Can China’s Miracle Keep the West Afloat?

The response to Mario Cavolo’s glowing take on China and the global economy was eye-opening, to say the least. It’s not hard to understand why someone who lives and works in China, as Mario does, might believe that the country’s economic prospects are so spectacular as to all but preclude the possibility of a deflationary depression elsewhere in the world. We’re not so sure ourselves and have a few things to say about it below. But we were nonetheless persuaded by Mario’s argument, and by comments made by others in the Rick’s Picks forum, that China is doing many important things right, economically speaking. Some Westerners don’t come easily to this notion, since it requires one to put aside very troubling concerns about China’s repressive, authoritarian political regime; for it is both unfortunate and undeniable that dissidents do indeed disappear in the middle of the night, never to return; and that “troublemakers” such as the Falun Gong, a Taoist sect, have indeed been tortured and expelled from civil life.

Shanghai's skyline comes as a shock to most first-time visitors

Even so, and seemingly paradoxically, China’s political leaders seem to have the long-term well-being of the Chinese people foremost in mind when it comes to managing the economy. On this point, we found the following comment in the forum, by “Adiehua,” particularly illuminating: “Like most of the correspondents here, I come from a background that prizes democracy and freedom,” he wrote. “However, I consciously try to avoid the trap of believing that it is the only system. The popular belief that China is a somewhat totalitarian state is erroneous. It is authoritarian but the Chinese have had various versions of authoritarianism for 2000 years. To ask them to adopt Ben Franklin’s philosophies in a heartbeat is not practical.

Chinese Solutions

“Nearly everyone I know in China is acutely aware of the various problems that China faces. They are however, adamant that they are Chinese problems for which they will find Chinese solutions. Many of my Chinese acquaintances indicate that export trade continues to be quite strong but significantly more of it is going to other emerging markets in the Middle East, Russia, South Africa, South America and of course, Asia. There is a growing conviction that future export growth will be generated by hi-tech and value added products.

“The Chinese are moving out into the world. They are using their cash to acquire assets everywhere, particularly oil and minerals. They are gaining export markets in developing countries and are becoming major tourists. They acknowledge the somewhat symbiotic relationship that they have with the US and Europe and are sufficiently pragmatic to take actions that support those economies.

“In the final analysis, China will do what it perceives is best for China. If the West derives a benefit, then so be it.”

America’s Suicide

Contrast this with America’s economically suicidal policy of fighting debt deflation with the creation of yet more trillions in new debt.  Clearly, America has no long-term plan or even a goal. Instead, the nation’s economic policies seem geared toward papering over problems rather than resolving them. The result, in nearly each and every instance over the last several years, has been that Government’s misguided efforts have failed miserably.  The costs have yet to be borne by taxpayers, but when the bills start coming due next year, the tax burden that results will kill any remote chance the U.S. economy had of recovering.

In his essay, Mario asserted that America’s fall will be softened by the countervailing pressure of Asian prosperity and by growth elsewhere in the world. He also thinks the super-rich will escape misfortune simply by moving their money out of the U.S. We would argue that this gives the supposed “smart money” more credit than it deserves. Consider, for one, that whenever some urgent change in investor perceptions scares the allegedly smart money into fleeing one supposed safe haven for another, the smart money will be subject to an enormous haircut.  Just asked Warren Buffett, who has been struggling to unwind a $5B position in muni bonds before the music stops.  And besides Buffett, there have been many thousands of super-rich investors who have been decimated because they jumped into private-equity deals that they thought were bargains, only to discover that deflation has barely begun to mark down the assets they’d acquired. (Newspaper publishing companies have become the new Brooklyn Bridge that someone would love to sell you.)  There is no such thing as a buy-and-hold investment anymore, and no asset class is safe from the ravages of capital flight. For that reason, even George Soros can lose a big piece of his net worth if he guesses wrong just once, or if he is just a few hours late exiting a speculative position that has turned lethal.

Speaking of Soros…

Speaking of Soros, he supposedly is in Petrobras up to his eyeballs. But does he hold U.S. Treasurys as well, as many well-heeled investors undoubtedly do? If so, how smart is that? The U.S. is BANKRUPT and has been raising its current, $13 Trillion debt ceiling at the rate of $1 Trillion per year.  When the epiphany of U.S. bankruptcy finally comes, as it one day must, and the Federal Reserve becomes the only buyer of Treasury paper, where will the smart money (i.e., the hedgies) migrate? And how much time will they have to do so?   It is hardly beyond conjecture that  the inevitable collapse of the dollar and Treasury debt will occur in mere hours, making it impossible for any of the rats to escape the ship.

