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Let’s Think This Through Together…

by Rick Ackerman on April 8, 2011 12:01 am GMT · 316 comments

[Discussion prompted by the commentary below continues to evolve and may yet enlighten us sufficiently to produce some useful conclusions about the banking system's looming endgame.  Hyperinflation, or deflation?  At this point, I'll concede that it could be either that brings us to economic ruin.  But I will nonetheless argue in a forthcoming essay that the dollar could collapse without triggering a hyperinflation.  Under this scenario, it would not be a question of paying $1,000 for a barrel of oil, or $100 for a carton of eggs; rather, those in a position to supply such basic necessities would simply stop taking dollars.  This clearly implies that we would move rapidly to barter, abandoning a currency system that might conceivably have become useless overnight. (The spectacularly bullish implications this holds for gold are impossible to miss).  To drive the discussion toward a conclusion, I would urge readers to immerse themselves in this idea. You can skip the commentary itself if you'd like, since whatever insights it might provide at this point pale in comparison to the gems that have turned up in the forum. Simply click on the "Comments" link above to enter the forum.

When you jump into the fray, argue not from theory but from the logic of how you imagine your life would proceed in the wake of a collapse of the banking system and the dollar.  You might pretend that the catalyst for the collapse was a Treasury auction at which the Fed was the only buyer amidst wholesale dumping of U.S. paper by...everyone.  To heighten your acuity and stimulate the imagination, make this catastrophe a personal one. Pretend, for example, that it is the first of the month, that your employer and your $100,000 job are unexpectedly in dire jeopardy, and that you are about to send your mortgage lender a check for $2000 drawn on an account with $10,000 in it. The evening news is filled with reports that the Federal Reserve will do everything in its power to keep the system liquid, but they note as well that the dollar has fallen steeply relative to other currencies.  All interest rates have soared spectacularly, threatening to send your ARM in the same direction.  RA]

First, let me say that I’ve long enjoyed reading the rants of over-the-top inflationists like Jim Willie, but also the relatively subdued essays of Gonzalo Lira — even if the latter sometimes comes across as the kind of guy who could wear out a mirror.  I feel a comradeship with both because, predictions about the financial endgame aside, I agree with much of what they have said — most particularly about the robust defensive role that bullion seems likely to play no matter what happens.  But that is not to say that I agree with all of Lira’s and Jim Willie’s arguments. Some background is in order. My instincts concerning deflation were hard-wired in 1976 after reading C.V. Myers’ The Coming Deflation.  The title was premature, as we now know, but the book’s core idea was as timeless and immutable as the Law of Gravity. Myers stated, with elegant simplicity, that “Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the  lender.”  Inflationists and deflationists implicitly agree on this point — we are all ruinists at heart, as our readers will long since have surmised, and  we differ only on the question of who, borrower or lender, will take the hit.  As Myers made clear, however, someone will have to pay.  If you understand this, then you understand why the dreadnought of real estate deflation, for one, will remain with us even if 30 million terminally afflicted homeowners leave their house keys in the mailbox. To repeat: We do not make debt disappear by walking away from it; someone will have to take the hit. 

Expanding on that point alone, I could dismiss Lira’s entire argument with a wave of the hand, invoking the killer question that blogger Charles Hugh Smith has asked of overheated inflationists, to wit:  Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen?  The obvious answer is that they wouldn’t. And won’t. I’ve made this point myself many times before and in many ways, sometimes asking rhetorically whether we should expect Joe Sixpack and tens of millions of other underwater homeowners to be able to retire their mortgages using the confetti money that a hyperinflation would produce. Mortgage lenders would be big losers, of course, but so would anyone hoping to ever own a home — or to borrow money, for whatever purpose.

Unbearable Cost of ‘Escaping’ Debt

One of the best places to find the inflation vs. deflation argument deconstructed to a fine science, and to confront the horrific – and, as I am about to argue, unbearable — cost of “escaping” debt via hyperinflation, is the 1993 book The Great Reckoning. Co-authors Jim Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg went to great lengths to refract every aspect of the debate. It was this book, and a subsequent dialogue that I had with Jim Davidson, that hardened my deflationist ideas, convincing me – as they likely would many of you, though perhaps not Lira — that a deflationary path would at least be less ruinous than a hyperinflationary one. To be sure, vast amounts of real wealth would be destroyed in either case.  But deflation would have the virtue of inflicting pain on debtors more or less in accordance with their sins, bankrupting those who most deserved it.  That said, one needn’t drag in moral baggage to explain why the powers that be are extremely unlikely to pursue a hyperinflationary course.

And “pursue” is the correct word here, since, as The Great Reckoning made clear, hyperinflations don’t simply happen; they can only occur following the willful and deliberate decision of a sovereign government to hyperinflate. We need only consider the catastrophic consequences of hyperinflation to understand why such a scheme is so very unlikely to be promoted and effected by the Masters of the Universe.  For starters, savers and lenders as a class would be wiped out, since their financial assets would become as worthless as the dollar itself. Bond markets and all other institutional conduits of saving and investment would cease to function in the absence of trust – trust that would take many years for capitalists to earn back. From day one, a darkening economy would subsist on cash transactions, which in turn would bring on the hardest of times, little economic growth, and a drop in the standard of living so steep that it might take a generation to rekindle even a glimmer of the American Dream.

Deflation’s ‘Virtues’

Deflation, on the other hand, would leave the bond and stock markets intact, sparing those with little or no debt from its worst ravages.  For those who owe, a tidal wave of bankruptcies would mete out punishment commensurate with each borrower’s sins of profligacy and/or greed. Businesses would be starved for credit, but whatever savings were available would go to the most promising of them.  Most advantageously for an economy on-the-mend, it would be many years before capital would be hijacked by the paper-shufflers and feather merchants.  In both the public and private sphere, Americans would be forced to live within their means.

I won’t belabor Lira’s arguments where he attempts, not entirely without success, to “slice and dice” my logic when it is at its weakest.  But his main criticism — that I have not made a case for deflation, only one against hyperinflation – is disingenuous. For in fact, I have stated the case for deflation thus:  Someday very soon, following the precipitous failure of the world’s banks and securities markets, we will all be too broke to push the price of anything sky-high. Hyperinflationists assume we will have vast piles of cash at-the-ready, physical or digital, to exchange for real goods in a panic or along the way to hyperinflation. But will we? Read Lira’s smug hit-job a dozen times and you will find no mention of how that cash will get into our hands, much less into our hands if the banking system should go blotto. He avers only that, well before a collapse, via quantitative easing, the government will “ram” money “into the economy.” As if that hasn’t been tried to death already.

No Middle Way

If you believe that one or the other, deflation or hyperinflation, will eventually do us in, then you may find yourself won over by my argument simply on the evidence I muster against hyperinflation.  Read on and judge for yourself. For what it’s worth, Lira’s ruinist essays suggest that we do see eye to eye on one thing – that there is no “middle way” that might allow us to avoid the catastrophic liquidation of a global debt bubble whose notional value has been estimated as high as a quadrillion dollars.

Let me dwell for yet another moment on this idea that Americans could go broke overnight. Lira apparently believes this unlikely, if not impossible, and he could be right. But not very, since it is beyond conjecture that the day-to-day economy would grind to a halt quickly if digital money were thrown into chaos and disrepute for more than a few days.  And it’s not as though Americans are so very confident in electronic money’s soundness at this point that the banking system could withstand even a minor crisis. Unfortunately, and as we all know, there are no minor crises any more, especially in the financial realm.

We’ll All Be Broke

So, broke is what most of us will be when the dust settles, and it is perhaps only a matter of the rate at which we go broke that divides inflationist from deflationist. How quickly could the financial system come tumbling down? Last May’s “flash crash” on Wall Street demonstrated that it could occur in a trice.  Picture the Morning After the next flash crash, but assume that, this time around, the Plunge Protection Team has been unable to arrest its spread into bond markets and other securities markets around the world. Hardly a stretch, right?  But it’s a big stretch to imagine a hyperinflation arising from the smoke and rubble of the creditless world that would result.

Will we have gone broke without having had the chance to pay off our mortgages in snide? I say yes; Lira, for his argument to hold, is obliged to say no.  I hope he’s right. Then again, maybe hyperinflation will unfold so slowly that we’ll all have time to trade piles of shrinking dollars for real stuff currently owned by…fools?

Whatever happens, I wouldn’t put much store in Lira’s assurance that even small branch-banks keep scads of cash around. Try to withdraw $25,000 from your own branch if you want to find out the truth. He’ll probably say that the banks, with a nod from Uncle Sam, could refill everyone’s account with digital money overnight. I say, think about that for a moment – about the economically fatal traffic jam this would create instantly in the world of real transactions.

Deflationary Gas-Bag

Lira’s arguments, although certainly not his ungentlemanly, preening condescension, are at their weakest when he attempts to explain how quantitative easing will inject a hyperinflationary sum of dollars into the real economy.  He says our bankrupt government will simply spend limitless quantities of funny money into the “wider economy.”  If it were that easy, why are home prices still falling after trillions of dollars worth of “stimulus”? And why have wages failed to rise?  Granted, fuel and grocery prices have been going up. But how long can that trend continue with incomes stagnating and household discretionary cash plummeting?  (That was not a problem in 1922 Weimar, by the way, for reason that I shall explain shortly.) And how many seats will the airlines fill this summer if prices stay above $500?  With respect to the inflation of stock-market prices, we’ll let Lira shoot himself in the foot if he wants to argue that Wall Street’s cosmic gas-bag is other than a deflationary juggernaut waiting to implode.  Meanwhile, a vastly larger gas-bag in the form of a global derivatives bubble is set to implode with irresistible force. Hundreds of trillions of dollars’ worth of collateral are destined to shrink to the vanishing point.  That is the true measure of deflation’s force, and when it starts to snowball again as it did in 2008, no puny multitrillion-dollar monetization by the Fed will even begin to counteract it.

Finally, we cannot let Lira evade the question of how, specifically, the government will “ram” (his word) QE3/QE4/QE5 money into the economy, especially when the state and local governments who in earlier times would have been the most eager and efficient conduits for these sums have begun to refuse them, knowing as they do that each new stimulus dollar will only create more debt for future taxpayers.  We’d like to believe that the common sense of Republican and Tea Party governors and legislators alone will suffice to smother any inflation that might otherwise seep into the economy via supercharged outlays of cities, counties and states. In fact, the deflationary opposite is happening as local and state governments expand layoffs and pare budgets to the bone. Which leaves only the private economy to receive a wage stimulus sufficient to catalyze hyperinflation.  On that score, just as we’ve asked hyperinflationists to wake us when we can sell our home for a quadrillion dollars, we’ll ask them now to send us a job application when GM is paying assembly-line workers $800 an hour.

When Money Dies

Big employers effectively did so in Germany, allowing weekly wage settlements with then-pervasive trade unions to track hyperinflation almost step-for-step.  But you’ll need to read Adam Fergusson’s book about the Weimar hyperinflation, When Money Dies, to understand exactly why the U.S. is legally and practically constrained from duplicating Germany’s dubious feat. If you believe otherwise — believe, as Lira evidently does, that the Fed could somehow put a google of dollars into circulation on demand — then you should be buying real estate hand-over-fist right now. When Money Dies is a great read even for those who’d rather not be disabused of the notion that today’s USA, economically and financially, is not 1921’s Weimar. I particularly recommend a chapter that recounts how the most extreme periods of German hyperinflation occurred while the country’s money-printing presses were idled by strikes.  Turns out, some of Weimar’s largest employers had been authorized by the government to print scrip in the event that crates of official money didn’t arrive in time to meet payroll. Imagine what such a policy could do for Detroit! For the whole world!

