Ron Paul Should Add the USDA to His Hit-List

[The following commentary generated such a spirited discussion in the forum that I’m letting it run for a second day.  If you haven’t yet added your two cents’ worth, it’s time to jump in! RA]

Rep. Ron Paul’s proposal to cut spending and taxes by $1 trillion during his first year in office was the most e-mailed story yesterday at Wall Street Journal online.  In a perfect world, perhaps his campaign would get as much attention from the Journal’s editorialists as it does from the paper’s readers. Ditto for TV coverage, where Paul seems to get respect only from, of all people, Jon Stewart. Stewart is one of the few commentators who seems to have noticed how well Paul scores with voters even as reporters and news editors continue to ignore him (or rudely disdain him, as is the case with Fox blowhard Bill O’Reilly, who presumed to go toe-to-toe with Paul on a subject — economics — that O’Reilly clearly knows nothing about).  Most recently, alas, the newsies have been so busy tearing into Herman Cain’s elemental 9-9-9 tax plan that they will have had little time to ponder Paul’s trillion-dollar idea. Most of the savings the Texas congressman seeks would come from eliminating five cabinet-level departments – lumbering bureaucracies that millions of Americans would doubtless agree we can do without: Education, Energy, Commerce, Interior and HUD.  Other than the vast army of civil service workers employed by these FDR-era throwbacks, who would ever miss them, right?

Paul’s plan sounds like a winner to us, but we would urge him to consider adding to his hit-list the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which is not merely counterproductive like the agencies listed above, but nefarious. If you don’t know why the USDA deserves to be deep-sixed, the documentary film Farmageddon will open your eyes.  It begins with a woman recounting the frightening details of an invasion of her home by heavily armed men in flak vests. Her first glimpse of an intruder came as she started down a hall stairway. At the bottom, a black-gloved hand wielding an automatic pistol protruded from behind a living-room wall. Turns out a veritable SWAT-team of USDA agents, armed with automatic weapons and decked out like the troops that stormed bin Laden’s compound, had come on official business. Their mission?  To confiscate samples of raw milk being sold, via a food co-op, from a large pantry in the back of the home. This they did, guns drawn, after rounding up the family, including several children, and sequestering them in the living room for four hours.

Health Not the Issue

The woman had organized the co-op in order to dsitribute food produced by local farmers to her neighbors at a reasonable cost.  As it happens, raw-milk products are high on the USDA’s list of foods it would rather we did not produce or sell to each other. And if you think that sanitation and health issues are the agency’s key concerns, you are mistaken. As the film makes clear, these factors are just an excuse for USDA agents to break down the doors of co-ops and other small-time food producers and sellers who would deign to compete with the giants of agribusiness.  For at least one sheep’s milk producer, the outcome was far worse than having their door busted down. The USDA assault team showed up one morning to confiscate their entire herd — imported from Europe at great expense and with miles of red tape.  All the animals – scores of them — were killed and autopsied for mad cow disease. Test results eventually came back negative, which was no surprise, since the disease has never appeared in sheep. But it took years for a team of lawyers working gratis for the co-op to have the autopsy results released. At the time of the film’s release, the couple had not been compensated for the sheep.

Someone ought to send a copy of Farmageddon to Rep. Paul, since he may be the last best hope we Americans have of retaining the right to eat whatever we damned well please.

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  • Marc October 21, 2011, 9:06 pm

    “Assaults are broken down into degrees. Assault by penis, assault by breast, assault by mouth, assault by toe, pencil, broom, club, bottle are all tools that have been investigated by police. The issue of entering the ’space’ where a child grows is deemed especially heinous.”

    I don’t understand your point with these sentences. Sexual assault (of an adult) is defined as the penetration of the vaginal or anal orifice by any means, or of the mouth by the sexual organ of another. A vaginal sexual assault is not treated as “especially heinous” versus the mouth or anus; they are all the same degree of felony (my apologies if there is a state that does classify them differently — no state working off the Model Penal Code does so, and that is the majority of states).

    But more to the point, you did not explain how one can insist that the lining of the uterus is an exterior surface when the uterus is open to the abdominal cavity via the fallopian tubes. The corked bottle analogy is not really accurate, since the bottle has three openings, two of which open to the abdominal cavity and one of which opens to the exterior of the body. Only the latter is plugged during pregnancy; the tubes are always open. Hence my Mobius strip analogy: if the vaginal canal and uterine cavity or an external surface, then that external surface carries right over and out the fallopian tube openings per your donut rationale, and every surface of the female reproductive complex is exterior — there is no interior surface. And then the transition from/juncture between the uterine tissue and all surrounding tissue inside the abdominal cavity must be exterior surface, etc. You’ve rendered a woman a Mobius strip, with all surfaces external.

  • Mark Uzick October 21, 2011, 10:51 am

    >>>Steve October 20, 2011 at 6:20 pm

    Mark, Are you saying you want the Original Law, the Five Common Laws? The purpose of original law enforcement was to take complaint from an individual when the Peace and Dignity of Free States was violated by the act of one individual against another by a ‘crime’.

    Guess who has won by ignoring the Common Law? The state, yes?<<<

    I know little about the Common Law. I'm guessing that its purpose is to make the state conform to its supposed function and limitation as the guaranteer of individual rights that may be threatened by aggression, dispute or misunderstanding.

    If so, then the flaw in the Common Law is that it grants to an aggressive geographic monopoly the power to guard against that sort of crime of which it is itself guilty. You know how that ended.

    There is no law or constitution that can guarantee liberty; only when there is sufficient market demand for liberty will the agencies of the state be, one by one, closed or privatized and set free to adapt or die in the competitive marketplace.

    • Steve October 21, 2011, 5:43 pm

      Marc, @ There is no law or constitution that can guarantee liberty; only when there is sufficient market demand for liberty will the agencies of the state be, one by one, closed or privatized and set free to adapt or die in the competitive marketplace.

      I suggest a study of the Common Law – the premise that there must be an actual individual that is harmed, who then has a right to bring complaint.

      I agree that Liberty exists in the heart of Man. Yet, by DNA there are those who would be at Liberty, and those who seek to take Liberty. The Common Law was put away with by those who wish to take Liberty so that they can impose their ghetto style on others. Justification becomes a long discussion, so I end.

    • Mark Uzick October 21, 2011, 6:50 pm

      Steve: Justification is unnecessary as I already agree with everything you said, even what you said about the intent of the common law; and while I don’t disagree about its intent, I disagree with the law’s use of state aggression to protect against other instances of aggression. It’s this contradiction, uncorrected, that led to the Common Law’s downfall – my assumption being that the U.S. Constitution was, for the most part, based on it.

  • Steve October 21, 2011, 8:16 am

    @ Marc; no one goes to a dermatologist for polyps on their intestines, do they? No physician describes human digestion or embryonic gestation as external activities, do they?

    Well Marc, yes they do. As do Doctorate level professors who teach biological function. I learned the reality of the inside and outside in college biology and nowhere else. And in fact when one goes for a colon reaming the doctor doing the work is really a dermatologist with a fancy name looking for cancer with a fancy little scope and snare. Each studies the digestive trac in the same way understanding that what enters one hole comes out the lower hole without ever entering the body. Digestion is about disolving and passing from the outside to the inside where the body can use the sugars et. al.

    – – – -The semantics are yours Mark because there is only one inside, and one outside in fact. The rest is justification and creating truth by consensus of opinion instead of based in fact. The idiocy of claiming an assault as anything other than an assault speaks loud and clear. Assaults are broken down into degrees. Assault by penis, assault by breast, assault by mouth, assault by toe, pencil, broom, club, bottle are all tools that have been investigated by police. The issue of entering the ‘space’ where a child grows is deemed especially heinous.

    Rape is not a sexual crime, it is a crime of assault over a woman by the most damaging means. One learns that in Domestic Violence Training. Disingenuine inauthentic misrepresentation is the tool of democracy.
    Saying that 50 legislatures are legitimate while resting res judicata “. . . in rebellion. . .” also speaks of the ignorance of mobocracy. Just because 50 people agree about something does not make it so.

    Semantics Sir, it appears you know the truth about the bottle and the cork and try to excuse the truth by saying that 50 legislatures are anything but about the biggest bunch of dummies in the world practicing their mob rule and attempt to control the thoughts of others.

    Roe is correct under the 14th amendment because the corporate U.S. subject has no Roman Civil Law privilege until womb exit and cut of the umbilical cord. 5000 years of Law says the child has the Right of Inheritance at quickening. If you want to say that there is a right of murder of a third party in the case of rape – that is between you and your Creator. You may go on Marc, but; inauthentic science is just inauthentic admission of disingenuniness. I learned inside and outside in college. Guess they don’t teach the truth anymore in college – right Marc?

  • Steve October 20, 2011, 7:34 pm

    Marc, jumping the former thread to here on murder. Would you use your highly technical skills to explain the inside of the body and the outside of the body in regard to fallopian tubes? Which is inside the body, the side of the fallopian tube the egg travels down, or the other side of the tube that is exposed in the peritoneum?

    Taking that further. Which side of the alveoli is inside the body, and which is exterior to the air? Which side of the gut, digestive system, is inside and which is outside when the body is viewed as a donut, with the hole being the ‘inside of the intestine’ and the alleged outside of the intestine exposed to the peritoneum?

    Is a child in the womb attached to the exterior of the body, when that exterior skin organ source is traced to the epidural exterior on the face, or is the child inside the peritoneal cavity?

    If the uterus is prolapsed is it technically possible to have the child grow to full term as long as the “inverted pocket uterus” is protected from disease, dehydration, etc. & etc. etc.?

    Is the child contained inside the peritoneal cavity, inside the woman’s body?

    • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:49 pm

      to get a grip on that, one just needs to read Ron Paul about what he saw during his ob/gyn residency.

      After one abortion, the fetus was thrown in a trash can, still alive and wimpering, all present just ignored it, I think finally someone walked over and killed it.
      This inhumane attitude so disgusted him, it formed his whole attitude, and I can see why.
      Reading the description reminds one more of Mengele than physicians observing the oath.

    • Marc October 20, 2011, 7:52 pm

      Steve, I was just calling you out on your semantic games. Yes, the entire digestive tract, as well as the vaginal canal and uterine cavity, could be described as as exterior surfaces if one compares the human body to a donut, as per your wanting. Of course, no one goes to a dermatologist for polyps on their intestines, do they? No physician describes human digestion or embryonic gestation as external activities, do they?

      But even playing by your semantic rules, the donut analogy falls apart. Because, as I explained, the fallopian tubes are not part of a closed system with the uterus — they are open to the abdominal cavity, and the egg momentarily passes through the abdmominal cavity on its journey from ovary to uterus. Asking which surface of the fallopian tube or uterus is the interior and which is the exterior is a bit like asking which side of the mobeus strip is the inside and which is the outside. It is perfectly reasonable, logical, and biologically sound to say that all of those surfaces are INSIDE the woman’s body. Or perhaps you would like to tell us all that there is no such thing as rape by sexual penetration, since it’s really just contact with the outside of the victim’s body. There are 50 state legislatures that don’t seem to be aware of your keen insights about the human body.

    • Marc October 20, 2011, 8:18 pm

      By the way, although I find fault in your argument about internal/external, I completely agree that a woman’s choice over her reproductive rights comes with her decision as to whether ot have sex, rather than whether to carry the baby to term after the fact. Of course, that view of choice does leave open the question of abortion after rape — it is an innocent child, but it is also a woman who did not choose to enagage in sex.

