Desperate for Oil, We’ll Drill More Land

[With debt metastasizing out-of-control and the States threatening rebellion against Washington, we asked some frequent contributors to the Rick’s Picks forum how they thought the nation would look five years from now, economically speaking.  In the essay below, Ross Moyer predicts that America’s growing energy needs will force the exploitation of heretofore off-limits local regions such as the energy-rich Bakken Formation, which includes large swaths of North Dakota and Montana. He also expects physical gold to increasingly become the world’s standard of value relative to fiat money, even if a gold standard itself has not taken root. RA]

If, by some strange quirk of fate, some of us have forgotten the following fact of life, we have, of late, been only too well reminded that a great many things in the realm of human affairs can change drastically in a very short period of time. Sometimes immense transformations are wrought by acts of God, as in the horrific earthquake and tsunami in Japan; but, more often than not, it is our own collective actions that leave us absolutely stunned at how radically altered, literally and figuratively, mankind’s circumstances can become in what seems like no time at all.

With this less than cheery idea firmly in mind, I was asked by Rick to compose a piece on my vision of what the economic landscape will look like some five years hence. While I was honored to be asked, I have to admit that I’ve found the task daunting. The truth is, I have just a few firm convictions about what will constitute our collective financial and economic condition in the U.S., let alone globally, come the year 2016. Still, I do have a few ideas, so, for good or ill, here is some grist for the mill. 

The events of the last few weeks and days in the Middle East and in Japan strike me as being portentous in a number of ways, particularly with respect to the unrelentingly worrisome problem of global energy supply. Putting aside the fact that I am a subscriber to Peak Oil, and, more generally, Peak Resources, it seems clear that the collective political upheaval in and around the major oil producing nations, however it may play out, starkly reminds us, yet again, how tenuous is our access to oil. In short, it is becoming evident that foreign oil, for a variety of reasons, is, despite the fearsome presence of the U.S. military, well down the path of being removed from this nation’s list of reliable energy options.

Likewise, nuclear energy, whatever the final outcome of the reactor calamities in Japan, and regardless of whether some number of the population continue to advocate on behalf of nuclear power as a worthy, even, essential, contributor to our energy needs, is likely, for political reasons, to diminish as an option, at least for a decent interval. Where does that leave us? What are our other choices, and which of the remaining ones are we most likely to have availed ourselves of as we arrive at 2016?

‘Green’ Won’t Cut It

Quite simply, our other choices include developing the so called green technologies- which, quite frankly, show insufficient capability at present to address our prodigious needs — or, less nobly, putting a full-court press on initiating domestic efforts to dig up and gouge out of the earth that which keeps the heat on, the autos running, ships sailing, freight moving etc. etc. By my lights, as 2016 comes into view, the U.S. is likely to be well down the road to shoring up its own energy needs by exploiting heretofore off-limits local regions such as The Bakken Formation. Whatever the well advertised pitfalls and difficulties inherent in fracking, and horizontal drilling consist of, they will prove to be far less of an obstacle to the collective will than trying to secure the productive capacity of oil fields in hostile regions of the world.

The Bakken Formation, for those who are not familiar with it, is a large, energy resource rich area that includes, among other parts of North America, large swaths of territory in North Dakota and Montana.  As Wikipedia succinctly puts it: “Besides being a widespread prolific source rock for oil when thermally mature, there are also significant producible reserves of oil within the Bakken formation itself.

Custer’s Last Stand

By the time 2016 appears, a sense of necessity will have long since impelled a veritable locust plague of mining and drilling operations to descend on The Bakken for the sole purpose of churning up the earth for every scrap of energy and mineral wealth available from approximately The Little Bighorn to White Butte. As many of you may know, Little Bighorn was the legendary spot in Montana where General George Armstrong Custer came a cropper at the hands of an intrepid army of amalgamated native American Indian tribes. Time will tell if Custer’s last stand will be, on some level, an apt metaphor for a major energy gambit in the heartland of America?

On a final, and rather different, note, with respect to currency, particularly the world’s tottering reserve medium of exchange, try not express surprise when I offer that the dollar will continue to lose purchasing power. That condition has been ordained, and the only question is how orderly will be the loss of the greenback’s purchasing power. I expect that as we arrive at 2016, if civilization is still a going concern, odds are quite high that physical gold will have resoundingly reestablished itself as the planet’s reference point of value. I do not believe that an old fashioned-style gold standard is in the cards, but, rather, that physical gold will float freely — it does not presently — against all fiat currency foreign and domestic. Very powerful players are positioned, and positioning for this, and a bet against the arrival of what some call “Freegold” or, what Robert Zoellick of The World Bank has dubbed “Reference Point Gold,” is a bet against, among other entities, every central bank in the world.