Rather than argue that this couldn’t happen, we’ll say only that if it did, it would be but a momentary blip in a deflationary collapse in real estate that Lira doesn’t even mention.  Just wait till the incipient collapse in commercial property values hits full-bore.  This is yet another deflationary juggernaut that the arrogant and pompous Lira has conveniently failed to notice.  He will soon, though, and the shock of it may yet distract his attention from an inflation that so far has barely overflowed the lettuce bin.

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{ 316 comments }

Bc April 6, 2011 at 7:50 am

Excellent post. I would add that what is coming is bankruptcies. Lots and lots of them. Cities, states, individuals, companies, are going to restructure debts on the way into bankruptcy and then again by a federal judge
Skilled in bankruptcy proceedings. We can and should deficit spend to help the poor and infirm per Keynes. There is no way to save the middle class from severe stress. The FIRE sector will shrink from forty percent of private sector profits to less than five percent. On the bright side we should see schumpeter’s creative destruction on steroids aided by 3D CAD and CAM products and the Internet. It won’t be all bad but it will be
hard times.

nobull April 6, 2011 at 4:26 pm

The premise of this argument – that the rich and powerful men of the Fed would be wiped our by hyperinflation – is clearly patently false. Guaranty you they own gold, silver and other hard assets. Alan Greenspan is on John Paulson’s payroll as an advisor, and almost certainly is a proponent of Paulson offering investments in his funds denominated in gold. In a hyperinflationary event, the unprepared rich (i.e. most ostensibly wealthy people) will be wiped out, while the PREPARED rich (i.e. the few who own gold, silver, and other hard assets) will be much wealthier on a relative basis……

&&&&&

Begging your pardon, but the super-rich whom I know personally — one married a childhood friend owns a major league baseball team and dozens of tall office buildings — don’t give a hoot about gold and silver. Even Soros is not 100% in bullion, and who can say what his exposure is otherwise? Anyone with billions to diversify has a very, very difficult problem since, these days, there is no defensive asset — other than bullion — that can be bought-and-held. Those who went into Treasurys, munis, and other supposedly rock-solid defensive assets found this out the hard way. RA

roger erickson April 6, 2011 at 4:59 pm

> gold, silver and other hard assets

The hardest asset of all is return-on-coordination, otherwise social species wouldn’t dominate the earth, humans wouldn’t be balkanized into competing nation-states, and those practicing military science wouldn’t hold the master key to our particular fortress-state.

Deflation/Inflation are the tolerance limits set by producer/rentier contributors to a scaling population & economy.

If we don’t stay within tolerance limits, there will be a pushing match and a slow series of negotiated settlements between these vocal segments, each backed by supporters recruited from the general populace.

Or, we’ll sit arguing too long and then get run over by some other nation keeping their eye on the prize.

Robert April 6, 2011 at 5:42 pm

“The hardest asset of all is return-on-coordination”

I agree, because those who would choose to “coordinate” others are overwhelmingly NOT QUALIFIED to do so.

I work in Corporate America- I see the number of key, strategic decisions made everyday by people who do not understand the basic underlying criteria of what constitutes the right thing to do given the circumstances… so they make blanket judgement calls that amount to an intellectual flip of the coin.

The higher you go, the more clueless the decision process becomes, until you get to governmental regulators who fail in understanding even the fundamental foundations of the industries they are charged to over-look…

There are other key metrics that are missing on a global scale:

1) Return on personal incentive
2) Return on entreprenuerism
3) Return on intellectual discipline

Rich April 6, 2011 at 7:27 pm

Murphy’s Law at work…

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:29 pm

Thank you Robert !

Paul April 7, 2011 at 3:54 am

Roger

“If we don’t stay within tolerance limits, there will be a pushing match and a slow series of negotiated settlements between these vocal segments”

This negotation is continous, and is normally apparent in various yields, most notably govt bond yields. What happens in a hyperinflation, is that the tolerance has been pushed so far, the “language” of the negotiation changes. In Weimar, this language changed fairly slowly, from Marks to Dollars/Gold. In a breakdown, the language changes abruptly. Rick is confusing a fast language change with a fast negotation.

RR April 7, 2011 at 6:31 am

Rick – while off topic, I must ask…Lew Wolff?

Bed Rock April 6, 2011 at 8:00 am

Rick,
Thanks for starting this debate (again). I think all of your, Willie’s, and Lira’s readers (many of whom are the same, I know that I am) are not really concerned about whether it will be inflation or deflation but what to do to prepare themselves to survive or prosper from whatever is going to happen. Gold, silver, cash (US and other currencies), mining stock certificates in your hand, food, water, gun & ammo, generators, close friends with deversified talents, things to use as barter, etc are what I been loading up on for years. Do the same and you will be prepared for what ever comes our way. Sleep well and enjoy your family & friends. So keep posting the photos of pretty girls and enjoy your beverage of choice !!!

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 8:34 am

This is a gem with many sparkling points, Rick. But there is one that I can’t tell from a flaw or a trick of the light…

“Try to withdraw $25,000 from your own branch if you want to find out the truth. He’ll probably say that the banks, with a nod from Uncle Sam, could refill everyone’s account with digital money overnight. I say, think about that for a moment – about the economically fatal traffic jam this would create instantly in the world of real transactions.”

Okay, I’m drawing a blank. Instant and fatal traffic jams, world-wide? Do you mean hyperinflation? I’m inclined to think so, since a nod from Uncle Slimeball would be the political action you’ve so often refered to as necessary to trigger HI. Still, I’m not sure what you’re getting at, so I have to ask.

But if that is it, I think there is a way they could get away with refilling accounts: Ration cards of digital cash, aka national ID. Uncle will fill up your bank account to the extent that you need, but only for the things Uncle approves of. I think that is where we’re headed because if that isn’t done… Well, forget bank runs. It would be more like bank riots. There’s just no way the masses are going to stand for having the banks rob them. So free refills (with restrictions) it may well be. If they don’t keep tight control on what the digits are spent on, KA-BOOM!, which is what TPTB don’t want.

Not that this would be hyper-inflationary. Nor even inflationary as we might expect; inflation in the price of necessities would likely be hidden by price-fixing. Those would be accomplished partly by what the rest of the itching-to-riot world would bear, with the rest absorbed by the prices of non-essentials (plus a hefty luxury tax slapped on; do as Uncle says, kiddies).

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 9:05 am

Yes, right: Not that digital ration cards would be inflationary, let alone hyperinflationary.

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 11:12 am

Thanks for the clarification, Rick.

Rasputin_007 April 6, 2011 at 11:26 am

Rick ! I am not sure if your criticism of Jim Willie is correct. Maybe you misunderstand him. He says that a deflationary spiral in an inflationary money environment emerges and this is not a contradiction. The real economy shrinks but the financial monetary output has multiplied in the past years driving up hard asset prices while interest related assets collaps. I enjoy all the time these debates but the result is desastrous for most people in the world. Anyway. I like your analyses. Arnd / Germany

Andy B April 6, 2011 at 8:49 am

Rick,
Thanks for this detailed follow-up to your last post. You also directly take on Gonzo’s points I saw in Zero Hedge today. Both of you provide a valuable discussion.

I think precious metals are part of the “answer” no matter how the cookie crumbles. The metals occupy an important space between the poles of the (semi-symbolic) US Dollar, and the irrefutably valuable (like farm land or food.)

&&&&&&&&

I have personal e-mails from Jim, and, trust me, he is a died-in-the-wool inflationist. RA

Rich April 6, 2011 at 8:51 am

Rick et al
Came here immediately upon seeing GL’s ZH post:
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/gonzalo-lira-vs-rick-ackerman-slicing-logic-behind-no-hyperinflation-argument
His Inflationista claim to fame was being from Allende Chile and Dartmouth, taking Logic Courses, writing books and making Movies. Bully, but not finance.
He got a lot of posts from the I side of the I/D debate, was ridiculed off ZH for not knowing what he was writing about with Banking, the Fed and hyperinflation, after ZH featured him as a Contributor.
Too, his ultimate logic was ad hominem attacks.
I was struck again today by the difference between financial markets, opinions about markets and reality, as I saw all the empty buildings, homes and stores.
How many armchair analysts actually get up and walk around downtown or across America to see what’s really going down?
We have a stock market supported by little beyond Fed liquidity, which so far worked for REIT stocks, but not real estate itself.
We have St Louis Fed charts openly graphing deflation, yet the majority think new highs in gold are inflation, while the 30s when gold soared were deflationary.
We have Congress debating about closing government down over $64 B in cuts, when the budget deficit is $1.4 T.
As the story goes, Plato theorized how many teeth the horse had, while Aristotle looked inside his mouth.
Methinks some people may be sorely surprised when the denouement comes, as surely, eventually it will, and wipes them out…
Regards*All

GrahamR April 6, 2011 at 9:00 am

Very interesting debate….but I think you’re missing a crucial point Rick…

Hyperinflation doesn’t have to happen through supply / demand of currency….it can and usually does happen when there is a loss of faith in the currency..

That loss of faith has already started to happen with all currencies, especially the dollar.

Interesting article last year posted on Zerohedge that you might find interesting:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/perspectives-rosenberg-hyperinflation-loss-faith-currency

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 9:27 am

I’ve explicitly addressed exactly this point numerous times, Graham.

PhotoRadarScam April 6, 2011 at 9:10 am

Still not addressing the (lack of) demand side of the equation. What’s a dollar (backed by the full faith and credit of a government) worth when no one wants it or believes in the longevity of the fiat issuer any longer?

“Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen?”

The question itself is flawed, because it presumes that those who control the FR don’t know what they are doing and wouldn’t prepare for it, which is nonsense. They would fully prepare for such an event (and I’m sure they have) and would ensure that they benefit from the scenario to the fullest extent.

The other way the question is flawed is that it ignores what the FR has already accomplished and what its goals may be. The US/FR has duped most of the world into lending it money. It’s not just J6P who gets to pay off his mortgage with “confetti money,” but the FR gets to pay off its treasuries in the same manner.

And while a deflationary path may be less ruinous or more preferable to an inflationary path, the deflationary path is political suicide for elected officials. Does the American voting public have the guts/brains to elect those who will “bring the economic pain (deflation)” over those who keep the dollars and easy-money flowing thus keeping the economy running full speed ahead and high employment numbers? In the end it’s not the FR but Congress who still has the overriding power.

Finally, Rick continues to trot out home prices as an example, which is the only thing that hasn’t gone up lately, completely ignoring the numerous factors that affect a market and pricing and the fact that housing is an aberration for the time being and probably for at least a few more years while housing stabilizes. Similarly, during 2004-2005, no one would point at housing prices and claim great inflation while prices of everything else remained fairly flat even while “commoners” were flush with cash from re-financing their houses. All markets will take time to re-establish a mostly-balanced supply & demand scenario after being knocked wildly off balance and until then the affect of some market forces, like inflation and deflation will be muted or over-exaggerated. Markets in this state are not valid examples.

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 9:32 am

Your arguments are s-o-o-o tired. And wrong, too, since even for Masters of the Universe, as for the rest of us, there is only ruin in deflation, not opportunity. As for housing being an “abberation,” surely you are joking?

I’ve worked a 20-hour day so-far, what with responding to Lira, to 116 e-mails, and everything else, and I am just plum worn out. I’ve got messages on my phone that have been blinking since noon. This will therefore be the last response I make to those whose arguments aren’t up to snuff — especially arguments that are nasty, patronizing, condescending or even ever-so-slightly irritating.

I’m going to take a rest Wednesday after the tutorial session. My gratitude to anyone who can carry the ball for a while. You can probably recite my arguments word-for-word, as I hope you will.

10-4, over and out.

PhotoRadarScam April 6, 2011 at 9:43 am

How can the current housing market NOT be an aberration? Has there ever been a bubble the likes of 2004-2007?