Arguably, the smartest “smart money” is Chinese, as Mario would doubtless agree.  Whereas the Japanese bought Impressionist paintings, Pebble Beach and Rockefeller Center when they were flush with cash, the Chinese have shunned trophy assets, choosing instead to lock up supplies of natural gas, oil and mineral resources all over the world. In stark contrast, a very significant portion of the West’s seed capital remains hopelessly trapped in a derivatives-based Ponzi scheme whose notional value totals many hundreds of trillions of dollars. There is no way this money can find its way into Bolivian tin, Venezuelan oil and Iranian natural gas in the way that China’s money already has. The capital appears destined to be deflated to the vanishing point in settlement of mostly public debts far too large to pay.

We’ll give the last word to forum regular Martin Snell, who lived in Taiwan in the late 1980s, when the stock market there collapsed.  “I thought for sure there would be a depression . Nope. It was a bit tough for a bit but the resiliency propped up by a strong underlying growth curve held the place together.”  But America?  “To me [the country] is starting to look like what has happened to Britain over time: a slow, non-stop decline, while they cling to long-obsolete feelings of greatness. Yes, there are vestiges of the glorious past, but visit any town in the northern half of the place and heaven help you — a disaster.”

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  • Larry August 8, 2010, 6:32 pm

    I would like also to agree with anyone that mentioned the male desire for a young female, especially when there is a shortage… as in China of the one child policy. The government of China, probably knew that on a one child policy, nearly all families would want a male for obvious reasons. But when those males reach 18+ years of age, they will have to compete with a limited supply of young females. All cultures understand that the female loves money foremost(the security of her future children). This is why the country of China is growing so fast… males competing for the smaller total young Chinese female population to mate with.

  • zippythepinhead August 3, 2010, 11:11 pm

    If we are to assume that China is going to keep the party going where are the guests? The one child act has kept a lid on the population for 50 yrs now. The male to female ratio is 120/100, how do you turn that around with a population of 1.3 billion? Some 40 million men unable to find wives. Boys outnumber girls in the 0-15 category by over 19 million today. The traditional thinking is best described in the ancient “Book of Songs” (1000-700 B.C.):

    “When a son is born,
    Let him sleep on the bed,
    Clothe him with fine clothes,
    And give him jade to play…
    When a daughter is born,
    Let her sleep on the ground,
    Wrap her in common wrappings,
    And give broken tiles to play…”

    I would like to see Mario comment on this and what of the underground economy that states the Chinese wealth factor is greatly understated by as much as 60%. Great man on the street reporting.

  • ebear August 3, 2010, 4:50 am

    “Shanghai’s skyline comes as a shock to most first-time visitors.”

    Is that Shanghai? I thought it was Dubai .

    ebear

  • ebear August 3, 2010, 4:32 am

    “There are undeveloped petroleum reserves and rare earths in North America.
    What we need is the will to develop them.” –RA

    If I were charged with supplying the US military with enough oil to carry out its mission (whatever that might be) I’d make damn sure I didn’t use up every last drop I had. If Greens and NIMBYs block domestic development, so much the better. They are just doing my job for me.
    ebear

  • Edward August 3, 2010, 3:45 am

    Very interesting posts, folks, especially since not one of you raised the issue that is, to my mind, the most pressing with respect to the prospective success of China’s ongoing capitalist experiment, namely environmental degradation. In truth this is, literally, a global problem, see, for example, the latest catastrophe in the GOM, but, since China seems to be the focus of this particular discussion, I’d simply like to offer that the quality of the air, water, and soil in China is, in the aggregate, appalling. And nothing less than that nation’s seemingly heedless economic expansion is directly responsible for the creation of conditions that are, quite frankly, inhospitable for life.

  • howg August 3, 2010, 2:25 am

    Interesting that most comments here on the future of China, (up or down), and Mario’s original piece, do not mention the nature of China’s banking system.

    Is it state / publicly owned, or are the Chinese paying for the rights to their own currency as well (as us)?

    How can you analyse and project the future of any country w/o knowing this most important of all economic factors? (continuously ignored by so many of the experts commenting on this site… bizarre??)

    Rick, I’m sure the mathematical realities of a “credit” based monetary system are a lot simpler than your hidden pivot method!!

    These traditional economic models are obsolete and miss the big picture entirely – which is, indeed, the only reason why they were invented in the first place. There is scant difference between China and the West (& Japan & Aus. et al), politically, as we speak.

    One big difference, in everyday life, is that we are no longer micro-corrupt, (more or less). But we are entirely macro-corrupt. Our system IS corruption by definition; by law.

    So while the average Asian knows very well that corruption can get him anywhere and buy anything, the average Westerner is absolutely clueless that he’s being milked dry systemically. And unlike the average Asian, he cannot buy his way out of trouble quite so easily, (cheaply).

    Sorry to break the news to the believers out there, but we do have, and have had “authoritarian” governments for quite some time now. It’s just our style is somewhat different, adapted to our cultural realities.

    Yes, the nature of tyranny is to fail over time.
    But that could take another few hundred years… who knows? (I sure hope not!)

