Gold and Stocks Can’t Dance Together Forever

Stocks and bullion are moving so closely in-step these days that gold bugs may soon find themselves in the uncomfortable position of rooting for higher share prices. For many of them this will be quite a stretch, since gold and silver are popular now mainly because they’re regarded as hedges against the kind of economic disaster that would sink the stock market. To be sure, there are some who see the concurrent strength of shares and bullion as stemming from the same source – namely, inflationary pressures.  The argument is solid and there is no way to refute it, since no one can say exactly why shares are rising.  Whatever the reason, bullion’s ascent is easier to understand:  It is occurring simply because the central banks have been inflating their respective currencies to the point of valuelessness. But while this ever-accelerating process of debasement has the

Stocks and bullion have been moving in tandem

potential to drive precious-metal prices into the ozone, it seems unlikely that share prices would benefit from such a scenario, implying as it does a looming catastrophe for the global economy.

What this suggests is that although bullion quotes could conceivably be goosed to the moon if the world’s currency system were to collapse, shares prices could be driven only so high by panic. For in the final analysis, corporate stocks are tethered to the real world of earnings multiples, cash flow, inventory and depreciation in a way that gold and silver are not. And while the imagination can run wild with gold and silver valuations in a world presumed to have lost all trust in paper money, the future value of, say, IBM’s service contracts is going to be limited ultimately by more mundane concerns.

Extreme Predictions

So, if the stock market were to plummet, do we expect gold and silver prices fall with it? The answer is no, but only because we think stocks will ultimately be undone by a collapsing dollar.  That’s not exactly a black-swan event, since nothing could be more predictable than the collapse of a currency that is already fundamentally worthless. But we strongly doubt that shares and gold would decouple sufficiently to simultaneously produce the extreme valuations predicted, respectively, by stock-market bears and gold bulls. To be more specific, although we think it’s at least possible that the Dow could eventually fall below 1000 as Bob Prechter has famously predicted, it seems inconceivable that an ounce of gold would be trading at that time for $5000 or more, as some well-known gurus have forecast. More likely, in our view, is that, come hell or high water, bullion will perform very well relatively to virtually every other class of investible asset.

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  • FranSix October 16, 2010, 6:07 pm

    In another viewpoint from the same writer about negative implied rates, you have the reason why gold may be supported while equities and commodities may decline. It makes a fascinating and complicated read, if you follow the links ad infinitum:

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/08/04/306206/the-perils-of-releasing-the-repo-rate/

    The upshot is that there is already massive short positions in treasuries and motivated buyers to settle those positions, even though they must engage in negative repos. Means that a treasury collapse is unlikely.

  • flore October 16, 2010, 11:00 am

    Brokers and traders will show you, “turn your gold into wealth”, “put it to productive use, Trade It”! “Sell your gold and buy it again, many times”. “Do this and find the value lost from your youth”!

    But I say, spend your time in the company of truly wealthy ones, see how they make gold lie very still! Know this now, the world will again, in your time, feel value in gold as never before. And that value will be as the “productive use of holding wealth thru the fire of change”. “Yes, you can also walk in the footsteps of giants”.

    Think now in light of the real world around us. Hold your assets in the sun of day, what do we see? A government bond denominated in a currency? Now, remove the currency from the bond, show what is in your hand? Hear me now, we see nothing of “productive use”! Yes, there is supply of the currency, and we have demand for the currency, but the end product is as the space between stars! Even in this “light of day” a trader/ government will tell you, “hold not that commodity, gold, for it is as a dead, unproductive asset”. I say, run from these lies, for they see not deep in the future!

    Is this not true? I an slow, but many think for me. Read please:

    “Noone can see the value of a real asset when knowing how many currency units it is denominated in. Value is only known when holding one real asset next to another real asset and comparing the currency unit valuations of both. Use as an example, a $75,000 $US Mercedes and a small apartment, also $75,000. They can be traded using the currency as a temporary holding until the transaction is complete. The car and apartment are viewed as having productive use of equal value. However, it is the items that have the value, not the currency unit! The currency is of but momentary value expressed as “the intention of a trade completion”. Complete the trade and “poof” the units hold no future value. At this point in time, everything in the world is “denominated” in currencies that have no use, except to complete the trade! Trillions upon trillions of digitized currency are currently being held for the “completion of commerce”, extending out into other lifetimes! Of course we are speaking of any form of currency denominated debt, be it government or private.

    The major threat to this collection of wealth holdings would be the introduction of any real asset currency. Any country that could “resource a currency” of use the world over does pose a threat to the wealth of nations greater then war! It is in the realm of possibilities, that a gold or oil based system would bring a resolution to the present structure as equal to ” a nuclear war of currencies”. Our concept of value, would indeed have to start over. “

    • BDTR October 16, 2010, 2:54 pm

      Few paying attention would argue that the extreme economic conditions presently being experienced do not have a high correlation to identifiable historic examples containing similar cause; enormous, unsustainable public and private debt, and similar effect; a strategic, nominal currency debasement.