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 11:34 am

“They would fully prepare for such an event (and I’m sure they have) and would ensure that they benefit from the scenario to the fullest extent.”

Right. Which means keeping their currency alive. Why?

The central banking system has in it’s possession such a large number of assets, which are more securely in their hands due to mass ignorance and/or pacifism than they are not.

But if they didn’t keep the world saddled with debts that saw people craving little peices of paper in an attempt to retire those debts, the CB would at some rate lose what they’ve been storing up over the past few centuries. So their currencies have value to them, and therefore the world, no matter how well-prepared the bankers are. The institution did not rise to where it is today by the sudden awareness of the mortality its employees are prone to.

So they’re being and going to continue being as ruthless as they are greedy. Now that they’ve got it so much of it, keeping it while accquiring the last remanents is the game. And even when they have it all, their own currencies will still have as much value to them as the very first day they started this scam.

“Does the American voting public have the guts/brains to elect those who will “bring the economic pain (deflation)” over those who keep the dollars and easy-money flowing thus keeping the economy running full speed ahead and high employment numbers?”

Yes. It will happen. It IS happening already. For example, even as union thugs have stepped up their threats against one governor, they just aren’t gaining any ground. People have figured out that they need whatever money they have so they can pay off their debts and/or manage to save and get by. It’s them or the moochers, so off the life-boats the moochers go. And the more depressing this gets, the more willing and able government will become to make those “unthinkable” cuts.

The best part is, all these cuts (and more to come yet) are going to have the necessary backing by the majority. Couldn’t ask for better than that if you’re running this game. Mobs would hang the bankers so high as to decapitate them if they knew what they were doing. But instead, the mobs are on their side.

Carol April 6, 2011 at 4:31 pm

Photo ,

you stated “It’s not just J6P who gets to pay off his mortgage with “confetti money,” but the FR gets to pay off its treasuries in the same manner.”

Well from what you said you think the FR is a debtor and the US is the creditor? I believe you have it backwards, the FR lends to the US guvmnt so in a hyperinflation it would be the US guvmnt paying confetti money to the FR to pay off US debts. Since the FR is owned by the Masters of the Universe (MOTU) I would have to agree with Rick here; why would the MOTU sit by and allow themselves to be transformed from creditors (owners) of the world into losing that position (by being paid off) AND losing their strangle hold over mankind by way of confetti money?

PhotoRadarScam April 6, 2011 at 5:09 pm

Sorry, it was late when I wrote that. Still, the FR-insiders’ interests are now more global than local, and more power than monetary. The next step to global domination involves subverting the USD so a new global currency can be created. The MOTU will come out of this transition just fine, don’t worry about them.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 11:08 am

Perhaps picking up some slack with a bone to pick about the new SEC 10% limit down/limit up proposal that may kill equity market liquidity, which, unlike futures markets, does not have other months to offset trades. Might benefit CBOE or stock futures somewhat.
Re deflationary ruin, Rick may have meant inflationary ruin.
There were plenty of bubbles to rival and exceed the housing bubble, ags, energy, PMs, for example.
What goes up must come down.
Plenty of things have not gone up lately, namely anything that requires credit.
The Volt sold less than 1000 cars in three months.
BYD Electric even less.
Facts can be unpopular things.
Re the politics of deflation, DC and Wall Street may have no choice, as Irving Fisher delineated debt default deflation in the 30s, after he missed the 1929 inflationary top in stocks. Now we have derivative debt default deflation. Why are politicians like Jesse Ventura, Michele Bachmann, Rand and Ron Paul more popular than ever except for the monopoly media?
It ain’t because they are for borrow, spend and tax.
The Fed and Treasury did not dupe the world into lending the USA money. Countries had trade surpluses with the USA as buyer of first and last resort and wanted a chance to foreclose on America, which, rumour has it, occurred with Hillary hypothecating America to China to keep the trade going and prevent distress sales of Treasuries.
As for no one wanting a dollar and everyone wanting gold, who hasn’t seen Mark Dice @ Taco Bell and elsewhere?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef0VG1WEP10 2:58
Can we all agree we have neither hyperinflation nor hyperinflation now, but mixed stagflation?…

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 11:50 am

“The Fed and Treasury did not dupe the world into lending the USA money. Countries had trade surpluses with the USA as buyer of first and last resort…”

The dictators and socialists of the world knew darn well what supporting The Policy meant for them… which is why there’s so many angry yet impotent people in the world today.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many still think China, for example, will drop our debt/currency. I mean, I used to think so myself, but not in a good long while. That is against the communists governments ultimate aim, though, which is to keep a firm grip on things in their part of the world; if they drop the U.S., then the there is a too-large risk that the U.S. rises from the ashes of debt and revolt to become what it was always meant to be. And iron fists cannot keep up when the competition is so great.

“Can we all agree we have neither hyperinflation nor hyperinflation now, but mixed stagflation?…”

Whatever ‘flation it is, it stinks. I think we can all agree on that!

Harry April 6, 2011 at 11:31 am

Nobody actively seeks hyperinflation – they all think it won’t happen to them: Mugabe, any number of S American dictators and now Bernanke.

And hyperinflation doesn’t mean the workers get any of the newly-printed cash. Like Mugabe, the Fed is printing money only to hand out to its cronies – on Wall St.

Like Mugabe’s subjects, Bernanke’s subjects will suffer hyperinflation without ever getting even nominally rich.

Cam Fitzgerald April 7, 2011 at 1:45 pm

Not sure about that Harry. The hyperinflation in Zimbabwe went on for quite some time, certainly long enough for the Government there to intervene and squash it with policy tools if they chose. Little was done. Mugabe was too proud and too arrogant to admit the error of his ways.

Problem is that it suited the goals of the regime to sqaunder everyone elses wealth. It was no accident when they went out and deliberately printed up mountains of 50 Billion Zim-dollar notes that could not even buy you a cup of coffee.

That hyperinflation was something closer to financial revenge than a true failure of the economy and its currency. It was the deliberate arrogant act of a madman who would have his own way over any advice given from any quarter whether the IMF, the Governments own Finance ministers, bondholders or foreign governments including the US and EU.

Ben April 6, 2011 at 1:11 pm

it seems to me one of the ways that it seems hyperinflation could be set off would be the USD losing it’s status as world reserve currency. This could be caused by oil no longer being traded in USD, international trade being settled without the USD as an intermediary, and the unloading of US treasury and other US based debt obligations from central banks and other foreign holdings. If those USDs come flooding back into the US economy couldn’t that create a surge in money supply?

Steve April 6, 2011 at 5:18 pm

Ben, who of the individual middle and lower caste in america are going to get those incoming federal reserve notes?

rmsimc April 6, 2011 at 8:34 pm

Ben,
I agree that the biggest tangible risk to the dollar is exactly what you point out…losing it’s reserve status. Not to reiterate many sound arguments put forth on this site recently, lets just say that TPTB would not find that a very appealing quantum change. But, if such a happening did actually occur, it would stress the dollar…probably halving its value…it would NOT, however, lead to true HI in the historical sense. Like most here, I cannot see the fundamental driver that could produce systemic HI in US terms. Over the coming years, things will definately change but I have a sense its not gonna fall off a cliff…unless its a rip in the derivitives market which would ultimately cause a HUGE SUCKING SOUND that produces deflation in its purest sense.

BP April 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm

Both of you guys are wrong. Stagflation and nothing happens. Muddle through economy.

Bold predictions never play out well, but they do sell!

DG April 6, 2011 at 3:26 pm

ding, ding, ding……we have a winner. Very economical I might add.
There must be hundreds of thousands of words burned up on this discussion. It is tiresome – it wore out poor Rick! Get well, buddy!!
Years ago, having the same discussion in this chatroom, and at that time Rick simply stated, I paraphrase, “Inflation, deflation, matters not, we will trade it hidden pivot point by HP,” arriving at price discovery.

Carol April 6, 2011 at 4:45 pm

I have to agree here. This argument D vs HI is getting to be like the agrument between God created man and evolution made single celled organisms into complex human beings! Hey maybe it is not either of those but is a third option.

We keep looking at Weimar as if it was the only possible outcome. How about Argentina. Better yet how about Iceland, what happened to their economy when their currency collapsed? It seems that such a situation is much closer to ours than Weimar was.

Cam Fitzgerald April 7, 2011 at 2:01 pm

Right Carol. Or for that matter what about Israel. They had a hyperinflation too and it is rarely ever talked about. Like it never even existed. The event fell somewhere between 1975 and 1981 and I lived it first-hand.

On the issue of stagflation and rising commodity prices I continue to maintain that this is just a form of taxation on essentials and does nothing to boost wages or generate significant economic activity.

Waterman Jim April 6, 2011 at 1:56 pm

Yeah Rick!

You Da Man!

MikeL April 6, 2011 at 2:43 pm

Hyperinflation is not an extension of inflation.
It is the extension of deflation and the governments attempt to inflate a way out of that deflation.

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 3:53 pm

Right, sort of. But when was the last time the sovereign author of the world’s only reserve currency tried to hyperinflate the whole friggin’ world out of deflation, including attempting to reverse the collapse of a quadrillion-dollar derivatives bubble denominated almost entirely in the reserve currency?

MikeL April 6, 2011 at 6:19 pm

Rick, in answer to your comment below.
Respectfully I think you are confusing the issue.
The FR are not trying to hyper inflate, they are trying prevent the economy from deflating (even though economy is inflating at between 6-8%).
The true money supply is climbing but the velocity of that money is dropping giving the appearance of deflation.
As confidence in the USD declines and no one wants them, interest rates must rise. This will require more QE to cover greater deficits hence reducing the value of USD.
This vicious circle of declining value and increasing inflation will continue into hyperinflation.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:32 pm

Still not explaining how the money is going to get into the hands of Joe Sixpac via wages, or outright handouts. The housing bubble handout has failed.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 7:41 pm

Annual change in Adjusted Monetary Base, and hence, all other monies, has a long way to catch up to inflation, let alone hyperinflation:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?chart_type=line&s1id=BASE&s1transformation=pc1

garylee April 6, 2011 at 3:13 pm

You should read Don Wolanchuk for awhile, will make Jim Willie look like child’s play

Valence Tech & Market Talk With Don Wolanchuk
http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/subject.aspx?subjectid=52296

Waterman Jim April 6, 2011 at 3:17 pm

Rick,

I think one the best arguments beside housing and wages is, as you said,
Why would the Fed spend the last 100 yrs working to put America/The world into debt, to then just let us off the hook with hyperinflation?

Consider this half baked scenario i’ve been working on for the introduction of a world currency i’m calling the “Worldo”, a quick outline..

They create the problem-
-When TPTB are ready, they let/make the market crash.
-The dollar soars as everyone panic sells (buying dollars).

then the predictable reaction-
-other currencies drop compared to dollar
-Inflation runs wild overseas forcing nations to cry out for a stable world currency.
-If you hold lots of dollars(fed, China, Russia, banks) you are happy and going shopping.
_If you owe lots of dollars – you are hating life.

and a ready made solution-
- IMF/UN Introduces the “Worldo”. The new world currency that will fix our world currency crisis.
-Offer a very a attractive exchange rate to dollar borrowers like 2:1 dollars/Worldos to seemingly lessen their debt.
-Force the laws thru while america is held hostage by a crashed market and voila.. the top of the pyramid falls into place.
-Start reflating the Worldo

Rich April 6, 2011 at 7:43 pm

Bilderberg Soros working on Bancor/Worldo this weekend at Bretton Woods II. Good luck with that…

fallingman April 7, 2011 at 3:15 am

Compelling.

john brefeld April 6, 2011 at 3:23 pm

I had to read all the way to the bottom to find the correct ‘answer’. Congrats Mike L.
Most people think HI is an extension of inflation when it is just the opposite. Another ‘theme’ I see while reading is the notion that the world consists of the USA…period. Sorry, Charlie, it is when the rest of the world decides to act that we will finally settle this issue.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 5:25 pm

Nuclear intervention, who’s the biggest bully, and who will be tried in what court for war crimes ? Today France is trading war crime for Oil on the front. But, the U.S. is still the biggest bully who has not seen the master’s switch in punishment. Wars start for economic reasons, and economics between Nations is just war.