    Also, instead of assuming that American planners have just been ridiculously idiotic these last 40 (?) years or so, (& they well be idiots… I really don’t know), perhaps it would be interesting to speculate as to what they have up their sleeves for the future of China if they’re not idiots.
    After all, both China and the US knew that China would end up owning a lot of US debt. Surely, none of this can come as a surprise to either party.

    Rich Said:
    Anglo American Axis…

    See: Revisiting American History – Financial Empire
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l37RhdFGVsM

  • ricecake August 2, 2010, 6:11 pm

    p.s. you guys have to know that almost all the available great natural resources and lands were divided by the old Imperialists colonialist like the Great Britain and other Europeans, as well as the Americans. Whatever left on the glob are in places like African hell holes or other places where very hard to get like the deep oceans. China will have a hell of time to get and keep it. It’s disadvantage of the late comers. Beside, China have to compete with the Indians who will be out number China in population soon.

    I think the West and the Americans are intend to get China and India killing one another in the not far future because they are coming too fast, too pushy too strong and have way too many people in such over populated world. “The future is either them or us. ” The New World Order and the New World Battle Field is emerging. Things are starting in the master’s plan. Wait and see.

    • Rich August 2, 2010, 8:28 pm

      Anglo American Axis…

  • ricecake August 2, 2010, 6:00 pm

    “Whereas the Japanese bought Impressionist paintings, Pebble Beach and Rockefeller Center when they were flush with cash, the Chinese have shunned trophy assets, choosing instead to lock up supplies of natural gas, oil and mineral resources all over the world. ”

    Only partially right. Japanese were the first to buy lots lots of natural resources and lands besides cultural treasuries. Japan are the owners of the Australian and Brazilian large iron Ores & minerals resources and agricultural lands. China are now learning from the Japanese. Japan do not care much about the iron ore price raising because they are the largely benefited from the price raising.

    On the other hand, China corps have been losing big time on their international buying. Either they have to pay very high price, (whatever they want to buy, prices immediately jack up many folds) or they get rejected time after time. Japan had started early so they did good on these areas.

  • Sippquixote August 2, 2010, 5:50 pm

    Everyone is ignoring the chinese elephant in the centre of the room.
    The Chinese have used their large reserves of foreign currency to tie up future supplies of raw materials, especially oil.
    When the West recovers from this depression and wishes to increase imports of raw materials for their manufacturing industry they will discover that there is no availability, other than from China !
    This has already happened with rare earths, and in the next few years will happen with many other raw materials. The West will be unable to rebuild their manufacturing base even when chinese goods get far more expensive.
    Goodbye to the manufacturing capabilities of the West.
    Forever!

    • Rich August 2, 2010, 7:57 pm

      Forever is a long time.
      There are undeveloped petroleum reserves and rare earths in North America.
      What we need is the will to develop them.
      Twenty years of depression and deflation still denied by media like The Economist and RBS might manage ythat:
      http://www.cnbc.com/id/38515257

    • Rich August 2, 2010, 8:35 pm

      RBC, not RBS, analyst formerly employed by the Fed…

  • DanielK August 2, 2010, 5:26 pm

    I have the same line of thought as Rick. Our financial system is a smoldering pile. The dominoes are falling. All of the many disasters of late (financial and natural) do not portend better times. I cannot see how the picture improves nor has “improved” 1 iota. Throw in a rogue government and global geopolitical instability and you have a path resembling a Middle-Eastern road littered with IED’s. Call it what you want, but doom and gloom most appropriately fits the bill in my opinion and there is no shame in facing reality.
    Many people I have talked to act as if the U.S. has simply fallen, skinned its knees, and will get back in the game. Band-Aids will not fix this, but that is all that seems to be in our first aid kit (maybe some stimulus medication to quantitatively ease our pain). At least the green shoots garbage isn’t being pumped incessantly anymore. The only indicators anyone I know points to are stocks – how’s that flash crash working for them?There is plenty of room for it to get worse, much worse, and it will in my opinion. A real road to recovery will be long and painful, but facing denial is a crucial first step in nearly any successful program.
    I have no practical knowledge of Chinese affairs or the strength of their economy, all I do know is that we are evidently the china’s biggest “investment” and my guess is that taking a $2.5 Trillion charge-off (for starters) will be a tough and bitter pill to swallow, no matter how much their government looks out for the people. At least they are proponents of precious metals and encourage their populace to diversify with them.
    Our Secretary of the Treasury got laughed at by Chinese students after saying that U.S. assets are safe. I would have loved to hear the media spin that one!