  • Marc October 20, 2011, 7:08 pm

    Bravo, Chris T. That is exactly right. Just to add to your point, the Commerce Clause’s protection against discriminatory legislation “simply means differential treatment of in-state and out-of-state economic interests that benefits the former and burdens the latter.” Minnesota v. Clover Leaf Creamery Co., 449 U.S. 456, 471 (1981). So if State A wants to require pasteurization for health reasons, that is fine so long as dairy producers in the other 49 states can just as easily pasteurize their products for sale in State A. There is no need for the federal government to get involved in that matter, because it does not inihibit interstate commerce to any significant degree.

    On the other hand, if State A says milk cannot be transported more than 40 miles from point of production to point of sale for health reasons (avoiding spoilage), that would be discriminiatory against out-of-state dairy producers, and such a law can and should be found to violate the commerce clause (in this example, the inferred “Dormant” Commerce Clause).

    To allow the federal government to pass laws governing any product, service, or activity that potentially moves in or impacts interstate commerce is to give the federal government authority over everything — a position that is completely anathema to the Constitution.

    • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:39 pm

      I am surprised at that Burger-era decision, didn’t know of it.
      Rather amazing that such a, relatively recent approach “simply means…” can stand alongside all the other misguided decisions emanating from that body.

  • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 6:35 pm

    Benjamin:
    “However, regulations concerning interstate commerce belong the federal government”

    That is ONLY true in the originalist, 18th century meaning of the word:

    to regulate means to keep regular, that is
    to keep is happening.

    What the founders didn’t want is inter-state protectionism, and for the feds to ensure that it didn’t happen.

    But today’s use of that phrase, the whole modern Scotus ICC jurisprudence, is a fraud on that, and totally illegitimate.

    The ICC has become the catch-all for permitting the fed. gov. to grab just about any power it wants, because there is always a way to spin SOME FORM of effect on interstate commerce.

    Thus, the feds have clearly assumed powers to BAN some forms of interstate commerce, as follows logically from the modern usage of the verb “to regulate”.

    But clearly, a power granted to keep interstate flowing does not permit an action, that prevents interstate commerce.

    Another logical proof of this contention is the following:

    If the modern interpretation of the ICC being capable of conferring just about any power on the federal government were correct, what then is the meaning of all those other parts of the Constitution which clearly define the federal government as only having certain enumerated powers specifically delegated to it?

    No sane jurist would write those strictures into a document, only to eviscerate them all with one single clause. In fact, the Scotus in many other instances, has clearly stated that an interpretation of this kind is illegitimate, yet overall we see them serving the interest of their sphere, which is a part of the federal government.

    The most flagrant example of this abuse of the famouse Roosevelt era farm production regulations, where people were even prevented from growing their own food, because doing so supposedly had an effect on interstate commerce, meaning however much was grwon for oneself would not be purchased in the open market, and COULD thus have an effect on interstate commerce.

    That is a totalitarion logic if there ever was one.
    And what was the outcome of this decision:
    Permitting the feds to destroy private property, and thus keeping production off the market, which is a clear hindrance to interstate commerce, and was hurtful for so many people.

    John Steinbeck did a great job of showing the evil outcome of that.

    Point is: your statement reflects the approach/legal thought today, but is nevertheless wrong, and just another perversion of the constitutional order implemented back when.

    Which brings back my point above about the impossiblity of keeping powerful systems pure and from being coopted…

    • Benjamin October 20, 2011, 8:47 pm

      Chris,

      I appreciate your taking the time to write out a detailed explanation, but… I’m just a simple man and it’s been 26 hours since I’ve had any sleep. Also just burned the midnight oil making a response to Marc, above.

      Just so you know, I’m not ignoring your efforts. I just have to read it again, later, but probably won’t make it back in time before the topic “expires”. Catch ya again some other time (I’m sure we’ll have the chance).

  • Marc October 20, 2011, 5:47 pm

    Benjamin, the public health concerns are B.S. Research by Dr. Ted Beals, MD, featured in the summer 2011 issue of the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation, found that you are 35,000 times more likely to get sick from other foods than you are from raw milk. Statistically, you’re more likely to get injured driving to a farm to pick up some raw milk than becoming ill from drinking it.

    Between 1999 and 2010, there was an average of only 42 cases of illness per year attributed to raw milk, and that includes both “confirmed” and “presumed” cases. Dr. Beals noted that “From the perspective of a national public health professional looking at an estimated total of 48 million foodborne illnesses each year [from all foods]… there is no rational justification to focus national attention on raw milk, which may be associated with an average of 42 illnesses maximum among the more than nine million people (about 0.0005 percent) who have chosen to drink milk in its fresh unprocessed form. … Consumption of any food has some risk of illness or adverse reaction. And the consequence of basing public policy on horrific personal experiences is that all foods will ultimately be banned, and we will not be able to participate in any activity.”

    Between 1990 and 2004, U.S. health authorities traced more than two-thirds of the 168 disease outbreaks attributed to dairy products to PASTEURIZED items. As for the fear of spreading of tuberculosis by milk, researchers found that over a period of five years, during which time 70 children belonging to a special organization received a pint of raw milk daily, only one case of the disease occurred. During a similar period when pasteurized milk had been given, 14 cases were reported.

    The dairy cows used to produce most of the pasteurized dairy sold in the United States are raised in deplorable conditions, which is why the milk has to be pasteurized in order to make it safe for human consumption — and even then it is not always successful. But high-quality raw dairy farmers in places like California (where raw milk is legal) have their own set of standards for raw milk for human consumption, in which farmers must meet or exceed pasteurized milk standards, without pasteurizing.

    The conventional dairy industry, realizing that increasing numbers of consumers are recognizing the safety and health benefits of raw milk, try to make sure that raw milk sales cannot expand. Their business depends on pasteurization, so they employ lobbyists to persuade government agencies to keep raw milk bans in full force. And that is why you see armed raids taking place on farms and organic co-ops.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 6:29 pm

      Marc, Aren’t you just saying that commerce has gotten too big, and too corporate? That people have become totally dependant upon others, instead of making sure the farmer who produces his milk is honest and moral and local. Hasn’t the current government encouraged interstate commerce in order to gain police powers that were never invisioned?

    • Marc October 20, 2011, 8:10 pm

      Steve, yes, our health and safety concerns are being manipulated by corporations to protect their own interests, rather than legitimate health and safety matters. Let the states, per the 10th Amendment, regulate for their own health and safety interests as their citizens feel appropriate. There are, of course, some limited examples where the feds probably are the proper entity to deal with a health or safety matter (e.g., pollution that is emitted in one state/region and has its negative impact in another, such as the smokestack emissions from the midwest that produced acid rain in the northeast).

    • Benjamin October 20, 2011, 8:26 pm

      Marc,

      “Benjamin, the public health concerns are B.S. Research by Dr. Ted Beals, MD, featured in the summer 2011 issue of the quarterly journal of the Weston A. Price Foundation, found that you are 35,000 times more likely to get sick from other foods than you are from raw milk. Statistically, you’re more likely to get injured driving to a farm to pick up some raw milk than becoming ill from drinking it. ”

      Ah, so all the hysteria can be chalked up to one man playing shill. When isn’t it, though? Anyway, you’re safer. For now…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tuberculosis_world_map_-_DALY_-_WHO2004.svg

      That’s a TB map. Allow supply and demand of raw milk to scale up, and we’ll see the U.S. go from yellow to orange, and perhaps from orange to red. But why? TB can’t happen today and raw milk is just perfect and always will be, right?

      It’s concerning that so many are so out of touch with nature that they lack the ability to distinguish today from yesterday, and today from tomorrow. If raw milk consumption isn’t regulated in some way, then we’re going to see some changes that will drive TB right back into the endemic status that we’ve only (fairly) recently gotten out of…

      1) More use of antibiotics, for people and herds alike. This is of course a good idea, since antibiotic resistence is already a well-known and persistent problem that wouldn’t get any better with increased use of them.

      2) More reliance on vaccinations, which anarchists already figure can’t be forced on them.

      3) More reliance on (easily preventable) hospitalizations, which of course means rising costs. And we thought Obamacare was going to die a silent death! But when you don’t wanna bother with basic disease control… What other choice than contagion and death would we have?

      4) More herd culling. Food availability becomes more scarce. And this is especially good, since the diseases of old are back in circulation. Combine falling nutrional intake with rising disease rates, and buddy… Welcome to the f’ing third world.

      The risks do not go away with time. The same pathogens that were once commonplace in the food supply will resume their time-honored places if we let them.

      And that is what uncontrolled consumer “rights” will bring. This I know because not very many (if any) raw milk advocates are even willing to entertain the notion that their favored product can indeed be publicly harmful. So why would they worry themselves with such possibilities, let alone assist the public in bracing for what “will never come”?

      Lacking forsight, you’ve no contigency plans. You’re not even psychologically prepared to begin thinking of any. And that is all I need to see in order to draw sound conclusions. We shouldn’t be allowed total and unrestricted freedom. We should be careful and critical, because Life and Liberty necessarily come before consumerism. Else, we blindly lead ourselves to what amounts to germ warfare.

      And before anyone plays the “free market card” on me, yes, I do realize that a truly free market can do lots of good things. But it is not an ace at everything. The Founders and Framers knew this. That is why they gave us a government with limited powers.

      So how about we all consider that before focusing on only the Big Shill, Inc industry or placing mere consumer choice before Life and Liberty? If we do that, we’ll never lose.

    • Marc October 20, 2011, 10:51 pm

      Benjamin, I never said there cannot be any regulation of raw milk. To the contrary, I pointed out that where it is legal, the safety standards for raw milk are as high or higher than what is achieved through pasteurization. All I have said is that States should be free to regulate that area as their citizens see fit. The federal government should stay out of it, absent any discriminatory regulations between states (which has not been an issue). I would never support unregulated raw dairy since, as I already articulated, industrial dairy facilities are filthy and would surely produce many food-born pathogen outbreaks.

    • Benjamin October 21, 2011, 1:17 am

      Marc,

      I’m sorry if you feel that I’ve ignored your words. I didn’t. You’re just not seeing what I’m getting at. That, and I’ve been having some insomnia of late 🙂

      First off, cut the salesman crap. You’re doing your freedom of choice a great diservice by lying about pasteurization. Irony of ironies, if so many people weren’t “brainwashed” by the Big Milk, Inc “conspiracy” you wouldn’t have a safe product to consume. You wouldn’t want to choose it. As I pointed out, push the demand for raw nature high enough, and the traditional methods will fail to deliver a safe product. And bear in mind, those tradional methods are the product 1,000s of years of R&D. They aren’t going to just magically and easily be improved upon and, in all likelihood, mankind has tapped out all the potential to be found in them. Some day, I’m sure that pasteurization will reach its limits too, and thus man of the future will have to look for different ways.

      It’s much like farming vs hunting. We cannot go back to hunter-gatherer societies so long as so many people would have to do it. Hunting can’t sustain us, and so we need farming. But that doesn’t mean no one should hunt. Understand what I’m saying here?

      Delicate balances and capacities need to be respected. And lying sales pitches are not respect for the delicate balances and capacities. In lying, you’re acting as your own worst enemy. You’re tipping them, and it’s anything but in your favor.

      I’m on your side, but you don’t seem to be on your own side. Change that, and you’ll be free and stay free. Stubornly refuse to change that, and you’ve only yourself and your deceptive sales pitches to blame.

