That Rumbling Sound Is the Dollar Giving Way

(We’re on a roll here, so I am letting this commentary run for a second consecutive day. My good friend Doug, a bear’s bear and no slouch when it comes to making pellucid sense of the Big Picture, characterized my thoughts on hyperinflation as “nutty,” but perhaps he has exaggerated. Readers?  RA)   

For nearly twenty years, we haven’t flinched from our prediction that the massive debt build-up of the last generation would precipitate out as a deflationary bust.  That is what we still expect, although we now believe there is likely to be a hyperinflationary phase at some point as the financial system implodes. But the bottom line is that no matter how things play out, America’s standard of living will fall more steeply than at any other time since the Great Depression. As for the deflation-vs.-hyperinflation “debate,” it is useful only to the extent it helps predict how mortgage debtors will fare as this economic cataclysm plays out. We seriously doubt they will be “saved” by the kind of hyperinflation that would put hundred-thousand-dollar bills in Joe Homeowner’s wallet. Imagine how mortgage lenders would react if Joe could peel off three or four of those bills and say, “Okay, pal, we’re square.”  This scenario will seem particularly unlikely to those who believe that these economic hard times have been engineered by Masters of the Universe intent on stealing our property.  Trust us on this:  If there’s a hyperinflation, it is the rentiers who will get screwed most ruinously, not the little guys.

Pound for pound, this pile of trash is worth more intrinsically than all of the tens, twenties and hundreds in your wallet

Even so, that doesn’t rule out the prospect of a fleeting, hyperinflationary spike on the way down, since widespread notions concerning the dollar’s true value could change precipitously overnight. We mention this because notions are already beginning to change in ways that leave the dollar increasingly vulnerable to a global run. The exploding caldera of fear that will eventually bring this about bubbled to the surface yesterday when the Fed confirmed yet again that it is absolutely clueless about how to get the economy moving.  The central bankers’ muddled talk of still more “quantitative easing” (QE2) is about as reassuring as the promise of more sanctions against Iran.  Paul Krugman may be the last person in America who still believes that additional heaps of “stimulus” will do the trick. On Wall Street, however, the belief is clearly ascendant that QE2 will only wreck the dollar without providing any lift to the economy. That could explain why stocks fell yesterday while gold and silver soared. Not that the yahoos on Wall Street exhibited perfect knowledge. To the contrary, the broad averages shot up initially, driven by headless-chicken panic, and T-bonds finished the day with anomalously large gains despite the louche tittering about further easing.

Schiff’s Scenario

Peter Schiff has provided the most plausible scenario for a hyperinflation. He foresees a day when confidence in the dollar collapses, as it eventually must, forcing the Fed to become the sole buyer of Treasury debt.  When municipal and corporate bond traders realize on that same day that there is no official support for their markets, private debt will go into a death spiral, forcing the Fed to monetize all bonds. Under the circumstances, the Fed would not become merely domestic debt’s buyer of last resort, but the only buyer. Voila! Hyperinflation.

It should be noted that it is not some certain quantity of money injected into the banking system that will cause hyperinflation; rather, it will be the repudiation of all dollars already in circulation. Holders of physical dollars will panic to exchange them for anything tangible, causing the dollar’s value to fall to zero in mere days. Everything needed to trigger this collapse is already in the pipeline, and it is only the truly benighted, Nobelist Paul Krugman foremost among them, who cannot see the obvious. As for mortgage debt, you will still owe $250,000 on your home the Day After, except that your home will be much more deeply underwater than before – worth perhaps $20,000 instead of $180,000.  Mortgage lenders will have to work with you – work with scores of millions of homeowners who are in the same boat – to bring about a reconciliation.  No one can predict how already-unpayable mortgage debt will ultimately be paid, but it is almost certain to require a radical change in our laws in order to avoid the kind of social upheaval that could jeopardize the very rule of law.

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  • Redou September 27, 2010, 12:52 am

    What is most likely to happen:

    1) prices of necessary items
    ( Food, medical care,
    gasoline) will go up in dollar terms.
    2) prices of unnecessary items (mcmansions, sailboats, vacation houses)
    will go down in dollar terms.

    inflation / deflation simultaneously – not one or the
    other

    3) the dollar will remain the legal means of exchange
    in America, although if it’s value comes in to
    question by a majority of Americans and or
    foreigners – government will issue the “new
    dollar” in another color or style and pretend to
    “back” it with gold or treasury bonds “special
    drawing rights” or whatever. The people will
    be forced to use it because they have no choice.
    Foreign governments will be allowed to exchange
    their dollar or dollar equivalent holdings for the
    new dollars – merely a bookkeeping exercize.

    from Wikipedia:
    “The Rentenmark (literally, “Security Mark”) (RM) was a currency issued on 15 November 1923 to stop the hyperinflation of 1922 and 1923 in Germany.
    The Rentenmark replaced the Papiermark. Due to the economic crises in Germany after the Great War there was no gold available to back the currency. Therefore the Rentenbank, which issued the Rentenmark, mortgaged land and industrial goods worth 3.2 billion Rentenmark to back the new currency.

    The Rentenmark was only an intermediate currency and was not legal tender. It was, however, accepted by the population and effectively stopped the inflation.”

    3)Of course, it is to US gov’t advantage to keep interest rates low and create a slow devaluation of
    the currency – they have pursued these same policies for years – essentially stealing wealth from the public
    and from foreigners holding dollars or paper which
    must be eventually exchanged for dollars – without passing more taxes. This will continue to occur unless a crisis backs US government in to a corner.
    Each year, your bank account or paycheck erodes in
    value – you are purposely forced into the markets to
    try to keep up with inflation.

    4) Wages in America will fall for most people except for persons with high demand skills that cannot be outsourced – or if you work for a politically connected business or have a government
    job – politically connected union – etc…..

    5) As wages and benefits fall in America and rise in
    other nations – some jobs will return – but this cycle
    will take many years. America will never enjoy the
    same advantages it had after WWII again.

    6) Socialism has been accepted by a majority of politicians and the public. Most people do not pay
    any income tax and a high percentage of people receive government handouts – “benefits” now.
    This process will continue into the future meaning
    home ownership, automobile ownership, nights on
    the town, expensive vacations – Materialism – will
    be severely restricted except for the wealthy.

    7) A European style tax system with rates of 50% to
    70% will be gradually instituted.

    8) If a social crisis does occur, all the old FDRoosevelt remedies will be tried. At some point,
    segments of the population will work for food. Rationing of essential items, in a social crisis situation, is likely. People on social security will go to
    the store and buy red tagged items at fixed prices.
    These items will be produced by suppliers on government contract – the difference in the cost of
    production and the sales price will be made up by
    taxes on the private sector.

    9) Government’s entire reaction to the current chain of events will be totally ineffectual and counterproductive – in economic terms – but in political terms – the crisis will be used to further
    cement and augment government power. That is why this is not so much an economic crisis as a political crisis.

    10) What is really happening, and is vastly more important than the rise or fall in any particular asset
    value – is the generational change in the hearts and
    minds of the American Public, from formerly being
    free actors – people who thought their fate was in
    THEIR hands – to people who accept government
    as their savior. If losing 20% of their jobs and half
    their retirement in rigged markets while the government gives billions to their banker buddies
    won’t make the public revolt – then nothing short
    of hunger will.

    11) The Main Stream Media – which is owned by
    people who think all of this is good – are in bed with
    the government – and want to cement the media power – guaranteed profits forever – will keep the
    public misinformed about all this – as they have been
    doing for many years. Honest reporters will find
    no home in the MSM.

  • Pieter du Plessis September 23, 2010, 9:17 pm

    At the most fundamental level, money is simply a mechanism to facilitate barter trade. Without money, you have to carry around your sheep so you swap it for wheat. The value of money is ultimately the value society ascribe to it. Inflation is created when there are more means of barter than underlying product to trade with it.