Rien April 6, 2011 at 3:50 pm

Rick, what do you think of the argument that a hyperinflation is only possible if there is at least one foreign (outside) currency available to swap your local currency for?

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 3:58 pm

Eliminating currency swaps wouldn’t suppress hyperinflation, which would begin anyway with soaring prices for domestic goods. At that point, prices for “illegal” foreign goods would rise whether we could buy them or not.

Joe C. April 6, 2011 at 4:08 pm

Forget Gonzalo Lira’s reply to Rick.

FOFOA does a far more effective and thorough axe job on the deflationist nonsense. And FOFOA is civil and a gentleman while doing so.

DiverCity April 6, 2011 at 4:38 pm

Quite correct, which is why I haven’t even read Lira’s reply. Rick was probably much too kind to him.

&&&&

Yes, Diver, I was much too kind. My model for gentlemanly behavior in argumentative discourse is William F. Buckley, as civil and polite a polemicist as ever there was. However, he was on record — just once! — as having lost it, after being called a “crypto-Nazi” by Gore Vidal on the Dick Cavett Show. Lira didn’t go that far, but he was definitely wearing his anus on his sleeve. RA

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:12 pm

Pray tell, an explanation in real terms. House behind me, nice white thing on 5 acres. B of A holds it as an asset at 700k. It will not bring 200k, and B of A is not trying to sell the house.

Is the 500k vapor inflationary, or deflationary?

Since the major asset of all Americans is a ‘home’, what is the possibility? Commodity prices are going up. Wages are going down in America. Jobs are disappearing in America. American businesses in China are facing wage increases of 30% a year for the next 5 years = more individual Chinese to buy Chinese products, that Americans cannot afford because of ‘debt load’.

The reason for disappearing jobs in America is because of stupid/ignorant corporate practices allowed by the legislative branch, and the people who wanted ‘cheap’ from China/Walmart. The U.S. cannot get high paying jobs back into these states until something drastic happens. Without high paying jobs, in relative terms, there isn’t going to be the ability to inflate housing. There isn’t any means to ‘loan’ to other than the top 10%. Interest rates are already near the bottom.

If the C.E.O. of Microsoft continues to make 17m a year, and Joe is making less and less – class warfare at the legislative level, or in the streets. Everyone at Microsoft is in the top 10% and never felt a recession, have no idea there is hard times for anyone.

The major asset class in these states is a home in FEE, tenant in fee. The government does not count increasing, or decreasing housing prices in its inflation/deflation debate, yet; other words can be heard and understood by Ben. Ben is worried because of accounting fraud in housing.

We had our hyperinflation in housing, and it pumped bucks into the economy on individual terms as new loans were taken by individuals, and given out by ruthless banks and banksters, and especially pushed in fraud by the likes of BIG Barney and his committee.

We are all ‘loaned up’ people. The hyperinflation of housing, the greatest American asset class, is still on the books, and unrealised (federal accounting fraud) because no one is selling (so few it doesn’t matter) their home. Good ole’ B of A holds a mortgage for 200k against your house which might be sold for 140k, and B of A tells a bean counter to put the asset backing the loan at a value of 295k. B of A owns the 295k asset ‘house’ claimed until the debt is paid in full. Yet, B of A cannot make housing loans so is investing in the stock market – yes ? A small percentage have ‘paper wealth’ in the stock market, based upon a hyperinflationary binge (QE —-+) by the banks, and the fed – which has not worked very well – leaving more debt via forced loans by the legislative branch.

We had our hyperinflation in housing via a debt binge. Who is going to borrow to inflate the accounting deflation that is as of yet unreported? The inflationary binge of easy credit by lie is over.

Most of the rest of the arguments are High Powered, Brain Washed, Higher Education garbage. It seems as if a Doctorate Degree has become a sign of inablity to think outside the social scheme of mobocracy and self serving control of others taught by about 5 University presidents.

Zeus Yiamouyiannis April 6, 2011 at 4:11 pm

Both Rick and Gonzalo left out the obvious third way– debt forgiveness. No… debt does not have to be paid by someone; it can be absolved, especially debt created upon fraudulent and/or counterfeit-ridden practice.

We already know, as Rick implies in the above article, that derivatives are simply 100’s of trillions of dollars of worthless private scrip, traded and valued as if it were real wealth. Well, derivatives are not real wealth, and neither was the ostensible climb in the values of housing resting in large part on those phony-wealth derivatives.

The only “real wealth” here revolves around ability to produce real and needed goods (to allow us to survive), and the ability to create something that increases one’s quality of life (to promote our thriving). Precious little of the present global economy involves either one of these.

We have got to simply clear out the junk in our attic. Yeah, if we use FASB standards and Goldman Sachs accounting, we can pretend our worthless junk is all really simply very rare, “unique condition” collectibles worth trillions of dollars.

I’ve got a better idea. Take our financial junk out of the global attic in boxes, put them out on the front lawn, and see if anyone wants to pay a few bucks for the various items, give away the leftovers to anyone interested passing on the sidewalk, and recycle, donate, or dispose of the rest.

It’s a moving sale, and if our economy is going to get moving, maybe we ought to have one.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:19 pm

This ‘debt’ you speak of is control by slavery. The great “They” is not going to unslave you, and that is all the debt is about. Everyone must be sheared, and the few who really know are not going to let you go. Even now there is a problem because the “They” need more wool than you can give.

fallingman April 7, 2011 at 3:19 am

Debt = Slavery…exactly. The new feudalism.

How often does the master voluntarily free the slave? Come on.

Martin C April 6, 2011 at 4:17 pm

Makes me wonder if USA’s incredibly backward approach to Credit card security (Magnetic Stripe and signature transactions) are virtually unheard of in Europe now.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:20 pm

Martin, how is Europe providing ’security’ and at what cost ?

Peter April 6, 2011 at 4:19 pm

Jim Richards has made it clear that M2 is big enough to make gold reach how much? $3000/oz or $5000/oz, and at that price gold is only accounted for 30c on each dollar in circulation.

Rick I think you are wrong.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:22 pm

Peter, a Dollar is 371 4/16ths grains of fine silver in a Coin coined by the Mint as Legal Tender. Eagles are valued at 50 Dollars.

The rest of what you are saying is high doctorate garbage via the fraud that enslaves.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 7:51 pm

American Gold Eagles have a $50 Legal Tender Face Value.
American Silver Eagles have a $1 Legal Tender Face Value.
Both may be used to fund IRAs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Silver_Eagle

zbd352 April 6, 2011 at 4:43 pm

Hello Rick, whatever the result, we are awaiting to get the name of the asset that you talked about at the beginning of the week to buy before the big jump. Which one(s) is/are it/they ? And you said they were cheap… don’t tell me gold/silver otherwise you’d see them skyrocketing !

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 9:52 pm

Stay tuned, Zb. The promised revelation was pushed back a couple of days by the deflation date, and now by a piece on the bee die-off that I have been holding for too long and which is set to run on Thursday.

Cam Fitzgerald April 7, 2011 at 2:20 pm

Good to hear Thursday is Bee-Day.

The one objection I had to the article did not come through in the end. He just did not like my references to chemicals being a hazard but offered no conclusive evidence for his case. Nothing came of it.

So let her rip. I won’t send you an e-mail now that I know all this hyperinflation discussion is starting to wear thin for you. Your family problably misses you while all of us strangers out in electronic world each take a sliver of your time.

Chris T. April 6, 2011 at 5:07 pm

Rick writes:
“Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen?”

Good point
If that situation could cause them real harm they certainly would not.
But, is it conceivable, that if they found a way not to be harmed by that situation (let alone a way to benefit from it), then they would let it (cause it) to happen?

One way would be for them to have no hyperinflation exposure, by being in all those real assets that do not suffer from h-i (PMs, certain real estate, etc).

This is not be read as taking a side on this argument, just a conceptual scenario for this question.
Regards.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:30 pm

Everyone is forgetting class warfare, and I mean real warfare should the ‘haves’ get away free and easy. The “They” all know this which is why there are so many lies being told via accounting. The “They” have invested in the beasts of the field, and the credit represented by work of the hands. The “They” want to own YOU, and they DO. For security have Yee given away your credit to others who now hold title to you, who are the most valuable of all things. Everything is relative, only having to sell or buy right now causes pain. The “They” are able to weather the storm in their castles, and with their stores until a balance is found, and a number assigned to the ‘value’ of the life/work of a beast in the field. I do not care if it is 10, or 100000000000000000, it is simple zeros in a balanced field of play, if that be a value fixed upon a Man’s work during his lifetime.

Desert Dan April 6, 2011 at 5:11 pm

If you follow the deflationist’s logic (Prector Dow 600) Harry Dent (Oil $10-20 for the decade of the 2010’s) then the dollar will become like a precious egg. So the typical social security recipient getting $1100/month will be in hog heaven; taking vacations to Europe, getting plastic surgery, buying monster RV’s, paying for grandkid’s college….think about it…

Rich April 6, 2011 at 7:58 pm

Or Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security may default, as governments always did, according to Adam Smith, Scottish Customs (Tax) Commissioner and author of The Wealth of Nations in 1776, an auspicious year for freedom and prosperity…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 10:56 pm

Social Security payouts, as far as I know, have always or almost always been below the rate of inflation. This will not change. Why would it, when, from the perspective of the Masters, $1,100/mo in deflationary times is about right for a modern day mortgage and CoL?

All SSI will do is see more retirees having to make very tough choices in their “golden” years. And if they don’t, well, there’s always other places said retiree can go (or be put) that isn’t vacation paradise.

Cam Fitzgerald April 7, 2011 at 6:43 pm

First Dan, Social security is indexed to inflation and thus the amount the government pays out would fall during a deflationary period. Indexing swings both ways.

Second, as Government began to seriously grapple with the debt bomb going off it’s own resources will become strangled and eventually its hands will be forced to simply reduce payments to retirees.

Not only that, but it will very likely make bitter cuts in most social programs, in health care spending, in major cherished programs and perhaps even the military (eventually).

As government becomes a smaller part of the spending machinery that makes up such a huge part of the economy then the real pain begins to kick in for everyone else and real wages begin to fall as unemployment rises to unimaginable highs. You cannot remove 20 or 30% of Government spending from the system without raising unemployment rates.

Surplus labour in turn, generally drives down wages. Property values and the values of a wide assortment of assets can then plummet leaving nothing but debt for the survivors to pay off. If nobody has much in the way of cash then suddenly that prize antique car in the garage is little more than a heap of metal. This is already hapening in fact.

When you look at the response that some States and Municipalities have taken to managing their own debt crisis you can well imagine how this same kind of scenario will play out from the Federal level too. Cuts become widespread and everyone takes a haircut.

Look to the Austerity programs in England for a perfect example of how the pain is being spread around. How retirement ages are being increased or under review, where social spending is being reduced, childcare programs axed or severely curtailed, military spending put off to the future etcetera. All this on top of several hundred thousand layoffs in the public sector. Whew!!

For the US the experience will be similar. It could entail deep cutbacks too in some areas and new sets of priorities as the money dries up. Rising interest rates only make this situation much more difficult to bear as a growing percentage of tax revenue and national income must be used to service debts.

