6% savings on APT from the current income tax system would not cover the budget?

      Feige’s and other well-studied advocates of the low Transaction Tax rate figure it not only saves 6% in calculation, compliance and enforcement costs, (maybe a conservative underestimated figure).

      APTT is also affordable, fair, liberating, simple, uniform, voluntary and progressive, as those with more money can choose more financial transactions, more productive, as it removes disincentives, and increases the money multiplier by being a much lower tax rate.

      $360 a year taxes is a better deal for much of the disappearing middle class, who currently pay most of the income taxes.

      Feige’s and others’ calculations find APTT more than covers the costs of all local, state and federal governments, perhaps a temptation for politicians to spend more and more by not replacing the other unproductive taxes

      The worry is it becomes a UN tax on top of all others.

      That’s where we the people as educated and informed voters come in.

      If we don’t do our job cutting deadwood destructive incumbents this Fall, and leave voting to the unions and mass media brainwashing, it may be game over.

      http://www.apttax.com/faq.php

      Not too sure we would enjoy the actual collapse of government.

      As government gets more desperate for operating cash, it does things like break contracts, seize property without due process, double DMV fees and arbitrarily drop all government employees to minimum wage as the Governator just did yesterday, leading to more defaults and system tilt.

      When the system breaks down, we live under martial law where people with the biggest money and weapons take over. Look at BP running the Gulf now, after giving 0 $20 Billion, for a preview.

      Just one example locally is the armed Forest Service wanting to tear down mansions on “their” newly acquired lands that could serve as community centers.

      Do we really want to live in the feudal warlord or National Guard Camp society that some say FEMA, DHS and HAL/BKR Wackenhut are preparing?

      (The US Military has the biggest guns and so far only occasionally violated posse commitatus – we may find out in Iran, as Israel did in Lebanon, that hardened Loral guided missiles and the latest Sukoil counter-measures can outmaneuvre and destroy 70 year-old technology like 3 aircraft carriers, attack groups and escort submarine countermeasures including biologicals, bunker busters, chemicals, DU, EMP, tactical nukes, shutting down the Straits and driving oil prices to at least $300 by eliminating 40% of the maritime oil supply overnight. Curious timing with the Gulf off line and all.)

      Good point on the government drug cartel:

      Taliban fundamentalists eradicated poppy cultivation after the Soviets and before the US went there. Nine years later, to finance the war, Afghanistan is again the number one producer of opium and heroin, with rumours of cash and drug traffic to the USA via Air Force bases in the middle east.

      We do not have to dig too deep in the Vietnam Burma Warlord Golden Triangle or Iran Contra Colombian Panama Oliver North diary drug traffic to find covert US Government involvement.

      Alcohol and drugs made illegal under Princeton US Treaty of Versailles World War I President Woodrow Wilson blowback, created the Black Market Al Capones, Bronfman’s, Kennedy’s et al of yesterday.

      Re “But when the savior already acts like the drug cartel, whats the difference?”

      Huh? Seriously suggesting the Brit/US/Pharm drug cartel is no different from the Bloods, Crips, MS13, Russian Mafiya, Triads, Yakuza loose border security corrupt law enforcement created and imported?

      Do we really want assassination, decapitation, genital neckties and ransom kidnappings to become the American way of life because our law enforcement is out of taxpayer money and taking it on the side?

      Tarring APTT because “the current federal revenue of 2.2Tr. is just raised differently, that’s all,” misses by a wide mark the point of fairer, more productive, simpler, uniform Constitutional taxation, with liberty and justice for all.

      If we truly want lower taxes and smaller government, we stop kvetching and vote for it. We throw out all bum politicians that vote for bigger government and higher hidden taxes, which includes just about all of them.

      “There shouldn’t be ANY corporate taxes, because they are judicial, fictional entities.”

      Surely you jest, when all they pay now is 7% of Federal Revenues, while controlling the majority of income and wealth.

      Everyone would become a corporation to avoid taxes. The richest also have their tax-exempt foundations working on population control.

      http://www.whale.to/b/rockefeller_q.html

      ‘You know, gentlemen, that I do not owe any personal income tax. But nevertheless, I send a small check, now and then, to the Internal Revenue Service out of the kindness of my heart.’ – David Rockefeller, before a Congressional committee

      “Marx and Robin Hood were wrong,”

      Marx was reportedly on Nathan Rothschild’s bankroll and Hitler reportedly the illegitimate grandson of Salomon Rothschild via his maid Matild Schueckelgruber (a corruption of money grubber?)

      http://hidhist.wordpress.com/hitler/was-hitler-a-rothschild/

      Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin were reportedly funded by the House of Rothschild.

      http://fufor.twoday.net/stories/3248889/

      Interestingly, the daughter of Al Gore, whose father benefitted from Hammer Communist Occidental Petroleum bribes, married a descendant of the same Jacob Schiff that financed Japan’s War successful war against the Czar that laid the groundwork for the Russian Communist Revolution.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karenna_Gore_Schiff

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff

      The Rockefellers and Windsors reportedly funded Mao.

      http://www.whale.to/b/rockefeller_q.html

      Many despotic tyrants needed funds for their dirty works. Ford, Prescott Walker Bush and Rockefeller banks and corporations reportedly traded with the enemy during WWII.

      http://wwwthesixthestate.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-bush-family-name-and-wealth-was.html

      (For a fascinating if apocryphal hidden tinfoil history of the Bush family, read:
      http://proliberty.com/observer//20070405.htm)

      Henry Ford had a life-sized portrait of Adolf Hitler on his office wall next to his desk.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

      “What the overt tax(es) take from these elites, the covert tax (inflation) returns 10x over.”

      Inflation’s a beach, and the mechanism is obviously breaking down with a money multiplier below unity and asset defaults and price declines wiping out bank balance sheets.

      The rich write tax laws to shelter their income to pay no taxes. Others avoid taxes by owning municipal bonds. That’s why the uniform Constitutional APTT is fair and productive.

      “from 1913-2010, only inflation can be seen. No amount of deflation will take us back to the 1913 dollar.”

      We had decades of mostly deflation (negative inflation) from 1920 to 1940 and sporadically in the 50s and 60s:

      http://www.gocurrency.com/articles/stories-inflation.htm

      Deflation is inevitable when declining assets, debts, derivatives, mortgages and unfunded government agency mandates exceed the GDP by over a factor of ten to one, growing defaults that could cascade into -99% hyper-deflation overnight.

      Why does the Gold Eagle have $50 face value? Is it just par value?