  • Rich August 2, 2010, 5:11 pm

    Made money on Big4 long CZM with trailing stops and so far held back commenting for fear of raining on anyone’s parade. How about a reality check re China?
    Chinese family friends survived Mao by literally eating dirt, hiding, and swimming to freedom in Hong Kong, coming to America, washing dishes, saving, then starting successful cash businesses. They will absolutely not invest in China, telling me it is too corrupt and levered. People had their assets and capital stolen, went to petty tyrants for help, and were jailed without due process until they forfeited their property for their freedom. While some may argue that is the story of Martin Armstrong in America, he may still be the exception rather than the rule.
    As Rick alluded, the Japanese miracle came to a surprise stop in 1989, to become two lost decades so far.
    It may not be so much that they bought American trophy properties as the inevitable effect of too much debt. Because of tax laws, they borrowed out their equity rather than sell. Not much different around the world.
    Despite being flush from foreign capital inflow, China is no stranger to debt or debt defaults, with many failed State bank loans for corrupt or uneconomic products and projects. How many projects literally collapsed because of substandard materials used to skim off funds?
    Chinese Big4 banks were insolvent with less than 8% capital, despite repeat official pronouncements of up to 11% GDP growth and progress that somehow did not translate to those left in the country, the poor silent majority. China was fourth after Argentina, Mexico and Venezuela in capital flight from high-ranking officials and businessmen fabricating good news while fleeing with their families and stolen funds. Foreign joint ventures like AOL opened with fabulous PR hoopla and collapsed, drained of funds when there was no business, not a single account opened, sometimes with intellectual property and capital stolen without legal recourse.
    The result of authoritarian harmony is the habit of reporting only the good news and not the bad, practicing fraud, and deceiving superiors while deluding subordinates, the persistent ailment of many bureaucrats in party organizations and government departments.
    How many Chinese food, medical or toy exports were tainted? What about Chinese Political Prisoners executed for their body parts? If that is not enough to expose the latest Big Lie, then learn about the latest Chinese Gutter Oil food scam:
    http://news.scotsman.com/world/China-finally-flags-up-risks.6430120.jp
    There is a reason so many Chinese have hepatitis.
    While China touts their Green Revolution, the fact is China remains one of the most polluted and underfed nations in the world, many frustrated men without women because of Mao population control aborting infanticide of girl babies.
    You can build empty Potemkin Village Olympics or Skyscrapers in two hundred cities with over a million population, but eventually the money mirage truth will out.
    Since Britain turned prosperous 10% flat tax Hong Kong over to the Chinese with the British Common Law system protecting freedom and property, mainland Chinese flocked there while manufacturing fled.
    HK became a service economy like the USA, with a higher Gini poverty Coefficient than Central and Latin America.
    EWH Hong Kong iShares peaked in 2007 along with the US market, and since fell -61% along with the US Markets, higher in real terms, perhaps -86%.
    There is no free lunch or perpetual motion machine.
    Chinese money came from outside China in a rave.
    It will go back home in a faint.
    All that glitters is not gold.
    China may be just the latest South Sea Scheme or Mississippi Bubble waiting fro the madness of crowds to come back to their senses one by one, Jimmy Rogers notwithstanding…

    • Benjamin August 2, 2010, 6:16 pm

      “How many Chinese food, medical or toy exports were tainted?”

      Don’t know about the first two, but the toys were incredibly exaggerated threats, the most recent in my memory being the cadmium jewelry.

      Boy oh boy. Only in a land where clothing manufacturers can be sued for a threat being merely conceived (draw-strings on hoodies being a “strangulation hazard”) can cadmium jewelry and lead painted toys be a threat. We Westerners have turned into chemophobic wusses. At the same time, it’s so ironic…

      If we weren’t so afraid of a little pollution, China would be cleaner and we wouldn’t be complaining about Chinese toys or American toys. Fact is, that jewelry was no threat, unless a kid swallowed it and let it disolve in their tummy, or inhaled it into their lungs and had it disolve there as well. It was more a threat to the people working with it than it ever was to the kiddies. But people brow-beated Walmart for selling them, so they took it all off the shelf and recalled what people had bought and BAM… Now somewhere out there is a peice of land that truly does present a hazard. Lots of cadmium sitting in one place, rather than scattered over millions of households in small, noningestible peices, presents a real environmental problem which, of course, requires money to manage that we don’t have.

      That said, I agree with many of your other points. Listening to the good about China is a lot like Chris Rock talking about the good side of crack…

      http://www.africanamericanquotes.org/chris-rock.html

      “Do you know what the good side of crack is? If you’re up at the right hour, you can get a VCR for $1.50! You can furnish your whole house for $10.95!”

    • mario cavolo August 3, 2010, 4:44 am

      Surprised to find your deeply negative take on China Rich. Why reach back to dark years past? My mother in law was sent to the countryside, had a rough life. I understand. That’s all past here my friend. America became America because we slaughtered the Indians, too.

      Yes some folks were recycling used restaurant cooking oil…dumb and greedy.
      Yes there are failed local real estate projects amongst the 15 Trillion of new real estate wealth that has been created….so?
      Yes there is plenty of corruption….which country not?
      Yes business can be ruthless here…this is a special point?
      Yes private companies have done bad things like use melamine in milk products, and factories set up “clean room” standards and don’t follow them because the local owner and managers don’t care…even more dumb and greedy….more companies in China tend to try to get away with stuff than in the West…enforcement of standards was far more lax and continues to improve dramatically.