This is why I believe that should we enter a major deflationary cycle that it coulds easily run more than a decade as squabbles over setting priorities just push solutions off to later dates and the electorate use their vote to try to win the concessions they seek for themselves. Seniors for example are a big voting bloc and can easily sway government to their own priorities above those of others.

Won’t help though. Pensions and health care are two of the biggest budget items and both will have to be pared to make ends meet.

And that is why retirees will not be living the good life under a deflationary regime Dan. On the contrary they should be quite miserable.

PhotoRadarScam April 6, 2011 at 5:14 pm

Still waiting for someone this answer the response to: “Someday very soon, following the precipitous failure of the world’s banks and securities markets, we will all be too broke to push the price of anything sky-high.”

I am not an expert on Zimbabwe, but how did the common folks of ZMB wind up with $1M and $1B (ZMB) notes if they were all broke? How did the ZMB populous manage to push prices (in ZMB) so high?

Rich April 6, 2011 at 8:08 pm

The common folks did not, unless they worked for the government or stole them, same difference.
They bartered a piece of fruit for a bottle of Coke beyond government control, why Uncle was so eager to put Bernard von NotHaus away for good and confiscate Hawaii Mint and Liberty Dollars.
Zimbabwe actually has deflation now after relying on, dare we say it, the almighty dollar…

http://www.aleablog.com/deflation-in-zimbabwe/

PhotoRadarScam April 6, 2011 at 9:59 pm

Deflation will always come after inflation, and inflation after deflation, as neither can go on forever.

But do you mean to tell me that if I were to have gone to a restaraunt in ZMB at the height of inflation, and they charge me $20Mzmb for my burger and fries, that the restaurant employees aren’t earning perhaps 10% of the cost of a meal per day (equivalent to $1/day in the US if you figure a burger & fries meal costs $10), in this case $2Mzmb? I’m not buying that the whole economy was barter-based (although I’m sure a large part of it was) and that common-folk never touched the 7 and 10 digit notes. If you have personal experience or a reference please share it.

Chris T. April 6, 2011 at 5:19 pm

“Try to withdraw $25,000 from your own branch if you want to find out the truth”.

I have (not really intending to, but you get their reaction PRIOR to them checking your balance!), and you are right.

“Oh no, we don’t keep that amount on hand, but we can give you a cashiers check”.
Then you are told to pre-order, or go to the headquartes, etc. And of course they give you the scare of the reportability, and so on.

AND, that is in a no-bank-run situation.

This is to Rick’s long term point, that there is a limit to the physical printing capabilities, and in those situations, short of getting the people to accept multiple “0″ bills, where paper-money will be a limited supply good, as opposed to the digital entry “money”.

There is clearly a push to get us ever more away from physical money, period, even the one-ply-one-sheet only kind.
In NL, they are already well on their way, large stores accept no cash, banks dispense none, other than tiny ATM amounts, and so on.

The Bundesbank as of this year is distributing all coined money only in tons-heavy master cases worth hundreds of thousands of EUR, closing its local branches, so that stores other than the big box ones have almost no affordable way left of obtaining (or returning) coinage.
The paper bills will be next.

Brave new digital world.

Carol April 6, 2011 at 5:46 pm

What am I missing here? Why do you all keep saying that hyper can only happen with physical pieces of paper? Why can’t hyper happen with digital plastic money?

I am a software engineer and I have written lots of software for many applications including the space station and banks – Big Banks, including at least 2 of the top TBTF banks. I can tell you it would take 1 day to create the software required to handle “old USD” and “new USD” accounts on one card. Even with paper money there needs to be some mechanism to swap the currency from “old” to “new” this could happen simply and even automatically using digital money. Actually it would even be easier with digital money.

We do NOT need to have physical paper dollars to facilitate hyperinflation .. period. That is a totally incorrect assumption.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:38 pm

Yes, but; there must be credit to borrrow with, or value to extend in purchase. Where am I to get the 10,000.00 note if all I make is 1.00 an hour? Wages must drastically increase, and if the ‘they’ think they are going to get screwed there will be no wage increases. Are your wages going UP, are you in the top 10 who can say yes ?

Carol April 6, 2011 at 7:10 pm

Steve,

understood. No my income has gone down by over 50% since the year 2000 (tech bubble days).

My point was ONLY that this argument that we need to use paper money and that only the use of paper money would allow a hyper inflation is INCORRECT.

Yes there are many other sundry arguements that are not address.

If anyone cares to state the “fact” that paper money is needed to have a hyperinflation let them explain WHY that is so.

&&&&&&

Oh, please. I wish you would start thinking this stuff through, starting with the fine print in your bank’s disclosure statements. When you’ve gone over the rules that the bank’s lawyers took six years to draft, modify and perfect, decide which of them need to be broken. Then play it all forward: add three hypothetical zeroes (five zeroes? eight? ten? rationed according to your last tax filing?) to your credit limit (raised by Congressional mandate? by Presidential edict? by papal edict? on the basis of your credit score?); and assume, as you continue to argue your case, that millions (tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) of Americans have been similarly endowed overnight (through luck? a lottery? House/Senate committee design? worthiness? branch-bank policy? zip code? net worth? average income for the years 2005-2010) RA

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:53 pm

Carol, all that is needed is money in excess available to the people who then chase too few products (does not matter what the money is, as long as it is available). U.S. subjects have tons of debt, and no viable credit left. China, Japan, and other countries are shoving product out the door too fast because they have excess money, and now look like they are going to fuel their inflation with 30% a year wage increases. China will feel huge inflation, and the cost of goods will go up in China, and the U.S., where wages are not going up.

Who has the credit in the U.S. to chase products ?

Fear of the loss of electronic clicks will send people running for paper as a tangible thing to feel secure. The paper is then shoved at product.

Our problem is that Americans have no credit to obtain product, and wages are falling except for the top 10%. Ben cannot inflate at over 2% a year without getting singed. Ben now uses lies to deny that inflation, and still keeps downward pressure on wages to put profits into the hands of the top 10%.

Money is anything two people agree it is. And too much money and too little product will inflate. As I read it, the German hyperinflation was caused by government intervention to drive wages up. The main cause was the abuses of the forced treaty to end WWI.

The result was WWII. Where are we going ?

Carol April 6, 2011 at 11:16 pm

Steve and Rick,

neither of you has addressed my point. My point was simply that paper money OR electronic money can BOTH be used equally during a hyperinflation. Sure paper money seems prettier for the pictures of kids holding gazillion dollar bills (vs a kid holding a debit card).

Neither of you showed my WHY we could not use electronic money in a hyperinflation scenario. Really I am just trying to understand this point being made that we would need to be on a paper system inorder for hyperinflation to take hold – I just don’t get that point at all.

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 11:22 pm

Carol,

You make a very broad assumption that digital will somehow change the minds of the Masters. In fact, it would be much easier for them to control against HI using digital. See my first post.

And again, as Rick pointed out, employers were allowed to print during the Weimar fiasco. I have serious doubts such privilege will be allowed again. For one, unions are not as powerful as they once were. Two, letting private employers with such a need
to print/enter at will are large corporations that can and will keep wages low enough. Still, any that key in digits without autorization will, as now, be guilty of hacking and counterfeiting.

Carol April 6, 2011 at 11:39 pm

Benjamin April 6, 2011 at 11:22 pm

Benjamin -> ” You make a very broad assumption that digital will somehow change the minds of the Masters. ”

I assumed no such thing. My ONLY point was that paper or electronic is the same. Paper is what was predominently used in those economies that have experienced HI. Paper did NOT cause the HI it just facilitated the transactions. Electronic will ALSO faciliate HI in just the same ways as paper did in those economies.

Benjamin -> “as Rick pointed out, employers were allowed to print during the Weimar fiasco. I have serious doubts such privilege will be allowed again. ”

in weimar they HAD to keep the presses printing because paper was the only mechanism to pay anyone with. I can’t see why employers today would not be able to make “direct deposits” into employees account twice a day or ten times a day if that is what they wanted to do. Now how are the employers going to get the money to put into those accounts? Well that is a DIFFERENT issue all together. I am NOT guessing I am not saying we will or won’t have HI ALL I am saying is that electronic money would work just the same as paper money IF HI was to come.

Benjamin -> “letting private employers with such a need to print/enter at will are large corporations that can and will keep wages low enough. Still, any that key in digits without autorization will, as now, be guilty of hacking and counterfeiting.”

NO they would ONLY be guilty of check kiting and since the whole money system is promulgated on check kiting (by the fed) that would not really be a crime (lol just kidding). But seriously check kiting is the proper “crime” that they would be committing.

Benjamin April 7, 2011 at 12:53 am

Carol,

“I assumed no such thing. My ONLY point was that paper or electronic is the same.”

Alright. And how does that change anything? How does that make it so that HI is inevitable, a natural occruance over which the bankers have no power to prevent?

It doesn’t. About the most your inquerry (no offense) reveals is why we don’t use dung for money. Everyone would then be out of debt, and up to our startosphere in… EWWW yuck! With central bank currency, wheather digits or papers…

While I can write checks that amount to 1,000 times greater than what my account has in it, I’ll not get away with the crime for long. By the same token, I cannot log on to my old forex account and trade dollars for dongs, then dongs for Mexican, Mexican for Zimbabwe, then, finally, Z$ for USD. I don’t remember the exact order, but prior to trading currencies, I saw that for every 10 USD I could make 700 back on such a trade. But that is forbidden, for obvious reasons.

What you speak of is a world without rules. And without them, yes, there is no difference. But that’s not how it is. And if the rules are tossed out, heck, we won’t even have to bother with printing/entering.

And therein lies a key flaw of the hyperinflationist argument. HI happened in Weimar, and everywhere else, precisely because the masses still saw the currency as valuable. They wouldn’t allow it to be over-issued if they didn’t see value in pursuing that course. Put another way…

HI is when the issuer loses advantage in their issued currency, not the masses losing faith in it. Once J6P (cousin of C3P0) has enough to pay off his debts, there is nothing more to gain for the bankers; no debt = no demand for their money. So they start over again. And therein lies another blow to the hyperinflationists’ points: How does it always manage to start over again even after people “lost faith”?

Simple. Faith in their currency is not lost. THEY lose advantage. However, it serves them better to keep it going. And right now, in the U.S., cutback is the name of the game. Not only that but as those set in and increase, those “betrayed” by their government will join in, if only out of spite. HI will result only when the banksters have no other choice. Right now, they have a choice and have the support. Therefore, they choose depression.

occam's razor April 6, 2011 at 5:32 pm

‘Myers stated, with elegant simplicity, that “Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender.” ‘

All debts WILL BE payable @ USDX .01, and your precious law will remain immutable.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:40 pm

Really ? .01

The boyz are going to emancipate everyone from slavery for 1 penny on the Dollar fiat ?

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 10:08 pm

One–cent dollars wouldn’t remotely begin to cover it, Occam. Remember, it is a quadrillion-dollar credit edifice that would need to be redeemed. Better, perhaps, that each household be able to gin up its own money, using notepads and rubber stamps with lots of zeroes.