      The present monetary system is broken, and only debt Jubilee can fix it. How many Americans own enough gold to survive two decades more of this? How many more times can unfair non-uniform income taxes be raised with diminishing returns? 0 and company don’t even have a budget for next year!

      “And what a fine list of the paper aristocracy you give…All these people you cite are either the elite that is at fault, or they work for them.”

      Ad hominem attacks of power “elites” do not obscure facts.

      (You can add Columbia Economics Professor Jeffrey Sachs to the list of those supporting the transaction Robin Hood tax. That does not make him or anyone supporting APTT wrong.)

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/18/robin-hood-tax-benefits

      Anyone who takes more than a few moments thinking about a voluntary transaction tax versus continuing coercive unproductive income tax failing without due process, usually wakes up from the monopoly media dream.

      The typical knee-jerk investment argument by those who trade for a living is the transaction tax would put them out of business.

      Those like Bogle and Buffett who invest and trade for a living, plus the fact we had a working TT from 1914 to 1965, and still have exchange fees, stamp and transfer taxes, dispute the Wall Street straw man.

      Hayek believed voluntary markets need accurate information to work best. Do we agree government controlled by the Fed and funded by the IRS failed that test?

      Adventure Capitalist Investment Biker Father Rogers isn’t living in Singapore because he loves the US income tax.

      Ron Paul supported my campaign to Renew Congress in 1994. On 6 March 2006 he opposed the idea of a UN Tobin Tax going to “the very dictators whose reckless policies have impoverished their citizens.”
      He supports the Constitution, which calls for uniform taxes. The IRS is hardly uniform.

      Why no comment on the AFL-CIO?

      Unions, particularly those for government workers, buy votes out of union dues. I recall campaigning at a Union Hall in San Mateo where a s**t-faced union worker bragged they would bury all people with money.

      Indeed, union candidate 0 stiffed majority GM Bondholders with just 10% and 15% warrants. He gave the remaining 72% corpus to the Governments of Canada, Ontario, USA and 17.5% to the UAW.

      Maybe the timing of the GM sale will be better than C and pay back all the taxpayers;

      http://jalopnik.com/5274260/who-owns-the-new-gm

      “Of course there ain’t many Nobels, others than FvH, because the laughable Swedes control that.”

      Norway decided and handed out Nobel Peace Prizes, including Obama, Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, Kofi Anan, Yasser Arafat, UN Peacekeeping Forces, Henry Kissinger.

      http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/

      “This idea of the TT wants to sound like a free lunch for most, and it implies that that free lunch will be paid for by the “elite”. Never happen. Because the elite controls, and gets its free lunch from the rest of us.”

      The APTT is no free lunch, but a uniform tax as our Constitution requires. As Judge Learned Hand ruled, defending the Federal Reserve against the State of Maryland, the power to tax is the power to destroy.

      Thus it is very important for American citizens to end the non-Constitutional Fed and IRS and implement the 28 basis point universal American transaction tax.

      The elite only control us with our tacit cooperation, permission and surrender.

      Our best, most prosperous years are ahead of US, when we live the American Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

      Happy Fourth All…

    • Rich July 5, 2010, 3:51 pm

      Schwarzenegger apparently going out with a bang.
      Not only is State Controller John Chiang refusing to pay the minimum wage state checks the Governator ordered, six of 12 state employee unions negotiated better than minimum wage deals by cutting pensions and days off.
      As usual, this has been tied up in Courts for two years.
      http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/14462/california-labor-law-code-40.html
      We have similar on the Federal level, with 0 and his Congress refusing to submit a Budget as required by our Constitution, hoping to sweep the mess under the monopoly media carpet until after the mid-term elections.
      Problems with State of CA a decade or so ago not paying a contract in full or on time. Appeals to the legislature, Senate and governor led not to the State following its own laws, but termination of the contract.
      This is how politicians who do not appreciate or know business work…

  • F. Beard July 1, 2010, 1:18 am

    By allowing great increases in productivity to have their natural effect: falling prices, the deflation everyone fears. For, with anything like a fixed supply of money, greater productivity must lead to falling prices. Chris T

    I agree that a gold based money is superior to fiat legal tender but I doubt it is optimum.

    Your tyrant point:

    if you were right, than tyrants would LOVE gold, yet they despise gold money. Chris T

    Yet they hold vast amounts of it. Liberty in money creation, usage and acceptance certainly permits gold as money, so be my guest. I just ask that common stock be allowed to compete on a level playing field, too.

    • Benjamin July 1, 2010, 1:32 am

      @Chris T: They LOVE gold. Just not in your hands, and certainly not under your terms. Remember what I told you the other day about ratio trading. They can run a much more sophisticated and profitable game than I can, that’s for sure.

      @F Beard: “Yet they hold vast amounts of it.”

      No response required, but something to remember…

      That is why I (among others, like Bix Weir) say redistribute according to social security payments due. Weigh that debt vs the Fed gold supply, redistribute, and the monopoly is busted. Start lending as I decribed all throughout, and the monopoly stays busted because neither banks nor government can come to monopolize the supply again.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:29 pm

      True, most emperors clipped or coated coins to counterfeit them, then took the Chinese idea of paper money to create fiat money based on nothing but central banker monopoly by law and fractional reserves causing inflation.
      What we’re basically talking about here is counterfeiting illustrating Gresham’s Law.
      Napoleon commanded armies because he fed them, liquored them and paid them Jakob Rothschild gold, while brother Nathan financed the British Army.
      War profiteering for banks and corporations on the backs, pockets and coffins of little people…

    • Rich July 5, 2010, 3:38 pm

      Natural deflation from increased productivity is one thing.
      Deflation from debt default quite another.
      It appears we may face the second…

  • F. Beard July 1, 2010, 12:16 am

    @Ben,
    I don’t follow your logic right now but that’s OK. May the best monies win on a level playing field.

    • Benjamin July 1, 2010, 1:27 am

      Aw, gee, and we were just getting to the good part. But progress is progress, and this, after all, Rich’s topic on Jubilee. Looks like I got carried away again!

      Til next time

  • DAN June 30, 2010, 11:53 pm

    loss of cash = loss of freedom

    we want limitrd government not bigger

    the CONSTITUTION has the proper taxes, excise and tariffs, all the rest are used for control and robbery of citizens

    end the FED and abolish the IRS

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 11:11 pm

    Then if you wish, Ben, you could have a corporation with 100% of your assets in gold and lend out your common stock as money for interest with or without fractional reserves. FB

    Actually you might find it hard to find borrowers since in practice it might be impossible to repay your loans with interest unless you spent some common stock into circulation.

