Inflationistas Hardier than Cockroaches

We thought the inflationistas would back off now that global deflation has ravaged just about every asset class save bullion and T-Bonds for the last couple of years. Actually, they’ve been pretty quiet lately, even if there are still a few money-supply nuts who believe not only that inflation is, or will be, a concern, but that the deflationist somehow have the big picture wrong. To all of you we say once again, Wake us when Americans can sell their homes for a quadrillion dollars, give or take a few zeros. Meanwhile, with CPI inflation sinking rapidly toward zero, check out this link to an essay by Puru Saxena, who raises some of the weakest anti-deflationist arguments we’ve heard so far. It’s good for laughs, but not much more. A reader sent us the link after we’d promoted a Wall Street Journal report earlier this week that some major-league financiers have finally copped to the reality of deflation. We’re talking about guys whose opinions count: Bill Gross, Jeremy Grantham, and hedge-fund managers David Tepper and Alan Fournier, to name a few of the best-known converts. “Deflation isn’t just a topic of intellectual curiosity, it’s happening,” said Gross, who runs the $239 billion Pimco Total Return Fund.

With the dollar weakening, foreign automakers will find it tough to raise prices by much

Lo, no sooner had we published the link than we heard from our old friend Zane B., who continues to push the intuitively appealing argument that inflation is about to take off because of a weakening dollar. (What’s about to take off is marginal tax rates, as far as we can surmise, and surely no one would argue that that is inflationary.)  Zane used to work for a foreign auto manufacturer, and he asserts that foreign autos, for one, will need to become pricier in dollars if their makers are to turn a profit. We would argue that the makers’ assembly lines will grind to a halt unless they are able to continue selling at cut-rate prices to an increasingly down-and-out American market. How many Lexuses and Benzes would they be able to unload here if prices were to rise by 15 to 20 percent or more? Keep that question in mind as you ponder Zane’s argument:

Wal-Mart’s Role

“[Earlier this week], the dollar was 132.27 against the Euro, 85.8050 against the yen and 1.5948 against the pound. This is very significant, especially for the yen (another support level gone; the Japanese Postal Service had unofficially pledged to keep the yen at 90+). It is an exponential/logarithmic thing (like the Richter Scale) in that 89 to 90 is much more significant than 225 to 224. When I worked at Subaru in the early 1980s, the yen was 225-230 against the dollar. Anyway, this signals (at least temporarily) that inflation, now slowly accelerating [Oh, really?], will come roaring back soon. The above nations aren’t just major trading partners; their (relatively) low-priced production and wholesale prices are what help keep domestic prices in check. I also point to the now-floating yuan, as Wal-Mart alone accounts for five percent of all Chinese exports. Worse still, oil is slowly rising. This incomplete picture, when viewed in its entirety, seems to point to something major, really major, brewing both in the worldwide foreign exchange markets — possibly a widening of the ‘basket of currencies’ some oil producers sometimes demand as payment rather than Yankee dollars). It could also point to the fact that NOW, right now, is the time to get out of fixed-income investments. As you’ve undoubtedly noticed, utilities (especially) and bonds have now reached what some, perhaps, would call unsustainable levels.”

Zane, if it will help put your troubled mind at ease, we’re not the least bit worried about, for one, $100-a-barrel oil. Not that a speculative blowoff couldn’t push crude to that level or higher – only that the market could not sustain such prices for long, especially with the world economy teetering at the edge of a deflationary abyss. Crude at $100 a barrel would kill the global-recovery hoax faster than anything else we can think of, but it would also kill the demand for oil. Come to think of it, cap-and-trade legislation is designed to achieve the same end – a big increase in the price of energy to dampen demand.  Is there anyone who believes that that would be inflationary?

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  • Carl W. Luxem August 6, 2010, 9:57 pm

    China’s Shark Loan Ponzi Finance- Former Microsoft CEO in China is Under Investigation for Shark Loan Activities and Faking Commercial Real Estate Contracts.