  • Seawolf October 20, 2011, 4:18 pm

    The comments have developed into a discussion of do we in a civil society need government regulations or not. Jeff Berwicks post on The Dollar Vigilante “Does the Economy need a Referee?” seems appropriate. It can be found here: http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1319118185.php

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 6:23 pm

      civil society = Roman Civil Law.
      Free Society = Original Common Law.

      civil rights = Roman Civil Law
      Covenant Endowments = Original Common Law

  • Benjamin October 20, 2011, 11:12 am

    I’ll start off by stating that I know that armed federal agents have no business in this matter. Enforcing the laws of Union belongs to the militias…

    Article I, section 8 cls 15: “To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions”

    However, regulations concerning interstate commerce belong the federal government. And concerning raw milk, regulation is most certainly a matter of the general defense and welfare. What I’m utterly terrified by is the notion that consumption of raw milk is, at worst, a personal risk. Raw milks are known to carry (historically and presently) pathogens which cause diseases that extend beyond individual consequences. TB, typhoid, brucellosis, diphtheria, Q-fever…

    If somone wants to risk cancer from smoking, I don’t care. If someone wants to risk heart disease from consuming transfat, I don’t care. Smoke pot and ruin your short-term memory? I don’t care. And neither should any level of government, as these things are truly personal matters. But raw milk cannot fall under that protection. Those pathogens are not the least bit concerned about individual life and liberty. Raw milks, therefore, are not ones unconditional right. They must be subject to public health measures of some sort. Those methods, in turn, have to consistently be able to control pathogen content.

    I do not care what method(s) is used. So long as it better and practically assures that milks (and other consumables) are free from dangerous pathogens, I’m for it. I’m for it because I know that we don’t have a right to declare germ warfare on each other.

    Past precedent is without meaning, here. Evolving knowledge has changed everything. Where we can effectively and practically act against the infringement of life and liberty, it must be done. Period. And while I fully realize that no measure is a perfect measure, having standards in place is none the less a substantial improvement over the alternative of not having them. And in that regard…

    I’m sure that a number of organic and other sanitation measures can reduce the amount of pathogens that wind up in the food supply. But it’s the number of conditions that must be controlled and the number of controlling components (people) that are the Achilles Heel of such measures. Humans are fallable, and only become more so the more we try to to micro-manage over macro processes. Organic dairys are no exception.

    In contrast, pasteurization is simple, effective, and consistently able to kill pathogens. And while there is the human element in that equation as well, fewer steps in the process reduces the chances of human error.

    So, bottom line: Milks in interstate commerce must be pasteurized. Until something better comes along, that is how it has to be. Anything less allows for the possibility of nation-wide outbreaks of diseases that are best left marginalized.

    This is not to say that raw dairy should be banned, intrastate. They just shouldn’t be allowed in interstate commerce until better than complex and inconsistent pathogen control is available to organic producers. Until that is possible, States can and should decide for themselves whether or not organic dairys are allowed within their borders, and to what extent if they do allow them. States should also have the responsibility of inspection and of keeping raw milks produced within their borders, within their borders. And if they fail in those responsibilities, then it would be time to call out the State militias, to enforce the laws of interstate commerce (as is proper).

  • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:24 am

    The comments above are very interesting, because a lot of you point out situation where certain regulations seem neccessary, and were implemented as a reaction to actual problems that caused harm, etc.

    The problem is that this seemingly quite reasonable regulation only serves to empower agencies, which then end upt being coopted, corrupted by exactly those they are meant to regulate.

    With the disastrous outcomes such as in the raw milk thing, or the drive to get rid of nutraceuticals/supplements/eviscerate the DSHEA via the FDA and Codex Alimentarius implementation, etc, GMOs, and on and on in the food sphere.

    That latter process of corruption has always, and will always take place, and that is the conundrum.
    You really DO have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there is no fix, while leaving the structure in place.

    In monetary terms, that is exactly the evil preached by Milton Friedman:
    he tried to provide a fix, seemingly scientifically based, while keeping the system in tact.
    Can’t be done.

    It all boils down to the old Ben Franklin saying (and it is probably not verbatim):
    He who chooses security over liberty deserves neither.

    In order to avoid those things Farmer Tom lists above, and he clearly does say he happily supports regs for that, general liberties must be sacrificed.

    As to the efficacy:
    just recently, we had the listeria outbreak on melons, did the regs work?
    The answer is always, well, they would have, but we have to do more, etc, etc.
    Every time that happens, more our liberty is sacrificed.
    Look at the last food safety bill, more power to FDA to restrict our choices.

    This, it works, but… mentality is Krugman pure:
    If 850b didn’t do it, then lets do 2T, and if that doesn’t work, up it still…..

    True, our world has become more complex, but if regulations as a principle of all area of life were truly a necessity (as the human condition that leads to Farmer Toms points has NOT changed), one has to wonder how we ever made it here, given that for most of our existence, there was nothing of this regulatory framework anywhere to be found.

    • Mark Uzick October 20, 2011, 10:57 am

      Rules and regulations are absolutely necessary to civilized order, but like all functions of government, they must be implemented voluntarily within the framework of a competitive and adaptable free market or they are simply the imposed tyranny of special interests, IE, protectionism.

      All the necessary functions of the state that are carried out by its criminally monopolistic agencies cannot be honored with the names “government” or “regulations” in any logical or morally legitimate sense of the terms until these agencies and their functions are, one by one, privatized.

      Where ever the illusion of government, law and regulations are imposed by the state no protections exist, only the anarchy of the powerful taking what it wants from the less powerful and sharing of the spoils among allies and supporters.

      I’m not against regulations; I want to legalize regulation where real regulation has been outlawed by state decree.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 6:20 pm

      Mark, Are you saying you want the Original Law, the Five Common Laws? The purpose of original law enforcement was to take complaint from an individual when the Peace and Dignity of Free States was violated by the act of one individual against another by a ‘crime’.

      Guess who has won by ignoring the Common Law? The state, yes?

  • Don October 20, 2011, 7:12 am

    Ron Paul is not the following:

    Definition: “Ineptocracy” (in-ept-oc-ra-cy)

    A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

  • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:08 am

    Seawolf:
    “The best he could do is a Jerry Ford. Veto every bill that crosses his desk.”

    I share your apprehension about implementing change in a Paul presidency.
    HOWEVER:
    While Ron Paul clearly has opposed the assumption of ever more power by the executive branch, in the “unitary presidency” mold, or its continuation under Obama, those real precedents have done one great thing:

    actually provide to a Paul presidency many tools to implement some of what you feel is impossible.

    Now, would it be wrong for someone who believes those powers to have been unconstitutionally seized to use those same powers to abolish them?
    Probably, but expedient, and a situation where the end would justify the means.

    Also, because the president no longer needs any Congressional action to put our troops anywhere or for whatever reason, not even a war powers resolution notification (see Obama and Libya), the same office does not need any authorization to take the troops out, or close foreign bases.
    This he can do as commander in chief.

    • Seawolf October 20, 2011, 11:02 am

      I Like your points Chris

    • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:53 pm

      Thanks.

      Let’s spin this one further:

      Ron Paul places Obama, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Hillary and the rest of the nomenklature on a list of non-combatants enemies, to be handled in the same fashion as Awlaki.

    • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 7:56 pm

      the above is not a suggestion of any action or incitement, to be sure

  • Chris T. October 20, 2011, 6:58 am

    Have ALL you Ron Paul supporters here donated yet during the 10/19-10/21 “money bomb”?

    see the official website, and blackthisout.com

    Rick:
    please excuse this post in case it is inappropriate politicizing, just trying to have people put their money where their mouth is.
    I did, btw.

  • gary l. October 20, 2011, 6:02 am

    For an informative read on mad cow disease, see Richard Rhodes book “Deadly Feasts”.

  • mava October 20, 2011, 12:28 am

    Gary,

    What I am advancing is the view that a regulation is an illusion. Before we go on to Glass Steagall Act, please, consider that there is a regulation that prohibits murders, drugs and theft. And what we see is exactly that they attempt to prohibit.

    This goes to the essence of human nature. You can educate against, punish for, but you can not prevent an individual from doing what it decided to do. Most widely known example of this is prohibition of firearms. Who can you count on having firearms? The criminals. Don’t the care about the law? Obviously not very much.

    Now, Glass Steagall Act. You are referring specifically to the “Q” part of it (1980) or the 1999 repeal of investment paragraph? This is because the main part of Glass Steagall Act is still with us, and actually is one of the main reasons we have all these problems with economy (FDIC).

    I am going to assume it is the 1999 repeal by Republicans that you have in mind (most often mentioned). Ok, so it re-allowed the investment banks to be in the commercial lending business. This, as it has been widely alleged, resulted in widespread of subprime mortgages and trench-trading of their notes on investment markets.

    Allegedly, this is what caused the current economic crisis.

    This story, however is not true. It is only a cover for the real reason the economy went down. It went down because the capital of American economy is exhausted by the government (taxation, both overt and covert – inflation of money supply), and because the business climate has become most unwelcoming (regulation), so that the entrepreneurs have left our shores for better pastures overseas.

    That this was coming was know long time ago, and was specifically noticed since 2000. The government took two actions to cover this up and redirect the blame: First was the repeal to create the scapegoat, and second was the 9/11 to create the pretext for much less liberal economic system that is now needed to sustain the government.

    I am not blaming you for taking the bait. Most did. I did as well, by believing the government story of 9/11 for first few months.

    This however takes me away from explaining how the Glass Steagall Act was not needed, and into explaining how it was irrelevant.

    Glass Steagall Act was and is not needed because:
    – If fraud was committed, it would be committed anyway, just by other means. These other means are known as “collusion”. The investment banks do not need to be in commercial lending business in order to successfully collude with commercial banks.
    – As far as the losses generated by investing in substandard vehicles, these losses should be the subject of worry for those who invested in them. Are we going to bail out anyone who invests in something he does not understand or who uses risk management approaches that are inappropriate for the vehicle?

    I did not buy any MBS, why? Because I considered these beyond my risk tolerance. I did not pay exuberant price for a house, why? Because, it was exuberant. I never considered housing an investment, why? Because, it is not an investment. I never operated on anyone brain, why? Because, irregardless of rewards possible, I am incompetent in brain surgery.

    Lastly, you bring up more regulations, such as “child labor abuse, employee unsanitary work conditions”. Nonsense. No one has to tolerate anything that he doesn’t approve of, except, when the government “regulates” those bad things, such as currently the government requires me to participate in obviously flawed health care system.

    Government is the only force that can force us into an abuse.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 3:02 am

      Mava, mistaking Law for ordinances appears as a major mistake.

      Liberty to kill is always at hand. mava possesses the Power of Killing, but that does not make it right unless it is self-defense.

      The question I have is, will you protect Carol’s right to be free of unjustified killing ‘murder’ by just, sure, and quick punishment?

      Carol spoke of the Common Law Crimes, all five. If each person would be responsible to the individual Rights of Man, and take individual responsibility there were be few problems that were not solved.

      The masses refuse to be responsible to the Common Law Crimes “ALL FIVE”.

      For the doubters, the Law says that capital punishment cannot issue without two witnesses. Witnesses lie – they die. Cures things pretty fast as long as mava will defend Carol’s unalienable Covenant Endowments !!!!

  • Paulie October 19, 2011, 10:52 pm

    Ron Paul
    Gary Johnson

    The Dream Ticket…our only hope, really…

    Otherwise…prepare for chaos. “Without chaos, there is no meaningful change.” (me)

  • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:39 pm

    Ron Paul can win with Positive Belief. All you negative speakers, you bring Paul down by your negativity.