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 11:51 pm

      “Actually you might find it hard to find borrowers since in practice it might be impossible to repay your loans with interest unless you spent some common stock into circulation.”

      Not at all. Loaning at interest is nothing like compounding debt “with interest”. I would be cheaper than usury, though not of infinite supply, so my loans would probably be of shorter timeline, with more frequent repayment, as my loanable supply ran down. That’s the only difference.

      Concerning creation of more common stock for a gold loan…

      Let’s assume a certificate dated 90 days, representing exactly one ounce of silver. By day 45, it would take two such certificates to buy an ounce of silver on the spot market. By the last day, nearly 100 because the value of the discounted cert would be ~1%.

      The point of making such a trade (final day of certs legal tender status) would be, obviously, to dishoard wealth to another seeking to save past whatever terms their cert(s) stock is going to be valued at in the future. I need to spend right now, they need to save, see? So it’s an even exchange, provided that the numbers behind it all are honest and honorable.

      So just replace “cert” with “common stock”, and you can see where it would be the opposite of what you described. More CS would not need to be created, as the terms of the loan would depend on what has _already_ been created vs what will or will not in the future (the contract between issuer and holders of that money would tell me the story).

    • Rich July 5, 2010, 3:36 pm

      @ Benjamin June 30, 2010 at 11:51 pm

      “my loans would probably be of shorter timeline, with more frequent repayment, as my loanable supply ran down.”

      That’s where the Treasury is today, with cash funds in short supply relative to demand, the average maturity of Treasuries just under five years, hoping to extend to 66 months by the end of 2012.

      We shall learn the actual liquidity preferences of the markets if tax revenues continue to not cover government expenditures…

      http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE65L2CA20100622

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 10:38 pm

    Then what is the problem??? 🙂 Ben

    There is no problem as long as common stock is allowed to compete on a level playing field with other monies. Then if you wish, Ben, you could have a corporation with 100% of your assets in gold and lend out your common stock as money for interest with or without fractional reserves.

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 10:46 pm

      Nice to see we can finally reach an agreeable conclusion! High five! Now… to implement all this stuff for real…

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:16 pm

      Jim Turk’s GoldMoney tried to do that out of Jersey with a GoldX idea I had in the 90s and took to BAC, MC and VISA, but his fees and spreads are prohibitive for everyday business…

    • Benjamin July 2, 2010, 5:58 pm

      @Rich said

      But one example does not disprove the hypothesis, as in a free market it’s entirely possible to find all manner of rates and fees.

      Of course, it’s impossible to say what the result would be if banks would break away from the central authority, meaning how much debt they would retain and what the value of their money would be. Too, it’s impossible to say what would happen to gold, both existing and new supply. What would circulate vs save, how much new production would circulate vs save etc. A variety of contracts on new production and savings requirements would emerge on both gold and for privately issued money, making beneficial exchange between them more possible than it is today.

      That said, I think gold and silver would win out as the money of choice because it’s just so much simpler that way.

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 10:08 pm

    The problem of lending money is that there is much confusion as to what interest is. It’s been mixed up with usury, … Ben

    There is not need to borrow or lend money at all, common stock is an ideal money form:

    Common stock as money:
    1) allows assets to be purchased directly without borrowing conventional money.
    2) shares wealth at the same time it purchases it.
    3) Since no lending is required, deflation is not a concern.
    4) no lending = no lending at interest thus abiding with Deuteronomy 23:19-20
    5) Any price inflation is born by the owners of the issuing corporation since all money recipients are by definition owners of the corporation.
    6) The argument about the correct amount of money is rendered mute since the money holders can vote on how much new money (common stock) is to be created.
    7) is decentralized since there are thousands of corporations.
    8) No precious metals or commodity money is required though it is easily accommodated.

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 10:30 pm

      “No precious metals or commodity money is required though it is easily accommodated.”

      Then what is the problem??? 🙂

      I never said the two couldn’t co-exist, only that our government be excluded from private money and contracts (except through enforcing contracts). Surely their votes on expansion and valuation would outweight mine in forming any contract of quantity and reserve requirements. And they would have on their side any number of people who, not realizing what any of this means, press them to monoplize me out of the process.

      Best to keep them on a gold/silver certificate system for now. Maybe in a few eons, after understanding saturates the general population, something like that could be tried. Until then, since gold can be accomodated… Let’s go with that instead.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:14 pm

      The concept of current government as a bad referee/umpire with vested interests for certain team owners…

  • Rich June 30, 2010, 9:35 pm
    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 10:37 pm

      Heck, why allow anyone without a phd to say anything at all?! An attack of free speech if I ever saw one. Fortunately, he’s just throwing a tantrum which is so typical of the elite over there across the big pond.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:12 pm

      AEP perhaps describing the arrogant tyranny of the Fed, which brooks no discussion, let alone full audit or opposition. Who has their boot on the throat of the quasi private Fed? Perhaps an institution that no longer serves the people should be reigned in, and if that is not possible, closed. Fed banks treat our money as though it were theirs, and some courts have ruled that it is, the FDIC $250,000 guarantee just a charade. Has anyone tried to withdraw amounts over $10,000 lately?…

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 9:24 pm

    Of course, to get there we would need much, much, much, much, much… more technological progress to drive down the cost of living so low such that atoms of gold (or anywhere near, for that matter) would be of use.

    Money can’t limit anything. Technoligcal progress, or lack thereof rather, is the only limit, utlimately. Ben

    Ah yes, Rothbard’s argument that any reasonable amount of money in an economy is sufficient. True, I reckon but it is changes in the amount of money that can be disastrous. A huge gold strike could cause huge inflation and bankers calling in their gold loans could cause disastrous deflation. The problem is the concept of lending money itself:

    “You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

    “You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess.
    Deuteronomy 23:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 9:53 pm

      The problem of lending money is that there is much confusion as to what interest is. It’s been mixed up with usury, but interest is simply a repayment schedule, so 10% annual interest, twice annual, would be a five year loan because…

      100 principle x .10 x 2 = 20 repaid every year…
      20 x 5 = 100 paid in full.

      The cost to borrow money is of course the down payment and/or any collateral. And that is entirely up to the lender. There is much to be said for both, however, and I don’t think the Bible would consider those usury. Down payments keep savings intact, and collateral can be used to reduce debt should the borrower default. Neither are _strictly_ nessecary, but it’s wiser, imv, to utilize both wherever possible.