    As printer and distributor of the world’s reserve currency, Uncle Sam plays the role of privileged debtor. He owes not just billions, but multiple trillions. Central banks all around the world play the role of willing creditor, filling up their reserve tanks with dollars.

    Were the $USD to become worthless overnight, then, it would not be just Uncle Sam with a problem. Virtually every central bank in the world would have a problem.

    These central banks have gold on the books too, of course. But the percentage of reserve assets dedicated to gold, as opposed to dollar-denominated assets, is tiny.

    As far as abandoning the dollar goes, this creates a sort of Mexican standoff situation – what major emerging market nation wants to get the ball rolling on vaporizing a majority of its reserve assets? What major exporter wants to see a huge customer (perhaps the biggest) go bankrupt? What aspiring superpower has a keen interest in financially slitting its own throat?

    The stability of the international financial system is a collective good that every capitalist (or quasi-capitalist) country benefits from. Letting the dollar turn to confetti is akin to blowing up the linchpin as such that the system completely disintegrates.

    In such a scenario, there are no winners — not even holders of physical gold, because if a dark day such as this comes to pass, physical gold stores may well be confiscated under military order at gunpoint.

    Then, too, there is the unanswered question: Who or what will ascend to the throne should King Dollar fall? As of now, there is no worthy successor.

    The euro may have difficulty surviving. The Japanese yen also has a whiff of doom about it, as Japan’s long deflationary nightmare threatens to resolve itself in chaos. And as for China’s currency? Not ready for prime time yet. China is deeply export dependent, deeply vulnerable to protectionist backlash, highly opaque in its reporting of economic data and quite possibly a propped-up facade fueled by out-of-control infrastructure spending.

    In the long run there are viable options for phasing out the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. In the long run there are options for switching from pure fiat to a 21st-century version of a commodity-backed currency. But in the short run, there is no suitable replacement for greasing the wheels of commerce. Gold is an exemplary safe haven and systemic crisis hedge. But there is not enough of it, not enough structure in place, for the yellow metal to simply and quickly take the dollar’s place and to return to a barter trade system using gold as the value standard .

    Rather than burn up quickly and violently, like a dry leaf or a piece of tinder, the dollar is more likely to smolder — burning hot but slow, like the notorious tire dump fires that can last for years (or even decades). And as this occurs, the other fiat currencies of the world may well smolder and burn along with it.

    Again, this “slow burn” scenario is an excellent recipe for gold and gold stocks. But given the asset side of America’s balance sheet (which remains formidable) and the lack of credible reserve currency alternatives, the prospect for full-on hyperinflation — in the next few years at least — seems slim.

    (With credit to Taipan Publishing who expressed some of the above thoughts before I did!)

    • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 11:41 pm

      Hi there, Mr. du Plessis

      I agree that gold won’t do well in a hyperinflation. Another poster asked earlier (Max, I think his name was) about paying off the mortgage once gold goes to the moon. There’s a lot of reasons why I think that to be worse than it sounds, but I didn’t have it in mind to talk about those reasons. You seem to understand those reasons anway. What I’d like to discuss is…

      “Gold is an exemplary safe haven and systemic crisis hedge. But there is not enough of it…”

      150 decillion. If we had 1 quadrillion spend-happy politicians in the world (though it may seem that way already!), each spending 1 quadrillion dollars, they could do so for 150 quadrillion years before running out. The sun would burn out first!

      150 decillion also happens to be the approximate number of gold atoms in the above ground supply, any and all of which could be transacted digitally, as with GoldMoney or Bullion Vault (two name two digital gold/silver money services providing allocated ownership).

      We have more than enough gold, mints, assayers, and computing power to make it work (most certainly too well, if we were to use atoms as units of currency. Hyper inflation could come about that way, too).

      As for converting currency over into gold, there are ways to do that as well. This could be done in less time than it took to make everything Y2k compliant, except cheaper and actually solving real problems 🙂

      It’s all there, waiting to be realized, then utilized.

    • jj September 23, 2010, 11:58 pm

      Pieter du Plessis.. “Were the $USD to become worthless overnight, then, it would not be just Uncle Sam with a problem. Virtually every central bank in the world would have a problem. ”

      Exactly!…its why Gold is rising as currency against all currencies, not just the US$

      Arrogance forms within every country in history that its currency was/is the worlds reserve currency, the US$ is no different, Wall St and the government doesn’t believe rules of economics apply to them…..Gold at todays rate $1298 is telling them the World is Round and yes it does!

      The SDR may become the next reserve currency backed by a % of Gold and a basket % of currencies…In the New World Order as the IMF becomes the global central banker.

      I agree with you the prospect of a “Loss in faith regarding the US$” creating Hyperinflation in the next few years is slim….imo and that of one of the smartest men on the planet M.Armstrong it will happen within 9 months

  • Bradley September 23, 2010, 8:25 pm

    Rick, I’m really glad that you removed Brian’s stupid and hateful comment from above. Thank you for moderating this forum and allowing even the most wacky opinions (IMO), but keeping a level of taste and decorum. (Please feel free to treat this as an email to you and remove it if you like as well…)

  • flore September 23, 2010, 3:42 pm

    I’ll give you all a hint

    Some see metals from a view of only “supply and demand”. Supply must be put for use and real demand must consume to produce a product. It is not this way with all things! If a person holds gold, must that holding is viewed with the one purpose, to sell some day for profit or loss. It is for some minds that gold in both hands can have no use? Such a mind can only see value in paper terms. For such thought finds gold as wealth, only if it is someday turned back to paper! Paper, indeed! A dangerous position to hold for the future in our lives!

    Brokers and traders will show you, “turn your gold into wealth”, “put it to productive use, Trade It”! “Sell your gold and buy it again, many times”. “Do this and find the value lost from your youth”!

    But I say, spend your time in the company of truly wealthy ones, see how they make gold lie very still! Know this now, the world will again, in your time, feel value in gold as never before. And that value will be as the “productive use of holding wealth thru the fire of change”. “Yes, you can also walk in the footsteps of giants”.

    Think now in light of the real world around us. Hold your assets in the sun of day, what do we see? A government bond denominated in a currency? Now, remove the currency from the bond, show what is in your hand? Hear me now, we see nothing of “productive use”! Yes, there is supply of the currency, and we have demand for the currency, but the end product is as the space between stars! Even in this “light of day” a trader/ government will tell you, “hold not that commodity, gold, for it is as a dead, unproductive asset”. I say, run from these lies, for they see not deep in the future!

    Is this not true? I an slow, but many think for me. Read please:

    “Noone can see the value of a real asset when knowing how many currency units it is denominated in. Value is only known when holding one real asset next to another real asset and comparing the currency unit valuations of both. Use as an example, a $75,000 $US Mercedes and a small apartment, also $75,000. They can be traded using the currency as a temporary holding until the transaction is complete. The car and apartment are viewed as having productive use of equal value. However, it is the items that have the value, not the currency unit! The currency is of but momentary value expressed as “the intention of a trade completion”. Complete the trade and “poof” the units hold no future value. At this point in time, everything in the world is “denominated” in currencies that have no use, except to complete the trade! Trillions upon trillions of digitized currency are currently being held for the “completion of commerce”, extending out into other lifetimes! Of course we are speaking of any form of currency denominated debt, be it government or private.

    The major threat to this collection of wealth holdings would be the introduction of any real asset currency. Any country that could “resource a currency” of use the world over does pose a threat to the wealth of nations greater then war! It is in the realm of possibilities, that a gold or oil based system would bring a resolution to the present structure as equal to ” a nuclear war of currencies”. Our concept of value, would indeed have to start over. “

    • Steve September 23, 2010, 7:44 pm

      Yes ! Gold is value, current currency only a tally sheet of how far one has gone into the pit of debt.