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  • Rich March 27, 2011, 4:23 am

    Remindful of Cold Fusion two decades ago, only with a better pedigree:

    http://www.mit.edu/~chemistry/faculty/nocera.html

    Then there’s also the BloomBox in use in Silicon Valley:

    http://bloomenergy.com/customers/

  • myanmarexpert March 26, 2011, 12:46 am

    I am in total agreement with you about “Freegold”. It is rarely referred to, even by many of the gold bulls (bugs), but I would recommend everyone to read up on it, the best place being fofoa.blogspot.com

    Freegold provides an interesting counterpoint to Gold Standard proponents, providing both the flexibility of fiat money, plus the protection that is ‘gold’, and naturally at a much higher value than gold is priced at today.

  • Jim N March 25, 2011, 9:45 pm

    Couple of thoughts. First off, i think that all us sheep will have to learn to use less. Whatever it is. The constraint will certainly be energy costs, but overall living costs. Technology can certainly help some. The new light bulbs in my place use like 20% of a standard one. That’s good. Europe and Asia certainly know how to live on less…a lot less. I believe in trends, and the trend used to be bigger in the good ol usa. Now it is trending down. By economic neccessity. Does anyone not think, based on what we are seeing and how things are trending in the housing arena that people won’t be living in such glamorous and huge homes like thery were before? WOn’t happen overnight, but this trend will continue. It does take a lot less energy to heat a 1200 sf home than a 3000 sf one.

    Same thing certainly goes for gas guzzler vs efficient cars.

    My second thought revolves around the WHY ( the real why, not the public one) we as a nation have refused to invest in the abundent natural gas resources that we have that would certainly wean us off the mid east oil tit. It could be done, and you hear nothing of it from the clowns in DC. I suspect it has to do with keeping us appreciating and needing the military to “protect” our interests. They need to feel needed, and so do all the suppliers of the defense industry. Thinking about this, i don’t think it has to do with common sense, it is all about “them” that are controling what is happening and pulling the strings of goverenment worldwide. Saying that makes me feel like a Mel Gibson conspirast dude.

    my best to all…jim

    • DG March 25, 2011, 10:19 pm

      Natgas is a bounty here in the US. Lots, with most of the big stuff just recently discovered. I imagine that we don’t embrace it wholly because it would be a direct hit on Big Green. Natural gas is the cheapest electrical gen plant to construct. They go up quickly and cheaply. Producing cheap energy is the last thing Big Green wants. Tough to sell uneconomical solutions against economical ones. Therefore, what little carbon nat gas does produce it is deemed too much. While we wait for Big Green to show its true color (brown – full of conflict of interest and payola?) the natgas is not going anywhere.

      I am reading “Big Rich”. It is a great read about the Texas Oilmen of last century. A couple of takeaways…the Bakkens today remind me some of early Texas Wildcatting…get a lot of land and start poking holes. The other is that natgas was not even used as a fuel until the 1950’s…they started in the 30’s, but not bigtime until just 6 decades ago. It was a waste product that was simply burnt off…I imagine 2 or 3 decades from now folks will look back on now and say,”they had all that natgas and they didn’t put it in their vehicles? Weird.”

      Other tidbits…In the early 20th century oil got down to 10 cents a barrel during gluts. Typically, it was 50 c to a buck….Spindletop was the biggest producer in the world at the turn of the century….In the 50’s, post WW2 Arab oil at a buck was a disaster for texans who needed it at least at $2.5…We won WW2 because we produced and used 500 million barrels of oil to the enemies 250…most coming from Texas. You would be remiss if you didn’t thank Texas Oilmen for WW2 victory. Of course, they got plenty of thanks in their bank accounts…but without that oil, we would have lost. Most everything gets down to BTU’s, including war.

      Our relationship with oil has been very, very brief, yet it has delivered mankind unbelievable (and widely unappreciated) productivity gains. I imagine we will gain quite a bit of appreciation shortly(this decade). Blows me away how much energy we use for the military, simply maintaining it…I fear, someday we are going to wish that we had been much more prudent. If you only have so many bullets, you certainly don’t want to waste them all at the range…

    • fallingman March 25, 2011, 11:21 pm

      Yup.

      Except, those cool energy saving fluorescent bulbs that the Feds have mandated we all use by 2012…not so good.

      They have enough mercury in them to contaminate 6,000 gallons of water EACH..so you MUST recycle. You absolutely cannot just throw them away.

      And god forbid you break a fluorescent bulb in your house. They give you elaborate cautions for cleanup to follow, but you really should call out a hazmat team. No kidding.

      http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/CFL_recycling.htm

      Not in my house.

      I can hear it now. “What ya in for kid?”

      Incandescents.

  • dan March 25, 2011, 8:10 pm

    Great comments and ideas also some facts ,but they do not fit into thePTB agenda…pay thru the nose and we will control all that there is………slaves to the end we will be even if we are free…..to pay higher prices and more taxes…
    Just don’t complain …since you are ‘special’ for living in a free country……..My ass

    a real tea party ‘brews’…….