      True as well is that uncertainty invariably evolves to collapse of confidence in parabolic fashion under conditions of a no-option, inflationary strategy that at it’s outset can be sold to the market as manageable to the recovery of balance.

      At the outset, when governing authority commits to monetizing irreversibly bad debt by assuming vast new debt, denomination value results requires no guesswork to the inevitable. We are there NOW. Its social repercussions are another matter.

      But, to gauge its relative pace by means of historically reliable measures of value is the challenge, but again, it’s exclusive to those paying attention to what has earned that counterpart status over economic history.

      We live in a society that has had its retrospective sense systematically obscured if not destroyed by a predatory fantasy. Small wonder that a relative few have so far successfully shaken it off. That, too, is historically repetitive, but corrects parabolically as shown in this link. To chart-watchers it’s a familiar pattern.

      The many always come lately.

      http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/German_Hyperinflation.jpg

  • flore October 16, 2010, 10:56 am

    Knowing the future direction and price of gold will be useless for anyone who invests in paper gold! In the near future “timing” will be nothing. What you are holding will be everything!

  • FranSix October 16, 2010, 2:41 am

    I didn’t see a ‘reply to the reply’ button, so I will leave you all with this article. Thank-you G.L.

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/10/12/367506/gold-man-sachs-we-love-gooooooold/

    Bond markets are essential to the economy, but with interest rates so low, gold is performing. As Goldman Sachs has pointed out, gold is strongly correlated with the inverted 10-year TIPS rate.

    You can’t buy a shotgun shack full of dry goods with 10-year TIPS. Gold is very similar in that it just sits there, but can appreciate in value unlike other commodities when interest rates challenge the zero bound.

    • Robert October 16, 2010, 6:41 am

      I hear the “Gold will correct when Treasury Yields start rising, as they must, from the current near zero levels”

      The challenge with this is that the US can not service its existing debt without issuing more debt- therefore, increasing yields means that explicit public default will become necessary… who out there really thinks TPTB will choose explicit default over the more user-friendly manner of debasement?

      Higher Gold prices are baked in the cake, and it has nothing to do with stock prices, or forward corporate earnings.

      In a scenario where interest rates start increasing organically, the pressure on governmental (and possibly societal) collapse will only intensify the other reason people buy gold- fear.

  • Bradley October 15, 2010, 7:35 pm

    Mike, can I be your friend?
    re: holders of gold, I also think flore is correct. I have Craigslist ads up quite frequently to sell gold, as I swap out of one thing into another.

    I’ve had responses to my ads from a small number of people, some have become regular customers, others reply saying that they want to buy and then back out, then the price goes higher and they reply again, timidly asking about what’s for sale. I get the distinct impression that many want to hold at least some gold, but can’t pull the trigger especially as the price rises.

    When a transaction does occur, it is quite a visual shock to see the PILE of paper dollars one has to exchange for a few little gold coins…

  • gary leibowitz October 15, 2010, 7:25 pm

    You make a one sided presumption that has to result in gold going to the moon. That is not exactly an objective view. How about the assumption that equities is rising on a rational basis and gold is not. Equities are married to earnings and both are going up. Gold on the other hand is going up becuase it “expects” the dollar to be trashed, inflation to rise out of control and the combination causing total carnage to the world.

    Presented this way I would have to side with history. It will be extremely rare for a scenario described by gold faithful. Just as the world did not come to an end with the gulf disaster so too will the world continue after the economic debacle of round two.

    Does others see this article as extremely slanted in favor a a preconcieved outcome? I think you should apply the same objectivity that is apparant in your hidden pivot method. Basing the idea that gold is rising due to rational behavior while eaquities is not is odd. If earnings isn’t a more rational decision then future expectations then I don’t know what is.

    • FranSix October 15, 2010, 7:38 pm

      It might be that reported earnings will require major revisions going forward. The equity markets are rife with derivatives as much as the credit markets are.

    • gary leibowitz October 15, 2010, 11:09 pm

      FranSix,

      I am a perma-bear so the idea that future earnings will eventually catch the market by surprise is something I suspect will happen. I just have a hard time rationalizing why gold is justified as an investment today when the reasons for owning it make marginal sense to me. A falling dollar makes sense. America becoming a 3rd world country while other large industialized countries stay solvent is not an idea that I grasp.

      As a technical trade it sure looks like it has room to move up. I have played in the futures market years ago and the 2 commodities that I can remember moving very fast in a very short time is gold and orange juice. I don’t have the discipline to know when to get out, so for these commodities I stay away. it might turn out to be foolish but I have to live within my own emotional behavior. i.e. sleep at night.

  • mikeck October 15, 2010, 5:56 pm

    You are correct, they will not buy it, but so far no one has refused it or silver when gotten as a gift.

    Mike

  • Richard October 15, 2010, 4:07 pm

    Amen, to that flore. Whatever the number is of people who hold more than a handful (literally) of gold in the U.S., it is a very, very small percentage of the population.

