Interest Rates May Be Close to a Major Bottom

Because stocks and commodities sometimes fluctuate for reasons too complex to speculate on let alone predict, we often look to our charts to tell us what diligent guesswork and informed reasoning cannot. At the moment, our attention is riveted on the 10-year Treasury Note, which has been flirting with a major rally target, and by implication, a potentially very important low in lending rates. If so, the implied shift in Treasury paper from bull market to bear is one that we cannot afford to take lightly, since nothing would hasten the country’s descent into economic depression as certainly as the ratcheting up, even slightly, of key lending rates.  Try to imagine the impact of this on, for one, a residential real estate market that has already shed a third of its value since the beginning of the Great Collapse several years ago.  Commercial real estate would be in fatal jeopardy as well, since the accounting tricks that have been used to mask its true condition rival in deviousness even those the Federal government has used to conceal the fact of America’s bankruptcy.

We have been predicting here for years that home values would ultimately decline by 70 percent and that the collapse in vacation properties would be even worse, hitting 90 percent.  However, given the unprecedented weakness of these markets in the face of a failed multi-trillion dollar monetary stimulus and a dead-cat bounce in the stock market that has taken more than two years to play out, one shudders to think about how quickly the final phase of the collapse would unfold were the flimsy support of artificially suppressed interest rates to be removed.

Watching Dollar Closely

We first glimpsed the gathering storm in T-Notes during one of the impromptu webinars that we conduct from time to time during U.S. trading hours.  (Click here if you don’t subscribe but would like free access the next such session.)  The “Hidden Pivot” price target we identified for the June 10-Year Note lay at 123^21, a little less than two percent above the level that day.  The futures have since gotten as high as  123^05 – close enough to put us on high alert for a possible downturn from just below the target. If so, it would be congruent with our bearish outlook for the dollar.  Although some chartists we respect have been predicting a powerful, bullish reversal in the greenback, we see nothing that would augur such a turn, technically speaking. In fact, we’re looking for a washout in the Dollar Index to around 68.36 from a current level of around 75.66.  A strong rally in the dollar would forestall a surge in real interest rates, of course, and although we remain open-minded to the possibility of this, we will wait for the charts to signal it before we get in gear with dollar bulls.  A temporary and relative strengthening might result from the collapse of the euro that would occur if Spain’s financial house of cards crumbles. Although this could send the dollar soaring for a short while, we don’t see any factors that could long sustain such an anomaly as a “strong” dollar.  More likely is that it is bullion that would launch into a powerful and sustained rally. If you are interested in our short- and long-term price targets for gold and silver, try a free trial to Rick’s Picks by clicking here.

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  • Marc Authier May 24, 2011, 7:38 am

    You have to be a consumate cretin to buy bonds. Don’t have to go far away to see what happens when you make a religion of buying bonds. Greece, Ireland, Portugal. And now italian bonds are cracking. Certificates of confiscation. Bonds and bombs. They are in reality arms of mass destruction.

  • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 1:52 am

    John Jay,
    “…will be when foreign countries simply refuse to accept the US Dollar in trade. There are no “Bond Vigilantes” in a Police State, w”

    Just like there will be no bond vigilantes in a DOMESTIC police state, there will be no “refusing to accept” the dollar in the INTERNATIONAL police state, the policeman of which is the USA.

    That’s is what is really behind the Arabian Spring:
    its an agent-provocateur/western instigated distraction of the real simmering cauldron found much further east, in the heart of Arabia.
    Of course, it is not mere coincidence, that Libya was making plans to institute a Gold-Dinar as only method of payment, and looking to trade with those still able to pay (China). Just like many years ago with Iraq.

    The important stuff that dollars are accepted for today, will not go off the dollar unless we allow it (not likely) or have exhausted all our ammo.
    Nukes are not off the table as part of that arsenal either.

  • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 1:39 am

    Dan,
    “It doesn’t matter much if a house costs 1M and you can’t afford it, or if the same house costs 1K and you can’t afford it. Inflation and deflation are twins connected at the figments of our imagination.”

    Carol already made the obvious and correct answer, but you overlook another thing:

    Leaving savings aside (even though not everyone is bereft). it actually does NOT matter.
    You argument only focuses on the
    Inflation = prices up / wages up or
    deflation = prices down/ wages down
    parallel change.
    Without even arguing whether that is or will be true (and one that can be argued, at least with resp. to the relative changes of each to the other), you overlook S/D equation and the median price /median income.

    IF the median income can NOT AFFORD the median price of a house, then that price will not exist.
    It will be a figment of someones dreams:
    There will be no real price discovery, because no one is buying.
    There will be lots of asks, but NO BIDS.
    What kind can’t afford is that?
    Eventually, the prices will come to the affordable mean.

    Because we are talking about EXISTING stock looking for potential buyers, that do not exist at those prices, there is an oversupply.

    This whole mechanism was skewed by the ease of finding a way to meet the ASK, but that is history and not coming back soon.

    It is no different with the higher ed system, esp. law school:
    Once the willingness to load up on crusching debt, or the ability to, dissapears, then the crazy tuition increases everywhere will stop, because spots go unfilled.

    Bottom line:
    alll houses to expensive for everybody can’t be.
    (regional effects aside, see DC, for its own special reason.)
    As to law schools:
    The blogs with lawschoolsucks or lawschoolscam are a good read on another sad part of this fiat world.

  • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 1:23 am

    roger ericson:
    “It’s all fiat. Fiat currency, fiat deficit, fiat debt. So why keep trying to pretend that they’re real? Fiat currency only denominates real actions. It is NOT old-fashioned money, or real goods or services. We should never let the supply of fiat make it difficult to denominate ongoing real transactions.”

    ?????
    Perpetuum mobile?
    You make it sound so simple and uncomplicated.
    If everything being traded for fiat were virtual itself, could work, but real people have real needs.

    • roger erickson May 28, 2011, 9:19 pm

      You’re missing my point?

      Nothing is traded “for” fiat. Fiat only briefly records the transactions when real things are eventually traded. Fiat allows scaling up of ever more distributed & distant transactions. The required adjustment is jettisoning the concept of currency as hard money, and benefiting from it’s scalable use as pure bookkeeping.

      Consequence is that you should hold fiat currency for a briefly as possible, but use it freely when distant/distributed transactions are useful. That is, in fact, very simple. Amazing they thought of it in 1931 onward (all countries went on/off the gold std in the 20th century, because they all made a mistake in thinking it could scale; it didn’t).

  • David R. (Canada) May 24, 2011, 12:59 am

    As a “saver” with zero debt and a small house in a small community (paid for), I look forward to deflation. I’m ready for it!

  • Rich May 23, 2011, 5:23 pm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9y4iXAso4I 1:10
    CF
    CF Industries Holdings Inc
    3.5%
    GPS
    Gap Inc
    2.5%
    SPLS
    Staples Inc
    2.0%
    GS
    Goldman Sachs Group Inc
    1.4%
    NEM
    Newmont Mining Corp
    1.3%
    LTD
    Limited Brands Inc
    1.1%
    AKS
    AK Steel Holding Corp
    1.0%
    ORLY
    O’Reilly Automotive Inc
    1.0%
    BIG
    Big Lots Inc
    0.7%
    MO
    Altria Group Inc
    0.7%

  • Rich May 23, 2011, 4:59 pm

    Aloha All

    What we may be seeing is the beginning of the end of extend and pretend, NUC included.

    With Jerry “Moonbeam” Brown raising taxes, California may lead the USA into the Greater Depression in a reverse of the Depression Dust Bowl Scenario with people escaping CA dust bowls to OK et al, where rural survivalist populations are already up 50%, and municipal interest rates diving to dirt.