  • Seawolf October 19, 2011, 9:15 pm

    Even if RP could get elected and he didn’t come down with a case of Lone Gunman Syndrome do you really believe he could end the Fed or switch off the alphabet soup agencies? Congress and their handlers are not going to let that happen without a fight. The best he could do is a Jerry Ford. Veto every bill that crosses his desk.
    The primary reason for agencies and rules and regulations is to provide revenue streams: campaign contributions for congress critters, fees and fines for agencies. profits for the TBTF and protection for the TCTP (too corrupt to prosecute).

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:37 pm

      Simple solution, Congress is engaged in High Treason. The executive make use of the Trading with the Enemy Act. Obama flies his flag saying you – get it – YOU are the enemy. Ignoring the truth does not change the truth. Start obeying the Law and Change will be in hand, real change. Obey democracy ordinances and you shall surely have the same.

      One problem – each and everyone of you will be required to defend Carol’s Covenant Endowments with your life, blood, and honor.

  • birgit October 19, 2011, 7:36 pm

    If we wake enough people , get RP elected AND they don’t ‘kennedy’ him a lot of Alphabet soup gangs will join the jobless ranks. The stimulus that this would be to this economy via formerly federally thefted funds , instead staying in people’s pockets ! They would find productive jobs fairly quick 🙂

  • John Jay October 19, 2011, 7:22 pm

    Rich,
    No, commercial truck drivers, pilots, MDs, trucking companies and airlines etc. can’t be depended upon to self regulate. Just look at the numerous fatal commercial aircraft crashes in Russia with jet pilots drinking vodka and letting their kid take control of the aircraft. We have not had any fatal commercial airliner crashes in the USA in years. But in the less regulated world of general aviation in the US, crashes everyday. T But those pilots generally only kill themselves, so lax regulation there is OK by me. Like skydivers or mountain climbers, it is non of my business what they do for fun. And I am glad California has commercial vehicle truck inspections. Plenty of guys will drive 70,000 lbs of truck with bad brakes, bad tires, and no sleep. Plenty of trucking companies will let them. You may not need a cop to be sure you stop at the red light. But enough people are lawless enough to be a real threat. I see drivers blow right through red lights everyday, and either laugh at me, or give me the finger as I give them a dirty look from my green light position. Same with pedestrians in crosswalks. About twice a week out here, some nut mows down and kills someone in a cross walk. Government has a place in public safety. There are plenty of areas where there is no public safety issue. The biggest ones that comes to mind to me are housing and education. Fannie/Freddie/FHA/VA/HUD etc. being shut down is not a threat to public safety. Neither is the end of “No child left behind”. Or light bulb and toliet flush regulations. As long as it doesn’t carry a potential threat to public safety, you can shut it all down.
    Wall Street bribing DC to legalize theft and fraud was enabled by a dumbed down electorate. I don’t have a solution to that problem. Anyway the biggest expense for airlines and trucking companies is probably fuel, not government regulations.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 7:27 pm

      John,

      you are still missing the fact that what you state is happening only because they can get away with their behavior. They get away with it because they are NEVER held personally accountable either because they shield themselves under a corporate cloak or because they have limited liability assurance. Big gov with Big Insurance companies are allowing these “persons” to avoid responsibility.

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:33 pm

      Right Carol, The price for driving a truck and killing someone is execution in the Public Square. It all stops there.

    • Farmer Tom October 20, 2011, 5:23 am

      Well said John. There are good reasons for certain forms of regulation and I would support them happily with my share of the tax.

      Aircraft and trucking are perfect examples as these industries when left to their own practices have had a bad habit of letting maintenance schedules fall behind when business declined. But it is not only the equipment. The workers themselves are pushed too hard at times and you often hear of drivers trying to work double shifts with no sleep at all.

      That is a major road hazard in my books.

      But what about medical services? Would we be happy if our Dentists re-used syringes when freezing us up? Would we not be concerned if hospitals recycled medical equipment that had been contaminated by previous patients in order to save a few bucks? Who then hell needs regulations then?

      How about X-rays? Do we care that the equipment must meet standards before being sold or that it must face regular inspections to ensure compliance with radiation emissions? Gee….I care about that.

      This is where I bail out of Carols boat. She has gone too far to the other side with her argument that “all” tax is wrong and wishes we could just live in a world where everybody took care of his own business and Government did not exist to bother us. Forget law, lets all go back to living under Hammurabi and the 242 simple rules in his codex. We will be fine (won’t we?).

      Sorry Carol, but we live in an organized technology rich society that does need some regulation to function smoothly. If you want to go tax free and live with all the hazards associated with that kind of experiment I can assure you that there are countries in Africa that will meet your needs.

      You know, places with no street signs, no lighting, limited policing, no fire protection, no addresses on buildings for the mail, no mail delivery…..etc etc, etc. It is called being impoverished if you did not know.

      So you see, I do appreciate road rules and I respect traffic stops because they are there for safety reasons. Generally, they exist for everyones benefit. Sadly, the world is full of irresponsible idiots and that is why we have rules for them to learn and guide their behavior.

      When the idiots screw up we penalize them. Good for us.

      So we regulate dangerous industry too. It is why we have “safe rooms” in most modern mines for example. These underground facilities are meant to preserve life should the unthinkable cave-in or underground explosion take place. Yes, that is a part of mine regulation in more advanced nations.

      I think what is really problematic though is the conflicting regulations between cities and States. There are barriers to inter-state trade, differences in tax authorities, rules and inspection regimens as just a few examples that are just damn silly. Consistency would help in many cases to ease the amount of red tape and inefficiency.

      If these could be brought in line with one another in a more seamless way we would really be getting somewhere. Costs would decline and business would have a better chance of growing and competing. Thinning out the regulatory process is a good thing in my books.

      There are places in this world where revisions are being undertaken in a serious way to reduce the burden. Some people thankfully do agree that eliminating overlap in the law is a valid process. Hell, some even argue we should pare back the excess of rules by simply eliminating the surplus and redundant words and I can agree with that.

      We are all living in a nightmare of rules that has gone too far and become overly oppressive, even anti business. As John has suggested though I do support those that are there to protect our health and well being.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 6:15 pm

      Farmer, Africa is your country of rules and regulations from a King. The untied States of America is destroyed by not obeying the five Common Law crimes, and complaint by individual against individual. Hit the nail on the head Farmer instead of using the nail to hit the hammer.

      Taxation in a Free Republic comes from taxing commerce – there is no need for any other form of taxation. We did so well under that system that the U.S. could not spend all of the money.

  • Buster October 19, 2011, 5:40 pm

    Just a note to add here..
    I can’t remember the details, but there was a strong argument presented by some researchers that Mad Cow disease was not caused by anything such as feeding sheep carcasses to cattle, as was put forward by the government agencies. Apparently there appeared to be conclusive evidence that the culprit was likely a chemical sprayed down the spines of the cattle to protect from the weevil fly.
    Faced with a massive multi billion dollar damages claim the corporate powers just got their buddies in the relevant departments of government & media to sing the right tune so the taxpayer ended up footing the bill.
    A timely example of how government is compromised by the powers that be at the expense of the populous.

  • Carol October 19, 2011, 3:55 pm

    Thanks Rick for address food freedom (or lack thereof) and very important discussion needs to take place in this country about these issues and soon before we all die of malnourishment (I know that is the goal but wake up).

    One slight correction though Rick, I think it is MORE the FDA that is destroying our rights to clean foods, raw milk, supplements, etc BUT the USDA is certainly helping.

    I just came across an article about people standing up for their rights to drink raw milk >>http://www.naturalnews.com/033904_raw_milk_Freedom_Riders.html

    Check it out.

    • fallingman October 19, 2011, 5:01 pm

      My sentiments and thoughts exactly Carole.

      You’re doing a real public service here Rick. Thank you.

      Nothing is more important than food. And yes, Carole, the FDA is the main enemy. Well noted.

    • Farmer Tom October 19, 2011, 5:17 pm

      Despite the widespread dislike over excessive regulation of the farm industry, including such issues as the right to access raw milk, it does periodically result in positive outcomes.

      Cheese is a perfect example of this. Over the past couple decades and partly as a result of bovine encephalitis, Mad Cows and other issues, European imports of dairy products have been significantly reduced to North America.

      As a result we have a flourishing cheese industry that was hardly even a twinkle in anyones eye 30 years back. Amazingly, it has seen continued growth and expansion every year for the last ten running and it is very profitable. Nor is it showing signs of slowing down as production is reaching out to export markets in a big way.

      That is how import restrictions became the prime impetus behind nurturing a home grown Cheese processing industry which in turn supports our dairy and cattlemen. And that is partly why the US is now the worlds single biggest cheese maker, meeting up to a third a global demand each year. Who knew, huh?

      What really appeals to me most though is the rise of so many small artisan producers who have come on stream recently and are producing small batches of amazing product mixed with herbs spices and vegetables (yum yum). You can, incidentally, access raw milk directly from the farm and remain within the law if you are a Cheese maker. This is because the processes of both pasteurization and homogenization can interfere with traditional cheese making recipes.

      So there you go. You want raw milk? Then start a little cheese making business and you will be off to the races. And why not join the party…between 1990 and 2003, US cheese exports quadrupled. Hell yes, it performed better than high tech and made money even while the Dot.com bubble burst an artery.

      All we need now is a Cheese ETF.

    • Larry D October 19, 2011, 6:32 pm

      Tom,
      A visit to the better grocers in my town reveals a huge cheese section with European varieties I never knew from 30 years ago, next to the American ones.

      The same cheese section has a placard that states Canadian and European cheeses are free from USDA-approved bovine growth hormone.

      To credit the boom in artisan cheese production to import restrictions is a specious argument at best. A similarity exists in the brewing world, that of craft beers brewed in regional and microbreweries across the country, and of imported beers from every corner of the globe showing up on US shelves. Add the organic food industry and farmer’s markets to this mix, as well.

      What has driven these trends is that people have rediscovered food with taste, unlike processed Velveeta in boxes and whatever pale fizz is pumped out in tank-car quantities by Anheuser-Busch.

  • mava October 19, 2011, 3:54 pm

    gary,

    So, who do you suppose cuts all those tax breaks? You think GS does that, BofA, or is it the government?

    Who prints the bailout money? You think FED is a privately owned bank? Do you also believe in Santa Claus?

    All government is 100% waste. Sadly, people are violent and thievery, and this is why we waste money on government to get the job of guarding us from each other done. And today, the government does everything else but that.

    Regulation? You believe in regulation? Give me one example of regulation that is not the original task of government, and I will show you that it doesn’t work and is not needed. Just one, – I don’t have all day.

    • gary leibowitz October 19, 2011, 5:47 pm

      “Regulation? You believe in regulation? Give me one example of regulation that is not the original task of government, and I will show you that it doesn’t work and is not needed. Just one, – I don’t have all day.”

      Glass Steagall Act.

      My point is not that their is big government and big waste. My point is that deregulation is not the answer. In fact it is the cause of all our ills.

      Corruption and power usually get out of control be allowing the people in charge to do away with restrictions.

      Are you suggesting that govenment interfered with free enterprise by placing laws to prevent child labor abuse, employee unsanitary work conditions, etc…

      My point with the current government agencies that are there only to protect citizens from big business, such as the EPA, it has been stripped of all its power. If all the government agencies were funded like the EPA we would have trillions in our coffers.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 6:25 pm

      Re “deregulation is not the answer. In fact it is the cause of all our ills.”