  • DG October 15, 2010, 2:14 pm

    Gold has rallied consistently with the benefit of rising stocks, as if gold yelled, “cover me, I’m going up!” This has provided gold the opportunity to keep folks out of the gold trade because no one would want to own some lunatic investment like gold when sane stocks were an alternative and at that moment, going up, too. Those folks will eventually come to the dark side…..When the cover stops, the end will be near.
    As far as the djia/au ratio goes I’ve wondered about that one, too. We really only have two data point lows, the 30’s and the 70’s…I believe that unity may be too high, given the fact that those previous cycle lows occurred with magnitudes less relative debt and had enjoyed most of the cycle on a gold standard. Who knows where it will go? It reminds me of trying to pick the potential lows for dotcom stocks. Cash seems like a viable low valuation, but the cash is on fire.

    ..and here we are worrying about catching the next $5 (either way). I get it, I want that $5, too, but the bigger picture dwarfs the next hour.

  • flore October 15, 2010, 1:35 pm

    I hear all the time about gold going up and that almost everybody has gold if you believe the main stream media… Well guys, I can tell you that almost nobody has gold… nobody… perhaps 3 in thousand actually possess fysical gold… and from these 3 only 3 in a thousand as a substantial part of the portfolio….Tell your whole family to buy gold.. nobody will do it..and that’s a fact…

    • GlennH October 15, 2010, 6:40 pm

      Flore, who are you talking about, North Americans? I think much more Europeans especially the 60 + crowd have some gold put away. I lived through 2 currancy crisis in S.A. and I would say 1 out 2 had some gold ussually as chains or bracelets.

  • Chris T. October 15, 2010, 12:08 pm

    Well an Au/Dow ratio of 0,2 is surely unlikely but 1-1,5, at whatever nominals is conceivable!

    • BDTR October 15, 2010, 1:41 pm

      Well, Chris, at least for the foreseeable future I think that you’re correct.

      Rather than Precter’s dire Dow of 1k, at the current rate of periodic QE and other Fed facilities doling out @ +$100m per month, why not a 36k Dow with a corresponding $36k oz au?

      The policy die is cast at the Fed and any contraction in money supply utterly collapses any semblance of manageable economy or functional banking.

      Panic is no option. We’re too far along already.

    • BDTR October 15, 2010, 1:42 pm

      (Correction: That’s $100b per month.)

  • mario cavolo October 15, 2010, 8:16 am

    “…For in the final analysis, corporate stocks are tethered to the real world of earnings multiples, cash flow, inventory and depreciation in a way that gold and silver are not…”

    Indeed while the game is now obviously to inflate it all upwards in a tizzy of economic insanity, that might work quite nicely for awhile but in the end if people’s incomes / corporate earnings, etc. don’t keep up, then stocks will fall much harder than gold which will be perceived more and more as a disaster hedge. The question is: with the unfolding of this latest macro scenario moving forward, which assets / commodities might also start being regarded more and more as a hedge against the impending disaster, against the flood of liquidity, etc. For example, we see the ags going up steadily and that has a legitimate bullish reason with global food demand certainly increasing….there are so many possibilities…

    Cheers for a nice weekend all, Mario

    • redwilldanaher October 15, 2010, 4:45 pm

      Jim Rogers, is that you? Wholeheartedly agree with you and Rick here “Mario”! LOL.

  • FranSix October 15, 2010, 5:09 am

    I think interest rates will determine the price stability in gold should there be a flash crash.

    Ok, so we are anticipating a crash scenario. Line up the usual suspects, and you get discount rate declines, widening credit spreads and stock market declines.

    But interest rates are so low, that this narrows the spread between gold lease rates and the discount rate. That means there is increasing risk in the face value of bullion leases, but not bullion.

    So I think you have the correct price pick here, Rick and we’ll see price stability in the bullion.

  • Other Paul October 15, 2010, 5:06 am

    Rick,
    Interesting article. Thank you.
    From RA: “For in the final analysis, corporate stocks are tethered to the real world…”

    Corporations can survive almost total disaster, for examples, Japanese (Mitsubishi) and German (VW) companies after WWII. Whether the stockholders survived, literally and legally, I don’t know.

    In a Mad Max (MM) aftermath, flashing someone your brokerage account statement showing 500 shares of Apple may not get you a can of beans “on account,” but those shares could have some value in a 10% MM scenario.

    Gold and silver will physically survive in someone’s hands in MM land, but maybe not in the “rightful owner’s” hands.

    I believe that many buy-and-hold PM owners consider PMs insurance against a currency collapse. They expect PMs to have decided advantage over fiat and debit/credit cards when it comes to checkout time at your local grocery store during “stressful” situations.

    Believing in the scenarios presented in the novels One Second After and The Road could even make the most diehard goldbugs decide to party now, like it’s 1999.

  • Edward October 15, 2010, 2:54 am

    With respect to this subject, specifically how gold will perform, I highly recommend http://fofoa.blogspot.com/