  • Ross March 25, 2011, 6:56 pm

    Make of this what you will. I’ll only offer that this sort of seemingly marvelous invention comes along at periodic intervals only to go nowhere. Hopefully, this time will be different.

    http://www.livemint.com/2011/03/23001656/Tata-signs-up-MIT-energy-guru.html

  • Rich March 25, 2011, 5:33 pm

    Are Gary Shilling and I the only dollar bulls left?
    USD still targeting 115:
    http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/gallery.html?s=%24usd

    • fallingman March 25, 2011, 6:26 pm

      Hardly Rich. It actually seems to be…forgive the oxymoronic phrase…a fairly popular contrarian bet.

      Jimmy Rogers just said he was looking to buy dollars, adding however, that if it didn’t rally here, there’s another 3-4% on the downside and then look out. That’s good company.

      Steve Sjuggerrud is pounding the table to go long dollars. Chris Temple of the National Investor has been bullish for a long time. Several chart types who see the falling wedge and the chance for a big bounce up out of the wedge are also bullish. Oh, And I think Tim Geithner and the Nank are…in public. And who would know better than the clowns safeguarding the clownbuck? They wouldn’t lie, would they?

      Problem is, it hasn’t rallied when it “should” have.

      Any short to intermediate erm bounce is a non-story IMO. The epic and inevitable collapse is coming and very few, outside of fora such as this seem genuinely concerned.

      Did I say the collapse is inevitable at this point? And what a spectacle that’s gonna be. Paper in fire. Poof.

  • GlennH March 25, 2011, 5:03 pm

    Hey Martin good comment. North of the border, we have been getting our wallets cleaned out on the price of fuel for 30 years, hence I have never owned a 4X4 gas guzzler and always lived close enough to my office so I could walk. It just made sense to me, and unlike most people I spent 15 years driving out to oilfield sites with an actual use for a 4×4. (Mini van never got stuck once, although I never had the respect of the crew. Not enough chrome on those mini vans. 🙂

    Like all problems, energy is integrated within the bizarreness and high cost of the suburban design of American life. If you choose to weigh 280 lbs and live 30 miles from work in a oversize dwelling where you have to drive, at high speed, to buy your big gulp and econ pack of chips, you are probably at some point going to stress the system…likely your own first. It has nothing to do with oil here and oil there. It is a simply “a choice” and in my view the major institutions of the USA and their people are actually quite well aligned in both their current views and future vision. People do not want to save, be efficient or actually ‘go without’ . For me the amazing part is people actually think the drink and snack cost them 1.99 $ not the 15 $ if you include cost of driving. There is a reason 7-11’s sell gas.

    As any self help group guru will tell you. Start framing the problem by using ‘I’ and not him, her, they etc.

    • Martin Snell March 25, 2011, 5:25 pm

      Leaving aside Harperites I think you have hit on the difference between the Canadian and American philosophies.

      In Canada, 0.7 cars per licensed driver. In the US 1.01. In Canada people drive Civics and Corollas, in the US Camrys and Accords. Of course the US lifestyle is non-negotiable, damn the cost.

    • Buster March 25, 2011, 5:54 pm

      In total agreement on this point. Personal responsibility must always be the first response. Let not the talk of ‘them’ be the extent of our inaction.
      I witness the lack of personal responsibility on a daily basis. On this point, how many of us here who bemoan the actions of the Banksters still leave their money in the bank, or trust the financial system with their pension fund, or rely on big Pharma’ instead of learning about natural (& often far more effective) alternatives. etc, etc…
      All the answers are there but the majority keep putting their faith in corrupt men, even when they know they are so. I see supposedly inteligent people looking to our leaders for the solutions when they are the problem. Ever try begging a shark not to bite you on moral grounds? No? Then why look for good from the corrupt? Like a battered wife crying over their lot but willingly going back for another beating, is how most people are.
      We vote with our feet, not just with talk.

    • Larry D March 25, 2011, 6:17 pm

      Martin – on my last trip to Canada I saw Volkswagens, Hyundais, Fords, Chevrolets, Subarus, SMARTs, BMWs, Audis and even an occasional pickup truck, quite besides the Hondas and Toyotas.

      One thing I didn’t notice was a lot of bent up and rusty older cars like you see down in the States. Maybe they all got shredded in a cash-for-clunker program, eh?

      Your *1.01 per licensed driver* might be accounted for by the clunker the kid drives or the motorcycle under the tarp.