      As someone who repeatedly suffered too much government regulation and interference on my life, I am inclined to think the opposite.

      I do not need an armed cop to make me stop at intersections and look both ways before proceeding.

      I did not need a family court to rob me of my daughter, dignity and net worth.

      We do not need a government that since Andrew Jackson was President and retired the national debt, grew many times faster than the economy and population.

      We do not need to fund 950 foreign US military bases with simultaneous overt or covert US wars in Afghanistan, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Mexico, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria that do not defend life, liberty and prosperity, but quite the opposite…

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:29 pm

      Ya mava – the obligation that you defend Carol’s absolute Covenant Endowments – do that and everything changes for GOOD.

  • John Jay October 19, 2011, 3:52 pm

    Rich,
    I did not want to go agency by agency and create a kill list. That would take a thousand pages.
    Gevernment has a public safety function is what I meant.
    I just cited a few examples where I feel interstate regulation is needed. Do you want thousands of jetliners flying at 550 mph to just hope to avoid each other in clouds and darkness? And jet pilots to have no licensing process? I was involved in interstate trucking my entire working career. Believe me, you do not want tractor trailers with bald tires, no brakes and a sleepy driver on the road with you. Of course the TSA etc. are too much. But you need some oversight where there are public safety concerns. That would still leave a greatly reduced Federal government. Stopping at red lights and stop signs does not make me a government bootlicker. Education, Energy, Commerce, there are lots of areas that are not a public safety issue. I can’t list them all. Just offer a general principle of public safety as a guideline.

    Gary,
    I think the issue is that the big money has been writing the tax code for decades. I don’t know about how to create a fair individual tax. But for giant corporations the answer is to disconnect their taxes from manipulated profits/losses. Their tax should be fee based, and a cost of business just like heat, light, and power. If an individual is running his life at a loss, he still is liable for taxes, and my deductions have been eroded away to nothing. But before you can reform taxes you need to shrink government to its smallest possible size to keep taxes as small as possible. A big, complex task.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 4:01 pm

      John,
      if we really had a small government and got rid of “interest” on public debt that the fed has hoisted on society the tax code and all income taxes could go away. So there would be no need for anyone’s “fair share” (all direct taxes are theft). I hate hearing people spout off about fair taxes because there is no such thing if it is direct (even if it is apportioned) it is theft.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 6:10 pm

      Hi John

      Think drivers/pilots, passengers and competitive companies value their assets, income and lives enough to create their own safety systems?

      How did man ever manage to evolve and prosper without government regulation?

      Think corrupt banks and crooked corporations ever used government regulations to eliminate competition and fair trade at employee taxpayer expense, creating $6 T in upside down mortgages at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, FrankenFoods and drugs and substandard Mexican trucks into USA with Fast and Furious guns out?

      Why haven’t there been any convictions of the major Wall Street Investment Bank CEOs that created and imploded derivatives at trillions of dollars of taxpayer expense so far with more to come as the debt bomb monster explodes and repossesses middle class America.

      Why haven’t Monsanto execs gone to jail for Aspartame and GMO soft-kill foods?

      Good thing people can still vote with their brains, feet and money…

  • gary leibowitz October 19, 2011, 3:27 pm

    Deregulate? I thought the whole housing implosion was a result of deregulation. Guess I was wrong. Didn’t Greenspan make some comment like “I thought the industry would regulate itself. “ I suppose we should get rid of all unions, which happen to mass along those government agency jobs.

    You can find examples of abuse and waste in every single job, institution, government agency. How about the much needed but already disbanded EPA. Who needs them anyway? They only cause loss of profits for American industry.

    So basically the idea of gutting government workers with pensions will solve our problem. I do wonder how people can ignore the fact that the rich have never enjoyed such wealth as they do now. How not one single person is talking about stopping the ONE TRILLION per year tax breaks to the top 5 percent. I find it so outrageous. I guess it’s like the 10,000 pound gorilla in the room. The only response I get concerning this issue is that 250,000 is not a lot of money. Yes it is compared to people that are struggling to make ends meet. How about a benchmark of 1 million dollars earned in a year? If you were to use that as the starting point for disbanding the tax break would anyone here accept that? Did you know that most of the trillion per year break goes to the millionaires?

    Does anyone really think that the problem we have is too much government? If we had too much government than how in the world could some genius from Goldman Sachs come up with a scheme that would take down financial institutions, insurance companies, municipalities, foreign governments and manage to profit from it?

    Yes there is waste in government. Yes something should be done about it. Disbanding something that needs fixing isn’t exactly what I had in mind.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 3:40 pm

      “Does anyone really think that the problem we have is too much government? If we had too much government than how in the world could some genius from Goldman Sachs come up with a scheme that would take down financial institutions, insurance companies, municipalities, foreign governments and manage to profit from it?’

      Absolutely there is too much government. The reason you are seeing the things you see (they do exist) is because BIG GOVERNMENT is facilitating these things so that they CAN happen. If Big Government was not there these things could not happen.

    • Larry D October 19, 2011, 4:39 pm

      Read “Reckless Endangerment” by Morgenson and Rosner to see how the housing implosion was a result of corruption between really big government and the really big players who milk the system for profit.

      Psst: check out http://www.epa.gov
      I guess the folks that work for the EPA aren’t aware that it has been disbanded. 🙂

    • fallingman October 19, 2011, 4:56 pm

      Read DG’s comments above. It can’t be said much better than that.

      Look, you’re right…in a a way. Rubin, Summers, and the Gramms…Phil & Wendy…government officials and a senator (2 Democrats and 2Republicans) did the dirty work to make sure that the derivatives markets went unregulated for the benefit of the Wall Street cabal.

      That was your precious government at work, doing what it does best…favoring certain interests over others. The rest of us have to follow their rules or get sanctioned. We have to live with the consequences of our decisions. Not so the insider elite. Not so the bankers. They got to do absolutely anything they wanted to do in the derivatives arena

      Free market, right? Well, you might think so, until you see the backside of the deal. That’s the critical element here.

      When it all came apart, your government bailed them out. Without the clear and present risk of failure and bankruptcy to “regulate” behavior, there is no real regulation. There are only rules that can be made to apply to some and not others.

      It becomes a rigged game of heads they win…tails they don’t lose, or at least they don’t get wiped out as they should have and WOULD HAVE in a free market. Goldman would be gone in a free market. Just contemplate that pleasant thought for a moment.

      That’s the reality of how it works Gary. It’s naive to think that government will be populated by alter boys who will be able to first divine just the right regulations and then apply the rules equally to all.

      Government is evil. It’s brute force prettied up to make it acceptable to members of the public who don’t like to think of themselves as accessories to thuggery and violence. The only question is whether parts of it are necessary.

      The anarchists would say no. The minarchists, such as Jefferson, would say yes. But the monstrosity we have today that PRETENDS to protect us, but does exactly the opposite….lord have mercy, it needs to be euthanized.

      Get on board Gary. We could could use a converted statist.

    • mikeck October 19, 2011, 5:01 pm

      Yeah, we can’t have the people earning the money and creating the jobs keep what is theirs…much better to use it to fund jackbooted thugs.

    • Rick Ackerman October 19, 2011, 11:11 pm

      So, we don’t have too much government in our lives? I welcome dissenting opinion here, Gary, but you’ve skewed so far to the left on this one that you’ve out-Krugmanned Krugman. Concerning deregulation and the housing collapse, the two are unrelated. The borrowing binge that brought on the collapse was driven by insatiable demand from big investors for triple-A paper at the long end of the yield curve. The ratings agencies acceded, but only as a matter of convention, not regulation, since feather merchant math “proved” there was almost no default risk in bundled mortgage tranches.

      You could also argue that Barney Frank-driven re-regulation, impelled in part by Government meddling into supposed redlining, forced housing money down the throats of many who couldn’t afford it. But the larger crisis itself was all but ordained by regulations that were written by the mortgage lenders themselves. By implying, as you do, that Frank et al. could have written “better” regulations is where you separate yourself from 95% of those who post here. We all think that a free market could have done a much better job than all of the half-assed and egregious-assed rules that you would appear to favor. If one simple convention had been followed — i.e., if banks that originated the mortgage loans had kept 20% to 30% of those loans on their books — the housing crash never would have occurred. The fact that it did occur is testimony to the pointlessness of the 10,000 pages of rules that were on the books when the market collapsed.

    • DG October 20, 2011, 3:31 am

      I was thinking you were sarcastic….but…
      please consider that Goldman has key players ALL over the government. The deregulation vs regulation argument is pointless.
      We need very basic regulation. That’s kinda the idea of the constitution. The housing boom would have never happened had interest rates been controlled by a free, knowledgeable market. Liar loans would have never happened if banks actually had to eat the bad loans…..The regulations that protect the banks caused the problem….
      Phil Gramm may seem like a smart guy, but his is an idiot. He, Rubin, Summers, and Greenspan all ushered in an abortion of financial nonsense when they repealed Glass Steagall and introduced the Commodity Modernization Act.
      Again. They gave folks the idea that there was regulation, and then wrote the exemptions….kinda like Obamacare……..like telling folks the speed limit is 55 when actually it is 250….
      there are NO free markets. There is no capitalism. Hasn’t been for decades.

  • Marc October 19, 2011, 3:05 pm

    I voted for Ron Paul in the 2008 primary, and I will again next year, but I recognize reality: he has absolutely no chance of winning the nomination unless the finanacial implosion that lies in our future occurs before the primaries. Even then, I ‘d say he’s still a long shot, but at least he’d have a legitimate chance in an evnvironment where the sheeple (in both parties) are confronted with reality. That reality being that our bloated federal beauracracy and broad entitlement programs hinge upon our fiat currency and fractional reserve banking system, and that system is–and always will be–a terminal Ponzi scheme.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 5:54 pm

      For somebody boycotted by corporate monopoly media, look who got the lion share of applause, cheers and whose hand the candidates in last night’s Vegas debate rushed to shake after the debate:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V19-uLzz8k4 12:21

  • Amei October 19, 2011, 3:05 pm

    I agree that for the most part the USDA needs to go as well. The only candidate that proposes fiscal responsibility is Dr. Paul, but his message has a difficult time seeing the light of day.

    Ron Paul supporters are raising money today in a Money Bomb titled “Black This Out” in an effort to show how the MSM is trying to suppress his message.

  • charles October 19, 2011, 2:48 pm

    Long live Ron Paul! Unfortunately, do you really think that the “powers that be” would allow that to happen? Not if he’s elected!
    I submit the Kennedy’s!!!

  • John Jay October 19, 2011, 2:35 pm

    I agree about Ron Paul, Rick. If nothing eles, he might make the average Joe and Jane start to question why we need all these giant Federal government agencies that view citizens as the enemy and do nothing useful.
    We all agree we need the FAA and laws regarding interstate trucking etc. Those are areas of legitimate concern to us all. Other than their role in nuclear power oversight, the Department of Energy has been a failure.
    Ron Paul’s problem is the “he’s a nut” view taken by many shallow thinking citizens. What he is, is the main chance for change. There is no one else talking about our begining to shut down the Federal government.
    So we have the OWS movement which is leaderless outrage, and Ron Paul with a plan to start to shrink the Federal government. That is start, lets see where it takes us. But I know the Perry/Romney/Cain battle of the millionaires has no chance of producing any real change for Joe six pack. How many times does Lucy have to hold the football for Charlie Brown only to pull it away at the last second before Charlie Brown gets wise? In my lifetime we’ve gone from “Father Knows Best” to “Al Bundy” to “My name is Earl” lifestyles. If the average citizen does not get behind someone like Ron Paul, next stop for them is the “Deliverance” lifstyle.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 3:08 pm

      JJ, I do not agree we need the ATC, EPA, FAA, FHWA, FMSCA, ICC, NTSB, TSA, USDOT, all of which overregulate and overtax transportation, adding no value that free choice markets could not.