Rick J April 6, 2011 at 5:49 pm

I think we are all agreed that the house is going to burn down, so this inflation/deflation debate amounts to determining how the fire will manifest. If we have an inflationary depression style hyperinflation the risk of a complete breakdown in social order is higher than if we have a deflationary depression. But to think that any outcome which is best for the people is in any way foremost in the thoughts of those who control the script is folly. Those who have the most power, which would surely be those who can issue money out of thin air and those who make huge amounts of money by facilitating that process…aka banks, will do whatever they need to do to maintain that power, that right, that control. To do anything else would amount to our leaders in these fields admitting they were wrong and surrendering power, money, livelihood.
Can you imagine the head of a major bank calling a press conference and admitting that derivatives were an evil tool they used to declare whatever profits they wanted in order to collect whatever bonuses they wanted? Or that derivatives were an ideal garbage can which used to collect losses forever, called the “that doesn`t count fund?”…….that he was sorry he took Tarp funds and QE5 funds in a hapless attempt to rescue his bonus, his job,his reputation and shareholders, followed by an apology and resignation?
Can you imagine the President offering a Churchill style speech, offering nothing but the financial equivalent of blood,sweat and tears? I cannot.
I think those in control will choose the path of least resistance and maximum hope (at least in a sale-ible sense) The hope that they can get the economy going again with some demand pull inflation. If that means sending checks to people instead of banks, maybe they will try that next.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 6:44 pm

Its easy. Every day there is an AP article saying so and so got 20m this year. The middle class is getting less and less, while the top 10% feel no pain. This will not go on forever, and the “They” know this.

The fed has already sent checks to individuals – it didn’t work. The U.S. does not have a real economy – it is smoke and mirrors and selling banking or I.P.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 8:26 pm

“So, under what circumstances would bullion not be a great asset? Anyone?”

Well, in 2008, gold fell – 31% from $989.60 in July to $681 in October.

From 1980, Gold fell -75% from $1050 in January to 255.80 in late 1999, 20 years later.

“Do not save riches for yourselves here on earth, where moths and rust destroy, and robbers break in and steal.”

“Don’t put your confidence in powerful people; there is no help for you there.”…

Robert April 6, 2011 at 5:55 pm

Great article Rick-

so, let’s summarize:

1) If a hyperinflation occurs- Bullion is necessary to preserve purchasing power (or even gain wealth)
2) If a deflation occurs, bullion is necessary as the “currency of last resort” to expunge oppressive debts.
3) If a slow, grinding stagflation occurs (my personal viewpoint of choice), then bullion is necessary to again preserve purchasing power.

So, under what circumstances would bullion not be a great asset?

Anyone?

I still grind my gears incessantly on the question of what percentage (measured in Gold ounces) of one’s net worth should be in physical bullion?

example, if my current net worth divided by a Gold price of 1450 equaled 1000 ounces, then how many of those ounces should be coins and bars?

10%?
50%?

I think my current number hovers around 15-20%, and I debate with myself about whether or not to visit the coin dealer more often…

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:09 pm

Robert, how much can you grab, run with, and protect during deflation, or inflation disorder?

Gold has no value when grain, or water is more important. Gold has no value when the skill to gather and preserve is more important. Gold has marginal value when the government demands back their property, ie; gold, from the enfranchisees created legislatively. Gold has no value if one does not have enough of a necessity, or believe he can get more of the necessity at gain.

Robert, think about what one intends to purchase – is it Cars, or Houses with one piece of metal ? What will one need the most and what is the most likely ‘value’ of a single piece of metal to obtain that single item? One does not want to go to the ‘market’ with a bar and a hatchet and begin chopping off chunks of metal. (has been done, but very dangerous). If I grow excess grain, I may take a dime if I might need to run, or get something else I need from someone who has excess, but does not want grain.

Think of it in two ways. What if I am stationary and need to buy single items. And what is best if I need to run. Will I need to buy a house, land, or a machine. Or, will I need to buy a loaf of bread, or measure of wheat? It is hard to run with a sack of junk. And, its hard to buy a loaf of bread with an Eagle. Igots, of what value if one has to have a hatchet and a scale to trade ?

Inflation/deflation a Dollar is still 371 4/16ths grains of fine silver in a Coin struck as Legal Tender.

I guess the saying is very boring – an Eagle in 1840 bought a suit, and today an Eagle buys a suit. A 1/10 Dollar got a loaf of bread in 1840, and today the same. There is some short term variation because of greed speculation, but; over the long haul. . . .

hans wurst April 6, 2011 at 6:48 pm

real estate as inflation hedge is a misconception. in weimar real estate was a very bad investment. “lastenausgleich” forced upon the people a state mortgage on their real estate investment. payable for the next 20 years. i am sure should hyperinflation hit something similar would be in the making for the real estate holders, forcing the price of real estate down as soon as the crisis is over.
the second misconception is about this discussion hyperinflation or deflation. hyperinflation is ALWAYS deflationary. the price is rising sky high, but there is always less money than needed. there is never “enough” money. and hyperinflation is deflation in real wealth like gold for example. so both are right hyperinflation in cash and deflation against gold (real wealth) Stories from weimar: you could buy one house in middle berlin for one ounce of gold. if this isnt hyperdeflation then what is? while at the same time cash was getting worthless by the minute.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:14 pm

Great insight. In the U.S. there is a general and paramount lien for ‘use’ of federal reserve notes. The 450k slice of the forced debt is already a lien against the house via the Banking Act of 1913. For a family of 4 there is a 1.8m lien against all property discharged via federal reserve note.

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 10:12 pm

Farm-able real estate was the best investment you could have made before the Weimar hyperinflation went parabolic. I have mentioned here numerous times that Germans who borrowed 100% to buy farmland at this time were able to retire their mortgages with proceeds from the first harvest (of potatoes, for one).

pointsman April 6, 2011 at 6:59 pm

“Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender.” Inflationists and deflationists implicitly agree on this point — we are all ruinists at heart, as our readers will long since have surmised, and we differ only on the question of who, borrower or lender, will take the hit.

The ignorance of history in this statement is astonishing. Germany’s post-WWI debts: never repaid; Lend-Lease ; debts: never repaid; shall I go on? How many countries have defaulted on their debt? WTF?

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:20 pm

OKay, pointsman – so you, or your dad, or your grandad paid the debts either directly through illegitimate taxation to the feds, or through forced usury via a bankster. The fiddler was paid one way or another.

Most WWI debt was a con on Germany that brought about WWII.

Most important pointsman – the American was at Liberty in 1910, and now the U.S. subject is born into slavery.

Who paid pointsman – you with your Liberty.

bill April 6, 2011 at 7:20 pm

pointsman,

when a debt is defaulted on then who gets screwed? The lender who didn’t get paid. Therefore the lender lost the funds (digits) he lent, in essence then he iw the one who “paid” the debt by not getting paid. The saving doesn’t mean litterally that the lender has to pay off the debt just that him being “stiffed” didn’t get paid

hans wurst April 6, 2011 at 7:21 pm

you didnt get the point i think. the debt is payed by the debtor which extinguishes the debt. or it is payed by the lendor (he looses 100% of his investment) so debt is always beeing payed. by whom is the question. if the lendor defaults or not by taking the hit is another question.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 8:32 pm

70 M paid with their lives during WWII.
Another 100 M during Mao, Hussein, PolPot, Stalin.
Savers and workers paid, as the dollar lost 98.7% of its value in gold from 1913 until today…

JJ April 6, 2011 at 7:17 pm

All cycles are inflationary at first, then deflationary. The fed has tried to pump up several bubbles already only to have them crash and deflate. Thats their game and thats what they call an economy. In 2000 it was tech and people were touting it as more important than anything, so money rushed in but didn’t last, now tech is a deflationary cycle. The fed then tried to pump housing figuring that people would fight to make mortgage payments no matter what. Money rushed in, then crashed when they found out that people can walk and rent.

Now they are trying to inflate the final bubble, commodities figuring that no matter what, people will have to spend on food and fuel, gas and electricity, the basics of life. They may be right this time.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:26 pm

How old is this ? Back to Tulips, and then a 1000 years more? People do not ‘have’ to spend.

The basics of Life are subsistence, gathering & taking.

What can one do for themselves, that they now find security in others doing?

Reply

Steve April 6, 2011 at 7:25 pm

How old is this ? Back to Tulips, and then a 1000 years more? People do not ‘have’ to spend.

The basics of Life are subsistence, gathering & taking.

What can one do for themselves, that they now find security in others doing?

JJ April 6, 2011 at 10:37 pm

Yes they have to spend because 90% are not able to provide the basics for themselves. 100 years ago we were agrarian and self sufficient. Today, 50% of the people have no useful skills at all related to survival. People will spend 100% of their disposable income on food if they have to because they don’t know another way.

Brian April 6, 2011 at 7:37 pm

Rick,

I think you have missed two incredibly important points in your argument that I believe lead to the failure of your argument. First, you state:

“Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen? The obvious answer is that they wouldn’t. And won’t.”

You have made an implicit assumption that the “rich and powerful men” are still able to control the system. This may not be the case, and I believe that it is indeed not the case.

Second, and more importantly, you have not referenced the impacts of the loss of faith in the US currency by the holders of the US debt. More specifically, the Chinese, the ME OPEC countries, and Japan (to a lesser degree). Once they start to dispose of their US debt holdings, the US can either stop spending or they can monetize all of the government spending through the Fed. Once this happens, only a fool would hold US$.

These two points lead me to believe that there is no middle ground, to which you have stated your support. However, I believe the US is in an unstable, short-lived, bifurcated deflationary/inflationary situation right now. At some point in the not too distant future, the debt purchasers and holders will lose patience and/or faith and dump their debt holdings – the first one off the boat will lose the least. When this happens, hyperinflation is what I believe will be the outcome…. regardless of what the “rich and powerful men” want to happen.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 8:08 pm

China cannot sell, if the U.S. does not buy. U.S. cannot continue to buy if China does not take the debt.

China must create hyper-inflation to survive if the U.S. does not buy (looks like China is taking on German theory of forced wage increases). The U.S. citizen is a net debtor. The Chinese citizen a net saver. How quickly can the Chinese citizen be convinced to take on the debt that killed the U.S. citizen?

Imported costs of products are going up, wages are going down in the U.S. = too few dollars chasing too much product. Maybe the people of the cities of America can go into the suburbs and pound flax to weave linen by hand for export, and thereby start industry over again. Any way one looks at it, it appears that the U.S. is going down in standards, and China will be coming up, even if its hyper-inflated in China.

Rich April 6, 2011 at 8:37 pm

You can bet everything you own against the rich and powerful and wake up broken.

Only poor fools bet everything on the lottery.

Bill Gross already sold his Treasuries and may be waiting to buy them back at higher yields when the markets break into deflation…

Wyz April 6, 2011 at 9:24 pm

Brian,
Finally a reply that states the issue I see with Rick’s question. The question has an “implicit assumption”, and that is the FED and others can control the system, and will be successful controlling it.

As analogy, drivers can control their car, and usually successfully. But every so often control is lost, and of those some are catastrophic. And if you are under control, what of those around you. Or those that deliberately drive to cause problems for others (as Soros to the Bank of England, probably based on inside information on how they soul react).

If the FED and their banking interests succeed in their control, then Rick’s analysis is sound. But that is an assumption I can’t take as a given, but only as a possibility.

&&&&&&&

Deflation can be efficiently managed once it has taken root, mainly by expediting casualties through the bankruptcy courts while survivors learns to cope with a precipitous decline in the standard of living. Hyperinflation, on the other hand, cannot be managed at all for reasons that I spell out in my essay. As I also noted, hyperinflation can occur only if a government willfully and deliberately causes it to occur. Deflation, on the other hand, can take hold regardless of whether anyone wants it (no one does). RA

Wyz April 6, 2011 at 9:27 pm

Edit: “how they would react”

Brian April 6, 2011 at 9:57 pm

Steve,

Steve,

Based on the US debt requirements, the Chinese and other current debt purchasers may simply need to stop buying US debt. That could very well be the minimum action to drive a US collapse and subsequently lead to HI. The Chinese have already been buying PMs, striking trade deals that do not use the US$, and talking up the move to a new global reserve currency. None of this bodes well for the US or the greenback.

One also needs to remember that, even in extreme circumstances, the lender usually has the upper hand in any negotiation. The US has a very weak position right now.