      Such factory owners when caught, are often executed for threatening the public good, for threatening to ruin people’s lives. Does that make sense to you?
      Yes, prisoners, people who hurt other people are treated quite badly, with less rights and greater disdain, and out the back door to be executed more often…and I would righteously kill the man who raped my child but first I would cause him untold pain and I would have no regret at the pearly gates for having done so.

      I’ve watched this scene many times: When a local street thief is caught in China, the local men surround him, taunt him, slap him around, treat him like the dog he is; its crude, its raw, its real, they feel its gratifying to give him what he deserves as he dared threaten their lives, their families….a few minutes later the police show up, they watch for awhile, I think just to make sure no one hits him too hard. Then they take him to jail. Typically he’ll spend a month to a year hard labor in jail and be released.

      Would you like it or not if you saw a local drug gang, who causes an entire neighbourhood to be ruined, being treated that way in America? Would you cheer? So what’s better in this case, the American way or the Chinese way? Every country and situation has its good and bad as we might judge it.

      Cheers, Mario

  • Jack August 2, 2010, 4:27 pm

    China is a lot more than Shanghai. Is Mario bedazzled by the glitter and bright lights? Is he blinded by his position there, being winded and dined by the elite? It might seem good where he lives, but there are still hundreds of millions of Chinese that do not have any Yuan stashed under the mattress.

  • Chris T. August 2, 2010, 3:39 pm

    Rick, you write:

    “The capital appears destined to be deflated to the vanishing point in settlement of mostly public debts far too large to pay.”

    This reminds me of a point made not too long ago by Antal Fekete, which is that in a monetary system consisting solely of irredemable debt, there is no extinguishing of any debt, only transferrence, which eventually transforms it all into public debt, which then will end as you point out.
    (for those that do not understand what irredemable money is = FRN’s. They are notes, which used to be redeemable into an unencumbered asset (thus extinguished), but no longer for anyone since 1971, thus irredemable)

    • Benjamin August 2, 2010, 4:53 pm

      Agreed, Chris. It’s like an apple where the bites take bigger and bigger chunks as the mouth moves about the core.

      Only trouble is, imo, is that the Friedmanite model has people fooled still. They would argue that relativity of depth between various public debts should make the whole “competitiveness” factor kick in and work. Of course, that only kills the goose that was to lay the golden egg.

  • Don August 2, 2010, 3:29 pm

    Nat agree completely, Mario is doing good work and has an upbeat view which is good, though a bit naive. If you think the rich in Asia, Europe or elsewhere are going to swoon in and buy up US debt. I think this view is a bit over the top.
    The Chinese IMO are more focused on carving out a niche for their family to have a better life of ‘things’ than what their gov’t does~doesn’t do. They have had a few Empires rise and fall in the past 5000 years, while we on the other hand are more interested in what our gov’t does~doesn’t do and yet we do nothing about it. We still have the illusion our gov’t will take care of us; they don’t have that view.
    Two very different views by two very different cultures, perhaps as it should be.
    Not being in my 50’s or younger any longer I would be right in the middle of the ‘miracle’ century in Asia. My good friend Mario is right where I would want to be.
    So what is to be done today is perhaps do a little market viewing with others and keeping my 2 teenage daughters on message that while Mandarin is your second language today, it may become your first within two decades or less.
    Someone is going to need to speak to your bosses.

    • mario cavolo August 2, 2010, 4:11 pm

      Thank you kindly for your wisdom Nat and Don. Just a moment to remind that the article puts forth that a more gradual quietly miserable inflation and deflation of currency purchasing power is how the excess debt problem will unravel, rather than a cataclysmic type of financial disaster event. Per below:

      “continued price inflation and decline of currency purchasing power; the only exception being American real estate and wages.”

      “..crude oil and gold for example. Up, up, up they will go. The cost of energy and water supply: heading up. But not U.S. middle class wages and real estate. Those are two slices of the pie not likely to budge anytime soon. But that’s only two slices of a very large and complex pie.”

      “The rest of the world starting with the struggling middle class on down will feel poorer and poorer over the coming years, a daily reality much easier to deal with if you live in China/Asia than if you live in America or Europe.”

      Its actually not a rosy picture painted, but far less severe than a “day of reckoning” type scenario. Certainly none of us wants to wake up to that newscast.

    • Benjamin August 2, 2010, 4:47 pm

      “Its actually not a rosy picture painted, but far less severe than a “day of reckoning” type scenario. Certainly none of us wants to wake up to that newscast.”

      It’s not actually all that scary, especially when one considers how easy the solution really is.