      1929, congressional record – People have too much “value” at home. Crash. Corporate seizure of gold 1934. F.D.R. creates executive/territorial gold dollar standard in High Treason. Total destruction 1971, no more Dollars. 1985 – a failed try to return “value” to trade. Fraud in the Gold Bullion Act of 1985 in violation of the ‘intent’ of the Senate.

      Propaganda works. People cannot abstractly understand that gold is constant, notes a constant tally of depth in the debt hole.

  • Flore September 23, 2010, 12:02 pm
  • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 10:20 am

    I wouldn’t say your views on HI are nutty, Rick. Clearly, it has to come about through a bending/breaking of the usual rules. If the rules were adhered to, bondholders could screw themselves down to the penny (or less) to the ‘dollar’. While that would (or should) ruin any remaining confidence in central bank and Treasury policy, it wouldn’t nessecarily have to devalue the currency to the point where confidence was utterly lost. It didn’t during the Depression era, after all, nor have the rules seen a loss in confidence in currencies thus far (decline, yes. Loss, no).

    • Steve September 23, 2010, 7:31 pm

      Depression era –

      Federal Reserve Note is good for money unless specially objected to. McLeod v. Hoover La. 1925. In other words; by private contract “bull crap” can be defined as money (we are not talking coining Money, or legitimate Legal Tender for a several State)

      U.S. Notes were in circulation, and still are in circulation though rare – a U.S. Note must be able to be exchanged for a Thing that can be exchanged for gold. This is the Lincoln “Green Back”, still in circulation from the 1860’s. We are still paying for the War of Northern Aggression from 1861.

      Federal Reserve Notes could be redeemed in Dollars, Article I, sec 8, cls. 5, Article I, sec.10, cls. 1, Coinage Act of 1792 – in 1929 Depression years.

      Since 1971 a federal reserve note cannot use the word Dollar legitimately (now a counter note), as it, the note, is valueless in a confidence scheme. You think it can, he thinks it can; it will (time wears on this belief as Things get worse today)

      In 1971 the distinction of a federal reserve note as territorial under Article I, sec. 8, cls. 17 became really clear. One can look at the Currency Cases of the supreme Court. And then look at Title 31 Public Policy. Which ‘policy’ was to proceed in territorial (Reconstruction Acts of 1867) powers legislatively, and military powers executively, with the Courts in a revolving spinning wheel of International Law, Military Infractions, Roman Civil Law, Maritime Law, and Private Law. (ie; B.S. can be money under private contract). With the 14th amendment, and the corporate enfranchisee ‘business’ residency the congress could presume everything their created citizen does is ‘commercial’, and the Commerce Clause comes into play. See; Obamacare = Commerce Clause justification that a sick slave is bad for business.

      Propaganda works. “The Prince” is a great work of art, by practitioners of fiction (attorney). Infringement works because one cannot throw a frog in boiling water, and “they” know it. (the mystical unicorn “they’)

  • Steve September 23, 2010, 8:11 am

    And now, what I was going to write before Brian. 1 ounce gold in a Coin struck as Legal Tender is a Double Eagle.
    The value of a Double Eagle is established in specie Dollars. A Dollar is 371 4/16ths grains of fine silver, ‘silver specie’ struck in a Coin by the Mint as Legal Tender.
    50 Dollars, silver specie ‘value’ is struck on ‘face’ on a current Mint Double Eagle gold Coin.

    All else is Brian.

    Federal Reserve Notes are not ‘Dollars’, and have no ‘value’, except as a territorial tally of debtor status. Get it? A Canada Dollar is not a “Dollar”. An Aussie Dollar is not a “Dollar”. Nor, is any other dollar a “Dollar”.

    Think ‘territorial powers’ federal reserve notes.
    Think several States – specie Dollars.
    Think federal subject person in tally fee.
    Think Sovereign.

    Robert, we are Sovereign now ! If 1 person acts Sovereign he will be hurt. If 3% act Sovereign there will be War. If 33% act Sovereign – we may find Peace. There is still hope. Earthy sovereignty comes with a harsh price – assault, breach, fraud, theft, trespass – all crimes that can eliminate Sovereignty if committed. Find me one man who is free (worthy) to be Free ! Thank goodness for the repentant heart. I know of no congressman who could ever be Free, or Sovereign. I know of no banker, or government worker who may be Free under the Common Law. I genuinely fear the event that would force, or allow men to be sovereign again. Remember the power of Man, the Authority of Man, and the fear of being responsible for the use of authorized power. It is not that Men are not Sovereign, they just refuse to be responsible and are thus enfranchised to legalese.

    • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 10:52 am

      Steve,

      Since you know about this, maybe you can help me find an answer that’s been alluding my search for some time now… How did they come to determine that a dollar was 371 and 4/16 grains of silver?

      All I have is a guess. And for the sake of learning and debate, I’ll share this ongoing guess…

      The Census. Every ten years, the population is destined to change, plus or minus. Perhaps great, perhaps little. Land mass might also change, but that’s something lesss frequent. Anyway, compare those changes to the last Census. Obviously, if those change to any great degree, the budget gets bigger or smaller (more/less border and sea to protect, need for courts, representatives, postal routes etc).

      But the money supply may not change in the same way, or at all. Therefore, definitions of a dollar may need to change. Too, there is Article I, Section 8…

      “To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures”

      If that is the case, or anything close to it, then is there any saying that a dollar is in fact 371 4/16th grains of silver? Or rather, should be, at this time?

    • Larry September 23, 2010, 4:18 pm

      Because that was the average weight of a Spanish Dollar, the common coin used in colonial America.

    • Steve September 23, 2010, 6:46 pm

      Yes, the Spanish Milled Dollar was the World Standard of value in the 1770’s

    • Steve September 23, 2010, 7:01 pm

      To continue the discussion, the Coinage Act of 1792 established the ‘value’ of Our Dollar.

      In 1934 congress, in violation of the Separation of Powers Doctrine, allowed the executive to take exclusive legislative powers at Article I, sec. 8, and create a military/executive gold dollar having a value in grains of fine gold (99.999 fine).

      In 1985 congress acted to bring Specie Money back to the People so they could Pay (extinguish) their debts. Reagan was shot, the congress changed the name of the bill to the Gold Billion Act of 1985.

      Check with the Treasury website, or call the Mint. The legislative Standard (see; Constitution) originally set in 1792 is still the Standard today. The Mint as information on Coin, what is Coin, what the Standard is for Coin, and how Coin must be struck as Legal Tender. Any Coin struck by the Mint is still Legal Tender if the ‘strike’ can be read. It has a Face, or value – gold has changed from 20 to 50, the ratio of value, but; a Dollar is only 371 4/16ths grains of 99.999 fine silver in a Coin struck as Legal Tender.

      I called the Federal Reserve and they refused to call their notes “Dollars”, and they affirmed the frn is “valueless” based upon liens against property. The Banking Act of 1913 states that “use” creates a “General and Paramount Lien” against all discharged property.

      Gold is valued in silver Coin Dollars at a ratio of 50 to 1 under the Act of 1985. Gold Coin is an Eagle, Double Eagle etc. & etc. etc..

      The Senate Record in 1985 tells the story of the Legislative Branch paying their debt to the People by insuring there would be use of Coin, and Extinguishment.

      The bankers did not like it. The rest is history from 1985. The Coinage Act of 1985 became the gold bullion act of 1985.

      Call the Mint, look at the Website –

    • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 7:10 pm

      Thanks for come-back, guys. I forgot about that Spanish dollar. I also phrased my question wrong. I should’ve asked…

      Currently, a dollar is one full troy ounce of pure silver, or one silver eagle. And a gold eagle, being 50 dollars, makes the ratio 1:50. How and why?

      It would be nice if there was some kind of standard, a set of rules, that said what Congress was allowed to do when deciding these things (or not, and just leaving it alone). The Coin Acts, as they pass, would ensure a stability over some named period, but they could always set that term for, say, one year (or less). On the opposite side of the coin, if there is a shortage of metal that develops between a longer period of time(for whatever reason) that could present quite a burden on the market and economy, as well as short government on needed revenues.