      As for forgiveness, that, too, is entirely up to the lender, in a free market. But not when it is government and citizen. Govt is obligated to return, in full, what the citizen loans to them. Everything government puts down for the loan is simply it’s own honor to keep to the contract. They are not charged anything, just obligated to return the coin at the specified date. What they would use is expiring certificates that causes mild price inflation only. Those expiration dates would of course coincide with the bond maturity date, at the lender’s schedule.

      So in using Treasury loans with gold/silver, one is not utilizing usury against government, nor against one’s fellow citizens.

      As for gold rushes ruining things, not really. Not guaranteed, anyway. It would all depend on what people put into circulation. What matters most concerning money is not so much it’s quantity, but the disparity between time and demand deposits, or circulation vs savings. But obviously, quantity comes into play. If you have only one gold coin the world in savings, but remove it into circulation… It’s value doesn’t change much at all, except on prices, for having been spent. To the extent that spending causes depletion of goods/services in the market is the extent that rushes are damaging.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:08 pm

      Interest causes inflation and deflation when it grows faster than the economy.
      We are talking debt, money and usury here while gold collapses.
      Any ideas?

  • warren June 30, 2010, 9:10 pm

    constitution: an established law or custom, the basic law in a politically organized body: the document containing such law.
    A weak publication at best when the people purporting to uphold it are the ones breaking it.

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 8:56 pm

    I don’t have to buy anything back from the Fed. Ben

    At $42/oz, gold would be a “steal” yet with the poetic justice of being legal.

    There is no other way than gold and silver to make them respect the concept of limited capital. Ben

    The trouble with gold and silver is that they limit the economic growth rate to the mining rate of those metals. Furthermore, they would be a strategic choke-point on the economy for tyrants to seek to corner. Liberty cannot be cornered by definition.

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 9:15 pm

      Gold and silver don’t need to limit anything, F Beard.
      Even if they were the only money available…

      150 decillion. That’s the number of gold atoms in the above-ground supply. It looks like this…

      150,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

      If one million people were to spend 1.5 quadrillion every year (each), they would need 1.5 trillion years of spending in order to run out of gold to spend.

      Of course, to get there we would need much, much, much, much, much… more technological progress to drive down the cost of living so low such that atoms of gold (or anywhere near, for that matter) would be of use.

      Money can’t limit anything. Technoligcal progress, or lack thereof rather, is the only limit, utlimately.

    • Chris T. July 1, 2010, 1:07 am

      “The trouble with gold and silver is that they limit the economic growth rate to the mining rate of those metals.”
      Friedmanite, nothing more, but wrong of course.
      The greatest single period of growth EVER enjoyed by any country for a prolonged time, was the last third of the 19th centuryin the US, when we were on that “contstraint”. How did it really better everyone’s lot?
      By allowing great increases in productivity to have their natural effect: falling prices, the deflation everyone fears. For, with anything like a fixed supply of money, greater productivity must lead to falling prices.

      Your tyrant point:

      if you were right, than tyrants would LOVE gold, yet they despise gold money. If you look anywhere where a transition took place from gold money to fiat money, you will find a decrease, not an increase in liberty. The decay that fiat brings about, leads to tyranny.
      Just like FDR, Hitler also force converted gold into Reichsmarks, and virtually none of the countries that dropped the pseudo-gold standard in the thirties were a beacon of freedom. Just think dictator Lincoln and his abolishment of gold money as a prime US example.

    • Rich July 4, 2010, 6:13 pm

      “The greatest single period of growth EVER enjoyed by any country for a prolonged time, was the last third of the 19th century in the US,”

      That period included the demonetization of silver and Panic of 1873, a 6-year US depression and 23 years of deflation that led to Presidential Candidate William Jennings Bryan “Don’t Crucify US on a Cross of Gold” Chicago campaign Speech in July 1896.

      Both Friedman and Greenspan, who advocated Gold as a hedge against inflation in Ayn Rand’s 1966 book of essays, Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, wrote me at Merrill and Stanford in the 1980s that the supply of gold (and silver) were too limited to replace dollar obligations (unless the dollar obligations deflate to $50 an ounce, possible and maybe even more likely than gold in the tens or hundreds of thousands with hyperdeflation triggered by a cascade of defaults and overall failure of the US Fractional Reserve Financial system bringing King Dollar back due to scarcity).

      Gold commercials, a powerful market force, currently 48.5% of the COT Comex open interest, do not like gold soaring to the $191,015 it would have to be for $5 Trillion of gold ever mined, fitting onto a basketball court, to back $755 Trillion of GDP, Debt, Derivatives and government agency promises 100%…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Gold_speech

  • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 8:55 pm

    Rich said: “Serving both God and mammon.”

    I doubt you just said that for no reason, Rich, so I’m wondering who you’re observing.

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 9:45 pm

      Certain corporate and government elites claiming to do both, wanting transaction taxes on top of the IRS, payroll taxes and VAT to increase government red tape in their purported wisdom.
      If we do not replace inflated income and triple payroll taxes with the uniform Transaction Tax, we may also get the VAT, now up to 25% in some Euro countries.
      Meanwhile, Mr Market, having churned all day, is heading to the Gulf for the close…

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 4:00 pm

      Who was it claiming to do God’s work at GS?…

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 7:50 pm

    The other half, return to people what was taken, that is the gold that their centralizing banking entity has bought up on the cheap, at our ongoing expense. Ben

    You are obsessed with gold aren’t you? Fine, buy it back from the Fed at $42 dollars/oz. I’ll insist instead on liberty in money creation and the rule of law. That would leave central banks and the moneyed elites looking like idolatrous fools as civilized monies reduced the value of their gold holdings to mere commodity value.

    Don’t play the central banks’ game, Ben. Liberty is the antidote to tyranny, not gold.

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 8:31 pm

      Serving both God and mammon.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
      Having said that, BA above 26.75 tangible book value at 4 times earnings is interesting. Reserves alone probably worth twice that….

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 8:43 pm

      And the rumble continues…

      “Fine, buy it back from the Fed at $42 dollars/oz.”

      I don’t have to buy anything back from the Fed. The accomplices of theives deserve none of the sanctions of civilized life.

      “I’ll insist instead on liberty in money creation and the rule of law.”

      We don’t differ on that point, except that government is supposed to be limited to gold and silver. We, on the other hand, are free to decide money for ourselves. But if you can’t keep government OUT of your civilized monies, then how would those civilized monies ever maintain a value to “mere commodities”. They wouldn’t. They become worth less than nothing. The present proves this.

      But it’s really quite simple. There is no other way than gold and silver to make them respect the concept of limited capital. Too, through lending to the Treasury, many lenders keep an eye on the government budget and their handling of money. If left to create their own, even if in limited amounts, there would be no lenders to keep them honest and open as to what they do with it. In a alot of ways, this why tax-and-spend is never going to work for a genuinely free society.