      Ah, but humans… A lot of people would say “sheeple”, but I think of humans more as monkeys than anything else. Monkeys love opportunities that come about through excessive cheating and other “cleverness”. And where the individual monkey lacks such the imagination and audcaity (traits not to be envied, I asure you), the other monkeys fall in line behind them.

      And the head monkeys have for so long promoted the idea that Great Terribleness would result in the wake of the State being shackled into servitude, rather than authorative leadership. Oh, won’t someone please think of the anarchy and other Hells. And while history shows this to be the case, it only happens because people believe it should. That it has is proof that the head monkeys have been quite effective in perpetuating their myths.

      But stability is not that hard. All we need is gold, and we know where it is and how they got it. We know that so long as they hold the lion’s share, they won’t be the ones to save the day by using it as money. It will have to be taken. And since there’s hundreds of millions of us for every one of them, there is no cause for concern, such as bloody civil wars and riots and the like. It would be one of the most bloodless and prosperous and lasting revolutions ever to take place in human history.

      We’ve nothing to fear and everything to regain, and more to gain thereafter. Vs this last-globs-of-toothpaste model, there is no contest at all.

  • Nat Both August 2, 2010, 2:22 pm

    As a 75 year old and a 50 odd year participant in the markets, I don’t think that Mario realizes the degree of destruction that our MisManagers have wrought. In the very near future, all of the Harvard Biz and Wharton Keynesians are going to have a big revelation. 2+2=4!

  • mario cavolo August 2, 2010, 1:49 pm

    No, China’s miracle alone cannot keep the west afloat.

    In the recent article which I appreciate again Rick has published, I put forth the point that the combined total of the rich and almost rich in the United States and Europe plus the rich and newly rising rich in China are a total global combined sector of greater strength and power than most give credit, and which could keep the global ship from a complete “Titanic” event. While, make no mistake there are other global sectors in genuine decline, primarily the American (and European) middle and middle/lower class. In the immediately previous decades, they had opportunities available to them to improve their lot in life and indeed, they rose up. In today’s new reality, they simply have far few such opportunities, while the tide has turned in the economic favor of China, much as it did America 50 years ago.

    Thus, the doomsday scenario is reduced to the possibility of a specific political action/set of actions decided at the global government level, known in advance by those decision-makers, that their decision will be a severe currency revaluation or result in one, in which case, yes, there it is in our faces.

    So whilst waiting for that day of sudden and swift transformation as several have suggested here, all is fairly well in the current balance of global affairs, isn’t it? In this particular decade on planet earth, 100,000,000 million people in particular have happily risen, while another 100,000,000 people have lives in unfortunate decline, Whether we happen to like which country those people are citizens of is not the point, is it? A “doomsday” means someone somewhere is going to finally, as I remember someone on this forum saying, “hit the reset button” as the unavoidable way of dealing with the excess debt issue. Could be.

    Until then, let’s clearly and truly know the current reality we live in from macro to micro, and respond accordingly in our circumstances as best we can.

    Lastly, I must say to everyone smart enough to be a follower here at Rick’s site; if you want a personal Master Degree, a fabulous, and helpful education on the state of the markets and global affairs, just thoroughly read the article and forum comment archives of this site, separate the obvious biased rants from the oodles of fabulous, intelligent, thoughtful writing found here. Its a helluva thing. Think, for example, just by reading the past 3 days of articles and comments, how much more you understand about the culture and impact of China than before, whether that may be a big factor in your life or not.

    Cheers,

    Mario Cavolo

  • Benjamin August 2, 2010, 1:47 pm

    “It is authoritarian but the Chinese have had various versions of authoritarianism for 2000 years. To ask them to adopt Ben Franklin’s philosophies in a heartbeat is not practical.”

    The same can be said for humanity in general. China is not an isolated pocket unto itself.

    It’s the nature for authoritarianism to fail. That’s why history is darker than it is brighter and why “doom and gloomers” are labeled as such, even though we’re just seeing the same old, same old history at work. Now, granted, genuine libtery is not perfect. But with it, at least, we wouldn’t be limited to the plans and desires of the relatively few. As for the practicality of it, of course it is not practicle. It’s always going to be an inconvenience to those who would be bumped out of the way should such a thing ever take root.

    As for the Great Miracle, it is no more a miracle than the modern U.S.A. is or was. At one time, people owned their home and lands, had savings… we were not the richest country in the world, nor even noted for being the smartest nor having the largest, most advanced military… But my, how quickly it all went away as lots of flashy, impressive things sprung up all around. Blight happens.

    And since China is already big and flashy, I figure it’s the beginning of the end for them, not the pre-dawn of the new day. How many and how long the chapters will in between is open to question, but I suspect it won’t be all that long. The world was a different, truly richer place when the U.S. took center stage. With so much jutting up face down in the dumps (like a long loaf of bread sticking out of the garbage can, someone will come along and say it’s not ENTIRELY trash), I just can’t see China being the miracle. Now, having a lot of faith put into it… That’s a different matter!