    For those of you who are not familiar with the subject here is a quick summary:

    From Special Report- The Secret Engine Behind China’s Housing Bubble- The Ponzi Shark Loan Finance

    This is how this Ponzi scheme works:

    Local governmental officials that are demanded from the government to produce double digit GDP growth numbers give real estate developers permits to build housing projects in return for bribes. They also get bribes in return for allowing the shark loan companies to operate under their jurisdiction. Some of them are active partners in shark loan businesses. For example, a party secretary of legal affairs, that controls the public security bureau, which is a court and prosecutor division of government in Yanking city, in She Kiang province tired to run abroad using a passport in 2009 after he found out he can’t repay 60million Yuan. Every scheme has a ring leader whose job is to collect money from all the participants in the ponzi scheme. When some of these ponzi schemes blow up, the party leaders always get bailed out first, and some even ask local business owners to lend them money, and then bail out their own personal fund. After that the ring leader turns himself in and gets protection from the local government.

    Most of the funds that are collected in this classic ponzi finance go to local land purchases and real estate development. Part of the funds are used in order to pay back the rolling loan. The short term interest rate in this black market is very high and ranges between 20%-150% annual rate. The sources of the ponzi funds are diverse, as ordinary citizens, banks with corrupted bank officials, and state enterprises play the game.

    In China’s Shark Loan Ponzi Finance- Understanding China’s Shadow Banking System we also covered the subject of fake real estate contracts:

    A larger percentage of China’s real estate sales are in reality fake since they are made with the purpose of obtaining the flow of bank loans before real sales happen. Through this arrangement, the developer and the shark lender make sure that the bank will bear the ultimate risk.
    Western investors doubt this criminal activity since they do not understand the true nature of China’s society, or any totalitarian regime for that matter. But China is not a democracy; it is semi communist, semi fascist regime that is running a planned economy.
    The reality is that more loan growth can benefit the borrower, the banking executive, and the local government officials. The return of capital and the potential loss of the principal is always a secondary consideration, especially when the loans are issued to the state owned enterprises or well connected “too big to fail” private businesses. Who cares? The banks are state owned banks, and the capital is state capital.

    Today’s 21st Century Economic Report, published an amazing story of former Microsoft China CEO, Jun Tang.

    He became famous recently due to the exposure of his purchase of a fake PHD diploma from Western Pacific University. He also claimed to have a PHD degree from California Institute of Technology in his Bio and numerous occasions. There is a hot debate on the Chinese web regarding Mr. Tang, who used to be a role model, and is now exposed to be a crook. On the other hand, in the fake goods capital of the world someone line Mr. Tang may as well be a role model.

    According to the report, Mr. Tang is under police investigation for an alleged criminal corporation with real estate developers in Suzhou City. The police suspect that they faked a commercial real estate sale contract, which enabled him to receive a 112.8 million Yuan mortgage loan from a bank. Later, the loan has been lent out by the real estate developers and to loan sharks.

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  • dougof August 6, 2010, 1:21 am

    But if the Fed decides that pouring on the gasoline is not just the last resort, but the only resort?

    http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/8/2_Jim_Rickards.html

  • C.C. August 6, 2010, 12:01 am

    Cockroaches Are pretty damned hearty…

    I had one cornered in the shower last week (I don’t know where the bloody hell they come from, cause I don’t live like a slob), about the size of my thumb – all 2″ of the critter…

    Doused him with full-on hot water for at least a minute, if not more. If he wasn’t drowned, he was surely scalded to death. He was D-E-A-D, limp as a biscuit.

    Until the next morning when I got up…

    Sitting there all nice & dry, sprightly attitude – ready to hit the day with a smile he was. Scurried off just a fast as if nothing had ever happened.

    So folks, inflation-adjusted Cockroaches are indeed a hearty lot and it just goes to show how stubborn inflation is.

    (they even survive nuclear blasts!)