      Most citizens have no idea how many unproductive government agencies control transportation for the monopoly insiders that run and staff them with a revolving doors that serve their interests, not their customers, destroying their industries.

      Do we really need TSA to charge, ionize and grope passengers while bankrupting airlines for government acquisition and control? Does anyone feel safer or more prosperous as a result of TSA and all these agencies doing things corporations and their customers with common sense can do for themselves?

      Have you ever noticed how traffic flows faster and smoother when traffic cops are not directing it?…

  • Steve October 19, 2011, 2:03 pm

    Yes, no rule of rule means that predators rise to the top. Half-assed laws like current financial regualtion let weasels rise tothe top. WROL means you can put up signs saying “no blacks, Jews, Irish allowed”. “Go to stores that allow blacks, etc., and the others stores will go out of business” say the free marketers.” Didn’t work in Nazi Germany. People need intelligent, consensually-validated regulation administered by impartial, non-lobbied civil servants.

    Ron Paul is against abortion;unborn cells have greater rights than living women, apparently. His only good talking points are end the Fed and End the wars. Otherwise, a wing nut.

    • Michael October 19, 2011, 8:23 pm

      Steve,
      Unfortunatly you missing the point completely.
      Ron Paul is against TAXPAYER FUNDED abortion. Isn’t this insane and immoral to take YOUR money and to kill the fetus? That basically makes people who are against abortions paying to perform one. The point is that Ferral Guberment should not be in the business of abortion anyway. It is the State issue. Or your and your doctor issue.

      Additionally, if we get a president, who would just stop the wars and end the FED, I think that we ourself can easily resolve all other problems. Unfortunatly, for as long as the banksters and their MSM minions brainwashing the sheeple(like let’s find one thing that I disagree with Ron Paul and call him names. Or let’s not give him any time on the debate at totally black out him) we will get another 4 years of the teleprompter in the white house. Unless you think that RomneyCare is any better… LOL

      So don’t blame me when they start yet another war so the banksters and Haliburtons can make another trillion. I vote Ron Paul and will NEVER vote for the rest of the paid minions.

    • Robert October 19, 2011, 9:00 pm

      “unborn cells have greater rights than living women apparently”

      Hmmm, perhaps not greater rights… perhaps only “equal” rights?

      Consider that the abortion supporter’s mantra is often that “a woman has the right to do as she wishes with her body”… which is absolutely and positively true… unless she is using her body as a masturbation proxy for men in the interest of earning personal income, which is illegal, right?

      Also, consider that the Mosaic law basically suggests that “you make your choices, and you take your chances…” suggesting that pregnancy is a normal, natural consequence of a particular decision. (I’ll leave it to you to decide if pregnancy is a negative or positive consequence)…

      I’ll also point out that there is no other (known) species that practices voluntary abortion, so the argument that the mosaic law allows different “conditional logic” to apply to humans versus other animals would be considered a weak position by me.

      Any woman who does not WANT to be pregnant is in full control of the situation- there is one perfectly and failsafe way not to be pregnant, but by the Mosaic law abortion can not be a viable proxy.

      Now, after all that claptrap- If the real issue is personal rights and liberty, then every woman who has the right to an abortion must also grant to any/every doctor a personal right of equal weighting to choose whether or or not he/she is willing to perform the procedure… yes?

      Since our brains can not correctly and absolutely decipher whether abortion is murder in God’s eye, the best we can do is embrace the rule of contract law, the essence of which is simply:

      “I can not compel you to do that which is against your will simply because it serves my best interest”

      Hence- any woman wishing to have an abortion, matched with a doctor willing to perfom it, should yield a contract that does not violate human law. At such point, it is purely between them, and their creator, as to whether or not it violates the Mosaic law.

      Since I have known women who have had abortions, and NONE of them came out of the procedure without some feeling (however mild) of remorse, melancholy, and/or outright regret, I can assume (without the benefit of God’s proof) that the act is violative of the Mosaic law.

      The conscience speaks to us loudly, yes…?

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:48 pm

      Steve, murder is murder and has been murder. The 14th amendment is assent to high treason. The 14th provides nothing until the word “. . .born. . .” and is a simple political choice to engage in outlawry. When the egg and sperm join and divide the baby has the Right of Inheritance, always has, always will.

      Everyone is at Liberty to commit murder. What changed is that mobocracy agreed not to prosecute the crime because there is no civil power in democracy for the Child that has not broken the symbiotic relationship of the semi-permeable membrane.

      I can biologically show that the egg is expelled from the mother via an explosion at the ovary, and exists exterior of the body of the alleged mother. But, I’m guessing the truth does not interest ?

    • Robert October 20, 2011, 1:42 am

      “I can biologically show that the egg is expelled from the mother via an explosion at the ovary, and exists exterior of the body of the alleged mother. But, I’m guessing the truth does not interest ?”

      Oh, the truth absolutely interests me… But I don’t trust you to understand the truth as God (or whatever other Universal creator you choose) understands it, so the best you can do is to elaborate on how the interior of a Woman’s uterus is exterior to her body… So, go ahead- lay it on me; but please be sure to simultaneously explain how all that amnionic fluid defies gravity.

      But then again, if your argument devolves down the path of “the baby has its own blood supply and is a parasite living off the mother’s system” then save your breath- I’ve heard it all before, and again, there is no (known) species of animal that voluntarily infects itself with parasites so that it can then voluntarily terminate them.

      “Everyone is at Liberty to commit murder. What changed is that mobocracy agreed not to prosecute the crime because there is no civil power in democracy for the Child ”

      -We agree on that point.

      Go ahead, lay it on me.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 2:49 am

      Robert, No parasite tripe Robert. Procreation is a choice. That the child and mother live symbiotic is a fact. That the mother biologically desires the child is fact. Because it seems so very important to your premise. I’ll address the cork in the bottle below since that seems to be of importance to you.

      First, dissect a uterus like you were in biology class. The urethra (pee tube) ends in a closed circuit kidney(s). The uterus ends at a closed circuit ovary. No matter how hard one tries one cannot reach the heart, lungs, liver, or any other internal organ via the uterus/ovary without cutting the exterior barrier. That is cutting through the uterus to reach the liver. (from outside to inside) One cannot reach the inside of the body without cutting a hole through the ovary just like the doctor cuts a hole your chest to reach your heart. Or, the doc cuts a hold through your belly button to reach your liver. Or, a doctor cuts a hole to cut out a uterus.

      A cork of mucus forms at the cervical, it dissolves during labor. I’ll explain the cork in simple terms below.

      Imagine your armpit if you will. Now imagine a gland called an ovary sitting just inside a pore of the skin in your armpit. The gland forms a blister, inside which is an egg. The blister explodes expelling the egg. [no different than a blister on your hand] Your armpit is shaped a bit like a pear with the small end down. Once the egg explodes to the outside of the skin it meets sperm. As soon as the egg and sperm combine to make a living thing, with complete DNA, a cork forms in the small end of the pear making a chamber. The living Being creates a sack, or bag if you will to grow in which expands out to fill the pear shaped armpit. The umbilical cord is connected to the sack where semi-perm membranes allow the exchange of ‘things’.

      As soon as it is time to leave, the cork softens and falls out. The living bag the Thing made comes out too and ruptures spilling the fluids the Thing made inside its own sack. The thing comes out in ‘birth’. The only thing the mother looses of her own is some blood from the disconnect of the semi-perm membrane (placenta).

      The mother certainly supplied things to her blood, but; the mothers blood never mixes with the new Things blood. This is no different than the Oxygen coming into a lung and transferring to the blood, and the CO2 leaving. The blood is never exposed directly. A membrane separates them.

      The science is true – I have done the dissection.
      A cork and a bottle with something growing inside.

    • Marc October 20, 2011, 5:18 pm

      Steve, you are simply wrong in stating “The uterus ends at a closed circuit ovary.” The fallopian tubes stretch from the uterus to the ovaries, but the ends of the fallopian tubes are open to the woman’s abdominal cavity. The feathery end of each fallopian tube (lined with fimbria) connects to the adjacent ovary by nothing more than a tiny muscular ligament called the fimbria ovarica. It serves only to keep the ovaries and tubes close to each other within the abdomial cavity — it does not play a role in the transport of the egg. Instead, millions of tiny cilia lining the fimbria and interior of the fallopian tubes beat in waves hundreds of times a second to catch the egg at ovulation and move it from the woman’s abdomial cavity, through the fallopian tube, and into to the uterine cavity. If it were not for the action of the cilia, many eggs would fail to even enter the fallopian tube, and would instead move aimlesly into the abdomial cavity where the woman’s body would break it down.

    • Steve October 20, 2011, 6:09 pm

      Marc, Robert needed over simplification to understand the bottle and the cork. All of the rest is B.S. to those who wish to murder children, who’s rights begin at quickening. Only since the 14th amendment, and the “All person’s born. . .” has abortion been legalized murder in assent not to prosecute the crime. Robert does not care about cilia, or any other issue about making a pocket watch. He only needed to know what time it is.

    • Robert October 20, 2011, 7:29 pm

      Thanks, but I already understood the biology….

      but Frankly Steve, I ‘m lost on your position vis-a-vis abortion.

      Your initial statement seemed condemning of Ron Paul because he seems to think that the rights of the mother are inferior to the rights of the unborn…

      then you go the other way and equate abortion with murder, but you defend the mother’s right to commit murder.

      My whole argument was that the mother DOES have the right to commit murder, but she can not COMPEL a doctor to “pull the gun’s trigger” on her behalf (and in violation of their own free will)…

      Honestly, I can’t see where we agree, and where we disagree on this topic.

      Ron Paul’s position is about DOCTOR’s rights, and the rights of the people NOT to be compelled to finance abortions using their tax money… How can anyone of good conscience not support this platform?

      Also- you statement “That the mother biologically desires the child is fact. ” is suspect.

      If all mothers desired their children, then abortion would not be such a common practice “in lieu of birth control” today, now would it?

    • Robert October 20, 2011, 7:36 pm

      oh jeez—

      I just got it. I fell into the “two Steves” trap.. 🙂

      Sorry, Steve Fair, for dragging you along as I originally argued with “black letter Steve” (as did you)

      But it was still a fun exchange.

      By the Mosaic Law- Murder is murder, and anyone who commits deserves the same fate.