    “Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.” Benjamin Franklin

    On a final note, there are those who say we “doomers” are wishing for some catastrophic collapse. But we don’t have to wish for it, as it’s well enough capable of putting it’s own neck on the block before the axe falls too far to disallow it’s beheading. What I do wish for is that we (humans in general) actually learn something. Experience runs an expensive school, but when fools do not learn, it’s worse than it all needs to be.

    • Robert August 2, 2010, 7:59 pm

      “It’s the nature for authoritarianism to fail. That’s why history is darker than it is brighter and why “doom and gloomers” are labeled as such, even though we’re just seeing the same old, same old history at work. ”

      Great point Benjamin. Even the Renaissance was a period of time whereby the “New Oligarchs” began their steady rise to power in a socially liberal Europe. Even the good times are typically seen by history simply as the foundational stage of the next depressionary period (intended in a socialogical sense, as opposed to an economic one)

      So long as there are people who crave power over others, and so long as there are people willing to grant them that power, history will continue teaching us these valuable lessons over and over again…

      “As for the Great Miracle, it is no more a miracle than the modern U.S.A. is or was. At one time, people owned their home and lands, had savings… we were not the richest country in the world, nor even noted for being the smartest nor having the largest, most advanced military… ”

      Exactly. At one time, all the US offered the world was a policy- an honest chance to own your own property, and to be master of your own productivity. Combined with time, these became the essence of true capital. Gold and Silver money were not regarded as capital- capital was the effort (time, labor) required to bring them out of the ground and convert them into coins.

      Value-less money that disguises true capital does not build everlasting prosperity. This final lesson will be a very painful one for the people of Earth, since the Oligarch’s have effectively subjugated the entire educational system to buy into their corrupt falsehoods as fact.

    • Benjamin August 3, 2010, 3:13 am

      “Gold and Silver money were not regarded as capital- capital was the effort (time, labor) required to bring them out of the ground and convert them into coins. ”

      Yes, gold and silver were (or were intended to act as) protectors of capital, something that limited government spending and power so that it could be retained. I didn’t grasp that point until farily recently.

      That said, the way sound economics works, they would ciriculate as money just fine. In fact, they should because money, I’ve read in some places, is a public good. The way I imagine it all working, anyone at any time can take money out of circulation and lend it to government, just any bonholder should be able to cancel their bond should they feel there isn’t enough in circulation, and get back in full what was loaned.

      These were all points I went into some detail with in a RP article I wrote a few weeks ago. Basically, it involves lending, with the Treasury issuing discounting paper for every weight of each metal loaned to it. The result would be limited price inflation from govt spending, and no taxes to collect to meet the obligation of returning loaned coin in full. The mild price inflation would be borne by all, regardless if they loaned to government or not. The Treasury would only hold the coin, and spend the discounting notes instead, and not have to bother with taxes.

      It’s a wonderfully simple and beautiful system. I hope we all live to see it happen!

  • Don August 2, 2010, 7:42 am

    The have’s and the have not’s. The story of China and most planetary colonies. An engineering grad of 5 years averaging 4-450 usd a month buys a 60 sqm condo for 175k. Go figure. Four to six people living in 600 sq ft may be comfortable for some.
    The people living in the country side are comfortable on the same scale as majority of MX, mostly older and young children are recipients of monies being sent by workers from the cities to their home country (country side). I guess that could be considered comfortable.
    My view the Chinese people are very frugal and take a long view on most things and not the ‘fast food mentality’ as my wife prefers to have it labeled.

    Agree China is going to do what is in China’s best interest for their plan, are in 13th plan now. Who is buying the resource investments? China govt or their people? And is harmony of their society the highest priority; of course it’s how they retain power. Isn’t this why ying and yang inside the beltway lie awake at night becoming more paranoid by the day. America is losing it and is still touted as the ‘richest nation’ if we had to balance our check book, the check would not clear. We just have incompetent management.
    My sister in law is a prosperous business woman in Beijing (several RE leases, restaruant(s) Ice Skating DoJo in Bangkok?) and believes China is making much progress and at the same time has many problems they don’t know how to fix. ie. the have’s too much cash with little avenue to invest other than real estate, pushes price up, gov’t tries to push the price down, etc.

    She likes reading Mario’s views on China from time to time and thinks perhaps he is being a bit over the top. But then again what could she know having only lived in Beijing for forty-three years.

    Agree wholeheartedly with Rick on the hoho; hyperinflation, it will be a currency event IMO and it will be swift, very swift. If you can imagine being long and your contract goes limit down for two or three days blowing through your stops. Might try it sometime just so the feeling won’t be new. My warm up was with soybeans two or three years back.
    Before I discovered Rick’s HP’s.
    You can always get out on ‘synthetic’ price, beep beep.
    Happy trading to all,
    Don

    • mario cavolo August 2, 2010, 10:36 am

      Don! Great to see you here again. Choosing to take your sister in law’s impressions as a compliment forces my acknowledgement to being a bit over the top. In my position, I consciously take the approach that such published articles certainly do need to deliver a cohesive and intelligent approach, but with a bit of jolt too, to stir the pot and stimulate views.