    &&&&&&

    Working as a lifeguard, I used to give pesky horseflies a going-over that makes your scalding water look like a idyll in a hot tub. I thought they’d send out telepathic signals — “Guys, don’t dare mess with this f**ker!” — but there was never any evidence that it worked. RA

  • bill August 5, 2010, 8:03 pm

    Used to listen to Saxena quite a bit on an audio show but I finally had to skip over his segments. When the housing debt crisis started to pick up steam (2007-2008?) he repeated the mainstream line that bad USA mortgages were contained, it was only a $250B problem. I guess that
    figure is off about 10 fold. You could cut him a bit of slack as he doesn’t live in America, but I’m afraid his head still resides up his …

  • market Ace August 5, 2010, 8:01 pm

    I have read for years your unending theory of deflation being the only game in town, but you seem to oversimplify this complex issue and play games with semantics to always “prove” your point. Your primary thesis seems to be that of strict supply and demand theory and if demand decreases, which it is for many items, prices and values decline. This is obviously true, but —

    For every decline in demand for one asset class resources become available to purchase other asset classes and even if incomes decline, giant resources are available to buy other asset classes. When these resources are deployed they cause bubbles in other asset classes – think US Bonds and even the US dollar at times. It also causes reallocation of resources for production of “stuff” and so prices for some things like cars and real estate decrease, while imports may increase. Even the weather and geography plays a part in this as currently we see food like wheat can increase dramatically in price while corn prices drop.

    Just as supply and demand affects the values of various asset classes, the over production (and circulation of) too many US dollars decreases their value and correspondingly asset values go up because people want more dollars for them to preserve their own purchasing power. Throw in the ridiculous arbitrary changes in valuations of currencies that effect prices and you get wild swings that may decrease prices for some items from certain countries while decreasing prices for the same items in other countries.

    When discussing inflation and deflation you have to look at much more than just a general theory, but must consider all factors that affect prices of various items in various geographical areas and it is certainly easy to see both inflation and deflation at the same time as the world is not black and white on this issue.

    &&&&&&&

    You talk about this ceaseless shifting of capital from one asset class to the next as though the quantity of money will survive intact each time, and as though the investment strategy associated with each transfer (i.e., real estate paper, to take a recent example) will always be correct. In fact, there will continue to be significant leakage and money destruction every time the game changes, since financial markets are not a zero-sum game. Eventually, and predictably, the sum of money now used for economically valueless speculation — a sum that exceeds by a factor of ten that required to facilitate global trade in actual goods and service — will be reduced to a degree that will make every dollar of capital seem precious. RA

  • FranSix August 5, 2010, 7:19 pm

    People like to use inflation-adjusted charts and data, because it just makes the numbers look bigger.

    If everyone used deflated charts,(meaning no change in the price history, and charts are far lower) the disappointment would be realized, that your earnings adjusted for inflation really don’t look that good. Its a blow to the ego to adjust for inflation.

    One inflation adjusted chart I do like, because it compares the 1914 gold price with the 1933 gold price in inflation adjusted terms, is the following:

    http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Gold/Gold_inflation_chart.htm

    It gives you an idea that the inflation adjusted gold price might average ~18% higher in the 2010 deflation than the 1980 peak. (using Kondratieff theory)

    A simple inflation-calculator will give you exact numbers inflation-adjusted terms:

    http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html

    If you bring up all of the inflation-adjusted numbers against a monthly gold price chart, it gives you an idea of where the price fixes in gold were intended to keep the price:

    http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=$GOLD&p=M&b=5&g=0&id=p29560442230&a=182333562&listNum=2

  • DG August 5, 2010, 4:36 pm

    The bureau of labor statistics budget is $645.4 million next year, an increase of 5%. Now if the group that is responsible for creating the CPI has to increase their cost 5%, well geez, I guess there is no better indication of inflation.

    On a less sarcastic note, the real discussion here is why do we need to spend the better fraction of a billion dollars to calculate BLS BS? CPI is a joke that is little more than a tool to limit entitlements due to folks that have to operate in an environment that has inflation, aka currency debasement, baked into the recipe by design. We are so used to debasing the dollar that it is a mental given. The real issue is that we have a currency, the dollar, that is gang-raped every day by a number of participants, but mainly bureaucrats, lobbyists, corporations, and individuals that benefit from the feeding at the trough of public largesse. It simply will not pencil. Call it inflation or deflation, but your currency has a very long purchasing power trendline that starts in the upper left and heads towards the lower right.