  • laurent March 25, 2011, 5:02 pm

    Right on Carol. Another smoking gun. Why is it that the process of thermal depolymerization such as used in Carthage Missouri developed by Brian Apel, referenced in Discover Magazine May, 2003 not being fast laned for development in every major city of America. It solves all the process of refuse, environmentally enhancing and all at practically no cost to the tax payer. This is the solution. This process of turning anything into oil is being kept under wraps because it exposes the natural process within the earth’s bowels of how oil is constantly being formed. Thermal depolymerzation does in two hours what takes the earth a century to accomplish. This must never be understood by the masses. It would expose the peak oil lie. Oil reserves are constantly being restocked however in a different timeline that what we are draining them.
    Anything into oil.. http://discovermagazine.com/2003/may/featoil

    • Rich March 25, 2011, 5:31 pm

      Brilliant…

  • DG March 25, 2011, 4:53 pm

    As an investment, the Bakkens have been unfrackingbelievable. Check out BEXP. The water is warm, come on in! DYODD, but BEXP has plenty of great presentations on their site to give you an idea of what is going on in the Bakkens.

    Dismissing Peak Oil as simply a “scaremongering” thesis, denies a lot of data. Given the choice, I would take arguing Peak Oil any day of the week over anthropogenic global warming (all theory, no hat, I mean data). Yes, the USA has vast resources. Are they finite? Likely. If you dismiss Peak Oil as a thesis, explain why every single well has declined in production fairly soon after it started. Where’s the abiotic perpetual oil machine? Cantarell is in rapid decline before our eyes. The North Slope took only 10 years to decline rapidly. The Bakkens are going full throttle, and they may add a couple, maybe 3 million barrels a day for some time.

    We say, “$200 oil will find lots of oil”. True enough, but who cares? Look what $150 oil did to the economy in 2008. $200 oil peacefully co-existing with our current profit structure is fantasy. It will be an economic disaster, but it will ultimately yield the efficiencies and conservation that is the best solution. The thesis of Peak Oil is not that we will run out of oil, but we will run out of cheap oil. Pile on the fact that most energy is created in other currencies outside the dollar only magnifies the problem.

    The idea that we have cheap oil abounding and that this is some conspiracy ignores massive amounts of well data. (“Twilight in the desert”)

    Energy, and in particular, revolutionary energy (the kind we can’t presently even imagine), needs to be job number one for scientist and VC’s. sigh. Instead, we have targeted energy at social networking. We need to think way beyond PV and wind. “Sun In a Can”? Some sort of machine that harness the electromagnetic energy all around us?

    • Rich March 25, 2011, 5:25 pm

      BEXP up 35 times in two years, ready for a pullback to 26:
      http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/gallery.html?s=bexp

      We like Oasis above 13.88 that just raised $700 B to extract more of the 500 B barrels of light sweet crude in the Bakken Three Rivers Williston:
      http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/gallery.html?s=oas
      http://oasispetroleum.com/

    • fallingman March 25, 2011, 5:31 pm

      Interesting contributions.

      “The thesis of Peak Oil is not that we will run out of oil, but we will run out of cheap oil.”

      Exactly DG.

      Maybe I’m wrong. I’m no expert, but the era of cheap oil seems to be over for good, barring a serious decrease in demand brought on by an economic collapse…not by serious conservation efforts. As a society…as a civilization…we are geared to cheap energy. Lord help us if that has to change. And how could it not?

  • Buster March 25, 2011, 3:29 pm

    Energy, -now there’s another can of worms.
    Many here are well aware of the long tentacles of corruption and self serving goings on in government and big business. Energy is no different. As someone who’s spent a considerable time studying the subject I’d sugest that we need to question everything that we’ve been led to believe about the subject.
    A little study of Tesla gives some idea that there are probably things buried from public knowledge for the benefit of the few who want to control everything.
    So blinded to posibilities are most of us that I dare to say here what I and many others suspect, and have even witnessed some.
    Such raidical ideas like: oil is not made from decomposed plants & animals but by some other process happeining inside the Earth, so is actually renewable, electrical current can yield more than 100% efficiency with the use of pulses & coils as well as other techniques that have already been utilised to give free energy anywhere without the need for a centrally controlled supply.
    Anyone who’s studied this subject probably knows what I’m talking about, though to anyone else the talk of zero point energy is a heresy and sinful.
    Despite all this, what I would expect the future to hold is for increasing carbon taxes covering every possible activity and for the carbon market to become the biggest market on earth, thus pushing up the cost of everything for the sheeple worldwide, plus continued securing of all known resouces & energy supplies as well as suppression of ‘unknown’ limitless supplies of energy.
    Why I think this will be the case is because that is where the Powerz have placed their ill ‘gotten bets, and since they are still in control, that is where the tail wags the dog towards.