Rick Ackerman April 6, 2011 at 10:35 pm

You haven’t met a reasonable standard of proof on either count, Brian, for in fact: 1) I have not omitted anything of “incredible” importance; and, 2) your post-mortem of foreign dollar holders’ loss of faith does not consider what might have occurred, economically and financially speaking, to bring them to that point.

And while I agree that foreign holders of U.S. debt will eventually dump all of it, I cannot fathom how the resulting spike in real interest rates would be inflationary. There is that chance — as Peter Schiff has explained — that the Fed will monetize every Treasury bill, bond and note that comes to auction. But that would not necessarily be inflationary either, since it would spike the dollar toward worthless in an hour. At that point, a Mercedes Benz would be out of reach for all of us. But is that (hyper)inflationary?

mario cavolo April 7, 2011 at 3:40 am

Bingo Steve…the mercantile strategy is still alive and well until things may fall apart at the seams.

In China all standards and prices in the society are going up and that includes very high inflation. I suggest in the real world its been about 10% /quarter this past year. Wages are also going up. And as you said, China’s inflation is therefore going to be exported in higher prices to the U.S. where middle class wages are not rising. That’s big trouble for the middle class there as has been discussed here countless times.

Brian April 7, 2011 at 6:43 pm

Rick,

My first comment required no proof.

With Point 1 simply stated that you has made an assumption without providing support. Can you provide support for your assertion that the “rich and powerful men” can control the situation now that they have opened a proverbial Pandora’s box?

With Point 2 I simply noted that you had not presented any consideration for the impact of decisions by foreign debt holders. My description of the impacts was speculative and I did not say that the scenario I described would happen, only that it could happen and would be catastrophic. Facts can be easily found regarding the move to other currencies and to PMs, so I will leave that to you to search. ZeroHedge has a plethora of articles and hard facts that demonstrate that foreign debt holders are already acting in their best interests.

Lastly, you state:
“There is that chance — as Peter Schiff has explained — that the Fed will monetize every Treasury bill, bond and note that comes to auction. But that would not necessarily be inflationary either, since it would spike the dollar toward worthless in an hour. At that point, a Mercedes Benz would be out of reach for all of us. But is that (hyper)inflationary?”

This statement shows me that you are contradicting yourself and actually do believe that HyperInflation can occur – just substitute ‘loaf of bread’ for Mercedes Benz and you have your answer in form that the average person can understand, and may experience soon. You appear to be conflating Inflation with HyperInflation. They are very, very different.

———

Mario,

From what I have read, China has been pursuing a mercantilist strategy for a long time, as have past empires (i.e., UK), and current empires (i.e., US). This appears to be one of the defining factors that successful empires need to have as a core policy. At present, China is experiencing price inflation (at least partially driven by the Fd QE policies) and wage inflation (as workers are taking advantage of some minor increases in their power vs. the owners of the capital infrastructure). In my opinion, this is normal inflation rather that the crisis situation that the US is in.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 8:49 pm

I’ve been waiting for this “imminent” commercial property collapse for years now. Anyway, there are a number of ways the colossal amount of reserves sitting at the Fed could enter the system. I haven’t seen any indication that the Fed has wanted these funds to enter the system, however, so there’s your answer (so far) as to why we haven’t seen massive inflation as of yet. The Fed is keeping these funds within their grasp, apparently as a primary focus of keeping the banks solvent and functioning. What will ultimately happen with these reserves? Will they just disappear like magic, or slowly enter the economy over a period of decades? Maybe the Fed has it all under control, I don’t know. But there are multiple ways for the inflationary dollars to find their way to your pocket, and without the need of your employer to have a printing press. It’s called asset inflation. Should we review how many dollars are held overseas? Foreigners are looking for deals, and as the dollar continues to slide, American asset are looking like a good deal to them. Will they keep buying up the new treasuries coming to market to fund our ever increasing deficit, and if so, at what prices? To what extent will the Fed have to continue to intervene? Oh, there will be deflation alright – in the value of your currency.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 10:07 pm

Hyper-inflation versus deflation. How many T shoved at the market, and real estate debt, and where are things ? How many years have you been waiting for commercial property to fall ? Because it is falling, has been falling, and if one just drives around a bit the banks are holding lots of empty space – but; once again accounting standards can make a purse out of a sow’s ear.

John April 6, 2011 at 9:12 pm

Pumped money is flowing into commodities which effectively pulls money out of the population through increased prices.

This drives demand down in other sectors which causes loss of jobs and leads to further pumping.

The current system runs backwards and will grind to a halt regardless of ones perspective on inflation/deflation.

We have both, and both will get worse.

Discussions like this are an attempt to find a way to adapt and convince ourselves we’ll retain our perceived position in society as this crisis deepens.

None of us will.

If you want to discuss something worthwhile why not delve into the legitimacy of a system in which Government activities are primarily funded by debt that is expected to be paid by the people, but the majority of activities the Government engages in negatively impacts those same people while enriching those who assume the debt?

Steve April 6, 2011 at 10:00 pm

The discussion is easy. Standing Case Law, The Trial of Thomas Earl of Strafford – its High Treason. Now whatchagonado – nothing !

John April 6, 2011 at 11:56 pm

Steve…

Snotty comments do not qualify as discussion.

You’re attempting to avoid my suggested topic by sidestepping it in favor of a challenge in order to feel superior, but by doing so you’re declaring your own inadequacy.

Man up, or shut up.

(see – I can do it too)

mario cavolo April 7, 2011 at 5:33 am

You too should get a room :)

Meanwhile, speaking of price being pumped up. Price in China are steadily rising. That’s the case more than anywhere in the cost of luxury goods here. The yacht industry is booming but a $5 million yacht here costs closer to 10 million. Luxury brands are far more expensive on the mainland than back in America or in Hong Kong, prompting the popularity of Hong Kong shopping runs too.

Cheers, Mario

phn April 6, 2011 at 9:19 pm

In debt forgiveness, the lender takes the hit. But converting private debt to public debt, which is happening in numerous ways, as Adam Smith said long ago, governments never pay their debt. Empires do collapse.

Steve April 6, 2011 at 10:03 pm

phn, American subjects don’t own anything. They are debtors in possession. The people are legislative creations of the 14th amendment, ie; subject enfranchisees in FEE. No one wants to know or accept the reality. Ignoring the truth does not make it inauthentic, or does it ?

Tom April 6, 2011 at 10:45 pm

Rick Question:
Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen?

Answer:
The rich and powerful men KNOW what is going to happen so they position themselves appropriately. As long as they KNOW what will happen they can make money from it.
They KNOW hyperinflation will occur so they prepare by buying real assets. Knowing the future is how you profit – and profit is all that rich people care about.

Rick Question:
How would the trillions of dollars get into the hands of Joe Sixpack?

Answer:
It doesn’t need to! If Joe Sixpack loses faith in the US$ he will ask for Canadian $ or Euro $ in payment.
Once the average person prefers Canadian dollars, what will happen to the value of the US$?

Rick your 2 main theories as to why hyperinflation can’t happen seem to be easily answered.

Steve April 7, 2011 at 12:23 am

There is an assumption that any other currency would be legal tender in the U.S. BAD ASSUMPTION

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 12:44 am

There IS no way to “position” yourself for a deflation, other than to stay out of debt. The spectacle of killer volatility in munis and Treasurys proves that there is virtually no safe asset (other than bullion) that you can simply buy and hold. And even if you are genius enough to keep moving your money around, if you make a mistake, you can take a big hit. I don’t believe that Soros is so smart that he can play this game of musical chairs without getting whacked time and again. Make enough mistakes, and a large fortune can turn into a small one.

Concerning loss of faith in the dollar, I am going to ask that those who say it will happen — and it absolutely will — describe the events leading up to that epiphany. Most crucially, I want you to tell me what will happen to mortgage borrowers and lenders as the dollar either sinks or collapses.

Rick J April 6, 2011 at 11:26 pm

Rick, This is a good debate, I would like to know if you believe there is any difference between cash and digital money transfer. At the level of a credit card purchase or a cash card payment for groceries, I do not see it.

Steve April 7, 2011 at 12:25 am

I’ll jump. There is a huge difference between Specie Money, and fiat money. Credit runs out. Debit cards can only be filled by wages, sales, or trade.

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 12:45 am

See my response to Carol concerning digital money/credit cards.

Carol April 7, 2011 at 12:45 am

Steve -> “I’ll jump. There is a huge difference between Specie Money, and fiat money. Credit runs out. Debit cards can only be filled by wages, sales, or trade.”

Rick J is asking the differnce between cash (FRN) and electronic money (debit cards).

Who has/carries/ or uses silver coins (species money) any longer ? Where would they even get such and if you could who would give real money away?

Also if debit cards can only be filled by wages, sales, or trade how else would one get cash (FRNS) other than illegal drug or black market sales.

What Rick is asking is exactly what I have been asking. He is not talking about species money only CASH (FRNS) or electronic money (DEBIT card). There is no difference.

Rick J April 6, 2011 at 11:44 pm

There were some comments in the responses to the editorial to the effect that stimulation has been tried.
I disagree, based on a 70`s comparison. Economic stimulus, other than low interest rates and giving public money to banks who will not lend it into the economy has not really begun. I remember, in fact wrote down in notes while attending business school, the amounts of increases in departmental spending and they ran into the 50 to 150% range over a couple of years.(US, Britain, etc)
Also, our inflation today is in my opinion mostly cost-push; whereas demand pull takes hold only when inflation really gets going.
Hyperinflation will only start when bonds can no longer be sold to foreigners. Given that Pimco has already gone vigilante, it may not take that long for that event, one no American has lived through, to occur.

Rick J April 6, 2011 at 11:59 pm

Steve; Your 7:14pm posting is fascinating. Can you elaborate on the lien idea. I remember reading with disbelief, that virtually all shareholdings are in fact beneficial shares, meaning that if there should be a benefit in holding shares, we share in those benefits. But ownership, no. That rests in CEDE and Co. which if memory serves, is a division of the NY Fed Reserve bank.
That, in combination with Presidential order statutes can legally facilitate the transfer of all assets to the government. But, might the government give that money to the fed? Who owns the gold if it is still in the basement of NY fed, the people, the guv, or the Fed?

Carol April 7, 2011 at 12:35 am

Rick J -> “But ownership, no. That rests in CEDE and Co. which if memory serves, is a division of the NY Fed Reserve bank.”

You are correct Sir, you own nothing. Your house, your car, your stocks and bonds all belong to another. You are only given “beneficial ownership” of those items to uses as your owners’ see fit and to be taken from you when your owners see fit.

Also CEDE & Co is owned by the DTC (Depository Trust Co). This is the main reason why you will never recieve a “stock certificate” any longer because the DTC holds them all.

Don’t believe me, look up “certificate of title” in a law dictionary, stop paying your property taxes and see how long you get to stay in YOUR house, stop paying the registration on YOUR car and see how long you get to use it. If they can take it from you -> you don’t own it.

Steve April 7, 2011 at 12:42 am

My mind is weaker than it used to be. I cannot quote the page from memory – but; the Banking Act of 1913 creates a General and Paramount Lien against anything discharged with federal reserve notes. It is the phony way the system trys to establish a value on the labor of a Man, as in only a Man owns credit upon the sweat of his brow. Math can place a value on slave labor based upon what is discharged, and held as a debtor in possession. One is a simple debtor in possession under ‘use’, which creates a ‘trust’ with the government/legislature trustee.

The mortgage held ‘fee simple absolute’ is a Declaration of FEE, fife, feod, feud, feudal tenant, peon, serf, slave. In 1832 all lands were held in Allodium, by Allodialists, which is opposite of fee and feudal, like the British scheme. Free Man at Liberty, versus legislatively created subject person under the 14th.