    Rick, I agree with you that deflation is a massive threat with the debt overhang and is happening (take housing, please). But. I do not underestimate our government’s ability to fight this deflationary environment with massive currency debasement. Their dream environment would be overall price stability, regardless of currency debasement, that bought time for the economy to absorb the debt overhang and heal. We all know that this is not that simple, as any student of thermo would realize that you start fiddling with the levers and a lot of other stuff starts moving.

    If and when silver (or copper) breaks above the 2008 highs, I would argue that you have pretty hard data suggesting that the cockroach inflationistas have survived financial thermonuclear war and won. Seeing that SLW has already done this – their hand my have already been tipped. In euros, silver has already gone to new highs and the copper trend seems to have broken to the upside.
    We will all be surprised, I am sure, as our US government is predictably unpredictable. It certainly would be nice for all citizens to live in a manner where at least you could just operate a business, or simply work and save, or manage your affairs, not having to be a forex expert in order to simply survive.
    Prechter makes a good point, though – what if the Tea Partiers knocked out the fiscally imprudent and demanded fiscal discipline?….the inflationistas would be squashed. That is a very big “if”. Very few drugees drive themselves to the rehab clinic.
    Whew. That feels better. I will duck now awaiting the responses!

    • BDTR August 5, 2010, 6:46 pm

      Tea-baggers fiscally disciplined?! Yikes, the same ageing bodies indignantly decrying the prospect of loosing their social entitlements at the hand of Comrade Obama?! (Besides being huge supporters of Amerika’s burgeoning Pentagon aparatus’ adventures, continuing tax breaks for the richest Capitalistas, continuing big-oil and agri subsidies and backed by the banking entrenched, hard spending neo-conistas?)

      Tea-baggers, bless their hearts, would find a happy alternative home in Greece.

    • Larry August 5, 2010, 7:11 pm

      I agree. An alternate home in Greece sounds fine.

      I’m visualizing an island in the blue Aegean, whitewashed buildings with blue roofs. Any escape from this administration’s Bizarro world sounds very happy indeed.

      psst…when did neo-cons become neo-coms?

    • Chris T. August 5, 2010, 10:00 pm

      BDTR writes:

      “Tea-baggers … being huge supporters of Amerika’s burgeoning Pentagon aparatus’ adventures, continuing tax breaks for the richest Capitalistas, continuing big-oil and agri subsidies and backed by the banking entrenched, hard spending neo-conistas?”

      What you are describing is not the real tea-party movement (with its roots in Ron Paul’s Campaign for Liberty, etc) but the Republican co-opted version that still uses the tea-party name. The Republicans themselves having long ago been co-opted by the neo-con crowd /the NWO crowd, your mentioning the neo-cons in the litany above is redundant.

      Not all those local organizations have been fully co-opted, see Nevada, but it is true for Florida and Rubio.
      Seems like deep-down, you object to a true libertarian agenda, of smaller government, and not robbing from Peter to give to no-working Paul.

  • T'inker August 5, 2010, 4:18 pm

    Just because Rick is talking about Big Picture Deflation does not render it “mere” theory.
    Of course we are going to be squeezed as “little guy” consumers. What choice do we have – not buy food and other essentials? The trend has been a top-down screwing as far as it can be done. One could look at higher essentials prices as being the scraping of the bottom of the barrel.
    Wealth has been moving to a smaller and smaller segment of people over several decades now, power being consolidated. When bread costs more AND unemployment increases, problems lie ahead.
    One could perhaps be forgiven for seeing the raising of the price of essentials as the “Rulers’s” bid to keep our grubby little hands off the Good Stuff of true assets, since we will be too strapped out to take advantage of the deflated asset “bargains”.

  • Zane Binder August 5, 2010, 3:17 pm

    Inflation Vs. Deflation: I understand the concept of both inflation and deflation at the same time, and this may happen. BUT: Try buying a half gallon of Breyer’s Ice Cream. Can’t happen because they’ve reduced the carton size and raised prices. Yogurt? 6 oz containers now the norm vs. 8. Coffee? 13 oz “pound” cans instead of 16 ozs. Gasoline? Don’t have to explain THAT! Electric bills? Need I explain THAT? Cable, telephone, car prices, TAXES (my God they’re jumping!)? I have a $35,000 (yes, $35,000 Prius in my driveway as we speak). And yes, one may argue that home prices (I’m upside down in a mortgage for a ticky-tacky box of a home) and some other ISOLATED instances have”deflated.” But the REAL, REAL measure is this: Are YOU paying more, overall, to live this year than last? Unless you’ve cut back drastically you ARE. That’s inflation, not by a Keynesian definition, perhaps, but in reality yes. Wages? Forget them where I work … none in THREE years. Sorry, when I pay more, considerably more, to live this year than last to me, a ratty little ignorant toad, THAT’S INFLATION! Time to focus on reality and NOT theory. Theory won’t put bread on the table!