    The wild card may be Treasury interest rates going to the sky as Rick suggests, as the invisible hand of the market realizes US default and insolvency is real, and the Fed is afraid to monetize debt anymore, with those on fixed payment foodstamps and fixed payment unemployment, rioting over 50% higher defacto food prices. (Higher prices with smaller portions.)

    This could trigger the counter-intuitive flight out of Treasuries into the Dollar and Equities, part of Martin Armstrong’s thesis of the swing from Public Socialism to Private Enterprise. There is so much more money in Credit Derivatives and Treasuries, too much to escape into Precious Metals and hope to have liquidity left.

    This unexpected event is why we returned from Rapture to Tweet:

    richcash8 Rich Cash
    The hardest trade usually the most profitable: Thus we are using Trailing Buy Stops to accumulate here…

    Aloha Regards*Rich

  • Pete Giovine May 23, 2011, 3:23 pm

    Fantastic discussion, gentlemen. Keep up the good work!
    Is anyone else interested in the “unsurety?” Seems like there is a lot of money on the sidelines. Does it “know” what to do?
    Pete

  • John Jay May 23, 2011, 3:01 pm

    I think the market for US Treasuries is so rigged that the only way things will change will be when foreign countries simply refuse to accept the US Dollar in trade.
    There are no “Bond Vigilantes” in a Police State, which is exactly what we have become. I am certain that the results of each Treasury auction are planned in advance, with the Fed knowing more or less how much they will need to backstop the market. Orchestration and intervention in the bond market will only end when no one accepts the US Dollar in foreign trade. There is nothing inside our own walls to stop what has been going on since we stopped minting silver coins for everyday use back in the 1960’s.
    We have already had slow motion hyperinflation since then, prices have more or less gone up by a factor of 10. In the 60’s gas was $.25 a gallon, a nice house was 20k, a new Chevy Impala was 2k, a skilled job paid $5 an hour. That’s painting the situation with a broad brush, but there you have it.

    • A. Ran Fand May 23, 2011, 4:32 pm

      As we are seeing with the frame up of DSK, the plunge protection team will do whatever it takes to keep The Dollar from being replaced. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24867

    • warren May 23, 2011, 5:49 pm

      I remember prices like the ones you mention into the bottom of the 70’s. At least until Nixon dropped the gold standard. In my humble opinion, it has been a train wreck ever since.

    • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 1:54 am

      A Sarko-frame-up is plenty enough!

  • charles May 23, 2011, 2:06 pm

    Mario,

    Sorry, I thought I remembered you being the toutee. Obviously not! I should pay more attention. It’s Nuveen CA Quality Income Muni Fund.

    • mario cavolo May 23, 2011, 4:12 pm

      …yet, I do clearly remember an article guest post Rick had published by a guy who was pro-CA muni bonds… use the search box, I’m sure you’ll find it….

  • bob May 23, 2011, 1:54 pm

    Rick, the word on the street is “financial repression”. Is this a future topic of discussion?

    • roger erickson May 23, 2011, 3:22 pm

      hear hear! please expose that topic Rick

  • charles May 23, 2011, 1:36 pm

    Mario,
    You once touted NUC as a safe harbour. Has your opinion changed any now with the apparent worsening of CA debt? Sorry if this is a little off topic but it just occured to me in light of the interest rate discussion.

    • mario cavolo May 23, 2011, 1:55 pm

      …apologies Charles I’m not clear on this? what is NUC? CA debt? I googled NUC didn’t help me… doesn’t sound like topic lines I’m known for…Cheers, Mario

  • Dan May 23, 2011, 1:05 pm

    It doesn’t matter much if a house costs 1M and you can’t afford it, or if the same house costs 1K and you can’t afford it. Inflation and deflation are twins connected at the figments of our imagination.