      Or maybe not. That’s why I’m interested in finding out what determines weights and measures of our dollar.

  • Steve September 23, 2010, 7:45 am

    Brian,
    Dry the inauthenticity, and disingenuineness. I doubt anyone reading this forum will misunderstand the self description professed above. When I lack the intellectual ability to covert a congressman’s thoughts – I just revert back and call them shit for brains.

  • Steve September 23, 2010, 6:08 am

    Gold, ya got it. Someone can take it from ya.

  • Todd Zapel September 22, 2010, 9:39 pm

    Au & Ag:
    Question Is Rick’s credibility being impaired or am I mistaken, he says today:
    That could explain why stocks fell yesterday while gold and silver soared.
    Didn’t Gold and Silver hit on the order of an all time HIGH today??? Is he High?
    Rick I hope you comment on this Thur.
    Todd orion1122@sbcglobal.net

    &&&&&

    Come again, Todd? RA

    • donniemac September 23, 2010, 4:05 am

      LOL
      Hitting an all time high kind of qualifies as soaring!

    • Steve September 23, 2010, 6:14 am

      I’ll take a shot. Gold is the same as it was, and will be.
      Gold has not changed in value, or ability to buy.

      Everyone believes there will by hyper-inflation, and thus what is believed is appearing as people trade in federal reserve notes for gold. At some point the masses are going to need to sell gold to pay their debts.

      This is especially true of the big boys playing with small toys we call the banks, corporations, and tradesters. We are in a simple wave where everyone has just got to get it. What happens when everyone has just got to sell it ?

      Think long term – 6 years out !

    • keith September 23, 2010, 8:39 pm

      [Gold has not changed in value, or ability to buy.]
      Yes it has. A given number of ounces of gold now buys more stocks, a bigger house, nicer car, more food, and a vacation than it did 2, 5 and 10 years ago. Expect more of the same.

  • brian September 22, 2010, 7:46 pm

    More evidence that’s time to go long the ole buck for a trade 😉

  • keith September 22, 2010, 7:34 pm

    Wouldn’t panic selling of bonds put the mother of all short squeezes on the dollar? I believe it would. There is no rule that says bonds can’t collapse as FRN’s soar in value.

  • ricecake September 22, 2010, 6:00 pm

    I agree with Andy Xie’s theory that japan can have deflation is because of 1) Japan don’t need foreigner to fund their debt. They fund their own debt. 2) China’s cheap labor factor in the past 30 years so Japan can enjoy cheap prices, while the emerging economy in the past 30 years have no purchasing power.

    Now China, India, Brazil and other emerging countries increase in their buying power. Demand world wide is increasing. Shortage of food due to unexpectedly expected natural disasters creating great shortages in food and good. So price will increasing and has been increasing. Goods will go to the countries and people who can pay the higher price. Place where burden with debts will get less goods and they also have to pay higher prices. This especially true in countries which depends on foreigners to lend them money. Still remember few years ago traveled to Europe suffered from the high cost of living over there. And feel how fortunately to live in the USA. Now worry about the fate of high cost of European living will fall on America soil too.

  • Max Power September 22, 2010, 5:55 pm

    “When municipal and corporate bond traders realize on that same day that there is no official support for their markets, private debt will go into a death spiral, forcing the Fed to monetize all bonds. Under the circumstances, the Fed would not become merely domestic debt’s buyer of last resort, but the only buyer. Voila! Hyperinflation.”

    Excellent speculation! Foreign holders of US debt are at high risk of rapidly forcing down the value of the US dollar as they run for the exits. But this could happen to more than just one currency though. This should have already happened, but the major central bankers have so far been working together to prevent this scenario from surfacing. They know this just as you know this. So, you can be sure they will be working very hard to prevent such a scenario from arising. As to what they will do, I highly suspect that a single world banking system will come out of this. There has been talk about this for years now. But they will only all agree to it out of desperation, and it will be sold as a great and progressive development for the world. Such a banking system would eliminate the absurd competitive currency devaluations that have made possible the the ridiculous trade deficits the US has experienced. Such a development may also result in controls that limit the volatility of gold and silver, or its safe haven appeal. Who knows. But whatever the outcome, there will be a lot of angry folks out there, and they will be looking for someone to beat up.

    • Buster September 22, 2010, 9:25 pm

      This plan for a world bank is well underway right now. Look it up.
      “But they will only all agree to it out of desperation, and it will be sold as a great and progressive development for the world.”
      -exactly what’s been planned and in motion. They’ve got truck loads of desperation ready for dumping on us!
      “Such a banking system would eliminate the absurd competitive currency devaluations that have made possible the the ridiculous trade deficits the US has experienced.”
      -no matter what positives ‘could’ come from it, the history of these vipers guarentees that promises will be paid in lies and corruption. They never do anything for the long term good of the people. Everything is devised for themselves.

      “But whatever the outcome, there will be a lot of angry folks out there, and they will be looking for someone to beat up.”
      -I’m sure someone innocent is being lined up for the sheeple to take their misguided anger out on. The real perpetrators are always well protected and far away from trouble!

  • Steve September 22, 2010, 3:55 pm

    It would appear very inauthentic to option Rick’s stance in regard to the longer term into submission on the ultimate reality in regard to where the cycles of Nature end, and start again. There is nothing misguided about stating the facts in the long term in regard to deflation, and noting that the fed will try to inflate, and that will appear as spikes, and stagflation. Binges of ‘credit’ creating inflation in any of its forms is a normal ‘market activity’ in controlled / closed markets.
    Long term deflationary power has been subverted by massive injections of cash, and tons of ‘credit’ bought by China, all ending with fewer and fewer American workers having jobs. The only other thing that is supporting inflation is “welfare” unemployment, and payola to government union workers, who produce no product of value in manufacturing terms. Without the credit binge in the way of welfare in government employment, and welfare unemployment, deflation would be really real.
    The trouble with all short term thinking in regard to hyperinflation is that everyone is forgetting the debt load that must be serviced. Each injection of fiat phony credit exasperates the damage that will occur because the costs of trying to inflate is costing about 10 to create 1 federal reserve note of inflation(could be 100 to 1, as it cost nearly 1m in stimulus to create a 50k job doing facades in Sandy Town 2009/2010).
    The fed policy stance is to gradually shear the sheep with 2% tax via inflation. Look at how angry people are already in regard to bailouts, lost jobs, and government corruption. The fed will not allow hyperinflation because there will be blood in the streets. The fed will fight deflation, but; that creates a greater problem in the way of a vacuum of debt that must be serviced.
    In the most basic terms, the problem is a ‘1’ federal reserve note costs ‘1.o6’, which is then enhanced by the banking industry into loans of ‘10.60’ to customers. Eventually there is only “1” to pay back “1.o6” x 10 which means that the product that was bought at “1.60” can only be paid for with “1.o”. Throw in ‘friction’, which is the cost of doing business, and the deflationary powers increase. (good firemen know that friction in a long hose means no water to the fire) The friction factor today is that it costs 10 to produce 1 of inflation. The 1 is just wasted energy in the way of welfare government jobs, and welfare unemployment benefits.
    Nearly all ‘real’ manufacturing has been outsourced. Now I.T. is being outsourced so fast that a college degree in I.T. is worthless unless one wants to relocate in India for 1/10th the wages.
    Increased productivity means less workers getting a paycheck, and more people seeking 18 month welfare.
    Cost cutting, ‘say corporate profits’ come by firing employees in todays realm, or productivity – which is less employees producing more product. (spiral down – less workers to buy more product)
    In real terms more and more people are falling off the end of the 18 month welfare. Real unemployment is increasing, and jobs that pay more than $8.00 bucks an hour are rare.