    • Chris T. August 5, 2010, 9:48 pm

      ” I have a $35,000 (yes, $35,000 Prius in my driveway as we speak).”

      Sorry to hear that. 35k for that stylish goody-two shoes car?
      Why?

      One just wants to park a Hummer H2 next to every Prius on the road, even though the H2 really is a crappy car…

  • Carol August 5, 2010, 2:39 pm

    Other than supply and demand as well as shenanigans from “da boyz” in the agricultural commodities, I don’t see inflation taking off until the global market stabilizes and China reaches that point where they, rather than the US, controls the price of goods and non-ag commodities. It will be at that point when their ability to suck up the lion’s share of oil, gas, metals, rubber, etc., that costs to the West become clearly inflationary for all goods and services. How long that will take is anybody’s guess.

  • Nitram August 5, 2010, 2:00 pm

    In Belmar, New Jersey, on the beach. Stopped for pizza after a day on the beach. Wife and two kids- 4 pieces of pizza- large- dough rolled thin to make slices appear large, 1 Dr Pepper 12 ounce, and 1 bottled water 12 ounce. $21.99 The owner asked me where I’m from? I replied, and thought, how I felt sorry for him, and what a large pie costs? Next trip Wildwood, New Jersey USA

  • Tim August 5, 2010, 1:53 pm

    Just wanted to add, Rick’s arguments to me all hinge on the US being the center of the world. As every day passes wealth inexorably passes from west to east. Add in our respective currency purchasing powers going in opposite directions and billions of former “poor people” are suddenly going to count.

    Is BMW going to reduce prices for the millions of PIGS inhabitants when their currency collapses?

  • Darren August 5, 2010, 1:50 pm

    One could argue that inflation isn’t just rising prices but also prices that don’t fall. In our economic environment it would be no surprise if prices had dropped 10 or 20% over the last couple of years, but they didn’t. Why? Because of the quantitative easing, in other words, inflation.

    The same argument has been presented to explain price stability in the ’20s. Prices should have fallen during the boom as production expanded, but they didn’t. Again, because the printing press was running overtime.

    So if we look at the US as having an inflation rate of say 10% (since prices aren’t dropping) it’s not hard to see how prices could take off as the new money continues to work its way into the system.

    • BDTR August 5, 2010, 5:26 pm

      Bingo! Well said, Darren.

      Witness grossly speculated-overvalued sucker assets crumble as they should when inevitably, TSHTF.
      Many are algo-engineered sector declines, but overall nominal prices have stabilized according to real demand, discounting and the delayed effects of intermittent, profligate CB propping of money supply.

      Consider TMS (True Money Supply) in the major currencies ebb and flow in CB reaction to financial crises and political pressures at a positive on-average rate range of 5-15% YoY.

      It requires on average 2-4 years for massive CB currency injections to impact prices in any given market or sector which is ample time to conflate and confuse perception of real time inflationary impacts. Nominal deflation has been relegated to market sectors of enormous speculative abuse where it has thereafter impacted specifically related commodities for a time. Think uranium and copper.

      As dollar, euro, yen, yuan etc., reciprocate in relative strength or weakness, assets in markets so denominated oscillate accordingly with delay to expectations measurable in years. It’s non-accommodating to the inflation-masters of money supply resulting ill-timed, politically induced corrective attempts of nominally deflated sectors.

      Meanwhile, the monetary die has been long cast irretrievably. While nominal sector deflation is dangled as a red herring harbinger of a major trend, CB’s are paving a one -way Autobahn to Weimar.

      Without a technical discipline with strict capital preservation objectives, touching this market is lunacy, investing a delirium. Imho, the only areas of asset defensive sanity remains in dumping debt and, of course, the physical PMs.