    • Carol May 23, 2011, 2:53 pm

      Dan, agree but also disagree. If one is a saver one is wiped out by inflation whereas if one is a debtor one is rewarded by inflation.

    • roger erickson May 23, 2011, 3:21 pm

      Thanks Carol.

      > If one is a saver one is wiped out by inflation
      > whereas if one is a debtor one is rewarded by inflation.

      That’s exactly why scaling aggregates (economic growth, evolution, reverse-entropy – whatever) all discount prior & current goods/methods and constantly replace them with new inventions.

      Constant, moderated, inflation is always more than paid for by return on future coordination. More people = more stock to coordinate, and return on human coordination trumps all other returns. If we use it, that is.

      Constant deflation, however, equates to regression.

      That’s the simple story of evolution, of all social species, of all human tribes & cultures, and of all present markets.

      What scales, will. What doesn’t, or won’t, regresses.

    • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 1:43 am

      “Constant deflation, however, equates to regression”

      Not true at all.
      Constant deflation in a stable money system is the PRODUCT of increased productivity and efficiency, which allows resources to be utilzed in other fashions.

      If you no longer have to toil ALL DAY to feedyourself, then you have resources left to develop, which is the opposite of regression.

      How is that accomplished?
      By saving.

      I hope you know the apple and ladder example on the desert island.

    • roger erickson May 24, 2011, 4:30 pm

      Chris T., we’re talking past one another.

      If you restrict your perspective to an individual you get one set of values. However individual perspectives don’t scale to social organization, because of the typical fallacy of composition.

      If you take the perspective of an aggregate, then in return for the return-on-coordination, all individuals willingly trade SOME local degrees of freedom for SOME emerging group options.

      Trying to equate the two is whistling past the hermit & his apple tree.

    • Chris T. May 24, 2011, 7:03 pm

      On a purely non-economic level (is there really such a thing when one thinks of economics in the Misesian sense of human action), I am not sure I could argue your comments.

      BUT:
      In economic terms, your comments sound A LOT like Keynesian “Paradox of Savings” argumentation,
      whats good for one is not good for all they argue.
      That is of course BS, and has been refuted many times.
      So, anytime I come across arguments that even have a hint of Keynesian “logic/though” I discount as not valid.

    • roger erickson May 28, 2011, 9:13 pm

      to Chris T.

      Regardless of which dead/white/economist you like to attribute any & all things too, we’re facing scaling tasks.

      In any complex system, the profile of methods that work at one system scale don’t work at some larger scale. That’s inevitable.

      Try to fit that into whatever past ideology you want to cling to, but none will scale continuously. Can we just admit that and move on?

  • mario cavolo May 23, 2011, 3:24 am

    Please be wrong. Rising interest rates in the current state of the financial system are THE single devil that will suck everything that follows into the fires of hell…

    • gary leibowitz May 23, 2011, 4:48 am

      I disagree. Falling rates at this junction means there is no more ammo left to stimulate. It means deflation and that kills both the lender and the borrower.

      The dollar’s strength is logical if deflation takes hold since it has been the safe-haven in the past.

      I stated 7 years ago on 3M’s Yahoo message board that locking in government bonds over 5 percent will be the safest and best bet. Sure got ridicule over that one. I’ll stick to that bet going forward but now 5 percent is unreachable.

      I was expecting one last rally in equities which is sure to coincide with a falling dollar but time is running out. I suspect this week will decide it.

      Political suicide is happening before our eyes with the audacity to explain away why the middle class and poor must be dealt the full brunt of entitlement cuts while the rich corporations and individuals sit on record profits. I suspect common sense will eventually prevail and both spending cuts and tax hikes will be enacted. It will be interesting how this translates to the move in equities and the dollar.

      Just imagine everyone angry over the debt and wanting action at a time when we might be spiraling into a deflation style depression. Timing is everything and this one could have decade long repercussions.