    • Steve March 25, 2011, 5:31 pm

      Buster, I agree in theory in regard to the untapped sources of energy and the possibility of being able to find better ways of using the energy that is available. The main point is not necessarily the actual energy, but; who controls the energy and for what purpose. Carol makes this point quite well, and in excellent fashion. No one seems to want to address the issues, even if on a global scale the issues are minute. When one places wind turbines in the Columbia Gorge the energy that drove the winds east is changed and reduced. That in turn has an affect on whatever is transported by the winds to some other location. Energy taken from the winds of the world is not free, but; a taking of energy that once served other purposes. Solar energy has served its purpose of heating the earth forever. Each solar panel put into use takes energy that served one purpose naturally and takes it to unnatural use. Tesla’s greatest understanding was of the Earth’s Electrical Field, and its heartbeat. All matter is energy (or a source of energy), but; that energy must be brought to move from one place to another in order to be useful. If the Earth’s electrical field moves opposite rotation (Tesla’s earth heartbeat) – there may be something, but; its not free. Electrons must be able to be harnessed in direct, or alternating ways. It takes energy to lift a bucket of water, or rain, but; the water produces nothing until it is dumped and energy to overcome gravity is released to work (hydro-power). Does it matter if the winds of the Pacific drawn through the Columbia Gorge are robbed of energy? Will this very small scale ‘taking’ of energy destroy something in Australia – we do not know, but; the effects should be considered. If the earth is overheating, then in fact solar energy robbery from the natural course of earth heating may be beneficial – but; does 60 years of high orbit imagery establish anything useful in the term of millions of earth life years? The possibility of carbon linked energy created by non-standard means remains a possibiltiy. Yet, the carbon, the oxgyen, the hydrogen in methane must be stable and linked (created) by energy to produce energy for man upon its release by burning. I can make fire from water by breaking HOH, but; it is not free, and not even a 100% return. The tree takes the energy of the sun to create the carbon compound that man releases by burning the wood. On the Columbia River 19 million 30 pound sources in ‘salmon’ went into the vast oceans to gather oil to return to the land every year. The oil of the spawned salmon nurished the animals, the insects, the resident fish, man, and the watershed plants as the bear and eagles carried the nutrients up the banks of the watershed. Hydro power has nearly eliminated that natural energy source, a robbing of one source of energy to serve another purpose. I disagree that there is any such thing as ‘free’ energy. Tesla’s tapping of the heartbeat of the earth could provide a vast source of energy because the electrical heart of the earth creates the waves of electrons necessary to produce direct, and alternating current. One question that should be asked is what affect will be had in Africa when we effectively rob energy to create electricity in the Columbia Gorge by wind generation. Not much would be the answer, but; not much is still an issue because it is a taking, not the discovery of something new. How is oil ‘made’? It really doesn’t matter how oil is made. The chemical compound oil is created by the bonding together of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, as three elements that must be forged by energy, in order to give energy, but; to get one must take. Sun energy creates that hydro-carbon by gathering the elements with the help of plants, nothing is free. In a possibility -somehow the earth brings together the elements necessary to make a hydro-carbon 10,000 ft under the crust. It still takes x amount of energy to produce that hydro-carbon compound for man to drill and bring to the surface in order to release the stable energy by burning for man. A massive release of energy near Japan caused the Earth to increase in rotation speed, at a cost. The sun sends energy in abundance, most of which bounces off, yet; if that energy comes unfiltered man will not survive. Everyone is concerned about gasoline, diesel, and.

      What of fertilizer and water ? Man can live without gasoline, or diesel – yes ? What of water ? We may wish to look at Japan as the store shelves are empty, and this natural event a small one in the scale of a whole nation brought to its knees. We may wish to look at what centralization creates, as is the norm now of tyrannical powers who seek power and control of other men by oil and monetary fraud.

      As for me it really isn’t going to matter in this life, so why not just live big and burn large? The U.S. is smart to use the rest of the world’s oil first, as long as someone doesn’t wake up and decide its time to hit the storehouse with masses of flesh that can breed faster than the U.S. can kill them. What little affect there is in stealing the energy of the winds in the Columbia Gorge, from the lands of Africa will never be a concern for me, in my lifetime. On the other hand. I am witness to the loss of oil created by the Salmon swimming to the oceans, and returning with that energy to nurish the lands of the West Coast, all for hydro-power for some other state where the party goes on and the bright lights shine all night in a gamble. Its all of little harm. I agree it is little.

    • Buster March 25, 2011, 6:57 pm

      Yes, there is always action and reaction to consider.
      However, as regard the zero point issue that is in all probability like worrying the oceans will dry up by taking a thimble full of water out every thousand years. The zero point energy field is likely explained by the universe being based on electro-magnetism, not thermo nuclear as we are taught. The forming galaxies are said to resemble electrical storms, the action of the rotating galaxy around the central black hole much like an alternator. Magnetism is said to spin an object whilst heating up it’s core, hence the effect on our planet as well as others.
      Devices I have seen working on this principle have shown we really shouldn’t need a centralised power grid. Unfortunately, the developement of such technology has been forced underground if not shut down on grounds of ‘national security’.
      Anyway, it’s a big subject and all I’d say is that there is much that we think we know that we don’t know, and lots more that we don’t know we don’t know.
      ….I think the line goes something like that anyway.