  • Buster October 19, 2011, 2:03 pm

    Corporate Fascism-government run by corporations for their vested interests is what we have, not democracy & certainly not free market enterprise or anything resembling Capitalism. True Capitalism would have forced these murdering control freaks to do something productive for a living, fulfilling a need in society at a fair market rate. Instead they scheme up ways to hinder every human activity while giving their own ‘operations’ an unfair advantage. If they don’t manage to swindle what they want (which is to own & control everything & everybody on Earth, by the way) then they simply take the gloves off & take it by force, using the military or the police force.
    To limit the power of government & it’s vestiges is the only chance you have of peace & prosperity. This can only be done if the control of the money supply is first taken from them. The Banksters are the first target, as Ron Paul well knows, the rest will follow.
    Unfortunately history doesn’t give us much hope. How this ends is either the Elitists wiping out the memory when critical mass of realisation is reached, ie with wars or ‘witch hunts’, or with another lot of scum rising to the top again & the record being replayed over & over.
    The war of independence followed by the civil war & the constitution didn’t stop them & neither can Ron Paul, unfortunately. Organised corruption will always trump disorganised democracy, & the population’s complacency & willingness to pass over their responsibilities to someone more greedy & cunning is inevitable.
    Look! The Banksters, The Corporations, The Media/Organised Religion & the Government are One.
    This is why the people suffer with no real voice.
    It is a monopoly of power & control with no free market competition to give it the need to be efficient & mindful of the needs or good of man. It is an abomination against the needs of society. It allows the most destructive members of society ruinous wealth, whilst the hardworking & productive struggle to even survive.
    It gives free pass to our criminal masters whilst criminalising the population for everyday activity.
    They may as well introduce a licence registration to breath air. If your name’s not on their bail out list then kindly refrain from breathing!

    • fallingman October 19, 2011, 4:15 pm

      Well said.

  • Phil C October 19, 2011, 2:02 pm

    Go Ron Paul!!
    Rick, I’m sure USDA is on a short list for likely the next year after. I agree with you, it should have been on the target for the first year though. USDA swat team are disgusting and wonder how these pigs are able to look at themselves in the mirror.
    If Ron Paul gets elected, there is actually a chance there will still be a country left standing – after quite a storm.
    Without him in the white house, all bets are off.

  • Andy B October 19, 2011, 1:54 pm

    Rick,
    Don’t forget that the US Forest Service is also part of the USDA. Forest management (for millions of acres) is probably a good thing.

    BTW: Glad you support the local food movement.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 2:56 pm

      Sorry AB. I live surrounded by national forests and the USFS is not a good thing, wearing sidearms, towing cars and arresting campers or visitors without permits for huge fines. At Lake Tahoe TRPA and USFS bureaucracies make life miserable for most locals, suing them for moving a rock, fining them for not cutting down trees on their property, blocking access, using taxpayer funds to enrich large landowners like Jack Dreyfus, letting USFS properties that could be viable community centers rot, burning out underbrush to stop forests from doing their thing, causing dieoff blamed on global warming, all the while with smug attitudes that they know better…

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:20 pm

      Right on Rich, The forest service has no authority except abuse of territorial powers by a treasonous congress.

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:22 pm

      Oh, and Andy B. It has only taken the Forest Service 100 years to totally destroy the Natural Balance in Oregon. Our woodlands are a natural disaster. Not only that but I cannot cut a single load of trees from my private property without the forest service’s permits and overbearing hand.

    • DG October 20, 2011, 3:21 am

      Forest Service? Give me a break. You are simply making the point of how ineffective the government is. It is a joke of proper management. The infestation of insects, destroying great timber, and hundreds of thousands of acres of tinder, caused by neglect, is nothing to be proud of regarding “management.” It is a joke and an abuse of a massive, national resources. The irony is that the Forest Service likely leaves a larger carbon footprint than the coal industry. Consider the biomass decay, forest fire smoke, and destruction of perfectly healthy c02 consuming trees….Do the math.

  • ankur October 19, 2011, 1:46 pm

    Ron Paul did introduce a bill to legalize the sale of raw milk.

    • Farmer Tom October 19, 2011, 4:38 pm

      He did?….I like him better already.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 5:32 pm

      Farmer,

      he also introduce legislation that would allow farmers to grow industrial hemp a+ wonderful product that was made illegal after the major corps force their agendas on the people through the help of congress.

  • NoOneDoesItAlone October 19, 2011, 1:12 pm

    Do those of you who believe that the market will take care of everything also believe it can take of murder, rape, theft, assault, selling/advertising of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs to children, reckless driving, voter fraud, sale of things known to be dangerous, infrastructure planning, implementation and maintenance, policing, fighting fires, and waging wars.

    No one, including me, agrees with all of the rules, yet we benefit greatly from having a society that has the rule of law. It is important to distinguish between rules that have a reasonable basis and corruption. The fact is that special interests have gained more and more control of the government and that situation is spiraling away from democracy and the promise of capitalism.

    The politics of the situation has caused increasing polarization of society, decided what questions will be publicly debated and then framed those questions.

    The extent to which merit determines the financial success of an individual is shrinking every day.

    We have created, through the latest credit expansion, an irreversible situation where deflation is practically certain, with a just as certain long period of lowered living standards. Instead of working together to come to a civil and possible answer, we are in a free-for-all where those remaining wealthy are in a zero-sum game fighting to maximize the value of their share.

    If you happen to feel strongly that we are going to have inflation, which I believe is not possible, it doesn’t matter, living standards are going down anyway.

    By the way, I have an inkling of the solution. Jubilee. The music stops now and everyone stays where they are. All consumer debt is forgiven (unless an individual feels compelled to pay anyway), that means mortgages, credit card debt, auto loans, student loans, everything. Effective for all such loans on the day of announcement (so that all subsequent loans are valid, and perhaps the profits on all loans going forward for some time are tax free in order to motivate lenders but perhaps borrowers are taxed on the proceeds of loans that are too high in proportion to their income). All counter-parties to the forgiven debt are also forgiven their related debts. Hardly fair but I believe this would solve the crisis and quickly. I haven’t heard any other solution that would actually work. Something less extreme (like only forgiving a portion of the debt or qualifying what can be forgiven might be good enough as long as sufficient debt was forgiven).

    • Buster October 19, 2011, 2:28 pm

      Solving the ‘Crisis’ is not on the name of the game, I’m afraid.
      Why make peace when war is so darned profitable?
      Why forgive the starving peasants their debts while the Elites are having a feast.

      “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”- Thomas Jefferson.) 3rd
      “The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People vs. The Banks.”
      – Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875

      There’s really nothing new under the sun. this game has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The solution is simple. Change the rules of the game to benefit productive activity instead of destructive ones.

      The only legitimate responsibility of governement is actually to issue justice. But that’s the last thing the powerful want to get issued.

    • Rich October 19, 2011, 2:47 pm

      Re “Do those of you who believe that the market will take care of everything also believe it can take of murder, rape, theft, assault, selling/advertising of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs to children, reckless driving, voter fraud, sale of things known to be dangerous, infrastructure planning, implementation and maintenance, policing, fighting fires, and waging wars.”

      Yes. Try reading Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations sometime, or Freeman from Foundation for Economic Education.

      Trusting people to make their own decisions works far better than in loco parentis authoritarianism or a police state.

      Most of the problems you cite are a result of government corruption disrupting the competitive free choice market and creating monopolies.

      One simple example is Prohibition, which made fortunes for a few bootleggers like Bronfman and Kennedy. Similar applies today to drug cartels Sinaloa and Los Zetas, laundering their products and profits through crooked law enforcement and banks.

      Try listening to infowars.com for a week.

      It might wake you up…

    • Mark Uzick October 19, 2011, 3:01 pm

      >>>”NoOneDoesItAlone October 19, 2011 at 1:12 pm

      Do those of you who believe that the market will take care of everything also believe it can take of murder, rape, theft, assault, selling/advertising of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs to children, reckless driving, voter fraud, sale of things known to be dangerous, infrastructure planning, implementation and maintenance, policing, fighting fires, and waging wars.”<<<

      The market doesn't guarantee a good, moral or an even in anyway acceptable outcome for dealing with the evils of the world; the market merely gives the people what they want or what they foolishly think they want.

      In the same way as the market can provide us with wholesome food, dietary supplements and medical care, it also can provide us with junk food, cigarettes and other harmful substances.

      Government itself is a collection of enterprises that cater to market demand; to the extent that the public demands legitimate government, we have a free and competitive market that can efficiently provide us with our needs for material things, services including security, protection, regional defense and courts through voluntary cooperation. To the extent that the public demands special privileges, freedom from responsibility, ideological/religious conformity, scapegoats, warfare and other forms of paternalism/authoritarianism, the market will give them the kind of government that would interfere with private contract which you are advocating.

      Governments, which are actually businesses and include private enterprises, cannot be better, more moral, or honest than the people they serve. The government of a society is a reflection of the character, in general, of its people.

      A condition of greater liberty, cooperation and prosperity will only come when there is sufficient market demand to justify its provision by political entrepreneurs and then only to the extent that consumers are enlightened enough to know what's in their interest. It requires an effective educational marketing campaign, like the success of any other product or service.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 3:29 pm

      Yes I absolutely believe a truly free market could very well take care of these things, well those things that really need to be taken care of that is.

      Let see your stated issues one by one:

      murder, rape, theft, assault – These are true common law crimes that could be handled by the sheriff and a true judicial court using a true jury of your peers. None of these things exist today as ALL courts are under the executive and are administrative only. The Judiciary act of 1789 (yes that long ago) did away with the judicial branch of gvnment. Juries also do not exist today even though it appears they still exist they no longer have the ability to judge the law so they are not really a jury but are only a group of advisers which the judges today can overrule. And Sheriffs have been co-oped and are no longer “peace officers” but are only code enforcement officers (black booted thugs).

      selling/advertising of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs to children – Ok lets say that is your list of what you consider “bad” but what if I disagree with that list? Why not add raw milk to that list? Why not add vitamin and mineral supplements to that list (they are trying to). Why not add anything else that you can dream up? Since I believe people have the right (since they own their own bodies) to ingest whatever they want to why should some busy-body look over my or my children’s shoulders to “regulate” what we ingest? Why should I, as a parent, NOT be responsible for my children? Oh because the State owns my children and knows what’s best for them you say? What if I want to allow my children to drink beer or wine when they are 10 years old like has been done in Germany and other European countries for centuries? Does some bureaucrat know what is better for me and my children than I do? Why should any company who makes products not have a right to advertise those products? Why should any company that makes and sells any products not be held accountable for any harm that their products cause to their customers? The answer to all of the above is in a FREE MARKET then the gvment gets out of the way and people are free to choose how to take care of themselves and companies are held accountable for any damage they cause people. This does not happen today because gvnment skews the market to favor those who pay for their services (big corporations) which is NOT the people.

      reckless driving – did the reckless driver actually cause any harm? If not has a crime been committed? If so should that “driver” not be held personally accountable for his damage? Could the sheriff and a true judicial court (which do not exist today as all courts are under the executive and are administrative only) handle these situation? I believe so.

      voter fraud – if voting was done in the open instead of in private could there be such a thing as “voter fraud”?

      sale of things known to be dangerous – see above. Your list is certainly different than my list, what makes your list “better” than mine?

      infrastructure planning, implementation and maintenance – why can’t these things be done by private companies where supply and demand dictate the prices and services made available?

      policing – I believe there is only a small need for sheriffs (peace officers) to handle true actual common law crimes where people are actually harmed. However, I see the possibility for this service could also be handled privately by the free market.

      fighting fires – just like police why can’t this service be handled by the free market and paid for by those who want that service? Is a service better if it is forced onto everyone at the point of a gun?

      and waging wars – well my belief is that murder is murder whether it is done by a corporation, an association, or a lone gunman. I am always and forever against any murder. Should “we” ever be attacked then we can individually protect ourselves and our property. What “country” would truly attempt to attack a nation where 300 million people had arms to defend themselves? Right – none!