    • Erin May 23, 2011, 6:47 am

      No disrespect intended Mario and this is not aimed at you, The “fires of hell” comment made me think back on the crises…It sounded just like the politicians during the recent crises. The world will come to an end if we don’t save the system and blah, blah, blah…

      If the powers that be would have let the deflation take hold during the 2008 crises and just let the prices plummet for everything and let companies go bankrupt then the real healing would already be underway. I know all the arguments against deflation and it’s complete crap at this point in time in our country.

      Yeh, there will always be winners and losers but life goes on. The majority of people in this country need the big bad deflation. Incomes in this country support none of these prices for housing or anything else!

      Prices of goods and services will find their equilibrium and then they will rise or fall according to demand when the government and anyone else subsidizing the market finally stops meddling in it.

      The longer this stupidity continues the deeper our troubles will get so bring on the “fires of hell” because the alternatives to this complete quackery are much worse!

    • Chris T. May 23, 2011, 9:53 am

      Hear, Hear!

      Finally someone who likes the idea of falling “prices”.
      As if they were a bad thing.
      Bad only for the people that should be tarred-and-feathered.

      Even that holy grail of the post-war (WWII) new America, the house, is not bad falling.

      No one minds when car prices are not rising/falling, but they hate it when that’s the case for houses.

      It’s only because of a stupid and brain-washed notion, that houses are “an asset”. Laughable.
      They are an item of consumption, just like all the stuff used to fill them, and the thing in the garage.

      Only their useful life, and cost-of-acquisition are longer term then their contents. But this difference in degree does not make a difference in kind.
      That is why in tax, this kind of infrastructure is allowed to depreciate.

      Just like any item of consumption, they are used up, and require constant input to keep useable.

      The only “asset” that a house confers is the land it occupies.

      So, if at some point, this realization sinks in (again), then people will cheer a falling housimg market, the ones that can no longer buy any of it, and we keep making more of those every day.
      Who cares about the fools that got taken in?

      Rick’s numbers aren’t even that far off:
      Here in tony NJ (at least going by the property taxes), even AFTER all of the last three years, residential real-estate STILL costs more than 6x annual income or substantially more.
      Purely unsustainable, esp. when compared to the decades long factor operative until about 1980.

      With the ultimate 70% decline Rick mentions, that factor will be about 2.5 (assuming about 25-30% to date). Sure, incomes better not take a major hit (nominally speaking of course), but if the did, then we’d still go to the 2-3x factor level, just the 70% will have been too optimistic.

      So, Erin has it right on that point.

    • mario cavolo May 23, 2011, 12:32 pm

      Hi Gary, hmm I was thinking about it mostly in terms of the issue if interest rates and payments rise on what is now trillions in debt…we’re at the brink now so if interest rates pop up 2-3% from current levels, what are they going to do?…start printing more money just to be able to pay the interest payments on the debt!?

      Cheers, Mario

    • roger erickson May 23, 2011, 3:14 pm

      > I suspect common sense will eventually prevail
      > and both spending cuts and tax hikes will be enacted.

      ?? How, pray tell, did reducing fiat & then taxing fiat become common sense? We need more public initiative (translation, more fiat currency creation & distribution). And we need less taxation.

      Running out of fiat? That’s pretty much like saying “We can’t execute this transaction, because I’ve run out permission to use more numbers in my spreadsheet.”

      It’s all fiat. Fiat currency, fiat deficit, fiat debt. So why keep trying to pretend that they’re real? Fiat currency only denominates real actions. It is NOT old-fashioned money, or real goods or services. We should never let the supply of fiat make it difficult to denominate ongoing real transactions.

      If what’s accepted for common sense becomes fiat, then we really are toast.

  • FranSix May 23, 2011, 12:35 am

    I would say that interest rates are going to plumb lows that nobody thought possible, and that monetary inflation so readily apparent in many markets is set to go into the bond price.

    • Pat May 23, 2011, 3:34 am

      Agree, 10 year to 2%