  • Tim August 5, 2010, 1:46 pm

    Imho this argument is all but settled. As DJI points out and others we can have both at the same time and its already happening. Things people must buy (and particularly those things that cannot be meaningfully increased in supply) will go up. Going down will be all the rest but particularly property and stocks and luxury discretionary items. Its possible that the various powers that be can keep property and stocks from going down in nominal terms, but in real terms as someone has said said against gold, these things will collapse.

    In the UK said must have items are rising at a government admitted 4%, way above target 2% odd. Property on the other hand looks like its rolling over. The UK probably did more QE than any one else vis GDP and are now being hailed as a success story to be copied. For now we are being rewarded with a stronger currency and some credibility. However a debt default is mathematically just a question of time imho. Imagine what that is going to do to the cost of imported goods, virtually everything the UK consumes. In Spain where I live, imagine what its going to cost to buy a car once the PIGS are INEVITABLY forced into a southern euro?

    &&&&&&

    Swell, Tim. You’ve regurgitated my least favorite argument, putting a flea and an elephant on either side of the scale and concluding that they are in balance. RA

  • Ivanovich August 5, 2010, 1:13 pm

    The only question is whether or not deflation will win out over the next version of Q.E., coming to a theater near you, as soon as this September.

  • DJI August 5, 2010, 7:55 am

    I find it amazing that there is all this endless debate of deflation vs. inflation but the unit of measure is never brought up. Deflation or inflation against what? It’s easy to go back to the 1930’s and say “hey, in the last depression we had deflation. Everything went down against the dollar. But the key unit of measure is not the dollar, but Gold. What I think will happen is that we will have inflation AND deflation at the same time but against different units of measure. Against Gold, we will have asset deflation. Against the fiat dollar we could have inflation. That would make sense too because it would squeeze the greatest number of people from both sides. Most people don’t own Gold so therefore Gold prices should go up. Most people need to buy food.. therefore food prices should go up. It’s a win win for the bankers.

    &&&&&&

    Why complicate it with notions about money? Here’s something everyone can understand: Deflation is an increase in the real burden of debt. RA

  • TC August 5, 2010, 5:45 am

    Rick,

    If you are waiting for the CPI to show inflation you are going to be waiting quite some time.

    Although I know you are just goading the inflationists here with Oil holding over $80, wheat up 71% since JUNE, gold at $1200, Copper at $3.50 there seems to be a bit of deflation going on at the same time with massive inflation in day to day goods.

    I guess the econ guys would call it stagflation.

    &&&&&

    Goading? Yes, of course — but only because the inflationists’ arguments are growing sillier with each passing month that inflation fails to take off, going back to 1991.

    Am I being unreasonable to ask them to show me where the supposed inflation lies? And could you please explain how $80 oil — or $150 oil, for that matter — would be inflationary? Also, what day-to-day goods are currently reflecting “massive” inflation? Even those hitherto intractable engines of inflation — i.e., colleges, health care providers and government (other than Federal) — have hit the wall. RA

  • Kurt August 5, 2010, 4:48 am

    Maybe the only inflation we will see, and some are already starting to see is in things that really matter; Energy and agriculture. (which is of course excluded from the core CPI)
    While everything else may get in a deflationary spiral, like wages, toys, games, entertainment. Same mortgage payments with a lower wage (if any) to pay for the decreasing property value, while needing to pay more for the ‘volatile’ (but rising) energy and food prices.
    The above (unlikely?) scenario, will keep people, that still have a job, from the Reality Principal, into the Pleasure Principal enforcing the demand for the Uses of Absurdity (Chapther 7, ‘Social Sciences as Sorcery’ by Stanislav Andreski).
    The ‘others’ may be driven to madness in their quest for survival. Either ending up in the few recruiting ‘peacekeeping’ sectors, or driven to madness and histeric action. So the ‘non-haves’ keep the ‘have a little left’ in control while the ‘have a little left’ will ask for more enforcement of the ‘Uses of Absurdity’. One thing is for sure, this all, is humanmade…
    As long as the USDA numbers on for example Soybeans are trustworthy, and no other catastrophees (like the one in Russia) happen, then everything may turn out not to be as bad as above…

    Que sera, sera

    • Kurt August 5, 2010, 8:09 am

      Not yet in Zimbabwe.