  • mario cavolo March 25, 2011, 11:30 am

    This is a great point, that there are plenty of untapped resources (and other socio-political economic choices) in the states which at a further critical stage can and will be tapped as needed. It is beyond sense how twisted and self-serving the current set of priorities and values coming out of our gov’t and banking system is until you take a moment to understand that in the end the system and its members are self-serving, not country-serving. Alas, we’ve been beating that point to death for far too long. I mean to say, what are they waiting for? There are so many things, so many new policy and action choices the country’s leadership could be making to get the whole country back on track, but instead, self-serving greed to a degree once again for the record books of history to note, and the citizens to powerlessly suffer the consequences of their “leaders”. A mockery of the word.

    I conclude once again, that the supposed economic insanity of Bernanke’s liquidity pump is simpler in its reasons; nothing more or less than a schoolyard child flipping the finger to their #1 rival; the response to the Chinese for unfairly refusing to meaningfully move the yuan peg. Meanwhile, what have they done, what billions have they printed, committed and executed in the real world daily economics of society to invigorate the various economic sectors? A shameful pittance in comparison to their looting shenanigans…

    Cheers, Mario

    • redwilldanaher March 25, 2011, 5:32 pm

      Thoughts Mario? Thx in advance.

      64 Million seems a little high to me, even for China.

      http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/watch/id/601007/n/China-s-Ghost-Cities

    • mario cavolo March 26, 2011, 5:25 am

      Sounds about right! I assume you’re referring to the observation that there may be around 64 million empty apartments around China. Here are the supportive points to understand what it may or may not mean.

      Let me start by thoughts on the idea that empty apartments are both normal and regarded as an asset store by Chinese society, and so therefore what seems like alot of empty apartments in, for example, the U.S. doesn’t mean the same thing as it means in greater China.

      1. An empty apartment in China is truly empty. It is a purchased concrete shell which the owner then fits out/designs/decorates. So your home decor/fit out is paid for in cash. The only problem with it is that you move into your finished apartment, but you’re living in a building of other apartments, with perhaps a dozen at a time being fit it, so the noise factor is horrendous – jackhammers, drills, banging, the whole deal. It is one of the craziest things about Chinese culture, yet they all tolerate it.

      A very good reference on this would be my wife and I’s own apartment. We bought a brand new apartment in the new section of Shenyang, south of the river. Comparable, this is like the new Pudong side of the river in Shanghai which had started many years earlier. In the new zone of Shenyang, the Olympics Soccer stadium was built as a major hub and is 1km away from our apt garden. Our apt is next door to the brand new mall/theatre complex with a Walmart Supercenter. In fact, our apt underground parking lot is attached to it, so we can go down the elevator and walk underneath over to Walmart. In our complex, as is typical for apts in greater China region, there are six 30 story buildings, each being around 120 units, surrounding a nice, big garden area with kid’s playground, walking paths, etc.

      We bought our apartment 18 months ago. It still sits empty! And so are probably 80% of the apartments in our complex.

      This is a truly meaningless point in that this way of owning real estate is a normal state of affairs here in the core society of families. As most tenants, we are waiting for them to finish the main construction. We are taking our time decorating ours and so does everyone. Why? Its still noisy with construction so nobody is in a hurry to move in. The local area is also noisy with other construction. The new subway line with a station right past our property will be finished next year sometime. Through this year, my wife will start to decorate the apartment, first put in the main stuff; design and route the electric and extra plumbing pipes for floor heating, kitchen, bathrooms, the core stuff, then finally the finishing and furniture. So while all this is “in process” the apts are in fact “empty”.

      2. Chinese are very big on owning an “asset”. They have a very long term view of their assets and they view owning an empty apt as a very basis asset store with almost zero carrying costs. They don’t get a mortgage and the annual management fees are typically in the range of $100-$200 per year, a pittance.

      I think you get the point, so moving on to other concerns.

      2. Speculators may have indeed gotten too crazy and get stuck holiding 10 empty apartments. We can say there is a danger of that type of ponzi scheme unravelling, and I would only be guessing if it will or not. Knowing that most of the apartments are owned without mortgages or max 50% mortgaged, I would suspect that again, if the market did broadly decline by 30% or so, it would not cause a widespread defaulting for sure. On the other hand, particular speculative developers may get caught and lose loads of money with a few million owners perhaps getting screwed along the way. As a percentage of the market, I really don’t know.

      3. On the issue of “real estate” falsely inflating GDP, Chanos’ favorite point; We need to refute that point quickly. I am amazed such a prominent guy could be so narrow-minded. Indeed China’s GDP #’s are not to be trusted, let’s talk about two crazy reasons.

      1. They are falsely HIGH by these real estate numbers. It is an issue, but I will take the position as I have before that the issue is nowhere near as serious as folks like to make it out to be. They DON”T understand the culture.