    • Buster October 19, 2011, 3:53 pm

      Oh for a world where the government just got on with it’s real job Carol…….to issue justice based on common law. One where the only crimes are to commit injury or death to someone, to damage or steal another’s property, and to commit fraud.
      How eloquently simple & just life would be then. How free man would be to get on with creative pursuit. How peace & prosperity would surely follow the clear benefit of productive living.
      To issue justice is the only legitimate role of government, and yet it is everything it does not do.
      Everything it does do instead is what the free market should be doing alone.
      Unfortunately in such a world there is no easy profit for the crooks, the covetous, murdering & feckless scum who grab for power in whatever society or age they have lived in.

    • SB October 19, 2011, 4:01 pm

      For Carol,

      We still have the power to judge the laws if we sit in a jury…look up the fully informed jury association. It’s a step in the right direction. It’s not like you need anyone’s permission to decide to judge the law, regardless of what the court/judge says.

      For everyone else…I wouldn’t be too worried about the USDA…Ron Paul has introduced bills to allow raw milk to be sold 2 0r 3 times since 2007. I imagine they’ll go in round 2 if he becomes president.

    • Carol October 19, 2011, 4:31 pm

      SB “We still have the power to judge the laws if we sit in a jury…look up the fully informed jury association. ”

      I am aware of that organization but you are incorrect. Just because they jury knows about the right of nullification does not mean they can exercise that right because they do not have that right. The judge will overrule any such “judgment”.

    • JimK October 19, 2011, 4:50 pm

      The massive corruption at the FDA which has brought us the parade of deadly drugs, which despite $250M approval processes, somehow nobody knew that they kill and maim people until after they are approved. There are many, many FDA approved drugs that actually cause the disease they are supposed to treat. The conflicts of interest are profound at that agency and many others.

      If our court system worked, an average person would be able to prosecute a case when they were injured in the ways that these agencies are supposed to protect us from, too. Giving the agencies the ability to force, rather than simply ‘approval’ or ‘certification’ was a mistake. I don’t know the answer to the question of ‘how do you keep people from making ridiculous lawsuits’.

      But underlying it all is the granting of corporate status to anyone who wants it to begin with. Originally, this status was only granted if an entity demonstrated a public benefit – like building a dam or bridge – which wouldn’t happen if individuals were liable. Now, anybody can start a corporation, and it is simply a vehicle for doing reckless things and not being liable for them.

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:18 pm

      Carol, I’m not sure why I even came back to the forum. You are spot on leaving me with nothing to do.

  • Mark Uzick October 19, 2011, 10:55 am

    There’s no doubt that Paul’s list of agencies to ax is just a preliminary one; it’s only to show with what ease (other than the political effort required) a trillion could be cut off the federal budget. A lot more than a trillion can be cut.

    Horror stories from the USDA are but a small fraction of federal depredations.

    BTW: When Paul chooses a running mate, I hope he has the sense to choose someone at least as principled as himself (certainly not any of the current primary contenders, other than Johnson), or if he ever wins the presidency, I doubt he’d live very long.

  • Teddy October 19, 2011, 6:46 am

    I have voted Democrat in almost every presidential election. My sole interest is the Supreme Court justice nominees.
    But, anyway, if Ron Paul makes it on the ticket then I would have to say that it would be hard not to vote for the man. He’s the only guy in Washington who actually stands for something that I can stand behind.
    As for the haters who are gonna tell me that either the Democrat or the Republican Party stand for anything at all other than their own small self interest…….don’t waste your time.

    • Mark Uzick October 19, 2011, 11:07 am

      Please register as a Republican if the state where you live requires it in order for you to vote for Paul in the primary. You probably need to do it right away in order to qualify.

    • JimK October 19, 2011, 4:37 pm

      I was a long time Democrat (three generation!) and registered Republican just to vote for Ron Paul in the Primaries before. I see him as our only chance and that the difference between the two parties is no longer worth ‘lesser of two evils’ approach. I think Paul is a spoiler this time – despite the heavy handed and now even mocked on SNL attempts to side line him. When popular culture starts to parody something, that’s when a move is in the works – ‘change’ so to speak…

    • Robert October 19, 2011, 8:15 pm

      “When popular culture starts to parody something, that’s when a move is in the works – ‘change’ so to speak…”

      Ghandi said it best:

      “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win..”

      Ron Paul may never ascend to the Presidency (for the safety of his personal well-being part of hopes he never does), but his ideals are ABSOLUTELY going to over-throw the corporate oligarchy that thinks it has this nation by the throat.

    • blueRepublican October 19, 2011, 10:22 pm

      if Ron Paul makes it on the ticket

      Make it happen by participating in your primary/caucus. While some states like Michigan have an open primary, it is best to GET REGISTERED R RIGHT NOW.

      If your state is a caucus state, like Rick A’s Colorado, then get registered R right now. For Colorado, spend a couple hours at caucus on Feb 7. Sit around a table near your home, with your neighbors from your precinct. Vote on one of you to go to the next level to get to the state convention as a delegate for Ron Paul.
      THIS is how it happens. A little involvement now will make the difference.

      Check out the facebook group “BlueRepublicans”. Dems registering R to become delegates for Ron Paul.

  • DG October 19, 2011, 6:02 am

    The idea that USDA even has the power to field a swat team is absurd.

    I ate homegrown food (beef and vegetables) for 18 years and not once had anything remotely close to food poisoning. Just awesome, delicious, nutrition.

    The USDA is a powerful, fearsome agency though. Look at the damage they cause with their E Coli weapon every year. Yes, indeed, those regulations and regulators keep us safe. Only 70,000 people a years get e coli infections in America thanks to those Jack boots kicking in the door of those skanky cattle operations……right….

    If only the computer industry had regulations dictating quality of computers…..no, come to think of it, there is only a market of brutal competition.

    Almost as effective as the SEC in keeping us safe from shady accounting and Wall St shenanigans….

    Folks forget how ineffective our regulations are when they criticize Ron Paul’s ideas that the market could regulate itself better. It’s a facade. There is no free market. The regulators are not about safety they are a tool for the corruption to occur and for the oligarchy to stomp out competition.

    Then the “Ron Paul is Nuts” crowd argues that the housing disaster was a result of lack of regulation? No. Quite the opposite. It was a facade of regulation and exemptions left and right, giving the consumer the idea that there was regulation when it was something quite a bit worse. I don’t remember in any of the regulation created, 100 plus pages of paperwork on my home loan it stipulated that this money was being pooled with liar loans, insured by CDS’, and leveraged 40:1 on bank capital….nope….that was all approved by the “regulators”, keeping us safe….in fact, the majority of the paperwork was not to protect me at all, but to protect everyone else, in case the deal went wrong…

    My point is you have no real regulation, so don’t pretend that you do.

    • Mark Uzick October 19, 2011, 11:02 am

      >>>My point is you have no real regulation, so don’t pretend that you do.<<<

      Exactly: The only real regulation comes from the free market; the state is the essence of anarchy.

    • fallingman October 19, 2011, 4:08 pm

      Ditto that “exactly.”

  • Farmer Tom October 19, 2011, 4:41 am

    So much conflict in this piece Rick.

    I agree with many of the comments regarding the invasive power of government on the farm. We do need to open up the system and we can start by breaking the monopoly power of the quota system which has effectively ended the creation of new agri business in this country.

    Do you know anybody personally who has started a new farm recently? No, I though not. Nobody else does either. Fewer than two percent of North Americans are now engaged in that industry as a full time livelihood.

    Actually, even that is not quite correct as many small farmers work a second job in town to make ends meet and to maintain the lifestyle they have become accustomed too. In essence, they work extra hours to subsidize our groceries and meat demands.

    If anyone is not aware of it, the cost to start a dairy from scratch these days can run into the millions. That only covers the basics including quota costs, building, land and animals. What of experience though? Who pays the cost of a true farm education which can only ever be learned first-hand on the farm itself?

    And anyway, who in his right mind with millions of excess dollars at his disposal wants to be a farmer to begin with!!! Nobody I know that is for sure. Those who have made it and have those big bucks are all saying goodbye to the land and saying hello to beach night in Hawaii (or whatever other paradise suits their fancy).

    But I still think Ron is a kind of nutty. Sorry Rick.

    On a separate note, for those who like charts and graphs I would like you to all consider this one inconvenient statistic for a second time tonight.

    Two percent of the working population of America are fully engaged in farming as a living…..Just two percent. One hundred years ago that same figure exceeded 60% or more depending on the State you resided in.

    So you like charts right? Do you think that if you plotted this one out it might show that the market for farming is oversold and a huge rebound is in store?

    Or do you think that the way this chart will resolve itself will be not through an increase in the farm population, but rather by a decrease in the urban population?

    Just saying. A trend reversal is near. Think about it. Technical analysis can be applied to any commodity, stock or trend. That includes charts of the movements of populations too.

    • Rick Ackerman October 19, 2011, 7:02 am

      The local-foods movement may be the trend you’ve been waiting for, Tom, and it has already sunk roots not only in rural areas, but in big-city, foodie havens like the Bay Area. Here in Boulder, grocery stores like Whole Foods and Sunflower, as well as local restaurants, are working closely with growers to develop the market for free-range chicken, beef and organically grown produce.

      One point that ‘Farmageddon’ makes clear is that prices for food produced by those who “think small” will drop when family farms are freed from ridiculously burdensome laws designed to regulate factory farms and mass distribution. An explicit goal of Boulder’s local-foods movement, for one, is to make high-quality produce affordable; however, for the time being, the only way consumers can support this trend is by paying exorbitant prices at farmer’s markets for tomatoes, eggs, beef, cheese, peppers and such.

      Concerning the high entry cost for dairy farmers, I saw this first-hand in Bellingham, where a friend of mine struggled to get a Harveststore franchise going. Most of the farmers were skeptical initially, but just like city and suburban folk, they are evidently keen on keeping up with the Joneses, especially when the Joneses have bought a flashy new piece of equipment.

      You might be interested to learn that a Rick’s Picks subscriber, a commodity trader who used the handle “Nutcase” in the chat room, left the business to raise grass-fed beef in Wisconsin. He said the stress of trading was too much, but it is trading profits that enabled him to buy the farm he’d dreamed of owning for years.

    • Farmer Tom October 19, 2011, 4:34 pm

      That is a great point Rick. Maybe the urban “back to the land” farm movement is in fact that trend change. With luck, the seeds will be planted for a new generation of people who choose that occupation as their first love, tossing the office-life in favour of some good old fashioned dirt. And it can’t be a bad thing. Despite the rap it has had over the years, farming can be incredibly rewarding from a financial point of view if only because so few engage it directly. Demand is there and needs are growing daily for quality foods.

    • Robert October 19, 2011, 8:10 pm

      “Two percent of the working population of America are fully engaged in farming as a living…..Just two percent. One hundred years ago that same figure exceeded 60% or more depending on the State you resided in.

      So you like charts right? Do you think that if you plotted this one out it might show that the market for farming is oversold and a huge rebound is in store?

      Or do you think that the way this chart will resolve itself will be not through an increase in the farm population, but rather by a decrease in the urban population?

      Just saying. A trend reversal is near. Think about it. Technical analysis can be applied to any commodity, stock or trend. That includes charts of the movements of populations too.”

      – Since farming can not go to zero Tom, I whole-heartedly agree with you.

    • Steve October 19, 2011, 10:14 pm

      Farmer, I guess that 90% of the population is “Nutty/Nutty” making Paul’s nutty very good. That is the problem, no one wants to change because real change is hard. Ron Paul is 90% correct.