    Hyperinflation – the people will riot.
    Hyperdeflation – the people will riot.
    Status quo – the people will riot.

    Count 18 months and then evaluate where the economy will be. The U.S. does not manufacture anything of value. The Clinton I.T. future is transferring to India. Corporate America has laid off everyone they can to produced profits. Productivity is the ‘other’ profit maker, and that reduces the number of workers in the work place. Loose your job, get lower wages if you can find a job.

    If one can show me how there are more ‘notes’ than are needed to service the debt I’ll bite into the hyperinflationary scheme long term. (each American owes 400k after every thing of value is sold – now service that debt, or prepare to be serviced) Short term the fed and congress can inject welfare in unemployment, and welfare government jobs creation, and China and the fed can artificially keep interest rates low for a time limited.

    Simple facts. We owe 1.06, and there is only 1.00 to pay with. Throw in inflated housing, inflated stocks, inflated welfare, and we only have .25 to service 1.o6. The single thing that must be chased is the ultimate debt owed. There is .25 cents chasing 1.06 – how does that reflect reality ? Isn’t inflation 1.06 chasing .25 ?

    One cannot escape the ratio 1.00 to 1.06 that is the federal reserve system. Throw in the inflationary tactics of the past 60 years and the ratio is more like .25 to 1.06.

    .25 chasing 1.06 does not sound inflationary, no matter what the fed does in the short term, like inflating housing, like manipulation interest rates, like manipulating the stock market by giving banks ‘bailout’ to invest, like manipulating the World.

    (all numbers are suggestions, the ratios probably understated)

    In real terms there are less and less people working every day.
    In real terms former workers who find jobs are making less.
    In real terms the government manipulates the facts every day.
    In real terms the debt can never be serviced, and never be reduced without changing ‘accounting standards’.
    In real terms the U.S. is screwed because the cost to rebuild real manufacturing is too great.
    In real terms the welfare of ‘unemployment’ payments forever must end.
    In real terms the welfare to state government unions must end.
    In real terms the fiddler must be paid.
    Or, the fiddler must meet the C.I.A. and disappear by renditioning.
    The final answer in Roman in Nature; War Spoils.

    • jj September 22, 2010, 5:14 pm

      Steve, your comment: The fed will not allow hyperinflation because there will be blood in the streets.

      The fed has NO control, zero, none, nadda, zippo control in the currency markets regarding what causes Hyperinflation = Loss of Faith!! in a country’s currency, period.

      Inflation is when the economy overheats: It’s when an economy’s consumables (labor and commodities) are so in-demand because of economic growth, coupled with an expansionist credit environment, that the consumables rise in price. This forces all goods and services to rise in price as well, so that producers can keep up with costs. It is essentially a demand-driven phenomena.

      Hyperinflation is the loss of faith in the currency. Prices rise in a hyperinflationary environment just like in an inflationary environment, but they rise not because people want more money for their labor or for commodities, !! but because people are trying to get out of the currency !! It’s not that they want more money—they want less of the currency: So they will pay anything for a good which is not the currency. Those that didn’t have Gold in past Hyperinflationary times swaped a can of tuna for can of beans, alomost everything becomes a form of currency, everything except the $

      All hyperinflation in modern history has occurred for one reason, and one reason only………..
      That is loss of confidence in currency, and that the US fed has no control over and its a situation that can appear overnight…

      I’m not a Gold bug, just a US$ bear with 20+ years surviving the FX markets…..nobody for sure knows how this will all unfold….its just a good idea to prepare for the worst…..and if it nevers happens great!!

      Gold finally is acting like the true currency trade that its always been, a hedge against other currencies and as the US fed will continue to QE2- printing more paper $’s to buy their own debt devaluing the $ further and repricing Golds value higher.

      Take a look at commodities this am as the US$ index breaks below 80 they are all pricing higher………thats currency inflation.

      Cheers!

    • Robert September 22, 2010, 7:24 pm

      “In real terms the U.S. is screwed because the cost to rebuild real manufacturing is too great.”

      Too great priced in what?

      If priced in terms of a dollar that is losing it’s purchasing power, then I absolutely agree.

      If priced in terms of total private sector savings, then I also agree- less savings in the private sector means less capital for investment.

      If priced in terms of distorted US labor union wages, then yup, still true.

      If priced in terms of US Bonds then I must still agree.

      (remember, the term “bond” by design is debt-leverage levied against capital (time and labor) instead of being levied against asset colateral- this explosion of Bond issuance is doing EXACLTY what bonds are supposed to do- put pressure on the labor markets to either A) suck it up and work harder/longer, or B) Give up completely and throw in the towel.

      Look to me like B is winning, and winning BIG.

      Now, try pricing the cost of rebuilding US manufacturing in terms of Gold- you will find it is no more expensive to build manufacturing capacity here than it is in China…. hmmmmm.

    • Benjamin September 22, 2010, 8:24 pm

      Robert,

      My thoughts exactly. Gold.

      But as it also just so also happens, we’re not as empty on productive capacity as we might lead ourselves to believe. I’ve been around the country, to at least every state (except Alaska) at least twice and I know that there’s many moth-balled manufacuring facilities that be resurrected under the right circumstances. We’ve also no small amount of heavy equipment needed to, finally at long last, use more of our own resources. We got coal, oil, refineries…

      All just waiting for that first gold coin to drop into the slot and start ‘er up again!

      But it won’t be a walk in the park. Times will get tougher, yes, but I don’t think it’s anything we can’t get passed in a relatively short time. Maybe even set a record for a comeback, who knows?

  • SDavid September 22, 2010, 2:52 pm

    Given all the talk about “Masters of the Universe,” etc, it leaves me to wonder if – when this all unravels – we have PM stocks sitting in “their” chambers, what would stop “them” from confiscating OUR holdings?

  • kevin September 22, 2010, 1:57 pm

    We had 4-6 months of deflation. That ended when the FED cranked up the printing press to stop that right in it’s tracks. In fact, calling that blip deflation is stretching it. It was more of a counter trend rally if anything but prices and money did go down so I concide, deflation.

    We have so much inflation that it is stopping the natural deflation from this debt binge from impacting the real mans economy. A mighty feat if you ask me but I have pounded the table in this forum that severe inflation or hyperinflation is what is coming.

    The subtulty of your change of stance, very diplomatic and political of you Rick, did not not go unnoticed by me. You gave yourself an out here. So I will make it official, I accept your surrender prematurely.

    I guess when you saw Larry Summers running for the door, you decided to join him hence the political comment.

    I respectfully disagreed with your position but you constantly used this forum to push your misguided conclusion. But you never lowered yourself too name calling, some deflamatory comments but I responded like so were even.

    But your trading skills are second to none so qudos.

    Cheers

  • Buster September 22, 2010, 1:03 pm

    If you haven’t already seen the documentary “The Money Master” it is a must see. It will probably change the way you see the world thereafter.
    Find part 1 of 22 parts at Youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXb-LrVkuwM

    Once you have seen the documentary, what is happening makes a lot more sense:
    The present recession was a premeditated move by the Banksters begun in July 2007. It was a tried and tested technique of restricting money to the populous in order to create fear and chaos. This time it was done with the objective of achieving the next step in the Banksters global plan, which is to create an international monetary authory which will take controll of all international money transactions. In effect, nobody will be able to buy or sell anything without going through this new Banking authority. (This part may make particular sense to some of you reading this, if you know what I mean!!)

    “The purpose of this financial crisis is to take down the U.S. dollar as the stable datum of planetary finance and, in the midst of the resulting confusion, put in its place a Global Monetary Authority [GMA – run directly by international bankers freed of any government control] -a planetary financial control organization”- Bruce Wiseman

    To those that still think as ‘sheeple’ this will be a comforting solution that will take away the uncertainty of the global monetary system.
    The reality is very, very different.
    It will be one of the final steps that the Banksters will have made in order to have power and control over everyone on the planet.