      2. They are falsely LOW by the fact that there is, without question, a cash, gray market, off the books economy in China somewhere between 50% to 100% over above gov’t reported GDP stats. So that massive variable unknown, never to be accurately known hanging in the air makes it incredibly hard to collate a set of sensible economic scenarios that may play out.

      3. Trying to analyze the “actual” 64 million? Where the hell are they? I mean, geez, China has 30 1st and second tier cities with total populations of 300 million. (avg 10 million each) The other 1 billion live in the countryside in very basic farm housing. Let’s say that based on my point that empty apts here in China is a normal part of society as I explained, that therefore we have 20% empty apartment of asset inventory. Well 10 million people per city means 3 million households per city and 20% of 3 million is 600,000 empty apartments per city x 30 cities. That’s 18,000,000 million empty apartments. Ok, I’d be willing to bet on that number. But in terms of actual observation, we don’t see them. I mean we all have friends (expats) living all over China and none of us see swaths of empty buildings taking up tens of square kilometers anywhere, so where the hell are they?

      On that note, I would finish with suggesting the speculation thing. Real estate developers building brand new cities, communities across China, keeping in mind many of those new cities are replacing the old, decrepit communities being torn down. Where are the number on how many apts were torn down in China. I am sure also in the millions. I’ll guess there are some ponzi scheme shenanigans going on with bad apt complex low quality communities still empty which were nothing more than ways for ill-gotten money to be funneled, hidden, laundered, etc. In the process of building a new community, millions in fees and taxes and profits would line the pockets of those involved, the govt and construction and utility company leaders and managers. But how widespread?…really don’t know…perhaps 200 such projects across the country, a pittance compared to the total mainstream market.

      Thoughts to consider….and thanks for asking, its interesting to try to look below the surface on such issues.

      Cheers, Mario

    • mario cavolo March 26, 2011, 7:00 am

      I need to add. This is infuriating. I’ve just read the transcript of the video plus the arrogant, ignorant, even racist comments, 95% by people who’ve never even set foot in China. Good grief. The subject of the interview starts it off all wrong, spinning general BS as usual. GILLEM TOLLOCH: ” It is said that there are 64 million empty apartments in China.”

      Geez, what a loaded line. It goes on to say he is “Gillem Tulloch is a Hong Kong-based analyst who has been investigating China’s residential and commercial real estate market.”

      And he uses “It is said” which means he DOESN”T know!! Unbelievable. “It is said…” is a classic PR safety and primer line, it means the person saying it doesn’t have a clue whether it is true or not. He bases his comment on his visit to a few places – he mentions the place in Dong Guan, and the ones out in the middle of nowhere.

      WHERE does he substantiate with any kind of numbers, naming towns, developments, communities the 64 million number? He doesn’t even try, he throws it out there and doesn’t follow up.

      GT: “I think that the occupancy rate in five years will still be around 25%”

      Oh man, he used the word STILL? …so they’re not empty!

      They’re 75% vacant today, that’s 25% occupied, and so let me ask, with more and more Chinese moving into urban areas, millions in fact, what will the occupancy rate be in a few years? Up to perhaps 50%-60-70%. Many will be renters of course and rent will be low. Owners will only be getting a 2-3% annual rental return. I’m not saying its a terrific situation, but there’s nothing so unusual about that comparatively speaking.

      I remember five years ago here in LuJiaZui area, the heart of Pudong along the river, the built a HUGE mall called SuperBrand Mall. It is MASSIVE and gorgeous five years ago it was almost empty for like two years. Now today it is a major hub, packed with people and expensive with every retail and restaurant brand possible. And across the street, they just opened another huge luxury level mall, the IFC mall with the new Ritz Carlton Tower.

      GT: “It can’t stay this way because we’re in the upswing of a bubble, and when the bubble bursts, it will impoverish vast numbers of people.”

      NO, THIS IS WRONG AND MISLEADING.

      It will NOT impoverish vast numbers of people. The article talks about how the vast numbers of poor people don’t own them in the first place, so how will any crash impoverish them?

      The article says GEORGE JIAO and his wife make $900/month and he is a property developer. Nonsense. That’s his official salary. He CHOOSES to live on a budget, sharing a house with others, while socking away the extra cash income he earns that is unreported. Chinese are fantastic at this strategy, they will live like paupers and put $100,000 in the bank! You think George is going to tell the interview how much he really has in his bank account? (I’m not saying this is true of everyone, of course there are plenty of low income people here as anywhere else.)

      Let me make THE point. I’m not saying there isn’t a bubble, of course prices have gone too high, nor reason for concern. Of course there is. And in terms of retail capacity, it certainly seems overbuilt & overcapacity.

      My point is that when the bubble bursts to whatever degree, VAST numbers of people will not be impoverished. That’s the misleading part. I suggest/believe a much narrower number of people will be hurt bad by it, not vast masses, absolutely impossible.