      Cheers, Mario

  • mario cavolo August 2, 2010, 4:07 am

    Harmonious Society Is China’s Top Priority and Value

    Tom Doctoroff, CEO Greater China for J Walter Thompson ad industry firm, just gave his annual presentation at an AmCham event here in Shanghai on “Marketing to China’s Seniors”.

    To the point, he reminded the audience that the Chinese government and society overriding value and priority is to have a “harmonious society”, for individuals to live and contribute well within their harmonious society. That is being well achieved.

    Secondly, China always has and follows a series of “5 year plans”. They define and execute their plans. They are amazingly practical and execute fast, as evident.

    And now the paradox, the “bad side” Rick points out. They will not allow any individual threat to that “harmonious society”. Your rights to do and say what you wish are lower than the rights and needs of the society within which you live. Simple. Make no mistake, daily life here is perfectly normal and better than ever, but you must tow the line and do not have the freedom to say and do as you wish politically.

    I will not write and post a piece in my blog which criticizes the Chinese government, or at public event venues such as AmCham events or when I am asked to give a keynote at a conference. I, and others, would never publicly say anything more than “yes it is known that this issue has been raised…..and we are concerned about….”, if asked. We would never publicly criticize our hosts or their plans. We do not have that particular freedom here. Like Singapore, don’t throw your chewing gum on the ground; they mean it and that’s the way it is.

    Cheers, Mario

  • PhotoRadarScam August 2, 2010, 2:16 am

    It’s interesting that you pose what seems to be contradictory statements. When the “smart money” flees US debt, i.e., dollars, there will be a gross over-supply of dollars in the market. What will this gross over-supply of dollars do to the price of everything? It will drive the price up, because no one is going to want to trade anything for fiat currency, so if they are willing to take USD, they will want more of them than they used to. This will be inflation, not deflation.

    The point is right on the mark that any collapse will come in mere hours. I think a LOT of people seem to think that they’ll be able to predict or foresee the collapse coming and that they’ll be able to move their investments at the last moment, but they will not be able to. There was no warning when Venezuela devalued its currency 40% overnight recently, and there will be no warning the next time a government takes that step or investors just suddenly bolt from USD investments.

    Another point well-described here is that China will do what’s in China’s best interest. If only the US would start to do the same. China seems to have some very practical goals, and plans to achieve them. The US has impractical goals with no plans on how to achieve them other than throwing money at it. We want to use less foreign energy, so we shut down domestic drilling programs? We want to move to renewable energy resources and stop using fossil fuels, which is admirable, but we have no plan to get there, and we don’t seem to realize that this is something that will take decades to achieve and that we must have plans to keep using fossil fuels until the transition can mature itself. What other plans does the US have?

    &&&&&&

    There’s no contradiction here, PRS, since I expect a ruinous deflation to precede hyperinflation. Inflationists have been mighty quiet for a while — and not for no good reason, since deflation is nearly everywhere and far more powerful than what I have called “grocery-store” inflation. The crux of the (hyper)inflation/deflation “debate” should be whether mortgage debtors will be bailed out. I remain convinced they will not, and have not chnaged my mind in the 15 or so years I’ve been writing about deflation. RA

  • Martin Snell August 2, 2010, 2:13 am

    An interesting piece as per usual. I would though suggest that if you can find a bit of free time it would be very interesting for you to see China first hand. There is nothing like seeing things with your own eyes.

    A couple of thoughts:
    1. The Chinese as a people abhor “luan” (roughly translated as “chaos” in English). There have been more than a few times in Chinese history where things got out of control. The collective memory says “better almost anything than that”. So you do have Chinese far more willing to put up with an authoritarian regime. Better to have a dictatorship and more food on the table, than chaos and not knowing what will happen next.

    2. I’m not surprised the US does not have a plan. It is far more difficult to lead than it is to play catch-up (think Microsoft). The US lost its main competitor in the USSR, and since has drifted. Somehow China has not come to be seen as a major “threat” (it’s tough to call the one lending you money the threat). So China has America in its sights and the US is blindly enjoying the benefits of being number 1.

    3. I read many times that the Chinese were great businessmen. I have though come to the conclusion that some Chinese are great businessmen, and many are terrible. The problem is that with so many of them (everyone these days seems to want to run their own company) there are bound to be quite a few good ones. It is this entrepreneurial zeal that is helping China a lot now (fewer people there calling for the government to “create” jobs) as with a rapidly developing economy there are plenty of new niches to be filled. This then helps build its own momentum.

    The question of timing is as always fascinating, and one we will probably all get wrong.