    “The Money Masters” documentary should give you some insight into what will follow, as the total world population become slaves to the elites.

    The main point is that the US dollar is probably going down heavily now, so steer clear of it. Also, it seems highly likely that the UK’s & US’s gold reserves were offloaded into the hands of the Banksters about ten years ago, and historically they have preferred a gold standard money supply, especially when everyone is in debt already. This means that they are probably very happy for the gold price to keep rising, so long as not many of the sheeple have any.

    The other issue is silver. The Banksters outlawed use of silver as money as it was too available, and prevented them from crushing debtors so easily in the deflationary stage of their scam. It seems unlikely that it will be returned to money whilst the Banksters are in power, which they most certainly still are.

    However, the Banksters control is expected to end abruptly, according to the expected course of events, but this may be quite some time away yet.

    Hopefully we won’t have to endure the experience of their total control for any longer than is absolutely necessary!

    • Robert September 22, 2010, 7:01 pm

      Everyone is so fearful of the Rockefelleran New World Order of a single government of a supra-national intellectual elite of Global Bankers… Bah.

      The power of governments is an illusion- let the Bilderbergers believe that they are ushering in some fancy new era. The mental illness that underlies such utopian philosphy is incurable anyway- better we should let them burn all their energy and have it slowly fade away as they all croak over the next 20 years.

      I will submit that once there is a single government in place, there will only have to be a single coup in order to free the world.

      A single group of “elites” could not govern an “ideal” population of 500 Million any more than they could govern 6.5 Billion.

      The end game is individual sovereignty. The rest is noise.

  • Benjamin September 22, 2010, 9:06 am

    The one problem I have with Schiff’s scenario is that if holders of govt debt are desperate to get out, then doesn’t that mean the price goes down, as they all rapidly underbid each other?

    My guess is that that will be the second leg down (what the delusional are calling a ‘theoretical double dip’).

    We wouldn’t be at hyper yet, but with bond prices driven to hyper-delfationary levels, the Fed being the last and only buyer remaining would mean that they wouldn’t have to print/key in so much money.

    But that would also mean there would be a shortage of currency in circulation, which would see a great increase in the demand for ‘dollars’. Government would be the last and only big spender, and so wouldn’t have to spend very much.

    ie, The only way to keep this alive is to force just about everyone (themselves excluded) into more or less permanent bankruptcy. Hyper could then be a relative thing, and not nessecarily the typical wheel barrow outcome (as there is no difference between a million ‘dollar’ slice of bread you can’t afford vs a ‘dollar’ slice you can’t afford (what, quite possibly, isn’t there to buy at any price anyway).

    Of course, a truly great war or natural disaster makes all that go out the window. Maybe. It’s all really up to what the elite have in mind. If they really, truly believe that the world has six billion people too many, they might not even hyperinflate under those scenarios.

    • Benjamin September 22, 2010, 11:17 am

      This comment is in regards to the the link posted by Phil. I’m just posting it here just to keep things orderly…

      “Again, the man in the desert, the diamonds, and the water: If American consumers are getting hit at the gas station and the supermarket, they’ll start selling everything so as to buy gas, heating oil (most especially) and foodstuffs. The Treasury panic will thus be transfered to the average consumer—from Wall Street to Main Street by way of $15 a gallon gas prices, and $10 a gallon heating oil prices.”

      This is exactly what I was getting at in my first comment. Treasurys are ‘diamonds’, deeply flawed as they are (which would cheapen them even more), so
      how can we, through that mechanism, even get to the point where the consumer has to respond to a rush out of Treasurys?

      Everything seems to rest on that, but they’ve created a heck of a blackhole. Even with the Fed proping up prices, or rather because of their doing, that could keep money there, just as we’re seeing now. And because of the depressionary force that exerts, come time when holders are wanting for nessecities, to the point of thirst in the desert, they sell cheap(er). The consumer, meanwhile, is just broke and can’t afford much if anything.

      I think this time around, the only measure for anything close to hyperinflation we’ll have is gold (and by extension, silver). Enough money has escaped to drive the prices up, enough to, make it a relative HI rather than a rocket to the moon.

      That said, it’s entirely possible that even gold tanks, in a sense. ‘Buggish’ as I am on the hard money, I imagine that I would sell it for anything that could feed and hydrate myself, should I be so desperate. I also imagine that that would be the case for any holder. Everyone has their price, as the saying goes.

      Gold, ie, monetizes, whether anyone wants it to or not. The one thing that worries me there, good as that sounds, that the govt and banks (ultimately leading to the central bank) start to demand it, for taxes and debt, with the sole purpose of finishing off what FDR started.

      I offer this outlook not as a slam on the linked commentary (which is, as said already, quite good), but rather as a possibly unseen step in between from what the author provided. Once enough gold is lost/ removed, with the rest terrified into hiding, THEN the Chilean/hyper scenario? Not only that, but with an impunity to make previous Socialist diasters seem like a picnic.

    • Benjamin September 22, 2010, 12:38 pm

      After some thought, I’ve concluded that the bond/hyper _connection_ might have a chance of working, but not so much the very mechanisms of it.

      Suppose that, finally realizing things are stuck in depression mode, the Fed simply prints money to give to bondholders. Not for the purpose of buying them back, but rather so that the prices could be (prob temporarily) held in place, so as to not disrupt government credit life-lines as well as corporate bookkeeping. At least, in the short-term, but they could remedy that, which I’ll get to in a moment.

      That I can imagine happening. Bond sales could even be limited (which, in a way, is good, but not under these circumstances) so that money does not just go right back in, as Antal Fekete so often describes. In turn, the money flows uphill, accomplishing what they’ve been trying to accomplish all along. I also think this is fits in with what Rick often says. It would hyper inflate, but not in time to save all the underwater mortages, as most avereage, everyday people/single investors are not major holders of govt debt. No soup for them!

      If something like that were done, instead of more borrowing through Treasurys, taxes could go sky-high (esp “capital gains” on those who receive it), and government could just spend it all over again. Or they could, as pointed out with Chile, in the Lira commentary, become the worker’s “champion”, and declare wages higher and tax those after those artificially increased wages buy up the sudden glut of short-lived production.

      Whatever the case, Treasury prices theoretically could be frozen wherever/whenever they start doing something like that. No need to rush out.

      Along the same lines, and to challenge what I wrote earlier, even the gold price might not be reliable. If this were to happen, if it is not already, and government was nice and content to just raise taxes to recollect in the face of frozen/dying credit, not so much would have the chance to go into gold; the price is moving up, but is it accurate reflection of demand?

      Even the gold basis has been discovered to have been, in a word, screwed. To keep futures propped up, the suppression cartel is just given the money to keep the future price ahead of the spot (and gold “out” of backwardation, which is, to my understanding, a very important signal).

      We just might not see it coming through the expected channels, is what I’m getting at, as signal suppression could already be more rampant than is currently realized. If that is the case, then only an outright rejection of our illegal government would cause currency to lose all remaining, perceived value. Otherwise, waiting for the signals to show what we expect could be a long time in coming.

  • C.C. September 22, 2010, 8:07 am

    Isn’t it amazing – Gold. And Silver. As $Money…?

    Who would have ever thought – back in the days of $225 gold – the ‘barbarous relic’, ‘A thing of the past’, that the bone-deep fear of the financial unknown – built upon a foundation of sand (debt), would soon have modern man in the year 2010 offering up ~$1300/oz. for it…?

    Who would have thought that in the age of astonishing advancements in science, technology, medicine and finance (fiscal deceit, masquerading as sound economic practice), increasing numbers of our society would be nervous and doubtful enough of their own currency, to reach out to a gold or silver coin for security and solace…?