      “Don’t play the central banks’ game, Ben. Liberty is the antidote to tyranny, not gold.”

      Appreciate your concern, but I’m not the one doing anything that I shouldn’t be. Government is the multi-decillion ton elephant that disolved their limitations to jump on our boat and sink it. Tell _them_ to quit the games, and stay out of our business. I could use the support, you know. I mean, if even 10% more Americans would bother their reps about this like I do, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    • Chris T. July 1, 2010, 12:55 am

      It was the moneyed elites, and their tool, the central bank fo the US, that took freed gold money out of the equation.
      Somehow you think the ONE thing they have most fought for so long is their game?
      The actions of a century by these elites speak louder than any words.
      I would love to buy it back at $42 from the Government, I would buy KILOS, but they won’t sell, try it you’ll see.

    • Rich July 2, 2010, 3:59 pm

      “BA above 26.75 tangible book value”
      Meant BP…

  • Steve June 30, 2010, 7:31 pm

    Thurgood Marshall lectured after retirement – “While the Union survived the civil war, the Constitution did not” (statement in Hawaii). There are four justices who believe just like Thurgood – one is retiring, and Kagan is a terror of political abuses – sharp as a tack. There are a number of justices who should be impeached, but; when 50% can make out better are welfare than working – ya got the point ! (this ‘idea’of mine is from a ‘known former employee’ who’s illegal husband is demanding she quit her 16 an hour job because it is better for them when she is not working).

    “None of the powers of sovereignty exist in the people of a territory; the legislative assembly owes its existence to, and derives all its authority from the act of congress creating it. Murin v. Converse 2 C.L.N. 113.

    This is the ‘stare decicis’ upon which the ‘courts’ make rules based in political choice going back to the rebellion of the senate, Northern Senate Rebellion of 1867.

    Open the supreme Court’s web site and read the case decided yesterday in regard to the privilege of a slave to protect himself from another slave’s assault in his home. If one wishes to address the dangers that can be filtered out of the opinion – I should flee to the desert and seek a land so harsh that no other may survive.

    Stare Decisis is that the several States died in the Northern Senate Rebellion.

    Stare Decisis is that the ‘Constitution” is held in trust until such time as the People tire of this experiment in democracy.

    Read the case on the 2nd Amendment and weep because the words democracy, experiment, stare decisis.

    I respect Clarence Thomas in a huge way. Yet, in the case Thomas misstates the reasons for the War of Northern Aggression. Thomas states the war was about slavery, and freeing the Africans. The war was about State Rights, and the several States lost to the rebellion and terror of Federalism, and New Feudal Monarchy in Succession.

    To understand one must be honest. Everyone is a slave to the congress, the banking, and the criminality of the banking act. The several States are gone in reality, while the federal government has reinvented its self as a progressive democracy, or a tyranny.

    As long as there is fiat provided by the cartel, and there are people trading in the flesh of workers in the markets – nothing will change.

    What is changing is the ‘squeeze’ in the shearing of the sheeple. How far can the shears clip before there is blood. The Constitution ‘was’. If you want to know the understanding of the courts, and the government it is beneficial to read The State of Georgia v. Stanton 73 U.S. 50 (1867) http://www.findlaw.com. If the Constitution ‘is’, and the states are ‘no more’ the People would be up in arms to defend her at Article I, sec. 8, cls. 5, Article I, sec. 8, cls. 17 & 18, Article I, sec. 10, cls. 1, Article IV, sec. 2, Article IV, sec. 3, cls. 2, Article VI, Articles of Amendment I, II, IV, V, IX & X. The legislators are in full blown treasonous design, and the People do not defend their State, their Nation, or the Unalienable Rights the Constitution secures, see; The State of Georgia.

    Once again – if one wants to get ill read the opinion on the 2nd Amendment filled with words – stare decisis, democracy, rights, immunities, privileges, and judicial activism as a political way of life.

    The answer is banning all attorneys from legislative practice. The bills could be understood in their words. The Skull and Bones would come to an end. The fusing of all branches of government under the Bar, and the Order would cease. The Truth in regard to the high treason of the legislative body would become clear in the acts and actions of rebellion. Well, that is one answer to a complex problem centered upon ‘greed’ and controlled by the owners of the federal reserve system of dominance. Another is 5 university tenured presidents who all belong to “The Prince”, and their interns like Kagan and Obama.

    So there is a Constitution – At Article I, sec. 8, cls. 17 it says the Congress has jurisdiction ‘only’ :

    To exercise exclusive jurisdiction in all Cases whatsoever, over such District. . . to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be; for Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings.

    Article IV, sec. 3, cls. 2 –
    The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory and other Property belonging to the United States;

    Congress created YOU and YOU as Property – look at the real world around you, and where congress has ‘jurisdiction’. Does the congress have jurisdiction in your State, your county, your city, your home – NO !

    If congress is not in treasonous designs, then; the people are property in territory, or; there is no Constitution. Which vote you; no constitution, we gave away the several States, or; ‘us’ territory as a ‘us’ property of the congress’s rebellion via The Reconstruction Acts of 1867 to present (remember this is all under military force of arms by the congress) ?

    I vote that each legislator took Oath at Article VI to the Constitution – therefore Due Process of Law says the People should try the crimes – then we have The State of Georgia – the people do nothing to protect their several State, therefore there is no state except the state of slavery brought on by the 14th amendment. Also check out the 13th amendment – congress can slave in the territory – and there is not Law prohibiting one from contracting to slavery as an African voluntarily.

    • Chris T. July 1, 2010, 12:49 am

      While Thurgood Marshall is right about his assessment of the Constitution after 1865, it is ironic that such a statement should come from him.

      His whole political, later judicial career was spent giving the Constitution a reading that suited his own political proclivities, and anything smacking of any sort of original intent, was anathema to him.

      While I have great respect to JP Stevens, and admire much of his work, the point above also applies to him.
      As we will also see for Kagan, there is no doubt about that. She works with Eric Holder after all.

      Many of the judicial fiats, that appear so pleasing when one looks just at the actual issue at hand, violate the constitution nevertheless.
      Brown, desegregating schools? Nice decision, but not in the Constitution.
      Griswold, sounds nice, not in the Constitution.
      and on and on with “liberal” high points.

      The “conservatives” do the same:
      The recent Chicago gun-rights decision was their work, and hailed by them, yet the statist application of the 14th’s incorporation doctrine is just the same activism pro the Feds, as shown in Brown and Griswold.