      The masses in China who missed the opportunity to buy have become renters, just like in America, Canada, Australia. It sucks, but that’s the framework of the society, where you can rent for $900 a house that now sells for $500,000. We know people who live in a typical, nice, local 900 sq ft Shanghai apartment that has a market price of $320,000, nuts!!, and rents for $600.

      Cheers, Mario

    • redwilldanaher March 28, 2011, 3:27 pm

      Thx for the detailed responses Mario.

  • PhotoRadarScam March 25, 2011, 8:15 am

    There is actually plenty of oil in North America in Alaska, ND, and the Rockies, but it will take $200 oil before the US begins to take serious steps to develop it. Have you ever wondered why we import so much of it? The actual environmental concerns for land-drilling are fairly minimal. It’s because we are saving it for higher prices, and that time is almost here. This, as part of inflation, is how the US will start to pay down its massive debt.

    • Carol March 25, 2011, 3:33 pm

      Absolutely spot on Photo,

      “Peak oil” is just another name for scaremongering by those in control of the oil so that can make more money (drive prices up). We have more oil under our soil in this country than Saudia Arabia has! Like Photo stated that oil has been intentionally kept off the market. Why drill your own KNOWN resource when you can freely print up monoply money and buy someone elses “scarce” resources. Especially when doing so give your “military industrial complex” a reason for being.

      Anyone who buys into that “peak oil” propoganda better do some serious research. Start by going to youtube and search for lindsey williams. He was the chaplain on the alaska pipeline project and was privey to the top dog insiders in the oil industry. He knows how much oil is under our soil and the numbers would blow you away.

    • Greg March 25, 2011, 6:01 pm

      I’m presently working in the Bakkens and before that the Rocky Mountain oil fields. The USA has plenty of oil underground and underwater. The only peak is in the out-dated technology still employed in many fields and the willful ignorance of our “convinence-first” culture and “self-first” leadership.

      The big “energy” question is WHY are we not re-tooling our infrastructure and industries to capitalize on the immediate and abundant “clean-energy” we have at our drill-tips? We have enough Natural gas sources to solve all speculations and fortune-telling futures. We have so much natural-gas that we could ship to Europe cheaper than they pipe it in from the vodka-pagans. It’s right here, right now!

      God has given us the fat of the land, but we would rather process sugars and flours and sell it as “new and improved.”

      As the 2nd wisest man who ever lived said, “there is nothing new under the sun…” but unfortunately, mankind, collectively, sure loves to come up with ways to believe there is….

  • Martin Snell March 25, 2011, 2:42 am

    You have to wonder if “conservation” will ever enter the picture in the USA. It is the cheapest and fastest way to reduce energy requirements. Just pricing oil at European levels would quickly reduce oil needs while dramatically reducing the trade deficit (half due to oil) – no extra drilling required.

    Energy use is where Americans will eventually see the biggest change in their standard of living (easy prediction because Americans use 25% of the oil with 5% of the population – which long term is pretty unsustainable, especially if oil production has already peaked.) Higher energy costs will change what is normal (big cars, long commutes, suburbs) and so will change how Americans see their lives.

    Of course predicting the future is a mug’s game. Thorium reactors look interesting, fusion reactors do too, and solar breakthroughs could increase efficiency. The deal breaker would/will be a “lower cost, very available” energy supply. Find this and anything is possible – but money needs to be going into looking for it – real money (like on weapons research), not a billion here or there, or corporate welfare programs like ethanol. It’s well past time to get serious.

    • fallingman March 25, 2011, 5:20 pm

      Wait a minute. Does that means we wouldn’t be able to schlep soft drinks and beer and salty snacks around the country on big trucks anymore? Or bottled water drawn straight from pure mountain springs in Fiji? None of those delicious apples and cherries from Chile anymore?

      Whoa, I just realized, this could mean the end of Nascar and monster truck rallies or at least shoot ticket prices sky high. That would all be awful!

      I think we should just use the military to invade countries in a serial fashion to secure access to oil…or prop up dictators with billions of dollars to keep the juice flowing our way.

      We have a lifestyle to preserve dammit.

      Keeps the cruise missile manufacturers happy. There are jobs there! Keeps the VA and the state department busy. And Homeland Defense. More jobs. And it keeps all those unemployed young people off the street.

      And we can pay for it all with…get this…PAPER! Hahahahahaha.

    • david March 25, 2011, 5:48 pm

      It’s too bad all these things seemingly have to be done on a collective (i.e., government) level–“pricing oil at European levels”–by whom? By what method? Taxation? “–but money needs to be going into looking for it–real money (like on weapons research), not a billion here or there”. This would appear to be an allusion to taxpayer money. Why not let the market find solutions? I know, I know–in the present climate of political opinion, it’s impossible to allow the market to work. I heard talk of rationing the other day. Why not let price do the rationing? I know, I know–silly question. Politically impossible. I sure wish we could clear out these political impossibilities that we’ve been conditioned by TPTB to erect. Sigh.