    The shiny reflection welcomes us back, while at the same time reminding us that although time has passed and technologies have changed, we haven’t –

  • Steve September 22, 2010, 6:29 am

    Everyone is playing options once a month, Friday big day.
    Everyone thinks the market is going up up up up.
    Everyone is buying gold.
    Everyone is predicting hyperinflation.
    Everyone thinks gold could go to 5k, and more.
    Every bill/debt/obligation still has to be discharged with federal reserve notes.
    No current obligation can be Tendered in Eagles, except at face value $50.00 – been there, done that, district Court U.S., Oregon.
    When the debts come due, one is going to give an ounce “Eagle” of gold to discharge $50.00 of debt, or one is going to need to buy dollars.
    Dollar up.
    Gold down.
    Big boys, little toys, little boys big toys.
    If prices go up because Yuan becomes more valuable, one is going to need dollars, more dollars to settle obligations, and to buy at Walmart, or Government Motors Company.
    The credit worth of a soul is -400,000.00 at birth.
    Wages are not going to go up, or will not be able to come close to keeping up.
    No manufacturing, means no real jobs.
    IT is being outsourced faster than one can speak.
    100k u.s. jobs, 25k Indian job in IT.
    There goes Clinton/democrat ” the future is I.T.”
    Productivity must peak.
    U.S. business cannot lay off more employees to create profit, or; a death spiral starts. Layoffs are slowing because there is no one left to make the products – if any product is still made in the U.S. ! (productivity gains can only work for so long, and productivity means fewer workers in the workplace.)
    U.S. workers must take lower wages to compete with India.
    That gold must be sold to buy at Walmart.
    Push on the string.

    Like always, few know when to get out, and few know when to buy.

    In regard to anyone holding federal reserve notes – they are NOT DOLLARS, and said notes have no value. The issue of federal reserve notes is a ‘tally’ of debt owed the master by the enfranchisee, tenant in fee, feud, feudal tenant, peon, serf.

    China has nothing of ‘value’ in federal reserve note debt instruments/U.S. debt. It is all a ponzy scheme. If China buys U.S. Natural Resources – they buy into a feudal scheme wherein they own nothing, all owing to the Master/Creator the Congress under Master/servant Law, and Law of Escheats.

    The shell game works because of greed. At some point there will be no pea. The government can only execute high treason in regard to money for so long. Eventually, the people will catch on. The Trial of Thomas, Earl of Strafford, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, for embasing gold Coin with brass, and forcing Loans.

    Your government is engaged in high treason. “The People by their quiet assent allow the lawlessness to continue” supreme Court u.S.A. It is the government of the federal union of states mobocracy that is in rebellion.

    I am at Peace, and the federal union of states is engaged in Causa Bella, forced loans, and high treason under the military colors of the commander in chief.

    FACT, not fiction.

    What one should worry about is China getting pissed off because the U.S. federal union of states is moral Less, and what they (the Chinese) have bought is fraud, misrepresentation, and feudalism to the New Order of the World.

    What one should worry about is the People waking up to the Facts of democracy, and the feudal Lord of Lands. YOU THINK YOU ARE FREE.
    YOU THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS GOOD
    YOU THINK IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN
    EVERYONE IS THINKING THE SAME THINGS

    Yet, you who read and write here are not ‘everyone’, you are among the few.

  • maxam magnata September 22, 2010, 5:51 am

    Hi,

    I didn’t understand why if we had a spike of hyper inflation $180,000 houses would be worth 20,000 dollars. When Rick said as for mortgage debt, you will still owe $250,000 on your home the Day After, except that your home will be much more deeply underwater than before – worth perhaps $20,000 instead of $180,000″. This sounds like a deflationary scenario rather than the inflationary. I might not be explaining my question well but it seems to me that it would be easier to pay back the mortgage debt since it would be paid back with easier to get inflated dollars. For example, if you sold gold to pay off the mortgage (which is fixed) you would get an inflation adjusted price for your gold and therefore get it paid of with less real money. Why wouldn’t house prices soar since they are real assets? Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

    Maxam

    • cwd September 23, 2010, 1:46 am

      You can if you have gold in your physical possesion.

    • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 5:57 pm

      Max,

      The money hits circulation. Prices of everything goes up. Result? Less borrowing to accquire a house, as people struggle just to eat. So if you want to sell your house, you’ll have to come down, and quite possibly, in an HI scenario, well past what it would cost to eat.

      The mortgage might be gone, but the price is still paid, one way or another.

    • Benjamin September 23, 2010, 6:53 pm

      Forgot one other point, Max…

      If the money doesn’t hit circulation, it goes into the morgage financing institution, where it sits as available to loan money. So if someone goes to buy your 250,000 (or 250,000 billion!), just how are they going to be able to pay that kind of mortgage?

      The same scenario would play out. Bail outs through more printing. Everyone loses. Either the mortgages keep reaching further and further into being unpayble, or we experience price inflation on nessecities. Either way, there is no way to realize that gain in price on a house. The same could be said by using less gold, as the gold price (inaccurate as I believe that to be) is itself a reflection of the whole process of credit/debt creation.

    • Rick Ackerman September 23, 2010, 11:37 pm

      Check out this link, maxam. It explains brilliantly how it will all go down:

      http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-hyperinflation-part-ii-what-it-will-look

  • donniemac September 22, 2010, 5:45 am

    Or is it possible that the relationship between dollar priced items and commodities, etc. decouples in such a way that neither deflation or hyperinflation is a major factor in the average Americans life. The price of gasoline/diesel can remain steady in the face of rising oil prices by manipulating the taxes on fuel and reduced demand. The price of food produced in the US can, and I would argue will, remain steady in relation to peoples’ income. I would support this position with the fact that throughout the world, food prices are generally priced locally (but are priced so that it takes a larger part of a families income to eat). If you take the 25% (a made up number) who are unemployed or underemployed totally out of the economic picture, that still leaves us with a nation of 225 million gainfully employed (or otherwise capable of living with some disposable income). And within my life, that is what the US was (a nation of 225 million or so) and the US was very prosperous back then, capable of every 3 supporting 1 more. What eventually happens is we are again wage competitive through the falling dollar for the ultimate end is a collapse of our currency throughout the world.
    I agree with the hyperinflation period though, I just do not think it will last long. Anyone who has convertible real assets, gold and silver for example, and, like me, has a mortgage or family members with reasonable debt – student loans, or business loans, etc. would want to make themselves debt free in that inflationary period. And I think that debtor’s will be happy to get the money from part of their portfolio’s of loans, not cringing about taking inflated dollars. Then comes the currency/dollar crash. And the “developed nations” will again be cost competitive with the “developing nations”.
    At the same time there will be a shift in attitudes/life styles of many Americans. Vegetable gardens will be in 95% of my neighborhood’s yards instead of the current 10%. The number of cars owned by many families will drop, and amount of driving will drop (this will help keep oil prices in line, we are still too big of a market to not influence the cost of oil), the number of meals eaten out will drop (brown bagging for lunch regains popularity), etc. We will discover what is truly important in life and it is not this headlong rush to buy more toys and bigger houses and vehicles, but to enjoy the love and company of our families and friends.
    The nations that hold our debt will not be able to unload it so the dollar will limp on to live again (hopefully with some kind of control, tied to a gold or silver standard for example), creating the new foundation for our economy to rise!
    I would point out that this is already happening: the increased savings rates, the move away from gas hogs to more fuel efficient vehicles, the locally grown food movement, and so on. And all of that and more gives me hope that the future will not be all doom and gloom.
    But then I guess most here have figured out that I am a Pollyanna!
    Don

  • VegasBob September 22, 2010, 5:03 am

    I have thought for quite some time that Bernokio stupidly painted himself into a corner with ZIRP and that there is no escape.

    If Bernokio fails to raise interest rates then confidence in the dollar and the dollar itself will eventually go to zero. The US is the world’s biggest debtor with a balance of payments problem that has no solution. Eventually, foreign creditors will refuse to go along with the dollar decline, and our standard of living will plummet along with the dollar.