      And, don’t know who does your shoppping, maybe your buttler, but if you do your own shopping, you see that food prices have risen (real food prices not all paper money food prices , yet). Furthermore, I live in a country where it is common practice to include a heavy tax on fuel, when the fuel prices go up, the fuel at the pump goes up, but when they go down, the prices remain basically unchanged. How this comes? Probably by ‘accident’, but someone likes it, and it sure is not the consumer…

  • Edward0 August 5, 2010, 3:58 am

    The only inflation we are going to experience is the very worst kind, namely that which comes from a currency collapse. Great Britain will probably go through the hyper-inflationary wringer first, but the U.S. won’t be far behind.

  • FranSix August 5, 2010, 3:46 am

    If the dollar can weaken, so can prices.

  • Phil August 5, 2010, 3:11 am

    I think the other important parameter to keep in mind is the velocity of money. We will have the force of deflation maintained even while we have a Bernanke pouring gasoline from his helicopter… until something, some event triggers a rapid increase in the velocity of money (the “hot potato dollar”) leading to high inflation. In other words the match for the gasoline. I certainly don’t know when and I don’t know what will trigger this but that’s what happened to Weimar Germany in the summer of 1922.

    • Robert August 5, 2010, 5:44 pm

      Oh man, I’m seeing these Weimar comparisons everywhere. Let’s get some facts on the table:

      German society was already in a very depressed state (sociologically, as opposed to economically) at the end of ww1. The Versailles Treaty, which dumped the cost of the war squarely on Germany’s shoulders, did not help matters. Throw in some extreme political turbulence between the militant socialists (the future Nazis) and the communists, and you have the perfect powder keg.

      The Reichmark hyperinflation was not tripped by economic forces- it was tripped by a complete loss of faith in the government that was issuing the currency. The people’s attitude was ground down to the point where they expected every single day to be worse than the day before, and they saw no chance of ever returning to any form of social prosperity. In effect- they gave up on all things positive.

      There was no other way a complete megalomaniac psychopath like Adolf Hitler could have eventually rallied the ENTIRE nation behind him.

      The currency collapse was a single (and historically minor) consequence of complete and utter desparation on a national scale

      I will submit that even with the growing number of Tea-Partiers and other US government Bears out there, we are nowhere near the point of mass-psychosis that was pervading Germany in 1922.

      To use one of Rick’s euphemisms “wake me when a house costs a quadrillion dollars”… Here’s my own spin on it:

      “Wake me when the Tea Partiers are assasinating elected Democrats, and the Fed Chairman is actively campaigning to subjugate Congress as a department within the Bank”

      Between now and then in the US, I’d expect continued debt de-leveraging, mildly increasing costs on all things “real and necessary” (notice that does not include foreign luxury cars) and continued price pressure on all things “fancy and extraneous” (notice that DOES include foreign luxury cars)

      Even if prices of high-end consumer goods remain flat for the next 20 years, that is still deflation in real terms (for those items) since the supply of currency will most certainly continue to rise over that same period.

    • Chris T. August 5, 2010, 9:27 pm

      Robert, your main point, that comparing the Weimar hyperinflation to here today, due to the very differing circumstances is misguided, is surely right.

      BUT, some of your comments about those circumstances need, at the very least, augmentation.

      You write:
      “German society was already in a very depressed state (sociologically, as opposed to economically) at the end of ww1. ”
      That should say sociologically ON TOP OF economically.