Federal Reserve Notes are Treason, except in federal territory, the district, and for ‘use’ by corporate enfranchisee ’subjects’ created legislatively by the 14th amendment, within my understanding, see; Article I, sec. 10, cls. 1. The masses do not operate under the Constitution, the legislative branch corporately holding sovereignty under Article I, sec. 8, cls. 17, and Article IV, sec. 3, cls. 2. The masses operate under Roman Civil Law, quote; Sandra Day O’Conner

Rick J April 7, 2011 at 12:02 am

Steve; And as above, the 10:03pm….enfranchisees in fee?

Steve April 7, 2011 at 12:31 am

Your mortgage is Fee Simple Absolute, fee, fife, feod, feud, feudal tenant, peon, serf, slave, Blacks Law Dictionary 4th Revised Edition 1968.

Persons under U.S. citizenship are enfranchised to the legislative act, 14th amendment, and a foreign corporation identified at 28 U.S.C. 3002(15), created for the district and territories in A.D. 1872.

One is thus corporate, enfranchised, as an enfranchisee of the federal incorporation.
There are a dozen ways to get there via Roman Civil Law, and the civil privileges granted ’subjects’ created legislatively as ‘person’ inferior to P erson at Article IV of Amendment.

Benjamin April 7, 2011 at 12:19 am

I hate to clutter this already cluttered topic, but given how so many keep having their king Arthur moment at the stone, bringing their same old arguments with which they beleive they will unsheath the sword…

First, why is this so important, anyway? I mean, what is the difference? Well, I’ll tell ya what the difference is…

Hyperinflation would be the “wrath of god”, visited on the oppressors. If you expect HI, you have faith that you don’t need to do anything to extricate yourself and others from debt slavery.

WAKE UP! and smell the coffee. The only way out of this is a successful revolt (which can also mean the political will to hyperinflate, but is by no means the only means). But as it is, half or more are not even armed and the ones who are, haven’t the firepower to contend with the firepower and armor of the oppressors. Supply chains are still surgically grafted to the credit/debt matrix.

We’re all slaves. Whether you like it or you don’t like it, you’ll live and die as one. And that means sad, sad, sad depression. But not all hope is lost…

The more people that understand what is happening and why, the more powerful revolt grows. But even then, with nothing to shoot for, successful revolt will only lead to hyperinflationary death.

This is why I so frequently, every chance I get where it stays on topic, make mention of what makes gold and silver so special. More to the point, what YOUR individual power is, which is to weight the currency to determine the burden or lack thereof under which you live and die. I’ve said it so many times that I know I need not say more.

But as it stands, too many who understand finance and economics are expecting hyperinflation to fight and win the war for them. It will not.

Those who don’t understand any of this, on the other hand, are expecting government to do it (no matter their party/political affiliation and philosophy). Government will not; soon enough, even the left and government employees will gleefuly join in the cutbacks game, knowing that they will be showing conservatives that TWO! can play at that game. And this will only accomplish what the masters wish: depression.

But even if all this was to succeed in thwarting that goal, without wide-spread guiding principles leading the plan… We’ll just wind up richt back in prison, of a different sort. Rather than escape it, we’ll be entombed in the rubble.

So , we all need to realize that the prison will not collapse on it’s own. Many are the slaves who are and will maintain it. Because if we don’t, it’s unceromonious burial. It must be made to collapse by us, yes, but the very root of Liberty also needs to be quickly re-established. Failure to do both is failure to free us or kill us.

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 12:52 am

I agree that anyone who owes too much shouldn’t trust hyperinflation to automatically “emancipate” us. It seems too good to be true, and it is. That is why I continue to dwell on the problem of real estate deflation, since it is big and powerful enough to crush us.

Benjamin April 7, 2011 at 1:17 am

Rick,

I don’t blame you one bit for dwelling on the dwellings. What surprises me is that some, perhaps many still think that walking away from the mortgage would be the same printing the way out. But I deeply suspect that course of action would only result in a reduction in wages/employment or entitlements.

Every dime repaid… Never an exception. To be perfectly honest though, I used to think you crazy for thinking that. But I just didn’t understand the workings of the whole thing, then. There’s simply too much mess and not enough rug to sweep it under.

At least, within the scope of these rules. In the future that I hope, pray, and strive for, it will be currency weight which takes the hit. And with 150 decillion atoms in just the gold supply alone, it can take a lot of hits.

Tom April 7, 2011 at 12:22 am

Q:`Why would the rich and powerful men who control the Federal Reserve, and who would be wiped out by hyperinflation, allow such a thing to happen? `

A: Because rich and powerful men control real assets (land, commodities and factories) and will be even more rich and powerful when bank notes are replaced with commodity money.

Steve April 7, 2011 at 12:44 am

Not when the People stand on their Hind Feet. These bums own nothing. The People just refuse to be Men.

Phil C April 7, 2011 at 12:25 am

For deflation to happen, doesn’t that mean that the Federal Reserve has to stop buying treasury bonds with new freshly printed money?
If that would happen, interest rate would jack up and also the tax revenue from the gvt would plunge even more severily. Since the dollar is based on the capacity of the gvt to repay, and we have revenue falling, interest rate and cost of paying the debt will climb up. This doesn’t look good for the dollar either way (death by ice or death by fire).
But since the Federal Reserve is a political animal that the government allowed to have a monopoly on money at the condition that those bankers supply the money to the government, I see it difficult to imagine the printing press stopping. Congress will come up with one of those idiocy that some idiot have called for – its own fiat money like the greenback of the civil war (I think it is Kucini who came up with this stupidity backed by this fool Denniger) – if the Federal reserve let deflation happen. After a rapid deflation, the barking will start. “You told us in 2008 that if we didn’t approve those bailouts it would be the end of the world, now it is the end of the world because you are not monetising the debt, only valid for bank bailouts!”
One thing sure, this will be ugly.

Tony April 7, 2011 at 12:54 am

Rick is correct. Repeat a 100 times till you get it “Our money is BORROWED into existence” If you don’t understand this point, you will forever be swayed by the nonsense about hyperinflation. We have borrowed money simply means its money we have yet to earn. It is not there. It is credit, a book entry. Those who are claiming hyperinflation are suggesting that the Fed will monetize ALL THE DEBT. It cannot happen because the debt markets (i.e. credit) will collapse. All the attempt to juice the economy is being done with BORROWED MONEY. Think of DEBT as a HOLE in the ground. The first rule of HOLES… when you find yourself in one, STOP DIGGING.

Carol April 7, 2011 at 1:08 am

Phil C with all due respect I am not certain of what Kucini or Denniger have proposed but I do know that going to a monetary system where the money is issued by the government instead of by a private corporation at interest is not only a better solution but very well may be THE solution. Look into the greenbacks, or the currency being issued right before the revolutionary war. Better yet watch this video it will change your mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI&feature=relmfu

Tom April 7, 2011 at 4:05 am

Carol

How would passing control of the currency to the federal government be a solution? Wouldn`t Congress just abuse the power by spending the created currency on their pet projects? Right now, the federal reserve banks check the politicians by charging them interest to borrow. Remove that check and spending would get even more out of control.

Carol April 7, 2011 at 4:20 am

Tom,

the problem is the interest being charged especially since the principle is the only money ever created so there is always this need to inflate the money supply enough to create the money needed to pay back the principle + the interest. If there is no interest due there is no need to pay income taxes (the irs would be abolished). The money would be spent into the economy. I urge you to watch the video as he explains it beautifully

Carol April 7, 2011 at 4:34 am

Tom,

I think my response was not clear that since the money would be spent into the economy (instead of loaned) there would be no debt, Nothing money would need to be paid back to the fed or anyone else so congress is free to spend whatever is required in order to create the money supply that is needed to faciliate trade. Of course there would still need to be some contraint on spending to keep the money supply inline with the needs of trade and population growth but it has been done successfully many times through out history. The four that I can remember was during Ceasars time in Rome, using tally sticks in England (700 years of a great economy resulted from tally stick usage), in US before the revolution (which money system King George halted which is the real reason for the revolution) and the last time was the greenback that Lincoln used. Kennedy was about to reinstate non-debt US issed money when he was killed.

Any time that this system failed was because of conterfetting (sabatoged by enemies). Today we have technology that makes conterfetting much more difficult (or course not impossible).

Watch the video.

Phil C April 7, 2011 at 2:54 pm

Carol, the only difference would be the private bankers would not get their free 6% dividends ( by law) from the federal reserve income from interest rate. The rest all goes back to the treasury. The major difference is that currently, part of that interest payment goes to china et al and the banksters not getting a piece of the pie. The threat of not getting a piece of the pie will make sure they stick with the treasury needs.

ricecake April 7, 2011 at 1:27 am

Great article. But still all things you must have/need cost much more. Merely fortune change hands. Housing get crashed. Mortgage lenders get crashed. But your income get crash from all sides: wage reduction cost of living inflation for sure.

But China is starting away from commoditie trades
http://video.ft.com/v/887459309001/Deals-and-Dealmakers-Chinese-M-A

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 5:48 pm

The smoldering rubble of the endgame you’ve described is where deflationists and hyperinflationists cannot avoid seeing eye-to-eye.

Eugen April 7, 2011 at 1:39 am

Rick is cool in his arguments for deflation. In fact he makes the most sense of all the articles I read on goldseek.

I however can not agree that a heavy defaltion will be chosen without some sort of heavy inflation first. The simple reason is……… The US will not submit itself a slave to Asia and other countries by paying its debt back. I think that would be worse then running the country into the ground with inflation and starting over.

The way my logic tells me ………..inflate enough by order to render the debt minimal to none, then allow for some deflation to run its course. Banks and the gov can ride out the inflation by parking the cash in quality assets then move back to cash. It would seem the least harmful way?

Steve April 7, 2011 at 2:50 am

The hyper-inflation, buying binge took place already, and housing was the base.

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 5:54 pm

We’ve already tried “heavy” inflation. Will The Guvvamint push the effort into hyperdrive? I don’t think so, since it would wreck the financial system. Even the ostensible winners — mortgage debtors who would get to pay off their mortgages with confetti — would learn, the day after, why they’d have been better off if their capitalist taskmasters and rentiers had survived.

Robert April 7, 2011 at 1:51 am

Rick, Are you afraid to answer FOFOA’s recent piece?
If you need time to think about your response I understand but I am interested in your opinion.

Big Gap in Understanding Weakens Deflationist Argument

Steve April 7, 2011 at 3:04 am

Robert, may I venture that claiming a sliding scale value for money is the root of the evil, and the fatal flaw of all that is in your link to the FOFOA ‘piece’.
The debt instruments, federal reserve notes, are valueless promises of enfranchisement via ‘use’, and under Roman Civil Law. The theory that fraud begets logic is logically incompetent. The fed can print all it wants and not accomplish anything – just look at the trillions thrown at the stock market, to get an extreme low volume climb based upon banks and corporations. Everyone is pushing on a string, until wages begin to skyrocket allowing borrowing of what is printed.

It is sort of like this. Chief Justice John Marshal went to Georgia to engage in a debate. The contestant was asked the first question. Do you believe in an immutable Law. The contestant said no. Marshal said the debate is won, and you have lost. Because without a moral base, you will change the rules and change the rules until all is lost.

FOFOA is nothing but a contestant that lost with the first words he spoke, and has become nothing more than a TAR BABY of blind intellect and IQ. From my perspective – Do not respond to the TAR BABY Rick. He will not learn, and he will not play by the rules, and he will not change from his ways.

Rick Ackerman April 7, 2011 at 5:59 pm

Afraid? Nah. Just that I’ve been spending way too much time at my desk and didn’t feel like jumping into another snakepit. I’m sure I’ll have my defenders at FOFOA.

FYI, I may have a chance to step in the ring with Lira. More on that as details develop.

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