      None of these hew to the content, structure and intent of the Constitution, and certainly the 3 you mention did not believe that philosophically.

      If you want to see what the court is about look at Kelo, and the California Med. Marij. case from the same year:

      You had “liberals” (Ginsburg for ex.) against the pot thing because she would not dare give state’s right any credibility.

      And in Kelo, the conservative block dissented, citing federal constitutional grounds, when in fact, under states’ rights, they should have supported upholding the Connecticut court (even IF the outcome is distasteful to those opposed to government takings).

      The common thread for both sides:
      Never (or almost) giving credence to a limit on the federal government, including Scotus itself, viz. the several states, and even being willing to disregard their general proclivities for that overiding concern.

    • Rich July 5, 2010, 3:18 pm

      Steve, every time I read this, it becomes more brilliant and insightful on understanding how the Federal Government thinks it eliminated State’s Rights and Individual Sovereignty, inviting We the people to take it back. Now wonder Bork, Clintons’ professor at Yale Law, was Borked. Thank you.

  • F. Beard June 30, 2010, 7:09 pm

    But it’s quite another to disolve your obligations, rob banks, make promises to return the money by retirement age, then say you’re not going to because all is forgiven. Ben

    Ben,
    Obligations to a government backed counterfeiting cartel?

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 7:34 pm

      No, to the Constitution, when they demonitized silver, followed by gold. Free of that limitation, they utilized the central bank to fund their other over-expansions, which was and still is an invasion on the right to private money.

      And though the bible is not the law of the land, since it’s all based on criminality, I don’t think can nor should be forgiven on biblical grounds. Theft is theft is needs to be punished in some way. Now, you mentioned yesterday a two-fold repayment, regarding theft. Let’s say for the sake of argument that half that would be getting them out of the private banking sector (which would effectively decentralize it), and thus disvolving the debt obligations they have grown on us all over the years. The other half, return to people what was taken, that is the gold that their centralizing banking entity has bought up on the cheap, at our ongoing expense.

      The math is fuzzy, but logical. And while not exactly your run-of-the-mill Jubilee, it would have elements of it in the right place, which would occur naturally from a certain course of action.

  • BDTR June 30, 2010, 3:37 pm

    Whoa!

    Mushroom cults apparently abound outside of the ancient world! The war on drugs must conclusively now be declared an utter loss. Long live the war on drugs! (Hear that President Karzai?)

    Great news, perhaps, for a prospective broadening of existential perspective. But the extreme, biblically remedial, agrarian economic model as an applicable resolution to modern economy is something truly worthy of an animated Pixar fantasy.

    Lo, verily I say unto you, how ye live, so shall ye die! The pen being mightier than the sword, and the .pdf mightier than the pen, I live by the. pdf and submit the following for hallucination free consideration with your coffee and, er, …Danish;

    http://brie.berkeley.edu/conf/DK-USA%20Competitiveness-11.pdf

    note: not as long as Leviticus

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 6:20 pm

      “But the extreme, biblically remedial, agrarian economic model as an applicable resolution to modern economy is something truly worthy of an animated Pixar fantasy.”

      Nice to know that when we run out of our own bad ideas, we can always give Denmark a call. But why not Sweden as well? Norway? Finland? Or are they just the black sheep of the whole modern viking culture ???

      What a day. A debate between the Biblical/Agrarian “Hillbillies” and the Angelic Vikings of Denmark. And here I’ve been, figuring that I’ve seen it all…

      Anyway, if I’ve walked away having learned anything today, it’s that it all depends on the nature of the debt forgiven, and the extent of it. I don’t know what Denmark’s situation is or isn’t, but here in the U.S. there are ongoing criminalities which go back well over 100 years.

      It’s one thing to fall short when you’re paying off a house. No one can ever say what the market will do, and defaults are a part of life. But it’s quite another to disolve your obligations, rob banks, make promises to return the money by retirement age, then say you’re not going to because all is forgiven. I’m sure there are those in DC who wish biblical arguments could be made and won, but even if it could be argued and won, the bible is not the law of the land. The Constitution is.

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 8:11 pm

      Tak BDTR
      Other than Bikes, Cheese Danish, Green Global Warming Genes, Hans Christian Andersen, modern furniture, split pea soup, windmills and the highest taxes in the OECD, what else did the Tribe of Dan contribute to the global GDP?
      http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_2649_201185_41498313_1_1_1_1,00.html

    • Robert June 30, 2010, 9:00 pm

      Please define the term “modern economy ” and explain exactly how it differs from “historical economy”

      I think you will find that the only difference is the degree of financial dislocation and monetary distortion present in modern times…

      Now, explain to us how those distortions and dislocations are necessary, valuable, or even relevant?

  • watcher7 June 30, 2010, 9:16 am

    In regard to the “year of release” – cancellation of short-term debt – and the “Jubilee year” – cancellation of long-term debt – the late Peter Martin of the Financial Times had this to say in an article in 2002:

    “At the heart of economic activity lies a magical relationship between the operating activities of a business and its capital structure.
    “This relationship – between the real activities of production, investment and service delivery, on the one hand, and the financial structure that supports and amplifies it – has been for so long an implicit part of human life that we take it for granted.
    “True, we recognise the amplifying power of the financial side of the partnership by rewarding its participants more lavishly than those who perform the operational roles. But in general, we see the two aspects of the company as straightforwardly complementary and otherwise give the relationship little thought.
    “Now and then, however, there are moments that reveal the importance of this relationship. We are living through one of them now.
    “In the past week, company after company has made announcements that seemed to have only the most tenuous connection with reality. Corporate restructuring announcements or bankruptcy proceedings demonstrate a yawning gulf between a company’s underlying business realities, the values inscribed in its balance sheet, and the formal commitments to shareholders, creditors and other stakeholder.
    “Obligations with little in common … prove to be economically unsustainable. Reality has to be redefined, obligations dropped.
    “This adjustment of the relationship of the capital structure to underlying operating activities is in some cases a wrenching process, with a complete reassignment of rights and potentially drastic changes in the day-to-day business company. In other cases it is less disruptive, acting through adjustment of future expectations about evolution of profits, cashflows and dividends rather than any one-off change to their absolute level.
    “Capital markets can take most of these smooth adjustments in their stride: their role is precisely to handle day to day calibrations of expectations so that we scarcely notice them. But superimposed on this smoothing process is the bigger disruptive adjustments that flares up in periods like the present.
    “We should think of these adjustment periods as the lineal descendant of the biblical concept of the Sabbath year – the seven-year cycle, described in Deuteronomy, which releases debtors, Hebrews slaves and the victims of foreclosure from their obligations. The original biblical text stresses the operating appropriateness of a seven-year cycle as a means of ensuring continued fertility for the land. But the scripture also makes clear that contractual relationships need to be reset. These presumably include the primitive financial relationships that provided leverage for the operating cycle.
    “A super-cycle of seven times seven years was also described in Leviticus. How this larger jubilee differed from the seven-year cycle is unclear. But there was more sophistication at work than simply cancellation of debts or other contracts. In particular, there seems to be evidence of a resetting of contracts around some normalised terms, based on fair returns for time expired.
    “The implication is that the passage of time and the distortions of the capital market cycle was likely to have caused all obligations to drift upwards towards unrealistic onerous levels. Resetting them to a lower, standardised level was therefore appropriate. A protective clause also requires equitable treatment in the immediate per-jubilee phase, so that the benefits of contractual release are not pre-empted by harsh treatment.
    “… whether they were practical guidelines or merely a theological aspiration they offer a glimpse of an underlying truth. This casts light not merely on the relationship between operations and financial structure that governs stable economic activity, but on a third, invisible element: dream, vision, animal spirits.
    “It is the presence of the expansionary dream that allows financial innovation to build on current or promised operating returns. Returns are no longer restricted by productivity growth, but are as limitless as financial imagination can devise.
    “Entrepreneurs and investors vie with one another to bid up this opportunity. Obligations are heedlessly assumed, since there will be enough potential profitability – say, enough potential subscribers for mid-week football matches in the outer fringes of the Football League – to swamp any risk.
    “It did not take the biblical seven years, let alone seven times seven, for the particular set of obligations to prove unsustainable. A similar brevity applies to many other of the contractual relationships now being restructured. In many cases, the ink is not yet dry on the documents with which today’s bankrupt companies assumed their now impossible obligations.
    “Managers, investors, financial intermediaries, policymakers we can all learn from this experience. The task is a triple one. First, in daily operations ensure that estimates of true underlying returns are realistic, something that demands common sense rather than elaborate technique…
    “Second, dreams must balance humility and ambition…
    “Third, ensure that financial structures support this present reality and future vision, rather than distorting it…” (Peter Martin, Remember the Sabbath day, ft.com, April 8, 2002).

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 7:55 pm

      Nice essay W, thanks.
      Credit card holders routinely write off bad debts and credit agencies observe a seven-year reporting cycle.
      Mortgage lenders observe mortgages on average paid off in 7 years by move, sale or default.
      The underlying reason for the prohibition of usury is numbers compound faster than real economies grow.
      Ben Franklin, fascinated by a French Mathematician’s 8th wonder of the world compound interest parody Fortune Richard, left $4400 to the Cities of Boston and Philadelphia by bequest. At the end of 100 years, the funds were to be lent to deserving tradesmen to establish their businesses. At the end of 200 years they were to be distributed to the community chest at large. The funds ended up as the Franklin Institute outside Boston thanks to a land donation by Carnegie. In Philadelphia the funds were used for mortgages and scholarships.
      Because of bad loans, the real CAGR on the funds, 3.11% and 3.58%, was less than inflation…
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

  • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 6:32 am

    I’m going to try and keep this short, instead of doing my usual (takes a deep breath) looooooooong windedness.

    1) Personal debt: Agreed! It would be proper to dismiss much of it, as many people have in fact paid in full, plus more through forced usury (since govt never had a right to be in our boats to begin with). Many people are probably in fact owed once that illegal increase is discounted from the original principle. Whether one is religious or not, there simply is no reason to charge usury, let alone because one’s government broke the law and usurped the sanctity of private money.

    2) Government debt: Since they broke the law, it’s a crime, not a mere default on debt. They owe, in gold, because of article I section 10.

    3) Foreign debt: We can’t forgive this, as it too was the result of crime, and not merely a default on credit. It’ll have to be repaid in money and trade, preferably the latter since we have VAST resources and a mostly idled workforce just itching to get back to work. It would make sense to keep the gold here, to properly invest in those things, and as it happens, our government is the most problematic one in the world. It can do with some restraint! And as it happens, our main creditors are seeking to better their lot in life through ongoing modernization. I say we help them acheive that in doing the honorable thing.

    4) Taxation: Transaction taxes can’t be done on private money. In fact, they can’t tax private money at all. Proper govt would become a decillion ton Fat Albert if it is allowed to continue taxing private money. Nor can they really tax gold and silver because there is no way to know who has it. Even if it were to be redistributed, there’s more gold and silver in the country still. Recommend a system of lending…

    4a) Coin metals at the Mint if you want to loan them to the Treasury.
    4b) State the terms of the loan (timeline and repayment schedule, if any)
    4c) Treasury creates certificates on what metals it receives, ounce for ounce. No more, no less.
    4d) Certificates have an expiration date that coincides with the bond maturity date created in 4b, after which the coin can be reloaned or redeemed by the bondholder. Certificates created on a repayment schedule will have a discount rate that coincides with that schedule.

    Expected result: Limited government, mild price inflation, no debt (though obligated through bond), no taxes, nor any inflation or deflation of money supply.

    If voluntary lending falls short, then government can “tax” capital gains, which is just forcing savings to lend, or to burden (tax) savings for government funding. This they could do through chartered businesses, which are those businesses and industries that deal in large quantities of monetary metals. It would work in the same way, and in time the savings would be returned in full.

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 7:38 pm

      “4) Taxation: Transaction taxes can’t be done on private money. In fact, they can’t tax private money at all. ”
      While agreeing with B’s main points, going back on a 100% reserve gold standard is hyperdeflationary (more than $50 Gold Eagle face value legal tender) sand not sure what is meant here by private money – cash carry economy?
      Anytime you go into a bank, EBay or store, it is no longer private as there is a record. PayPal requires Tax IDs.
      If only bartering at farmer’s or flea markets off the grid, we are talking about a real cut in living standard.
      Are we all really prepared to live in a Clint Eastwood Western?

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 9:06 pm

      “…going back on a 100% reserve gold standard is hyperdeflationary (more than $50 Gold Eagle face value legal tender) and not sure what is meant here by private money – cash carry economy?”

      Well, private money can be anything, but to limit the discussion let’s just say a bank issuing it’s own money is money, and valued by the market. I made a post to F Beard yesterday which explains this better…

      http://www.rickackerman.com/2010/06/two-modest-proposals-to-rid-us-of-debt/#comment-7505

      There’s no saying WE would have to use gold or silver (though I would, not everyone would likely do so).