      “The Versailles Treaty, which dumped the cost of the war squarely on Germany’s shoulders, did not help matters.”
      It did that, yes, but not only that.
      People actually never look at the true reparation burden imposed on Germany at the time. If one does, it is easy to see, that not only must the burden have exceeded the cost of this war ON ALL SIDES, but it exceeded anything any country, EVER, could have repaid.
      How so?
      The reparations were (punitively) pegged at 120 billion Mark. Looked at from a paper money point of view, that does not seem so odious, perhaps, but consider:

      10 Marks = 3.58 gr Gold
      Thus 120 bil Marks =
      12 bil x 3.58gr =
      42,960 t Gold

      The largest single hoard of gold ever held by any one entity where the ~30,000t the US held shortly after WWII.
      Thus with all the might of the US in 1946-1947, being the only winner of WWII, and the only functioning economy of any size left in the World (the remaining G7s, etc), we could still only muster about 70% of the gold amount imposed on Germany through the treaty.
      Even more to the point, the total world gold in 1919-1920 was between 90-95 kt, so the German reparations amounted to almost 50% of then extant gold, whereas the US’ post WWII hoard was well below 30% of then extant gold (having increased in the interim 30 years by about 20-25kt).

      Thus in real-monetary terms something totally unacheivable for a defeated country like Germany in 1919-1920. This goes beyond what you mention.

      ” Throw in some extreme political turbulence between the militant socialists (the future Nazis) and the communists, and you have the perfect powder keg.”

      The fight by and large was by an armed left/communist wing intent on completing the same revolution as further to the east, and a conservative/nationalist/monarchist block. Much, not all, of what is today ascribed as right-wing (proto-Nazi) to this conservative opposition only appears to be so, because it is being represented from a rather left-wing vantage.
      It is too early to talk about Nazis/fascism in terms of 1919 Germany. They may have had their roots there, but were not operative in what we know as them yet.

      The Versaille treaty and its impositions was considered to be a national shame even by the left of center ruling socialists, and from Ebert down, they, like the conservatives, believed in territorial restoration (Rhineland, corridor, etc) and in an end of the treaty.
      Also missing is the devastation brought about the the physical and psychological well being of the populace by the ongoing starvation blockade, which cost 100 of thousands, if not over 1 million deaths to the civilan population post Armistice Day.

      Antal Fekete has a very interesting take on the level of punitive revenge that the (European) allies were willing to inflict.
      He describes the willful abrogation of multilateral trade in favor of bi-lateralism (really a barter form) and thus the failure to allow a resurrection of the bills of exchange system (real bills) as something driven by revenge, therefore hurting themselves out of spite and revenge against the former enemy.
      This then led to the quick demise of the resurrected gold-standard, thus the blow-back.

      Finally, you write:
      …Adolf Hitler could have eventually rallied the ENTIRE nation behind him.”

      That is not correct, he never did.
      In the last election of 1/1933, the NSDAP could not even approach a simple majority by 10%, in Berlin, always now taken as the symbolic home of Nazism, they barely made 25%. They polled less well than in the late 1932 election, which was in the low 40% range, the highest they ever received.
      While that was the largest block in both elections, ~40% of the vote cast can hardly be called the ENTIRE country. Subsequent elections count as much as those in the USSR, East Germany, N. Korea, they were no longer free.

      Of course none of this is applicable here and now in the US, where we are not likely to suffer such a complete societal collapse as in Germany 1919, but wanted to add this to your points.

    • Phil August 5, 2010, 10:34 pm

      Golly Robert. I was only bringing a comparison with Weimar Germany on my main points: velocity of money! I never said anything about the US is about to get his own Hitler or other comparison points with Germany.
      I was just referring to the velocity of money which is often forgotten. But on your point, it’s true it’s not as terrible as after WWI for Germany but I think we all agree that if they keep doing what they are doing, we will get there, and then what happen? We’ve got the american version of your powder keg. What form? No idea.

      In fact, at this point, I have no idea what will be the end game and nobody does! What kind of crazy experiment helicopter Ben will come up with? He did say he will fight deflation. Would he be crazy enough to actually drop money out of an helicopter? Perhaps that’s an option he is willing to consider if everything else he plans to do doesn’t work.
      Comparing the US with the roman empire might be more appropriate actually – but again, several points are different.
      We are the lucky generation that have been selected out of human history to be part of this great experiment in Human society. Welcome to the 21st century money alchemist’s punch bowl, try to get comfortable next to the rat tails and lemon peels.

    • Rick Ackerman August 5, 2010, 11:50 pm

      Too much loosey-goosey talk about “money velocity” in this forum. For those who want to understand the concept, I’d suggest a web search on “liquidity preference,” a more descriptive term for the same thing. RA