    On the other hand, if Bernokio raises interest rates, he kills the entire economy – stocks, bonds, housing, consumer consumption.

    Still, I have to believe that Bernokio will raise rates before he allows hyperinflation, which would destroy the very banks Bernokio has protected. After all, Bernokio is first and foremost a banker, isn’t he?

    • BDTR September 22, 2010, 5:40 pm

      Actually not. He’s an academic.

  • keith September 22, 2010, 4:46 am

    Just another article about the impending doom lurking around the corner? It always sobers me to be reminded that someday soon we’ll see many people go through a stage of suffering. It’s polite to say, ‘hope it doesn’t really happen’. But the honest truth is, personally I do hope it happens and quick. Why? because we deserve it. We the people racked up a debt on future generations via a government that has neither the ability nor the intension to ever repay. I feel bad for the children but hopefully this debacle will be swift so they can live in a much better world. As for everyone else who were warned and scoffed at history I don’t feel too terribly bad for them. How in the world could people be fooled into thinking this whole thing wasn’t going to end bad anyway? Just my quick soapbox for the night. Cheers to all.

    • mario cavolo September 22, 2010, 6:54 pm

      Hi Keith,

      I haven’t been commenting much lately….picked up on your use of the word “will” …go through a stage of suffering. Its already here my friend, fresh and in their face for around 50 million Americans who were once reasonably comfortable middle class and now have nowhere to turn. If you’re thinking that yes its going to get much worse, you’re probably right but I think we’re already past the “will” happen stage… Cheers, Mario

    • mikeck September 22, 2010, 8:26 pm

      I’m with you on that thinking Keith,

      I’ve long stated I hope the crash happens sooner rather than later so I can help others through the burn…yes we, as a group, deserve it good and hard.

      Mike

    • keith September 23, 2010, 5:53 pm

      mikeck,
      I hope more people like yourself realize how important it is to help other through this mess. There is no greater joy than to be wise enough to prepare and then help those in need with the riches you found.

  • Other Paul September 22, 2010, 4:16 am

    The Fed/bankers and the US Gov’t have depended upon a slow, steady depreciation of the USD. A loss of confidence in the USD, ala JJ’s “freight train” to the 55-60 area, would be disasterous, especially if it occurred “too quickly.”

    Imagine digital cash becoming worthless in a break of, say, an index level of 50. If store shelves are empty, no amount of digital or paper cash is going to induce more supply when shelves and warehouses are empty until the next harvest.

    Society will get ugly, fast–unpaid utility workers, unpaid fire and police, etc., aren’t going to be there to preserve any kind of social order. Even the military has to feed their families and worry about their safety.

    Let’s hope that a sound currency will emerge to replace fiat before there is nothing left to save.

  • Phil September 22, 2010, 3:29 am

    Well, once Rick joins the hyperinflation club, then it smells like it is getting closer than before.
    Indeed, stocks and houses will dive down for food, but this is what hyperinflation is as this article from Gonzalo Lira describes how it was in Chili:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-hyperinflation-part-ii-what-it-will-look
    We are far away from “a little grocery inflation” speech – it’s more like kill the horse in the barn for food instead.

    • keith September 22, 2010, 6:19 am

      read the article… very good.

    • Rick Ackerman September 22, 2010, 8:39 am

      Thanks for this link, Phil. Lira’s article is the best I have read on the subject — a road map for anyone who would seek to avoid personal disaster when the inevitable day of reckoning arrives.

  • Edward September 22, 2010, 3:17 am

    I agree with the suggestion that Tuesday’s action amounted to something of a banner day as the stock market headed south while PMs headed decidedly north.

    In the meantime I’d like to volunteer that I’ve been a part of many of these longstanding discussions and (quite frankly) sometimes heated debates on how our present depression would play out, and while it appears that the Deflationists have done well to date, many, if not most of them, fail (or refuse) to understand why hyperinflation is destined to be a part of our on going depression drama. To that end, Rick has it exactly right when he observes that

    “…it is not some certain quantity of money injected into the banking system that will cause hyperinflation; rather, it will be the repudiation of all dollars already in circulation. ”

    Indeed, the effect of hyperinflation is often mistaken for the cause, such that there is a confusion regarding how and why the proverbial wheelbarrows full of money appear.

    In simple terms, those holding, for example, gold and silver, as well as other items of demonstrably tangible value refuse to accept paper/fiat (usually at any price) in exchange for their goods. This necessitates the monetary powers to take the sort of measures that are now the stuff of legend.

  • PhotoRadarScam September 22, 2010, 12:56 am

    What is missed in the deflation vs. hyperinflation debate is the fact that deflation will happen by *choice,* while hyperinflation will not be anyone’s explicit decision – it just happens. After all, deflation can quickly be remedied by injecting money into the economy… Remember the $1000 checks Bush sent out to almost everyone? Given that significant (not just 1-2%) deflation is a choice, it is difficult to imagine a scenario where the Fed or our government would allow deflation to occur to any significant extent.

    &&&&&&

    I’d say the opposite is true: Deflation implies that bankruptcies will simply play out in avalanche fashion, overwhelming whatever “choice” debtors might have had. Meanwhile, despite all the talk about the Fed “not letting it happen,” deflation continues to crush asset values in the wake of $14 trillion of implicit and explicit stimulus. Hyperinflation, on the other hand, will require an explicit political decision to reverse the tide. Even under the Schiff scenario that I sketched out, the Fed would have to decide to “rescue” all sellers of bonds, and a mere day’s delay could prove fatal to the effort. RA

    • PhotoRadarScam September 22, 2010, 9:21 am

      Schiff’s hyperinflation scenario isn’t the only one that’s valid, but the underlying principals apply to any HI scenario. People can lose faith in the currency WITHOUT involving the Fed. Such scenario can begin with the citizens of this country or foreign holders of US debt and currency. It doesn’t have to happen overnight – the move can start slow and begin to snowball. My comments remain accurate though – the fed would have no choice.

  • jj September 22, 2010, 12:50 am

    Mr R. A. finally you put into print hyperinflation and its cause “loss of faith” in currency…..which will be the indebted US$…as a former currency trader I know that faith can change in the wink of an eye far faster than Golds signal these past 8 years suggesting the world wake-up and respect Gold for what it is “currency”

    The 80 level is a key retest within the $ index but regardless of how the chart tics unfold 65-55 is coming like a freight train…..chooo chooo! and much, much higher Gold and every other commodity priced in US$’s

    The USof A will export its H-inflation as we here in Canada have our grocery shelves stocked with 80% goods from US manu, a 1.20 loonie will help offset some of the inflation but not all as these past 10 years have seen our Cdn$ rise some 50%+ against the $ but we are still paying more for food, each month…

    If your real estate values are going alot lower than why not pay back the bankers of W street who created these OTC derivatives and have everyone in the US stop paying their mortgages?

    From the ashes will rise a new beginning….

    So what converted the DEflationist to a possible sudden shot of HyperInflation….Golds move lately?

    Excellent article Rick

    • Cameroni September 22, 2010, 6:56 pm

      Actually JJ, Rick did write comments supporting Peter Schiff’s hyperinflation theory in an article I recall well from back in January titled “Schiff still has one thing right”.

      It stuck in my mind after all the inflation vrs deflation debates here when a light bulb came on in my head and I realized that both Peter and Rick would be vindicated in their seemingly disparate views. That in fact both an ugly deflation and an eventual hyperinflation would occur and that both were inevitable and unavoidable. Just for fun,…from the archives way back in January, this is what Rick wrote:

      “…….we would like to say a few things about hyperinflation, since, on this score, we think Schiff got it right. He believes that the Fed, having explicitly committed itself to holding interest rates down by purchasing unlimited quantities of Treasury debt, has put the U.S. on a hyperinflationary course. We agree. In fact, and as we noted in an earlier commentary here, Schiff has laid out such a strong case that it is hard to see how he could be wrong”