      Gold and silver, among other things, are limits on government spending and action in a free market.

      And the argument of lending being superior to taxation rests upon the idea that many people control the gold and silver that is loaned. Government (nor any centralizing authority) never controls them, nor can they invade private money of other sorts. That is how things ought to be, anyway.

  • kara June 30, 2010, 5:48 am

    Seasonality trashed?? Seasonal charts shows us right on schedule – just over-reacting a little. Okay – a lot – the norm is down 3% – and we are down 12%ish

    Let’s see if we bounce

    http://www.seasonalcharts.com/zyklen_wahl_dowjones_midterm.html

  • Chris T. June 30, 2010, 4:20 am

    Having just looked at the APT link given in the article above, one wants to yell “that’s ridiculous” on first read.

    Of course things are not that simple, and a real criticism needs a lot more thought.

    But, a few here:

    a) Are the 856 avg. Trillion cited from the BIS the world-wide transaction amount or just for the US? One needs to assume the latter.

    b) An assumption of a transaction volume reduction by 50% is just that, and may itself be highly questionable.
    It is made to sound like a win-win, where most pay much, much less, but the taker gets the same amount (because it aspires to revenue neutrality). Where will the dough come from if not from most people, as ATP claimed for the present system? The imputed savings are only about 6% of the present budget, so way insufficient.
    Feige’s own answer is from the sharp progressivity of transactional volume itself.
    BUT, if this top-end is made to bear more of the burden than currently(again a necessary condition if revenue neutral and less from most everyone else), the amount will be so large as to induce substantial avoidance — legal, by reducing the transaction volume, and illegal, by transacting without being observed.
    Anyone who doubts exactly this sectors ability to do precisely that, has not understood exactly how this country has been ruined over the last 100 years of bank-cabal rule. Thus the assumption of 50% is highly questionable.

    That “illegal” avoidance I mention will inspire government reprisals, that will take the form of even more control of all activity of us, thus lead to an even greater loss of civil liberties than heretore.
    Shades of the Swedish and Dutch proposals to ban virtually all cash transactions…

    c) Revenue neutrality itself is a flawed concept, what this country needs is less TAKING, period, and thus the r-n is conceptually flawed. And for a balanced budget to be even approached, the twice 0.28% cited (being about 2.4trillion of 428 trillion) would already have to almost be doubled to give the current ~4 trillion.
    So we are already at about 1% from both transactors, and it still hasn’t accounted for the 2 trillion in state and municipal spending= another 0.5% from both sides.
    At 1.5% per transcation (leaving aside point b, which would necessitate closer to 2%), one has to think of the “for just 0.89c a day” ads, that make things sound cheap,, when $325 per year does not.

    d) Finally, Feige is a Columbia and Chicago economist, vintage 1958+1963 respectively. No matter what else, that background should raise red flags from the outset — two of the institutions, next to Harvard and MIT, most responsible for the deplorable state of modern economic thought in the US.
    For every Walter Block that could have made it out of Columbia, there are 100 StiglizT’s and Samuelsons…

    • Benjamin June 30, 2010, 6:49 am

      Points C & D, I’m not so clear on. But A & B are definitely clear, and I agree. Overall, a well-thought out argument!

    • Rich June 30, 2010, 7:18 pm

      A) Those figures are for the USA in 2005. The current US Transaction figures are over $1 quadrillion.
      B)No one knows if a transaction tax would really decrease transactions -50%, as China, Japan, Germany, UK and US had/have them in other names as exchange, real estate documentary fees or stamp taxes, while enjoying increasing transaction volumes. The USA had a successful transaction tax from 1914 to 1966 that was doubled during the depression to balance the budget and repealed by/for Wall Street, which paid no transaction taxes on over $206 T of US OTC unregulated derivatives that got US into this mess. Conjecturing ATP may only cover 6% of the budget borders on propaganda in the case of Wall Street again exempting itself from financial regulation or uniform taxation mandated in the Constitution. The convoluted conflicting IRS Tax Code, longer than the Bible, became a bribe source for Congressional Corporate lobbyist allowances, credits, exemptions and subsidies, at the expense of the disappearing middle class consumer, who paid most of the taxes. Already IRS tax revenues fell -30+% each the last two years. Medicare and Social Security are spending more than they take in now, not 2017. More of the same as we roll over into the abyss is destructive madness. Destruction of government is a nice fantasy until it happens and the military drug cartel takes over at gunpoint. Do we really want to live like a Banana Republic?
      C) So how are we going to get to less taking and more producing, with hidden 0Care taxes hiring 15,000 more IRS agents, Cap & Trade Taxes pending to skyrocket utility bills, the 15% now 20% euro VAT already floated by the Obama boyz, while the so-called opposition party talks about cutting corporate taxes while approving government spending increases? Here is a simple budget revenue fact:
      Corporations paid just 7% of Federal Government Revenues in 2009. Individuals and payroll taxes paid 85%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Receipts_-_FY_2007.png
      Isn’t it about time for a little more level playing field? Most people wish their total taxes were only $325 a year.
      D) Feige is an American too. Does that make him responsible for losing wars in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan? This is not about Feige as a red herring, but uniform taxes demanded by our Constitution.
      The productive benefits of replacing the failing income tax system with transaction taxes were well documented during the last Great Depression.
      TT’s would bring trading costs back up to 1980s levels. Vanguard’s John Bogle, BRK’s Warren Buffett, Lou Gerstner, Nobel Laureates Solow, Stiglitz and Tobin, the head of AFL-CIO, Summers did, even Geithner now, after first rejecting it, Congress on the left and right, and the heads of state of many leading GDP countries support it, having proposed it at the recent G-20.
      Does that automatically make it bad for the rest of us? Only if we let them add it to present taxes, instead of replacing them.
      Basically, only Wall Street firms that paid little in taxes are fighting it. eg GS, which in 2008 enjoyed a 1% effective tax rate according to their 10-K.
      Even mathematics Don Keynes, who as successful money manager for his King’s College at Cambridge, advocated balanced budgets via a transaction tax in 1936:
      “Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise. But the situation is serious when enterprise becomes the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation. (1936:159)”[4]
      Our economy’s real GDP peaked in 1984 and we have just been rearranging deck chairs on the USS Financial Titanic and playing politics since then.
      http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/gross-domestic-product-charts
      Isn’t it time we did something about it?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_transaction_tax
      http://www.transactiontaxresources.com/
      http://www.cepr.net/documents/testimonies/baker-bundestag-2010-5-17.pdf
      http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/the-growing-push-to-impose-a-transaction-tax/